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Repeat After Me: Profit is NOT Satanic

Don't you love it when someone tries to argue for one thing by distracting your attention to another? Consider the claims of Barclay's CEO, John Varley. I mean, really now, while there may be a few diehards who would make the rather stark claim that "profit is satanic," there are not many, statistically speaking.

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The issue is rarely profit per se, but rather the conditions under which it is earned, the fundamental justice of the profit-taking, and the inequities created by injudicious profit-taking. So, while one would be inclined to agree that profit-taking per se is not satanic, one can imagine numerous scenarios in which a particular case of profit taken is, well, if not satanic, at least demonic.

You have to love Varley's argument, steeped as it is in scripture. Consider this gem:

Is Christianity and banking compatible? Yes ... And is Christianity and fair reward compatible? Yes.

Well, there you go! That settles that. Oh, wait

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by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 9:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 9:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 5:32pm

Now that is some clever exegesis! If one looks carefully at the teachings of Jesus (and scripture more broadly), what one finds is a consistent call to overcome the natural human tendency toward self-centeredness by elevating the interests of others above our own interests. The minimal standard is to love our others as ourselves.

He might have been more accurate to say, "The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of the other's self-interest." The individual is encouraged by the same injunction to sacrifice his own self-interest for the sake of others. His point is that Jesus' words forbid government from doing this forcibly.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 5:32pm

Now that is some clever exegesis! If one looks carefully at the teachings of Jesus (and scripture more broadly), what one finds is a consistent call to overcome the natural human tendency toward self-centeredness by elevating the interests of others above our own interests. The minimal standard is to love our others as ourselves.

He might have been more accurate to say, "The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of the other's self-interest." The individual is encouraged by the same injunction to sacrifice his own self-interest for the sake of others. His point is that Jesus' words forbid government from doing this forcibly.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 11:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Ngchen

11-06-2009 @ 6:36pm

Actually, Jesus's statement there does not reference government. As such, I have a hard time believing that Jesus meant that particular statement to refer to government action at all, since government does not enter the picture.

by: Ngchen

11-06-2009 @ 6:36pm

Actually, Jesus's statement there does not reference government. As such, I have a hard time believing that Jesus meant that particular statement to refer to government action at all, since government does not enter the picture.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 7:50pm

Political ideologies are very difficult to draw from Scripture. But that conclusion is, I think, just as valid as its opposite - that because of the same injunction government should pro-actively help the poor.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 7:50pm

Political ideologies are very difficult to draw from Scripture. But that conclusion is, I think, just as valid as its opposite - that because of the same injunction government should pro-actively help the poor.

by: burningheretic

11-07-2009 @ 1:34am

Christ did not have a vote in the Roman Empire. I do. As such, I vote my social conscious and support help for the poor. THIS might be self-interest. Helping others out of poverty is self-interest for the common community (government) and for the individual. When people are not overwhelmed by worry of finding food, clothing, and shelter, they can contribute to the common good. They may not, but chances are higher if they are not suffering from poverty.
But I think, more to the point is the incredible hubris of these 'titans' of finance trying to justify their obscene pay packages. There is nothing inherently Godly about capitalism. If fact, there is much evil that capitalism allows. Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.
One only has to think of child labor, debtors' prisons, unsafe work places, and the Buffalo River in Cleveland on fire. Those are just a few of the favorite things of unfettered capitalism.
A Christian can not stand for those. Capitalism may be necessary, but do not preach to me about 'Greed being good'. It is no such thing.

by: Jesdisciple

11-07-2009 @ 1:53am

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

There is nothing inherently godly nor demonic about any political ideology. They just work differently, perhaps some better than others.

by: burningheretic

11-07-2009 @ 1:34am

Christ did not have a vote in the Roman Empire. I do. As such, I vote my social conscious and support help for the poor. THIS might be self-interest. Helping others out of poverty is self-interest for the common community (government) and for the individual. When people are not overwhelmed by worry of finding food, clothing, and shelter, they can contribute to the common good. They may not, but chances are higher if they are not suffering from poverty.
But I think, more to the point is the incredible hubris of these 'titans' of finance trying to justify their obscene pay packages. There is nothing inherently Godly about capitalism. If fact, there is much evil that capitalism allows. Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.
One only has to think of child labor, debtors' prisons, unsafe work places, and the Buffalo River in Cleveland on fire. Those are just a few of the favorite things of unfettered capitalism.
A Christian can not stand for those. Capitalism may be necessary, but do not preach to me about 'Greed being good'. It is no such thing.

