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Freedom from Fear in the Health-Care Debate

There comes a moment when we can say a word or speak a concept so often that it loses meaning and simply becomes sound. The concept becomes exhausted, thin, one-dimensional. Such was the case with the word and the concept of freedom during the debate in the House of Representatives on final passage of the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

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The opponents kept saying that health-care legislation would take away our freedoms and lead to a "government takeover" of health care in the United States. Some dressed this argument in patriotism and in pathos. They sounded an alarm to be wary of a behemoth of federal government, a beast standing in our doctor's doorway. They counted the number of times the word "shall" appeared in the legislation, and reminded us of the coercive power of the state to take us to jail if we break the law. I find these arguments specious.

Freedom is complicated. It is more than the ability to do what we want without interference. It exists in both positive and negative ways. The late political philosopher Isaiah Berlin writing in an essay "Two Concepts of Liberty" defines negative freedom as non-interference and positive freedom as the source of interference that compels us to do this or that. As long as individuals live in society, freedom is not absolute. The common good puts limits on individual freedom. These boundaries and requirements do not mean that custom or law has usurped our freedom.

Berlin says: "You lack political liberty or freedom only if you are prevented from attaining a goal by human beings." The health-care legislation requires citizens to buy health insurance. If we do not, we can be fined. My question is: what goal does such a mandate prevent us from attaining? Berlin references Jean-Jacques Rousseau and the concept of the equality of sacrifice.

When we all buy health insurance, we get a tangible benefit in return. We lose the freedom not to buy health insurance, but we gain the benefit of freedom from denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions. We cooperate with our fellow citizens to help pay for health care for all. If we are able to choose not to buy insurance, our fellow citizens would have to pay the cost for our care when we need it. Be assured; we will all need care at some point.

Berlin also reminds us that to instead offer freedom to people who need food, clothing, shelter and health care "is to mock their condition." People need their health in order to make use of freedom. The positive freedom is the freedom that comes not through coercion, but from a willingness to fit our freedom into a greater good and to understand why we ought to do it.

In 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt articulated four freedoms: freedom of speech and expression; freedom of religion; freedom from want, meaning "a healthy peacetime life"; and freedom from fear. God has not given us the spirit of fear. We ought not to fear our own government. In a republic, our vote is a check on the power of government. The paradox is by giving up a portion of our freedom, we will gain greater freedom.

Dr. Valerie Elverton Dixon is an independent scholar who publishes lectures and essays at JustPeaceTheory.com. She received her Ph.D. in religion and society from Temple University and taught Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary and Andover Newton Theological School.

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by: letjusticerolldown

11-11-2009 @ 2:56pm

Say you take two of the most costly and advancing sectors of the medical economy: pharmaceuticals and advanced technologies: what is the tweeking you would do that would decrease regulation and free the reigns on Pfizer, Abbott, Merck, Medtronics, and Boston Scientific to deliver more advance at lower cost for all persons?

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 3:34pm

I would first ask two questions: why is it costly? Is it because of regulation and costly procedural limitation? Is it because of protectionism?

In other words, why is the list you wrote only so long? Why aren't more companies being started and investing in capital resources to provide a less expensive solution. Protectionism plays a large role in that; those companies have no natural incentive to compete for our dollars at lower costs because most of us don't have to worry about the costs... when we don't worry about the costs, we are charged whatever they can get away with.

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 3:07pm

Good point. That ain't gonna happen.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 3:32pm

The free market is amoral. But under whose morals should we make decisions? Yours? Mine? What happens if immoral folks start dictating how businesses should run? Men are not angels, no matter how great some of us may be. Barack Obama may have the greatest of intentions and abilities, but he will one day not be President. Then what?

What isn't driven by profit? You cannot separate profit from stewardship because profit is an indicator that scarce resources are being used wisely. That is an ethical and moral outcome of profit-driven business. It does not facilitate greed; it channels it into productive uses rather than abusive ones.

In a truly free market, in health insurance and health care at least, it is a race to serve other people at the lowest possible cost. Retail companies drop prices to compete because they all want our money (greed); yet they have to appeal to our willingness to choose them as opposed to another provider/producer. Prices fall. This is economics 101. But in health care, because we're stuck in a paradigm of insurance and having other people pay for it, costs have risen because there is no incentive for health care providers to compete for our hard-earned income. While this is of course a moral issue, you still must provide support for why your outcome and method of achieving that outcome are the moral solution. I would contend for various reasons that a single-payer system or insurance-based system is immoral because it wastes resources, which is ultimately harmful to the environment and the economy.

by: xfree9

11-13-2009 @ 4:35pm

...which is exactly the problem with our current "system," whatever you wanna call it. Corporatocracy, maybe?

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 3:51pm

Retail companies drop prices to compete because they all want our money (greed); yet they have to appeal to our willingness to choose them as opposed to another provider/producer. Prices fall. This is economics 101.

But in all this you ignore the reality of speculation, which has driven our economy especially since the late-1980s; health-care insurance costs have risen not because of lack of competition but because the focus is on profit, not services. That's the same problem with "Big Pharma," which also seeks primarily the largest possible payoff to satisfy shareholders regardless of product. Take Wall Street out of the equation and things might change.

by: BlueDeacon

11-13-2009 @ 3:50pm

...the things you described are not a failure of markets, but a failure of the state government to protect the private property of those around the coal plants and rivers.

You forget one thing: The coal companies are the ones that basically put/keep the politicians in office. The message is "If you don't play ball with us, we'll find someone who will" -- and our political system is actually built to allow that.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 4:00pm

Speculation has its proper function in a market economy, and is not as bad as you might believe. But I agree: take out Wall Street, and things will change drastically. But again, health insurance companies have no competition, therefore no incentive to lower costs like in every other industry (other than education).

by: xfree9

11-12-2009 @ 10:51pm

Yep, you're right on that [last part].

