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Psalm 109:8 -- A Prayer to Destroy Obama?

During the last few days, Psalm 109:8, a Bible verse in the form of a "prayer for Obama," has topped the Google trends chart: "May his days be few; may another take his office." Evidently, a bumper sticker emblazoned with this verse has popped up in various parts of the country. It is a sort of right-wing Christian equivalent to the old "01.20.09" stickers looking forward to the end of the Bush era.

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It was, most likely, intended as a joke. But it isn't really very funny. Especially since the next verse reads, "May his children be orphans, and his wife a widow." The passage goes on the same way -- asking God to pulverize this poor fellow -- that he lose all his worldly goods, that his orphans be abandoned, that his father be remembered as a sinner, and finally, that "his memory be cut off from the earth."

Thus, the "Prayer for Obama" does more than anticipate that he leaves office; it entreats God to destroy the president.

Psalm 109 belongs to a special category of the psalms known as "imprecatory" prayers -- it is a lament in the form of petition to destroy one's enemies. It is the personal prayer of an individual, someone who has been dealt an injustice by another (usually more powerful) person. The words of Psalm 109 are those of deep agony, the longings of a victim for retribution and justice. This psalm is considered one of the most difficult of all the psalms -- full of violent images of vengeance and death. Many a biblical critic has struggled with its words, and not a few -- including Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant theologians -- recommend it not be used in public worship, much less as a bumper-sticker political slogan.

In his marvelous book, Reflections on the Psalms, C.S. Lewis observed:

In some of the Psalms the spirit of hatred which strikes us in the face is like the heat from a furnace mouth. In others the same spirit ceases to be frightful only by becoming (to a modern mind) almost comic in its naivety. Examples can be found all over the Psalter, but perhaps the worst is in 109 (p. 20).

Lewis suspects that it may be best to leave such psalms alone. But then he says that we must face "facts squarely."

The hatred is there -- festering, gloating, undisguised -- and also we should be wicked if we in any way condoned or approved it, or (worse still) used it to justify similar passions in ourselves (p. 22).

Lewis refers to these psalms as horrible, devilish, cruel, hateful, and evil. He believes that Psalm 109 -- and the poetry of its kind in the psalter -- should point us back to the evil we carry within and teach us each how to behave with goodness, humility, and love.

According to the venerable C.S. Lewis, then, a "Prayer for Obama" is really a prayer for ourselves to go beyond "festering, gloating, undisguised" hatred. "If the Divine does not call to make us better, it will make us very much worse," he reminded his readers. "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."

portrait-diana-butler-bassDiana Butler Bass is pretty much a postmodern progressive. In addition to blogging here, she also blogs at Progressive Revival and is the author of the new book, A People's History of Christianity: The Other Side of the Story.

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by: scat

11-19-2009 @ 10:57pm

Seems to me that "wasting money through fraud and misuse" has worked pretty well for some of our Wall street and corporate CEO friends.

by: PASTOR JEFF

11-24-2009 @ 1:21am

Recessions/Depressions are a polite way of stating God's judgment for the sin of war. The panic of 1880 was caused by the reverbatation of the Civil War, the Great Depression (a worldwide event btw) was preceded by the Great War, the recessions of 1950-date are a consequence of WW@, Korea, Vietnam right up to Iraq- a military operation costing trillions of borrowed dollars while the Bush administration gave rebates, refunds and lower tax rates- all while encouraging increased expansion of a retail based economy with it's ensuing low-wage jobs. It's not to hard to see the judgment.

by: PASTOR JEFF

11-24-2009 @ 1:10am

Just a reminder: President Bush's solution to the terrorist attacks was to encourage the nation to "go shopping"

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 2:04pm

No, this isn't a joke. Some of the groups connected to threats against Obama use this scripture.

by: PASTOR JEFF

11-24-2009 @ 12:59am

Where does the Bible talk about money?