by: Jesdisciple

11-07-2009 @ 1:53am

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

There is nothing inherently godly nor demonic about any political ideology. They just work differently, perhaps some better than others.

by: ford49

11-07-2009 @ 5:05am

I don't know if I agree with your first line...a brief review of world political history of the last 70 years leaves me spiritually quessy. Also, political ideology I think is best when not substituted for theology.

by: ford49

11-07-2009 @ 5:05am

I don't know if I agree with your first line...a brief review of world political history of the last 70 years leaves me spiritually quessy. Also, political ideology I think is best when not substituted for theology.

by: xfree9

11-09-2009 @ 11:59am

Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.

This is simply not true in an actual free market, which we have nothing of the sort. We have corporatism, where government guarantees banks and large corporations its cooperation in their business, protecting them from competition, and producing a "moral hazard" by printing money whenever the most politically well-connected banks are in dire need after risking the people's money. What you describe is indeed horrible, deplorable, and evil. But it is not capitalism.

Check out this piece by another believer: http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

He affirms that greed is not good, but he also combats the common myth that capitalism yields what you said it yields.

You are rightly pointing out injustices, but you are not accurately pointing out the source. Capitalism doesn't "produce" anything; it is merely the manifestation of people voluntarily choosing to engage in consentual exchange. There's nothing wrong or unethical about that.

by: xfree9

11-09-2009 @ 11:59am

Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.

This is simply not true in an actual free market, which we have nothing of the sort. We have corporatism, where government guarantees banks and large corporations its cooperation in their business, protecting them from competition, and producing a "moral hazard" by printing money whenever the most politically well-connected banks are in dire need after risking the people's money. What you describe is indeed horrible, deplorable, and evil. But it is not capitalism.

Check out this piece by another believer: http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

He affirms that greed is not good, but he also combats the common myth that capitalism yields what you said it yields.

You are rightly pointing out injustices, but you are not accurately pointing out the source. Capitalism doesn't "produce" anything; it is merely the manifestation of people voluntarily choosing to engage in consentual exchange. There's nothing wrong or unethical about that.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 11:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

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by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 5:32pm

Now that is some clever exegesis! If one looks carefully at the teachings of Jesus (and scripture more broadly), what one finds is a consistent call to overcome the natural human tendency toward self-centeredness by elevating the interests of others above our own interests. The minimal standard is to love our others as ourselves.

He might have been more accurate to say, "The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of the other's self-interest." The individual is encouraged by the same injunction to sacrifice his own self-interest for the sake of others. His point is that Jesus' words forbid government from doing this forcibly.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 5:32pm

Now that is some clever exegesis! If one looks carefully at the teachings of Jesus (and scripture more broadly), what one finds is a consistent call to overcome the natural human tendency toward self-centeredness by elevating the interests of others above our own interests. The minimal standard is to love our others as ourselves.

He might have been more accurate to say, "The injunction of Jesus to love others as ourselves is an endorsement of the other's self-interest." The individual is encouraged by the same injunction to sacrifice his own self-interest for the sake of others. His point is that Jesus' words forbid government from doing this forcibly.

by: Ngchen

11-06-2009 @ 6:36pm

Actually, Jesus's statement there does not reference government. As such, I have a hard time believing that Jesus meant that particular statement to refer to government action at all, since government does not enter the picture.

by: Ngchen

11-06-2009 @ 6:36pm

Actually, Jesus's statement there does not reference government. As such, I have a hard time believing that Jesus meant that particular statement to refer to government action at all, since government does not enter the picture.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 7:50pm

Political ideologies are very difficult to draw from Scripture. But that conclusion is, I think, just as valid as its opposite - that because of the same injunction government should pro-actively help the poor.

by: Jesdisciple

11-06-2009 @ 7:50pm

Political ideologies are very difficult to draw from Scripture. But that conclusion is, I think, just as valid as its opposite - that because of the same injunction government should pro-actively help the poor.