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 3:34pm

I would first ask two questions: why is it costly? Is it because of regulation and costly procedural limitation? Is it because of protectionism?

In other words, why is the list you wrote only so long? Why aren't more companies being started and investing in capital resources to provide a less expensive solution. Protectionism plays a large role in that; those companies have no natural incentive to compete for our dollars at lower costs because most of us don't have to worry about the costs... when we don't worry about the costs, we are charged whatever they can get away with.

by: squeaky

11-11-2009 @ 4:10pm

You didn't address my contention that truly market-based health care would eliminate care for the most expensive cases. The free market would see care for the unhealthy among us as a "waste of resources".

It is ironic that you put no faith in humans to make the moral choice when it comes to government. But somehow those same people will magically make the moral choice when it comes to the free market. How does that work?

Put a bunch of fleece sweaters on a rack. Advertise the $5 shirt as being made in a sweat shop in Vietnam by 10 year old girls. Advertise the $80 shirt as being made in a US factory by people paid union wages with full health benefits. Which do you think people will buy? How many will make the moral choice over the economic choice?

People make this moral choice every day, most not even knowing they have made the moral choice. Would it make a difference if they did? And if it would make a difference--if you have that much faith in human morality, why is there then no faith in the morality of those who run our government who are elected by those same moral people?

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 10:47pm

Uh -- not quite. If that were the case they would have never been able to
sell their program to libertarians in the 1980s; they understood the times and
played the game accordingly. It was GWB who made many libertarians realize
that they had been had.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 3:32pm

The free market is amoral. But under whose morals should we make decisions? Yours? Mine? What happens if immoral folks start dictating how businesses should run? Men are not angels, no matter how great some of us may be. Barack Obama may have the greatest of intentions and abilities, but he will one day not be President. Then what?

What isn't driven by profit? You cannot separate profit from stewardship because profit is an indicator that scarce resources are being used wisely. That is an ethical and moral outcome of profit-driven business. It does not facilitate greed; it channels it into productive uses rather than abusive ones.

In a truly free market, in health insurance and health care at least, it is a race to serve other people at the lowest possible cost. Retail companies drop prices to compete because they all want our money (greed); yet they have to appeal to our willingness to choose them as opposed to another provider/producer. Prices fall. This is economics 101. But in health care, because we're stuck in a paradigm of insurance and having other people pay for it, costs have risen because there is no incentive for health care providers to compete for our hard-earned income. While this is of course a moral issue, you still must provide support for why your outcome and method of achieving that outcome are the moral solution. I would contend for various reasons that a single-payer system or insurance-based system is immoral because it wastes resources, which is ultimately harmful to the environment and the economy.

by: squeaky

11-12-2009 @ 7:56pm

I'm responding to your post above here because it isn't letting me respond there.

No, it wasn't a waste of time at all. I enjoyed the discussion, and usually enjoy the discussions I get into on Sojo...but...I've identified it as a tremendous time sink that I can't afford. What happened was I was out during the summer, and just haven't gotten back into it...and now realize it is best I don't.

Honestly, the frequency with which many of us post on this site, it is a wonder that any of us get anything done! Small wonder that many businesses have blocks to internet access!

Cheers and blessings!

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 5:16pm

But again, health insurance companies have no competition, ...

Nonsense -- my immediate past employer offered plans from three different companies, and that doesn't even include the HMO that's run by the largest local hospital chain. However, today you can get none of them on the cheap.

by: xfree9

11-12-2009 @ 7:53pm

Did you just admit conservatives "know economics"? Are you running a fever? j/k

Actually, "knowing economics" is different from knowing how to play the corporatism game when you have legislative power. Most libertarians are against the latter.

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 3:51pm

Retail companies drop prices to compete because they all want our money (greed); yet they have to appeal to our willingness to choose them as opposed to another provider/producer. Prices fall. This is economics 101.

But in all this you ignore the reality of speculation, which has driven our economy especially since the late-1980s; health-care insurance costs have risen not because of lack of competition but because the focus is on profit, not services. That's the same problem with "Big Pharma," which also seeks primarily the largest possible payoff to satisfy shareholders regardless of product. Take Wall Street out of the equation and things might change.

by: xfree9

11-12-2009 @ 7:05pm

I understand. My RSS reader currently has 89 unread items... and I carry it around in my pocket, so it's very time-consuming to have "unread items." I hope the discussion wasn't a waste of time for you, though. It was not for me.

Blessings!

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 6:34pm

Thank you.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 4:00pm

Speculation has its proper function in a market economy, and is not as bad as you might believe. But I agree: take out Wall Street, and things will change drastically. But again, health insurance companies have no competition, therefore no incentive to lower costs like in every other industry (other than education).

by: squeaky

11-11-2009 @ 6:25pm

" no incentive to lower costs"

And also no incentive to insure those who would be the biggest drain on the resources.

And isn't one of the reasons cited for single-payer to provide that competition?

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 6:32pm

If you mean the Constitution, it is being bent in both directions IMO.

No, I don't mean the Constitution (which, BTW, does not by definition cover each and every circumstance).

Welfare is the same thing but on a smaller scale. Government takes some of the money and gives it to some of the people, with the ultimate goal of bringing the classes closer together. We grow closer to pure socialism about every time the Democrats pass a bill.

That's the kind of garbage that doesn't help the current political discourse. For openers, we wouldn't have had "welfare" in the first place had the wealthy folks with means not moved out of urban areas (in the process taking jobs and social resources with them) and left those of lesser means to fend for themselves beginning in the 1950s. And guess what? They actually did that on the government's dime! Even today, most "pork" that goes through Congress flows toward wealthier areas as "grants" which dwarf welfare payments. (As a former newspaper reporter who attended municipal meetings, I personally witnessed that numerous times.)

by: squeaky

11-11-2009 @ 4:10pm

You didn't address my contention that truly market-based health care would eliminate care for the most expensive cases. The free market would see care for the unhealthy among us as a "waste of resources".