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 2:25pm

I am not ashamed to say that I hope President Obama's economic policies "fail." That is the nature of political thought; I do not wish him to succeed in some of his endeavors, I have always believed that he has spoken truth and has told us pretty much what he wants to accomplish, and it is not the way I want to see the country go, so I hope he fails.
That having been said, I wish him a long and healthy life, many children (at least as many as he and his wife want), many grandchildren, prosperity in his personal life, and I pray that God's complete will would be done for him. I find any inappropriate use of scripture to either make sick jokes or, worse, make a horrible wish for a man's future, to be disgusting.
I do not believe there is any inconsistency in those two paragraphs. I want his presidency to fail. But I wish Barack Obama God's peace in his personal living.

by: titopoet

11-17-2009 @ 2:46pm

The violent psalms like 109 and 137 are important and should not be avoided. It is always best to remember the direction of the psalms, they are us humans, fragile and sinners, talking to God. The psalms reveal more about us than about God. As prayer, they are a place to put anger of the oppressed. I agree that the flippant use of 109 by the Obama bashers really over the top and does not capture the real pain that the psalm conveys. It says how flippantly we read the Bible.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:26pm

A better prayer, that the wife of a friend of mine does with her husband (and they are both passionately against abortion and very critical of him as as a result) is that Obama, with God's help, become the best president since Lincoln; I told her, "God cannot but honor that kind of prayer."

Here's a question: What if Obama's economic policies actually work? And, not only that, if you benefit from them?

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:34pm

About a week before the election, when it became clear that Obama would probably win, I received an e-mail calling on Christians to pray for his miraculous defeat. I answered that the request was inappropriate. (Praying for something almost always requires something of the person making the request; thus, that prayer was asking God to move just to make them feel secure, which He will never do.)

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 3:37pm

I do not anticipate the possibility that his economic policies will do anything but fail. One simply cannot spend oneself into prosperity. And, of course, I cannot "benefit" from a series of policies that are almost certainly doomed to failure. And, of course, I have already said I want his policies to fail. So your question doesn't really ask much of me, does it?

by: tam73

11-17-2009 @ 4:05pm

I do pray for President Obama. I pray that God will give him discernment, guide his ways and that he get wise counsel from those around him.

Meanwhile as a person blessed to be a citizen of this country, I do not support his political agenda which emphasizes big government that usurps the freedom of the individual for the rights of the state. Therefore I oppose his policies that are against my personal beliefs in those areas.

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

It matters not whether I benefit from his economic policies.
The road he is following will lead to a debt driven death spiral for our economy which will in the long term hurt everyone. We need to take our medicine as a nation and get our house in order both fiscally and spiritually. Unfortunately Mr. Obama appears to be more interested in being an esteemed world leader than in changing anything for the better.

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 2:04pm

No, this isn't a joke. Some of the groups connected to threats against Obama use this scripture.

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 4:38pm

You didn't answer the question. What if, against all your expectations, they succeed? Saying they won't succeed because you don't expect them to is not an answer, and in fact, is only an evasive maneuver.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 2:25pm

I am not ashamed to say that I hope President Obama's economic policies "fail." That is the nature of political thought; I do not wish him to succeed in some of his endeavors, I have always believed that he has spoken truth and has told us pretty much what he wants to accomplish, and it is not the way I want to see the country go, so I hope he fails.
That having been said, I wish him a long and healthy life, many children (at least as many as he and his wife want), many grandchildren, prosperity in his personal life, and I pray that God's complete will would be done for him. I find any inappropriate use of scripture to either make sick jokes or, worse, make a horrible wish for a man's future, to be disgusting.
I do not believe there is any inconsistency in those two paragraphs. I want his presidency to fail. But I wish Barack Obama God's peace in his personal living.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 4:47pm

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

In my mind, you just sabotaged that prayer because that statement is full of the invective that has paralyzed this country politically for the past couple of decades. In other words, it's overreacting.

by: titopoet

11-17-2009 @ 2:46pm

The violent psalms like 109 and 137 are important and should not be avoided. It is always best to remember the direction of the psalms, they are us humans, fragile and sinners, talking to God. The psalms reveal more about us than about God. As prayer, they are a place to put anger of the oppressed. I agree that the flippant use of 109 by the Obama bashers really over the top and does not capture the real pain that the psalm conveys. It says how flippantly we read the Bible.

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:17pm

That is, assuming Lincoln was a good president. He was an incredibly racist, power-hungry, authoritarian president, and his writings reveal such without much "reading between the lines."