by: burningheretic

11-07-2009 @ 1:34am

Christ did not have a vote in the Roman Empire. I do. As such, I vote my social conscious and support help for the poor. THIS might be self-interest. Helping others out of poverty is self-interest for the common community (government) and for the individual. When people are not overwhelmed by worry of finding food, clothing, and shelter, they can contribute to the common good. They may not, but chances are higher if they are not suffering from poverty.
But I think, more to the point is the incredible hubris of these 'titans' of finance trying to justify their obscene pay packages. There is nothing inherently Godly about capitalism. If fact, there is much evil that capitalism allows. Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.
One only has to think of child labor, debtors' prisons, unsafe work places, and the Buffalo River in Cleveland on fire. Those are just a few of the favorite things of unfettered capitalism.
A Christian can not stand for those. Capitalism may be necessary, but do not preach to me about 'Greed being good'. It is no such thing.

by: burningheretic

11-07-2009 @ 1:34am

Christ did not have a vote in the Roman Empire. I do. As such, I vote my social conscious and support help for the poor. THIS might be self-interest. Helping others out of poverty is self-interest for the common community (government) and for the individual. When people are not overwhelmed by worry of finding food, clothing, and shelter, they can contribute to the common good. They may not, but chances are higher if they are not suffering from poverty.
But I think, more to the point is the incredible hubris of these 'titans' of finance trying to justify their obscene pay packages. There is nothing inherently Godly about capitalism. If fact, there is much evil that capitalism allows. Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.
One only has to think of child labor, debtors' prisons, unsafe work places, and the Buffalo River in Cleveland on fire. Those are just a few of the favorite things of unfettered capitalism.
A Christian can not stand for those. Capitalism may be necessary, but do not preach to me about 'Greed being good'. It is no such thing.

by: Jesdisciple

11-07-2009 @ 1:53am

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

There is nothing inherently godly nor demonic about any political ideology. They just work differently, perhaps some better than others.

by: Jesdisciple

11-07-2009 @ 1:53am

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

There is nothing inherently godly nor demonic about any political ideology. They just work differently, perhaps some better than others.

by: ford49

11-07-2009 @ 5:05am

I don't know if I agree with your first line...a brief review of world political history of the last 70 years leaves me spiritually quessy. Also, political ideology I think is best when not substituted for theology.

by: ford49

11-07-2009 @ 5:05am

I don't know if I agree with your first line...a brief review of world political history of the last 70 years leaves me spiritually quessy. Also, political ideology I think is best when not substituted for theology.

by: xfree9

11-09-2009 @ 11:59am

Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.

This is simply not true in an actual free market, which we have nothing of the sort. We have corporatism, where government guarantees banks and large corporations its cooperation in their business, protecting them from competition, and producing a "moral hazard" by printing money whenever the most politically well-connected banks are in dire need after risking the people's money. What you describe is indeed horrible, deplorable, and evil. But it is not capitalism.

Check out this piece by another believer: http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

He affirms that greed is not good, but he also combats the common myth that capitalism yields what you said it yields.

You are rightly pointing out injustices, but you are not accurately pointing out the source. Capitalism doesn't "produce" anything; it is merely the manifestation of people voluntarily choosing to engage in consentual exchange. There's nothing wrong or unethical about that.

by: xfree9

11-09-2009 @ 11:59am

Unfettered, unregulated capitalism encourages the individual, or corporation to seek maximum advantage, necessarily at the expense of others.

This is simply not true in an actual free market, which we have nothing of the sort. We have corporatism, where government guarantees banks and large corporations its cooperation in their business, protecting them from competition, and producing a "moral hazard" by printing money whenever the most politically well-connected banks are in dire need after risking the people's money. What you describe is indeed horrible, deplorable, and evil. But it is not capitalism.

Check out this piece by another believer: http://www.american.com/archive/2009/october/gr...

He affirms that greed is not good, but he also combats the common myth that capitalism yields what you said it yields.

You are rightly pointing out injustices, but you are not accurately pointing out the source. Capitalism doesn't "produce" anything; it is merely the manifestation of people voluntarily choosing to engage in consentual exchange. There's nothing wrong or unethical about that.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 9:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 9:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 11:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.

by: Palosaari

12-19-2009 @ 11:24pm

Huh. I agree with the author's points, and yet have the feeling that the heavy sarcasm of this article is not worthy of typical Sojourners' fare, and probably doesn't even fit in Sojourners' Commentary Guidelines.