It is ironic that you put no faith in humans to make the moral choice when it comes to government. But somehow those same people will magically make the moral choice when it comes to the free market. How does that work?

Put a bunch of fleece sweaters on a rack. Advertise the $5 shirt as being made in a sweat shop in Vietnam by 10 year old girls. Advertise the $80 shirt as being made in a US factory by people paid union wages with full health benefits. Which do you think people will buy? How many will make the moral choice over the economic choice?

People make this moral choice every day, most not even knowing they have made the moral choice. Would it make a difference if they did? And if it would make a difference--if you have that much faith in human morality, why is there then no faith in the morality of those who run our government who are elected by those same moral people?

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 6:22pm

Well, the gospel is about living differently and not cooperating with the world's way of thinking. The trouble is that too often we end up swimming with the current because, frankly, we have "all this and Jesus too."

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 6:21pm

Conservatives are because they don't understand economics very well.

Well, actually they do. Modern conservatives IME have always held the acquisition of power as a goal, so they have no compunction about getting as much as possible; they used libertarian economics only as a means to that end.

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 5:16pm

But again, health insurance companies have no competition, ...

Nonsense -- my immediate past employer offered plans from three different companies, and that doesn't even include the HMO that's run by the largest local hospital chain. However, today you can get none of them on the cheap.

by: squeaky

11-12-2009 @ 4:50pm

Hey--didn't you tell me in an earlier post that monopolies weren't necessarily bad things?

by: squeaky

11-12-2009 @ 2:45pm

Much of what you argue for has been proposed by those who are advocating health care reform. Or at least that is what I have been hearing in the sane discussions I have heard about health care.

Unfortunately, sane discussion has been drowned out by all the rhetoric about "death panels" and "socialism". Those advocating change have been forced to waste time trying to combat lies and rumors rather than hammer out real solutions.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion and the invite. Perhaps I'll stop by, although I have been curtailing my blog activity this year in favor of getting more work done. This is the longest discussion I have had with anyone for several months now! Cheers.

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 8:13pm

I would first ask two questions: why is it costly? Is it because of regulation and costly procedural limitation? Is it because of protectionism?

Neither. It's out-and-out greed.

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 1:43pm

And going back a bit, you're right - government is all over my plate. I still don't want it there.

You have no choice in the matter because, as long as people try to cut corners to save/make a few bucks by selling tainted food/beverages, there will be regulation. You may remember that Chi-Chi's went bankrupt due to fatal food poisoning at one restaurant (in my area), and it was traced back to scallions grown at at a farm in Mexico that was using human fecal matter as fertilizer.

by: squeaky

11-11-2009 @ 6:25pm

" no incentive to lower costs"

And also no incentive to insure those who would be the biggest drain on the resources.

And isn't one of the reasons cited for single-payer to provide that competition?

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:15pm

Totally wrong. Besides, it simply begs the question: what allowed and permitted this greed? Was it because they could get away with charging whatever because there was no competition? Blaming it on greed is not an answer, because greed is a symptom of a larger problem in economics. People are permitted to be greedy when systems are in place that allow them to be so.

by: xfree9

11-12-2009 @ 11:41am

For any market to work, and for greed to be channeled, as I stated, rule of law must exist. I'm very familiar with WV and the coal industry, and the things you described are not a failure of markets, but a failure of the state government to protect the private property of those around the coal plants and rivers. So because there were/are no lawful protections of citizens (again, a gov't failure), it was profitable for companies to harmfully aggress against their neighbors.

My assumption in what you stated was the presence of rule of law, where fraud, harm, and theft are protected against or punished when committed.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:17pm

three is not competition when there are hundreds of companies in the US. Yet our state (PA) limits the number of insurance companies allowed to operate within its borders. Imagine only having only three companies making cars, or three companies making appliances, or three companies making computers.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-12-2009 @ 5:28am

You remove government from under the sphere of God's reign

No, I don't remove it; I say Scripture doesn't put it there.

And going back a bit, you're right - government is all over my plate. I still don't want it there.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:16pm

Single-payer is a monopoly. Competition lowers costs.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-12-2009 @ 3:00am

Ironically, I was trying to solve both sides of the problem stated above when you said I was contradicting myself.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 9:08pm

This is a great report about the benefits of healthcare when guarantees are made by the government. There's also a paragraph that mentions how companies already have to compete by lowering prices because insurance doesn't allow them to charge what they want. And, to my knowledge, this link is not a conservative/libertarian source.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-12-2009 @ 2:41am

By grace through faith. Grace doesn't reach those without faith. Some say those who grace doesn't reach have no faith (Calvinism), but for our discussion it's the same thing. The unfaithful Jews were lost despite being Jews.

God's kingdom is inherently a collective of people, not a collection of isolated quanta. Only when we act that way are we responding to God, and not to our individual need for righteousness, which we as individuals can never attain.

I agree; anyone who refuses to belong to and participate in a church is not obeying God.

by: Anothernonymous

11-12-2009 @ 2:28am

No, they were saved by God's grace, the same way we are saved today. They weren't saved *for* anything, either individually or otherwise. God saved them. That's the Gospel, and it cuts across the heart of our pretensions to individual righteousness, nailing them to the cross. God's kingdom is inherently a collective of people, not a collection of isolated quanta. Only when we act that way are we responding to God, and not to our individual need for righteousness, which we as individuals can never attain.

by: BlueDeacon

11-11-2009 @ 8:13pm

I would first ask two questions: why is it costly? Is it because of regulation and costly procedural limitation? Is it because of protectionism?

Neither. It's out-and-out greed.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-12-2009 @ 1:59am

What it does say is that salvation was bestowed collectively on a people

They were not saved for being Jews; they were saved for being faithful to God, as individuals, just like the Gentiles. An unfaithful Jew is not truly a Jew.