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:18pm

That's really a shame. I'm glad you responded... most of us just throw those emails away and ignore them.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:26pm

A better prayer, that the wife of a friend of mine does with her husband (and they are both passionately against abortion and very critical of him as as a result) is that Obama, with God's help, become the best president since Lincoln; I told her, "God cannot but honor that kind of prayer."

Here's a question: What if Obama's economic policies actually work? And, not only that, if you benefit from them?

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:21pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment. Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

In all honesty, if we pray that "Obama does God's will the way I see God's will," that is futile. But if we ask that God helps Obama have discernment, that also means that we must be willing to admit that won't quite look the way we thought it would. But most of us aren't willing to be wrong in our view of "what God wants."

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:34pm

About a week before the election, when it became clear that Obama would probably win, I received an e-mail calling on Christians to pray for his miraculous defeat. I answered that the request was inappropriate. (Praying for something almost always requires something of the person making the request; thus, that prayer was asking God to move just to make them feel secure, which He will never do.)

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 5:47pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment.

Only</> in response to those words which are themselves full of invective, and that's not even consistent.

Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

He was specifically complaining about the "nanny state," which is overstating things and, in that context, deliberately inflammatory. Even Charles Stanley jumped on that bandwagon, saying that one of his 10 things to pray for the president was that he would stem "creeping socialism" -- as if God was opposed to that. (Our God overtly endorses no political or economic system.)

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 3:37pm

I do not anticipate the possibility that his economic policies will do anything but fail. One simply cannot spend oneself into prosperity. And, of course, I cannot "benefit" from a series of policies that are almost certainly doomed to failure. And, of course, I have already said I want his policies to fail. So your question doesn't really ask much of me, does it?

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 6:28pm

I will second squeaky's suggestion you answer the question.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 6:32pm

Spoken like a Southerner (a region of the country I know well) -- many hate him to this day. But his alleged racism was par for the course, especially for that day; he rejected slavery but didn't believe that black and white could live in peace. Even abolitionists believed that slaves should be shipped back to Africa.

by: tam73

11-17-2009 @ 4:05pm

I do pray for President Obama. I pray that God will give him discernment, guide his ways and that he get wise counsel from those around him.

Meanwhile as a person blessed to be a citizen of this country, I do not support his political agenda which emphasizes big government that usurps the freedom of the individual for the rights of the state. Therefore I oppose his policies that are against my personal beliefs in those areas.

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

It matters not whether I benefit from his economic policies.
The road he is following will lead to a debt driven death spiral for our economy which will in the long term hurt everyone. We need to take our medicine as a nation and get our house in order both fiscally and spiritually. Unfortunately Mr. Obama appears to be more interested in being an esteemed world leader than in changing anything for the better.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:08pm

I'm not so sure of that. The prophets speak of the time, coming, when each man would "sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree." The emphasis is on "his own. . ." God seems to enjoy the prospect of each man having his own property, to enjoy at his own decision and discernment.

by: ckgmail

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

Did FDR's economic policies fail? Were the CCC and the WPA failures? I was born on a dust bowl farm 1n 1933, and my parents certainly did not think so. My criticism of Obama's economic policies is that they are not bold enough, that we need some direct job creation for the infrastructure.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

My contention is that it is impossible for President Obama's economic policies to succeed, in the final analysis. He has said that "we will spend ourselves out of this . . .(mess)" and that is an absurdity. We will not do that; and so I cannot postulate what I "would do" if he succeeded. He cannot, just as I cannot spend myself out of bankruptcy. The difference, of course, is that the government can crank up the printing presses, but that only adds to the absurdity.

Please remember, however, that the original discussion was - - can we both "honor" a person as an individual, made in God's image, and at the same time, pray for the failure of his public policies. That was our original subject, and I did not intend to switch it over into specific economics. I wanted really to point out that, while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure.