If that's not what you meant, I dunno what you did.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:15pm

Totally wrong. Besides, it simply begs the question: what allowed and permitted this greed? Was it because they could get away with charging whatever because there was no competition? Blaming it on greed is not an answer, because greed is a symptom of a larger problem in economics. People are permitted to be greedy when systems are in place that allow them to be so.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:17pm

three is not competition when there are hundreds of companies in the US. Yet our state (PA) limits the number of insurance companies allowed to operate within its borders. Imagine only having only three companies making cars, or three companies making appliances, or three companies making computers.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 8:16pm

Single-payer is a monopoly. Competition lowers costs.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 9:08pm

This is a great report about the benefits of healthcare when guarantees are made by the government. There's also a paragraph that mentions how companies already have to compete by lowering prices because insurance doesn't allow them to charge what they want. And, to my knowledge, this link is not a conservative/libertarian source.

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 12:26am

Well, I live in the same state, and you may recall that there is an insurance commission. For good reason, I would think.

by: BlueDeacon

11-12-2009 @ 12:26am

Well, I live in the same state, and you may recall that there is an insurance commission. For good reason, I would think.

by: xfree9

11-13-2009 @ 4:35pm

...which is exactly the problem with our current "system," whatever you wanna call it. Corporatocracy, maybe?

by: BlueDeacon

11-13-2009 @ 3:50pm

...the things you described are not a failure of markets, but a failure of the state government to protect the private property of those around the coal plants and rivers.

You forget one thing: The coal companies are the ones that basically put/keep the politicians in office. The message is "If you don't play ball with us, we'll find someone who will" -- and our political system is actually built to allow that.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: Lord_Voldemort

11-10-2009 @ 8:02pm

"Berlin says: 'You lack political liberty or freedom only if you are prevented from attaining a goal by human beings.' The health-care legislation requires citizens to buy health insurance. If we do not, we can be fined. My question is: what goal does such a mandate prevent us from attaining?"

There are a wide range of goals that could be thwarted by this mandate: homes not bought, businesses not started, educations delayed for lack of tuition, all because the government says you must buy this particular thing before you buy anything else.

"When we all buy health insurance, we get a tangible benefit in return. We lose the freedom not to buy health insurance, but we gain the benefit of freedom from denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions."

So now you acknowledge that we lose some sort of freedom, but that we gain an ironclad entitlement to care. But that depends on the quality of the insurance purchased, which will be driven, to no small amount, by the specifics of the "government option". I'm still very unclear as to how the government option makes financial pressures go away. Insurers will still be motivated to save money, and care costs money.

"Berlin also reminds us that to instead offer freedom to people who need food, clothing, shelter and health care 'is to mock their condition.'

Yes, and to force healthy people who want to go to school, build a home, start a business, etc, to buy health insurance they don't necessarily need is also to mock their condition.

"God has not given us the spirit of fear. We ought not to fear our own government."

I don't fear my government any more than I fear the waitress at my favorite restaurant, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hand over my health care decisions to her. Even if we ignore the "tired, thin, one-dimensional" freedom question, there's still the little matter of whether or not the government that has made a hash of flu vaccine has the competence to run a health insurance program.

"The paradox is by giving up a portion of our freedom, we will gain greater freedom."

I have yet to hear what that "greater freedom" is. Freedom from disease? Hardly. Freedom from not having access to health care? I already have access, as do the vast majority of Americans.

Ms. Dixon ignores the price tag while the "good" I'm supposed to buy consists largely of hot air. Opposition to this mandatory "deal" she dismisses as "fear". Sorry, if I'm going to trade freedoms, I want something valuable in return. That's not fear, or even an overattachment to abstract freedom. It's just not wanting to get ripped off.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

11-10-2009 @ 8:02pm

"Berlin says: 'You lack political liberty or freedom only if you are prevented from attaining a goal by human beings.' The health-care legislation requires citizens to buy health insurance. If we do not, we can be fined. My question is: what goal does such a mandate prevent us from attaining?"

There are a wide range of goals that could be thwarted by this mandate: homes not bought, businesses not started, educations delayed for lack of tuition, all because the government says you must buy this particular thing before you buy anything else.

"When we all buy health insurance, we get a tangible benefit in return. We lose the freedom not to buy health insurance, but we gain the benefit of freedom from denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions."

So now you acknowledge that we lose some sort of freedom, but that we gain an ironclad entitlement to care. But that depends on the quality of the insurance purchased, which will be driven, to no small amount, by the specifics of the "government option". I'm still very unclear as to how the government option makes financial pressures go away. Insurers will still be motivated to save money, and care costs money.

"Berlin also reminds us that to instead offer freedom to people who need food, clothing, shelter and health care 'is to mock their condition.'

Yes, and to force healthy people who want to go to school, build a home, start a business, etc, to buy health insurance they don't necessarily need is also to mock their condition.

"God has not given us the spirit of fear. We ought not to fear our own government."

I don't fear my government any more than I fear the waitress at my favorite restaurant, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hand over my health care decisions to her. Even if we ignore the "tired, thin, one-dimensional" freedom question, there's still the little matter of whether or not the government that has made a hash of flu vaccine has the competence to run a health insurance program.

"The paradox is by giving up a portion of our freedom, we will gain greater freedom."

I have yet to hear what that "greater freedom" is. Freedom from disease? Hardly. Freedom from not having access to health care? I already have access, as do the vast majority of Americans.

Ms. Dixon ignores the price tag while the "good" I'm supposed to buy consists largely of hot air. Opposition to this mandatory "deal" she dismisses as "fear". Sorry, if I'm going to trade freedoms, I want something valuable in return. That's not fear, or even an overattachment to abstract freedom. It's just not wanting to get ripped off.

LV

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 8:35pm

In other words, there is a greater good than "freedom" -- it's called justice.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 8:35pm

In other words, there is a greater good than "freedom" -- it's called justice.

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 8:35pm

Government is to be feared more than corporations, certainly. Just like a rottweiler with an electric collar is less dangerous than one without. Or would you seriously not fear a rottweiler after being mauled by one?

You also forget the economic impact of socialism. Costs go up and effort goes down. It happened in the USSR, and socialist Europe will need to maintain good health a while more before I'll trust their system. (A potential project would be to define good health and see if they have it now.)

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 8:35pm

Government is to be feared more than corporations, certainly. Just like a rottweiler with an electric collar is less dangerous than one without. Or would you seriously not fear a rottweiler after being mauled by one?

You also forget the economic impact of socialism. Costs go up and effort goes down. It happened in the USSR, and socialist Europe will need to maintain good health a while more before I'll trust their system. (A potential project would be to define good health and see if they have it now.)

by: RachelK

11-10-2009 @ 8:39pm

Dr. Dixon,
Thank you for your generous, caring, careful thought and your eloquent description of the balance that is necessary for society to thrive. I am moved to hope again for a world in which we are not dogs reduced to eating dogs, but can envision God's household doing God's will on earth, as in heaven.
(Thanks for the great quotes, too! Especially Berlin's comment about offering freedom instead of care.)

by: RachelK

11-10-2009 @ 8:39pm

Dr. Dixon,
Thank you for your generous, caring, careful thought and your eloquent description of the balance that is necessary for society to thrive. I am moved to hope again for a world in which we are not dogs reduced to eating dogs, but can envision God's household doing God's will on earth, as in heaven.
(Thanks for the great quotes, too! Especially Berlin's comment about offering freedom instead of care.)

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 8:39pm

Justice is as disputed as freedom. To me, justice = the lack of encroachments on rights/freedom. In Scripture, injustices are decried which cannot be solved by government, so it seems obvious that there are at least two levels of both rights and justice.

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 8:39pm

Justice is as disputed as freedom. To me, justice = the lack of encroachments on rights/freedom. In Scripture, injustices are decried which cannot be solved by government, so it seems obvious that there are at least two levels of both rights and justice.

by: Lord_Voldemort

11-10-2009 @ 9:05pm

Another thought occurs to me. It's getting to be something of a cliche around here, the notion that opposition to this program or that is motivated by fear and since the Bible enjoins fear at various points, this means that opposition to said program is illegitimate.

But of course two can play that game: the left clamours for government programs out of fear of the rigours and (to be fair) occasional caprices of the free market. But God has not given us a spirit of fear, therefore there is no need for government health care. QED

If you don't mind a little friendly advice, I'd go easy on the argument "against fear". It just doesn't get you very far.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

11-10-2009 @ 9:05pm

Another thought occurs to me. It's getting to be something of a cliche around here, the notion that opposition to this program or that is motivated by fear and since the Bible enjoins fear at various points, this means that opposition to said program is illegitimate.

But of course two can play that game: the left clamours for government programs out of fear of the rigours and (to be fair) occasional caprices of the free market. But God has not given us a spirit of fear, therefore there is no need for government health care. QED

If you don't mind a little friendly advice, I'd go easy on the argument "against fear". It just doesn't get you very far.

LV

by: jesse3

11-10-2009 @ 9:30pm

I am afraid to leave my door unlocked since I think someone could come in and rob my home. I am also afraid that a government takeover of health care could have many negative consequences.

Please tell me how these fears would be unbiblical or how one would be but the other wouldn't.

by: jesse3

11-10-2009 @ 9:30pm

I am afraid to leave my door unlocked since I think someone could come in and rob my home. I am also afraid that a government takeover of health care could have many negative consequences.

Please tell me how these fears would be unbiblical or how one would be but the other wouldn't.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 9:52pm

That's not what the Bible says about it -- read the Prophets sometime. It
means doing what's right by everybody and even may at times entail curtailing
"freedom."

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 9:52pm

That's not what the Bible says about it -- read the Prophets sometime. It
means doing what's right by everybody and even may at times entail curtailing
"freedom."

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 10:14pm

That's not what the Bible says about it -- read the Prophets sometime.

That is a rather condescending tone. I have read the prophets; to my knowledge they only intervene physically when religion gets involved and that not always. (I can't think of any law proposed by a prophet.) For example, the prophets of Baal did forfeit their right to life to Elijah, and certain kings tore down idols. But mostly it's a process of warning and waiting for God's action, especially for sins which don't involve religion.

You might like to say that all sins involve religion, but this seems like twisting words to me. The religion mentioned in Scripture is of the most literal kind. Further, if you categorize it as religion it falls under the protection of the Constitution. If you want to claim that the Constitution is a violated covenant which no longer matters - well, at least that's consistent but I don't think you have any business in politics.

So if you would like to point out a passage which breaks the mold I described in the first paragraph, be my guest.

by: Jesdisciple

11-10-2009 @ 10:14pm

That's not what the Bible says about it -- read the Prophets sometime.

That is a rather condescending tone. I have read the prophets; to my knowledge they only intervene physically when religion gets involved and that not always. (I can't think of any law proposed by a prophet.) For example, the prophets of Baal did forfeit their right to life to Elijah, and certain kings tore down idols. But mostly it's a process of warning and waiting for God's action, especially for sins which don't involve religion.

You might like to say that all sins involve religion, but this seems like twisting words to me. The religion mentioned in Scripture is of the most literal kind. Further, if you categorize it as religion it falls under the protection of the Constitution. If you want to claim that the Constitution is a violated covenant which no longer matters - well, at least that's consistent but I don't think you have any business in politics.

So if you would like to point out a passage which breaks the mold I described in the first paragraph, be my guest.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 10:25pm

Sorry if that sounds condescending, but I get annoyed when people call justice "just protecting MY stuff"; that's basically what I heard and what often passes for truth in the evangelical world; as such, it contradicts the Scripture. I believe that we're supposed to be concerned not with my own authority but with the rights and freedoms of those around me. That's justifiable in Christianity -- but only in Christianity.