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 4:38pm

You didn't answer the question. What if, against all your expectations, they succeed? Saying they won't succeed because you don't expect them to is not an answer, and in fact, is only an evasive maneuver.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 4:47pm

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

In my mind, you just sabotaged that prayer because that statement is full of the invective that has paralyzed this country politically for the past couple of decades. In other words, it's overreacting.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:22pm

Well, as a matter of fact, there is a strong historical line of thought that says that FDR's policies were pretty much a failure. That is to say, the unemployment rate of 1937-38 was actually higher than earlier in the Great Depression, say 1933-34, and it was clearly the outbreak of World War II that "enlivened" the U.S. economy. FDR's policies, according to this line of study, did nothing except probably worsen the economic condition of the USA during the late 30's. I personally am attracted by this line of thought, though I am not an expert, so I can only parrot what I read.
I will continue to say this, however - - we simply cannot spend ourselves out of an economic recession of this type. We cannot do it as individuals, and we cannot do it as a society. And since President Obama apparently believes otherwise, he is doomed to failure. And there is no reason for me to answer a question, "but what would you do if he succeeds?" because he cannot. And I continue to wish him failure in the pushing of his public policies along this line. But I wish him no personal harm, nor do I bear him ill will at all. He probably would make a great neighbor; we could have stimulating discussions, to say the least!!

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:17pm

That is, assuming Lincoln was a good president. He was an incredibly racist, power-hungry, authoritarian president, and his writings reveal such without much "reading between the lines."

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 7:27pm

You're still evading the question.

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:18pm

That's really a shame. I'm glad you responded... most of us just throw those emails away and ignore them.

by: jeremythompson

11-17-2009 @ 7:36pm

Is there anything you don't know well?

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:21pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment. Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

In all honesty, if we pray that "Obama does God's will the way I see God's will," that is futile. But if we ask that God helps Obama have discernment, that also means that we must be willing to admit that won't quite look the way we thought it would. But most of us aren't willing to be wrong in our view of "what God wants."

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:41pm

No, I am not. I am telling you that, if you asked me to imagine that a circle was actually a square, and then asked me how I would make a wheel, I would say, "there is no answer to that question. The question itself is an absurdity." That is what I am telling you about asking me to imagine President Obama's current economic policies as a success. OK? :)

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 5:47pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment.

Only</> in response to those words which are themselves full of invective, and that's not even consistent.

Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

He was specifically complaining about the "nanny state," which is overstating things and, in that context, deliberately inflammatory. Even Charles Stanley jumped on that bandwagon, saying that one of his 10 things to pray for the president was that he would stem "creeping socialism" -- as if God was opposed to that. (Our God overtly endorses no political or economic system.)

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 6:28pm

I will second squeaky's suggestion you answer the question.

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 8:22pm

So if I have you straight (excusing the fact you still chose not to answer the question) -- if the policies of the US government fail to bring us out of recession and a global financial crisis -- we will then be out of the crisis??? Did you want the Bush stimulus and bail-out to succeed and the Obama one to fail? Or you wanted both to fail so wealth continues to be destroyed and the poorest of the Earth die?

I opposed the US invasion of Iraq. I have never said I hope the US policy to establish an Iraq with a semi-stable democracy that is not at war and not developing wmd's etc. fails. I have never said, "I oppose Federal entanglement with education system--so I hope the policy to have a strong system fails." I have never said, "I oppose capital punishment so I hope it fails to deter crime."

by: Android Tablets

06-14-2011 @ 5:41pm

You christians make me laugh, from all camps alike and all other religions as well for that matter.
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by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 6:32pm

Spoken like a Southerner (a region of the country I know well) -- many hate him to this day. But his alleged racism was par for the course, especially for that day; he rejected slavery but didn't believe that black and white could live in peace. Even abolitionists believed that slaves should be shipped back to Africa.

by: atalex

11-17-2009 @ 8:33pm

"One cannot spend oneself into prosperity."

What a bizarre idea! The entire point of capitalism is to invest your money in such a way that your future profits exceed the amount of your original investment. True, some investments don't pan out, but investment as a whole will produce net profits. If that were not the case, then we should abandon capitalism for some other system post haste. Viewed that way, the economic rationale for providing universal health care is that if people aren't forced to stay with their current employers in order to keep their present health coverage, they will be more willing to take entrepreneurial risks which will pay off for the government in the form of higher tax revenue. Far from socialism, the practical effect of the proposed policies will be to better facilitate capitalism, and the only people who are even trying to argue otherwise are those who work (directly or indirectly) for the narrow set of business interests who fear that universal health care will damage their oligopolies -- i.e. the insurance industry.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:08pm

I'm not so sure of that. The prophets speak of the time, coming, when each man would "sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree." The emphasis is on "his own. . ." God seems to enjoy the prospect of each man having his own property, to enjoy at his own decision and discernment.

by: JaneinWNY

11-17-2009 @ 8:42pm

"while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure."