From Philippians 2:1-4:

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Elsewhere in the Scriptures it tells believers not to treat unbelievers differently, so I think it applies.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 10:25pm

Sorry if that sounds condescending, but I get annoyed when people call justice "just protecting MY stuff"; that's basically what I heard and what often passes for truth in the evangelical world; as such, it contradicts the Scripture. I believe that we're supposed to be concerned not with my own authority but with the rights and freedoms of those around me. That's justifiable in Christianity -- but only in Christianity.

From Philippians 2:1-4:

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Elsewhere in the Scriptures it tells believers not to treat unbelievers differently, so I think it applies.

by: Anothernonymous

11-10-2009 @ 10:27pm

You already have health insurance? That's great; I do too. So does my wife, thanks to being married to me. That could change in a minute if I lost my job or worse; as a cancer survivor, she'd be toast.

Fortunately, I'm not likely to lose my job, since I have tenure, that great guarantor of academic freedom. I'm sorry if a bill that guarantees her access to health care if the unthinkable were to happen strikes you as "hot air." Personally, I can think of quite a few superfluous freedoms I would be willing to cash in to make sure it passes, and even some more fundamental ones.

BTW, I agree that the fear thing is being pushed too far, as is the freedom thing. What this is about is justice, and the measure of justice is whether you look out for people who are less fortunate - or, in this case, less lucky.

by: Anothernonymous

11-10-2009 @ 10:27pm

You already have health insurance? That's great; I do too. So does my wife, thanks to being married to me. That could change in a minute if I lost my job or worse; as a cancer survivor, she'd be toast.

Fortunately, I'm not likely to lose my job, since I have tenure, that great guarantor of academic freedom. I'm sorry if a bill that guarantees her access to health care if the unthinkable were to happen strikes you as "hot air." Personally, I can think of quite a few superfluous freedoms I would be willing to cash in to make sure it passes, and even some more fundamental ones.

BTW, I agree that the fear thing is being pushed too far, as is the freedom thing. What this is about is justice, and the measure of justice is whether you look out for people who are less fortunate - or, in this case, less lucky.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 10:30pm

Sorry, but it actually is fear that's driving the discourse right now -- not so much a fear of loss of money but loss of authority. A whole lot of folks spend their lives trying to be "above" the next guy, and all of a sudden here's a government program that basically renders some of those efforts somewhat obsolete. Bottom line, it's part of the "dog-eat-dog" or "social Darwinist" mentality we've seen in this country over the past 30 years or so, and it makes God cringe.

by: BlueDeacon

11-10-2009 @ 10:30pm

Sorry, but it actually is fear that's driving the discourse right now -- not so much a fear of loss of money but loss of authority. A whole lot of folks spend their lives trying to be "above" the next guy, and all of a sudden here's a government program that basically renders some of those efforts somewhat obsolete. Bottom line, it's part of the "dog-eat-dog" or "social Darwinist" mentality we've seen in this country over the past 30 years or so, and it makes God cringe.

by: prk

11-10-2009 @ 11:31pm

Justice-Will it be just when our children are not saved from a condition because the government has done away with incentives for our best and britest to be in the medical profession?

by: prk

11-10-2009 @ 11:31pm

Justice-Will it be just when our children are not saved from a condition because the government has done away with incentives for our best and britest to be in the medical profession?

by: squeaky

11-10-2009 @ 11:39pm

"Yes, and to force healthy people who want to go to school, build a home, start a business, etc, to buy health insurance they don't necessarily need is also to mock their condition."

I was very healthy in grad school. But I bought the cheapest BC/BS insurance they offered anyway (at that time, like $18/month--wonder what that policy would cost today?). Glad I did, especially on the day I played soccer and "smoked a joint", if you get what I mean. I ended up having surgery, and with that cheap policy had quite a bit covered, but still ended up with a few thousand dollars in bills to pay.

As a student with little to no income, it was a monumental expense for me. It is ironic that at a time in my life when I could least afford it, that was when my coverage was also the least.

The point, of course, is that when we are healthy, we think we don't need insurance. Until that accident happens. I'm an excellent driver and have never had an accident or even a speeding ticket, so why should I be required to buy car insurance?

"I already have access, as do the vast majority of Americans."

What are you implying by that statement? That those who don't have access don't matter? That it is their own fault for not working hard enough?

I had a colleague who had brain surgery when she was a grad student. As a grad student, she had insurance through the university, but because she had to drop out of school to deal with that pesky brain tumor, she lost her insurance. It's very expensive to be treated for a brain tumor, as you can perhaps imagine. She was struggling to get on another insurance policy, and the university we taught at didn't give adjunct professors insurance. One insurance company about as much as told her it would have been easier for her to have died. Ironically again, she got hit with this when she least could afford it, and when she was young and healthy. If she had been hit after she had finished grad school and gotten that tenure track university gig, everything would have been covered.

So, is it that she didn't deserve the insurance, or that she didn't work hard enough to earn it that she was uninsured?

by: squeaky

11-10-2009 @ 11:39pm

"Yes, and to force healthy people who want to go to school, build a home, start a business, etc, to buy health insurance they don't necessarily need is also to mock their condition."

I was very healthy in grad school. But I bought the cheapest BC/BS insurance they offered anyway (at that time, like $18/month--wonder what that policy would cost today?). Glad I did, especially on the day I played soccer and "smoked a joint", if you get what I mean. I ended up having surgery, and with that cheap policy had quite a bit covered, but still ended up with a few thousand dollars in bills to pay.

As a student with little to no income, it was a monumental expense for me. It is ironic that at a time in my life when I could least afford it, that was when my coverage was also the least.

The point, of course, is that when we are healthy, we think we don't need insurance. Until that accident happens. I'm an excellent driver and have never had an accident or even a speeding ticket, so why should I be required to buy car insurance?

"I already have access, as do the vast majority of Americans."

What are you implying by that statement? That those who don't have access don't matter? That it is their own fault for not working hard enough?

I had a colleague who had brain surgery when she was a grad student. As a grad student, she had insurance through the university, but because she had to drop out of school to deal with that pesky brain tumor, she lost her insurance. It's very expensive to be treated for a brain tumor, as you can perhaps imagine. She was struggling to get on another insurance policy, and the university we taught at didn't give adjunct professors insurance. One insurance company about as much as told her it would have been easier for her to have died. Ironically again, she got hit with this when she least could afford it, and when she was young and healthy. If she had been hit after she had finished grad school and gotten that tenure track university gig, everything would have been covered.

So, is it that she didn't deserve the insurance, or that she didn't work hard enough to earn it that she was uninsured?

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 12:17am

I have great problems with applying passages regarding basic morality to government. Modern liberal political policies had not yet been conceived of at this point in time, and I find nothing in Scripture to indicate they should have been. Everything of this sort that I see relates only to the individual's relationship to other individuals - not the government's relationship to individuals.

But in the interest of drawing political policy from Scripture, here's one I can apply against welfare - although I think the argument that it only applies to the Church would be easy to make based on context.

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 12:17am

I have great problems with applying passages regarding basic morality to government. Modern liberal political policies had not yet been conceived of at this point in time, and I find nothing in Scripture to indicate they should have been. Everything of this sort that I see relates only to the individual's relationship to other individuals - not the government's relationship to individuals.

But in the interest of drawing political policy from Scripture, here's one I can apply against welfare - although I think the argument that it only applies to the Church would be easy to make based on context.

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 12:54am

"Everything of this sort that I see relates only to the individual's relationship to other individuals - not the government's relationship to individuals."

Only a modern individualist could read the prophets this way. Without exception, they were calling Israel to task for her failure to live up to her responsibility as God's chosen people. The relationship of individuals to other individuals is only comprehensible in this context. The modern concept of the responsibility of one individual to another as the ultimate good quite simply didn't exist for the writers of the Old Testament.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 12:54am

"Everything of this sort that I see relates only to the individual's relationship to other individuals - not the government's relationship to individuals."

Only a modern individualist could read the prophets this way. Without exception, they were calling Israel to task for her failure to live up to her responsibility as God's chosen people. The relationship of individuals to other individuals is only comprehensible in this context. The modern concept of the responsibility of one individual to another as the ultimate good quite simply didn't exist for the writers of the Old Testament.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:01am

I agree that Israel was addressed as a nation, although I don't see any difference between that and us doing the same to America. In the latter case, we are addressing each individual and expecting them to lead the rest. If this isn't what you mean, I need a full explanation of that worldview and proof that they held it.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:01am

I agree that Israel was addressed as a nation, although I don't see any difference between that and us doing the same to America. In the latter case, we are addressing each individual and expecting them to lead the rest. If this isn't what you mean, I need a full explanation of that worldview and proof that they held it.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:04am

As long as individuals live in society, freedom is not absolute. The common good puts limits on individual freedom.

"Common good" does not supersede individual freedom. And for that matter, whose definition of common good? Mine? Yours? Majority rule? Popular opinion?

My question is: what goal does such a mandate prevent us from attaining?

The very existence of this question betrays Ms. Dixon's distrust in individuals to make his/her own choices. People are not ants; they are individuals with rational choice, free will, and ought to have the ability to pursue the goals they themselves have decided are best for them. In an earlier post a few months ago, Ms. Dixon invoked "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as rights our government should ensure. This mandate specifically goes against "pursuit of happiness," precisely because it negates an individual's decision to pursue happiness in other ways.

We cooperate with our fellow citizens to help pay for health care for all.
Only in 1982 does the word "cooperate" mean this. When the government mandates something, that is not cooperation, that is coercion.

Freedom is complicated. It is more than the ability to do what we want without interference.
Freedom is not complicated. To say so otherwise is to twist the meaning of the word freedom in order to justify non-peaceful actions such as government mandates. Obviously in a society there is not "unlimited" freedoms; my will does not always coincide with others', and so we are required to peacefully exchange. Enter mandates by government as to how we should peacefully exchange, and you have an infringement upon freedom.

We ought not to fear our own government. In a republic, our vote is a check on the power of government. The paradox is by giving up a portion of our freedom, we will gain greater freedom.
Thomas Jefferson would disagree: "Where the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Where the government fears the people, there is liberty." Our vote at the federal level is meaningless, and is in no way a "check" on the power of government.

As for the freedom paradox, I agree, but not in the same way as stated here. Being forced to give up freedoms is not the same thing as voluntarily giving up one's freedom for a "greater good." Be assured: we are being forced-coerced-to go along with Congress' legislation, whatever law is codified.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:04am

As long as individuals live in society, freedom is not absolute. The common good puts limits on individual freedom.

"Common good" does not supersede individual freedom. And for that matter, whose definition of common good? Mine? Yours? Majority rule? Popular opinion?

My question is: what goal does such a mandate prevent us from attaining?

The very existence of this question betrays Ms. Dixon's distrust in individuals to make his/her own choices. People are not ants; they are individuals with rational choice, free will, and ought to have the ability to pursue the goals they themselves have decided are best for them. In an earlier post a few months ago, Ms. Dixon invoked "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as rights our government should ensure. This mandate specifically goes against "pursuit of happiness," precisely because it negates an individual's decision to pursue happiness in other ways.

We cooperate with our fellow citizens to help pay for health care for all.
Only in 1982 does the word "cooperate" mean this. When the government mandates something, that is not cooperation, that is coercion.