If, in your view, his policies are bound to fail and cannot possibly ever succeed, then it isn't clear why you would need to pray for their failure.

Would it be better to pray that God gives him (and all of us) wisdom?

Jane

by: ckgmail

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

Did FDR's economic policies fail? Were the CCC and the WPA failures? I was born on a dust bowl farm 1n 1933, and my parents certainly did not think so. My criticism of Obama's economic policies is that they are not bold enough, that we need some direct job creation for the infrastructure.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 8:43pm

No. This spending spree really started in the second Bush term. But President Obama continues it with abandon, and he is spending "money" we simply do not have, nor can we create. We are borrowing it - - mostly, from China. And we are only OK as long as China is willing to continue to loan. And they will not, forever. And I want President Obama's policy of "spending us out of this mess" to fail. I want us to SAVE, as individuals, as a society. If we are to survive as a nation - - and right now, this is in doubt - - we must live within our means. Period. End of postings.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

My contention is that it is impossible for President Obama's economic policies to succeed, in the final analysis. He has said that "we will spend ourselves out of this . . .(mess)" and that is an absurdity. We will not do that; and so I cannot postulate what I "would do" if he succeeded. He cannot, just as I cannot spend myself out of bankruptcy. The difference, of course, is that the government can crank up the printing presses, but that only adds to the absurdity.

Please remember, however, that the original discussion was - - can we both "honor" a person as an individual, made in God's image, and at the same time, pray for the failure of his public policies. That was our original subject, and I did not intend to switch it over into specific economics. I wanted really to point out that, while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure.

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 8:44pm

"I want his presidency to fail." jkc1945

Failure, by definition, imagines success as possible. A runner cannot fail to reach a finish line if there is no finish line. A person cannot fail to own half the world--if there is not a world to be owned.

Ever since some very loud voices started saying they wanted Obama to fail before he even took office there has been a large chorus of people trying to explain how so very logical it is for citizens to want there government to fail. They have been going through every manner of semantic torture to avoid confronting the reality of their own words.

I think you are doing the same.

The question was legitimate. It was not absurd.

I withdraw my request you answer it. My request is you simply pause and reflect honestly about your mind and heart--and what it means to express a hope that someone fails. The legitimate hope for failure is when one defines the objective as undesired or unethical.

So you might say, "I hope Obama fails to destroy the United States." Of course you might then need to offer proof Obama wants to destroy the United States.

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by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 2:04pm

No, this isn't a joke. Some of the groups connected to threats against Obama use this scripture.

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 2:04pm

No, this isn't a joke. Some of the groups connected to threats against Obama use this scripture.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 2:25pm

I am not ashamed to say that I hope President Obama's economic policies "fail." That is the nature of political thought; I do not wish him to succeed in some of his endeavors, I have always believed that he has spoken truth and has told us pretty much what he wants to accomplish, and it is not the way I want to see the country go, so I hope he fails.
That having been said, I wish him a long and healthy life, many children (at least as many as he and his wife want), many grandchildren, prosperity in his personal life, and I pray that God's complete will would be done for him. I find any inappropriate use of scripture to either make sick jokes or, worse, make a horrible wish for a man's future, to be disgusting.
I do not believe there is any inconsistency in those two paragraphs. I want his presidency to fail. But I wish Barack Obama God's peace in his personal living.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 2:25pm

I am not ashamed to say that I hope President Obama's economic policies "fail." That is the nature of political thought; I do not wish him to succeed in some of his endeavors, I have always believed that he has spoken truth and has told us pretty much what he wants to accomplish, and it is not the way I want to see the country go, so I hope he fails.
That having been said, I wish him a long and healthy life, many children (at least as many as he and his wife want), many grandchildren, prosperity in his personal life, and I pray that God's complete will would be done for him. I find any inappropriate use of scripture to either make sick jokes or, worse, make a horrible wish for a man's future, to be disgusting.
I do not believe there is any inconsistency in those two paragraphs. I want his presidency to fail. But I wish Barack Obama God's peace in his personal living.

by: titopoet

11-17-2009 @ 2:46pm

The violent psalms like 109 and 137 are important and should not be avoided. It is always best to remember the direction of the psalms, they are us humans, fragile and sinners, talking to God. The psalms reveal more about us than about God. As prayer, they are a place to put anger of the oppressed. I agree that the flippant use of 109 by the Obama bashers really over the top and does not capture the real pain that the psalm conveys. It says how flippantly we read the Bible.

by: titopoet

11-17-2009 @ 2:46pm

The violent psalms like 109 and 137 are important and should not be avoided. It is always best to remember the direction of the psalms, they are us humans, fragile and sinners, talking to God. The psalms reveal more about us than about God. As prayer, they are a place to put anger of the oppressed. I agree that the flippant use of 109 by the Obama bashers really over the top and does not capture the real pain that the psalm conveys. It says how flippantly we read the Bible.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:26pm

A better prayer, that the wife of a friend of mine does with her husband (and they are both passionately against abortion and very critical of him as as a result) is that Obama, with God's help, become the best president since Lincoln; I told her, "God cannot but honor that kind of prayer."

Here's a question: What if Obama's economic policies actually work? And, not only that, if you benefit from them?

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:26pm

A better prayer, that the wife of a friend of mine does with her husband (and they are both passionately against abortion and very critical of him as as a result) is that Obama, with God's help, become the best president since Lincoln; I told her, "God cannot but honor that kind of prayer."

Here's a question: What if Obama's economic policies actually work? And, not only that, if you benefit from them?

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:34pm

About a week before the election, when it became clear that Obama would probably win, I received an e-mail calling on Christians to pray for his miraculous defeat. I answered that the request was inappropriate. (Praying for something almost always requires something of the person making the request; thus, that prayer was asking God to move just to make them feel secure, which He will never do.)

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 3:34pm

About a week before the election, when it became clear that Obama would probably win, I received an e-mail calling on Christians to pray for his miraculous defeat. I answered that the request was inappropriate. (Praying for something almost always requires something of the person making the request; thus, that prayer was asking God to move just to make them feel secure, which He will never do.)

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 3:37pm

I do not anticipate the possibility that his economic policies will do anything but fail. One simply cannot spend oneself into prosperity. And, of course, I cannot "benefit" from a series of policies that are almost certainly doomed to failure. And, of course, I have already said I want his policies to fail. So your question doesn't really ask much of me, does it?

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 3:37pm

I do not anticipate the possibility that his economic policies will do anything but fail. One simply cannot spend oneself into prosperity. And, of course, I cannot "benefit" from a series of policies that are almost certainly doomed to failure. And, of course, I have already said I want his policies to fail. So your question doesn't really ask much of me, does it?

by: tam73

11-17-2009 @ 4:05pm

I do pray for President Obama. I pray that God will give him discernment, guide his ways and that he get wise counsel from those around him.

Meanwhile as a person blessed to be a citizen of this country, I do not support his political agenda which emphasizes big government that usurps the freedom of the individual for the rights of the state. Therefore I oppose his policies that are against my personal beliefs in those areas.

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

It matters not whether I benefit from his economic policies.
The road he is following will lead to a debt driven death spiral for our economy which will in the long term hurt everyone. We need to take our medicine as a nation and get our house in order both fiscally and spiritually. Unfortunately Mr. Obama appears to be more interested in being an esteemed world leader than in changing anything for the better.

by: tam73

11-17-2009 @ 4:05pm

I do pray for President Obama. I pray that God will give him discernment, guide his ways and that he get wise counsel from those around him.

Meanwhile as a person blessed to be a citizen of this country, I do not support his political agenda which emphasizes big government that usurps the freedom of the individual for the rights of the state. Therefore I oppose his policies that are against my personal beliefs in those areas.

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

It matters not whether I benefit from his economic policies.
The road he is following will lead to a debt driven death spiral for our economy which will in the long term hurt everyone. We need to take our medicine as a nation and get our house in order both fiscally and spiritually. Unfortunately Mr. Obama appears to be more interested in being an esteemed world leader than in changing anything for the better.

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 4:38pm

You didn't answer the question. What if, against all your expectations, they succeed? Saying they won't succeed because you don't expect them to is not an answer, and in fact, is only an evasive maneuver.