Freedom is complicated. It is more than the ability to do what we want without interference.
Freedom is not complicated. To say so otherwise is to twist the meaning of the word freedom in order to justify non-peaceful actions such as government mandates. Obviously in a society there is not "unlimited" freedoms; my will does not always coincide with others', and so we are required to peacefully exchange. Enter mandates by government as to how we should peacefully exchange, and you have an infringement upon freedom.

We ought not to fear our own government. In a republic, our vote is a check on the power of government. The paradox is by giving up a portion of our freedom, we will gain greater freedom.
Thomas Jefferson would disagree: "Where the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Where the government fears the people, there is liberty." Our vote at the federal level is meaningless, and is in no way a "check" on the power of government.

As for the freedom paradox, I agree, but not in the same way as stated here. Being forced to give up freedoms is not the same thing as voluntarily giving up one's freedom for a "greater good." Be assured: we are being forced-coerced-to go along with Congress' legislation, whatever law is codified.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:08am

Remember, however, that both Israel and the early church were both in covenant with God to seek and promote justice, both with each other and our neighbors. I don't agree with a strict "individualist" approach to those "commands" in Scripture, along with you. But I think the context of neighborliness, sacrifice, and love toward others must be understood as things to be voluntary. The very fact that the government is needing to enact anything is more an indictment on our injustice rather than an establishment of justice.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:08am

Remember, however, that both Israel and the early church were both in covenant with God to seek and promote justice, both with each other and our neighbors. I don't agree with a strict "individualist" approach to those "commands" in Scripture, along with you. But I think the context of neighborliness, sacrifice, and love toward others must be understood as things to be voluntary. The very fact that the government is needing to enact anything is more an indictment on our injustice rather than an establishment of justice.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:12am

Have you thought of why your health care is tied to employment? Doesn't it strike you as odd that you have to pay for insurance through lower wages? Doesn't it seem wasteful and poor stewardship to have less competition, less control, and fewer options for your health care? If the problem with losing insurance when becoming unemployed, there's an easy solution: don't tie insurance to employment! Imagine if we all had to go choose a plan on our own, on the open market... just like every other market, costs of insurance would go down by virtue of competition. Add to that the state governments restricting insurance companies from operating across state lines, and there's even less competition.

The problem does not lie in access to health care, but in the costs of that health care increasing over time due to increased regulation, restriction, and no competition. Big Insurance loves having no competition because it means they can charge relatively whatever they want.

by: xfree9

11-11-2009 @ 1:12am

Have you thought of why your health care is tied to employment? Doesn't it strike you as odd that you have to pay for insurance through lower wages? Doesn't it seem wasteful and poor stewardship to have less competition, less control, and fewer options for your health care? If the problem with losing insurance when becoming unemployed, there's an easy solution: don't tie insurance to employment! Imagine if we all had to go choose a plan on our own, on the open market... just like every other market, costs of insurance would go down by virtue of competition. Add to that the state governments restricting insurance companies from operating across state lines, and there's even less competition.

The problem does not lie in access to health care, but in the costs of that health care increasing over time due to increased regulation, restriction, and no competition. Big Insurance loves having no competition because it means they can charge relatively whatever they want.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:14am

"In the latter case, we are addressing each individual and expecting them to lead the rest."

But that is not at all what the prophets were doing. They were calling Israel, collectively, to account. If you disagree with this, the burden of proof is on you, since you are going against the entire weight of Biblical tradition and substituting modern individualism, which has no grounding or support in the Bible.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:14am

"In the latter case, we are addressing each individual and expecting them to lead the rest."

But that is not at all what the prophets were doing. They were calling Israel, collectively, to account. If you disagree with this, the burden of proof is on you, since you are going against the entire weight of Biblical tradition and substituting modern individualism, which has no grounding or support in the Bible.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:15am

"But I think the context of neighborliness, sacrifice, and love toward others must be understood as things to be voluntary."

A noble goal, but one that our modern "every man for himself" ethos does not support. If we really listen to the call of the Prophets, they speak about God's commands to Israel, not about voluntary choice.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:15am

"But I think the context of neighborliness, sacrifice, and love toward others must be understood as things to be voluntary."

A noble goal, but one that our modern "every man for himself" ethos does not support. If we really listen to the call of the Prophets, they speak about God's commands to Israel, not about voluntary choice.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:24am

...I have trouble seeing grounding or support either way. And I would still need an explanation of that worldview's axioms and how they translate into public policy.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:24am

...I have trouble seeing grounding or support either way. And I would still need an explanation of that worldview's axioms and how they translate into public policy.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:27am

"Big Insurance loves having no competition because it means they can charge relatively whatever they want."

Absolutely, but I maintain that only government is capable of fixing this problem, preferably through a single payer system that eliminates private business from the equation. The free market is an abstraction that is based on the principle of individual self-interest; it is not a dynamic force capable of doing anything to solve this problem. Free market health care, as far as I'm concerned, would be a nightmare: the ultimate apples to oranges mismatch in which a problem relating to the public good is thrown to private interest for a "solution." Sorry, but no thanks.

by: Anothernonymous

11-11-2009 @ 1:27am

"Big Insurance loves having no competition because it means they can charge relatively whatever they want."

Absolutely, but I maintain that only government is capable of fixing this problem, preferably through a single payer system that eliminates private business from the equation. The free market is an abstraction that is based on the principle of individual self-interest; it is not a dynamic force capable of doing anything to solve this problem. Free market health care, as far as I'm concerned, would be a nightmare: the ultimate apples to oranges mismatch in which a problem relating to the public good is thrown to private interest for a "solution." Sorry, but no thanks.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:27am

And that's why you're trying to override the Constitution rather than amend it? This is a rather cultural issue and I doubt it has the authority to override the law of the land like the Commandments.

by: Jesdisciple

11-11-2009 @ 1:27am

And that's why you're trying to override the Constitution rather than amend it? This is a rather cultural issue and I doubt it has the authority to override the law of the land like the Commandments.