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 4:38pm

You didn't answer the question. What if, against all your expectations, they succeed? Saying they won't succeed because you don't expect them to is not an answer, and in fact, is only an evasive maneuver.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 4:47pm

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

In my mind, you just sabotaged that prayer because that statement is full of the invective that has paralyzed this country politically for the past couple of decades. In other words, it's overreacting.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 4:47pm

His political history has been one of sacrificing individual freedoms and responsibilities for a nanny state which absolves individuals of responsibility other than blind allegiance to the state.

In my mind, you just sabotaged that prayer because that statement is full of the invective that has paralyzed this country politically for the past couple of decades. In other words, it's overreacting.

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:17pm

That is, assuming Lincoln was a good president. He was an incredibly racist, power-hungry, authoritarian president, and his writings reveal such without much "reading between the lines."

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:17pm

That is, assuming Lincoln was a good president. He was an incredibly racist, power-hungry, authoritarian president, and his writings reveal such without much "reading between the lines."

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:18pm

That's really a shame. I'm glad you responded... most of us just throw those emails away and ignore them.

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:18pm

That's really a shame. I'm glad you responded... most of us just throw those emails away and ignore them.

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:21pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment. Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

In all honesty, if we pray that "Obama does God's will the way I see God's will," that is futile. But if we ask that God helps Obama have discernment, that also means that we must be willing to admit that won't quite look the way we thought it would. But most of us aren't willing to be wrong in our view of "what God wants."

by: xfree9

11-17-2009 @ 5:21pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment. Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

In all honesty, if we pray that "Obama does God's will the way I see God's will," that is futile. But if we ask that God helps Obama have discernment, that also means that we must be willing to admit that won't quite look the way we thought it would. But most of us aren't willing to be wrong in our view of "what God wants."

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 5:47pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment.

Only</> in response to those words which are themselves full of invective, and that's not even consistent.

Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

He was specifically complaining about the "nanny state," which is overstating things and, in that context, deliberately inflammatory. Even Charles Stanley jumped on that bandwagon, saying that one of his 10 things to pray for the president was that he would stem "creeping socialism" -- as if God was opposed to that. (Our God overtly endorses no political or economic system.)

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 5:47pm

Your words are full of invective most of the time, so this is a pot/kettle comment.

Only</> in response to those words which are themselves full of invective, and that's not even consistent.

Even so, that one disagrees with Obama does not mean it sabotages a prayer. I'm sure Jim Wallis prayed for George W. Bush, but his vehement disagreement with the illegal wars and immoral budgets did not negate his prayer.

He was specifically complaining about the "nanny state," which is overstating things and, in that context, deliberately inflammatory. Even Charles Stanley jumped on that bandwagon, saying that one of his 10 things to pray for the president was that he would stem "creeping socialism" -- as if God was opposed to that. (Our God overtly endorses no political or economic system.)

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 6:28pm

I will second squeaky's suggestion you answer the question.

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 6:28pm

I will second squeaky's suggestion you answer the question.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 6:32pm

Spoken like a Southerner (a region of the country I know well) -- many hate him to this day. But his alleged racism was par for the course, especially for that day; he rejected slavery but didn't believe that black and white could live in peace. Even abolitionists believed that slaves should be shipped back to Africa.

by: BlueDeacon

11-17-2009 @ 6:32pm

Spoken like a Southerner (a region of the country I know well) -- many hate him to this day. But his alleged racism was par for the course, especially for that day; he rejected slavery but didn't believe that black and white could live in peace. Even abolitionists believed that slaves should be shipped back to Africa.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:08pm

I'm not so sure of that. The prophets speak of the time, coming, when each man would "sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree." The emphasis is on "his own. . ." God seems to enjoy the prospect of each man having his own property, to enjoy at his own decision and discernment.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:08pm

I'm not so sure of that. The prophets speak of the time, coming, when each man would "sit under his own vine, and under his own fig tree." The emphasis is on "his own. . ." God seems to enjoy the prospect of each man having his own property, to enjoy at his own decision and discernment.

by: ckgmail

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

Did FDR's economic policies fail? Were the CCC and the WPA failures? I was born on a dust bowl farm 1n 1933, and my parents certainly did not think so. My criticism of Obama's economic policies is that they are not bold enough, that we need some direct job creation for the infrastructure.

by: ckgmail

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

Did FDR's economic policies fail? Were the CCC and the WPA failures? I was born on a dust bowl farm 1n 1933, and my parents certainly did not think so. My criticism of Obama's economic policies is that they are not bold enough, that we need some direct job creation for the infrastructure.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

My contention is that it is impossible for President Obama's economic policies to succeed, in the final analysis. He has said that "we will spend ourselves out of this . . .(mess)" and that is an absurdity. We will not do that; and so I cannot postulate what I "would do" if he succeeded. He cannot, just as I cannot spend myself out of bankruptcy. The difference, of course, is that the government can crank up the printing presses, but that only adds to the absurdity.

Please remember, however, that the original discussion was - - can we both "honor" a person as an individual, made in God's image, and at the same time, pray for the failure of his public policies. That was our original subject, and I did not intend to switch it over into specific economics. I wanted really to point out that, while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:13pm

My contention is that it is impossible for President Obama's economic policies to succeed, in the final analysis. He has said that "we will spend ourselves out of this . . .(mess)" and that is an absurdity. We will not do that; and so I cannot postulate what I "would do" if he succeeded. He cannot, just as I cannot spend myself out of bankruptcy. The difference, of course, is that the government can crank up the printing presses, but that only adds to the absurdity.

Please remember, however, that the original discussion was - - can we both "honor" a person as an individual, made in God's image, and at the same time, pray for the failure of his public policies. That was our original subject, and I did not intend to switch it over into specific economics. I wanted really to point out that, while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure.

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:22pm

Well, as a matter of fact, there is a strong historical line of thought that says that FDR's policies were pretty much a failure. That is to say, the unemployment rate of 1937-38 was actually higher than earlier in the Great Depression, say 1933-34, and it was clearly the outbreak of World War II that "enlivened" the U.S. economy. FDR's policies, according to this line of study, did nothing except probably worsen the economic condition of the USA during the late 30's. I personally am attracted by this line of thought, though I am not an expert, so I can only parrot what I read.
I will continue to say this, however - - we simply cannot spend ourselves out of an economic recession of this type. We cannot do it as individuals, and we cannot do it as a society. And since President Obama apparently believes otherwise, he is doomed to failure. And there is no reason for me to answer a question, "but what would you do if he succeeds?" because he cannot. And I continue to wish him failure in the pushing of his public policies along this line. But I wish him no personal harm, nor do I bear him ill will at all. He probably would make a great neighbor; we could have stimulating discussions, to say the least!!

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:22pm

Well, as a matter of fact, there is a strong historical line of thought that says that FDR's policies were pretty much a failure. That is to say, the unemployment rate of 1937-38 was actually higher than earlier in the Great Depression, say 1933-34, and it was clearly the outbreak of World War II that "enlivened" the U.S. economy. FDR's policies, according to this line of study, did nothing except probably worsen the economic condition of the USA during the late 30's. I personally am attracted by this line of thought, though I am not an expert, so I can only parrot what I read.
I will continue to say this, however - - we simply cannot spend ourselves out of an economic recession of this type. We cannot do it as individuals, and we cannot do it as a society. And since President Obama apparently believes otherwise, he is doomed to failure. And there is no reason for me to answer a question, "but what would you do if he succeeds?" because he cannot. And I continue to wish him failure in the pushing of his public policies along this line. But I wish him no personal harm, nor do I bear him ill will at all. He probably would make a great neighbor; we could have stimulating discussions, to say the least!!

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 7:27pm

You're still evading the question.

by: squeaky

11-17-2009 @ 7:27pm

You're still evading the question.

by: jeremythompson

11-17-2009 @ 7:36pm

Is there anything you don't know well?

by: jeremythompson

11-17-2009 @ 7:36pm

Is there anything you don't know well?

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:41pm

No, I am not. I am telling you that, if you asked me to imagine that a circle was actually a square, and then asked me how I would make a wheel, I would say, "there is no answer to that question. The question itself is an absurdity." That is what I am telling you about asking me to imagine President Obama's current economic policies as a success. OK? :)

by: jkc1945

11-17-2009 @ 7:41pm

No, I am not. I am telling you that, if you asked me to imagine that a circle was actually a square, and then asked me how I would make a wheel, I would say, "there is no answer to that question. The question itself is an absurdity." That is what I am telling you about asking me to imagine President Obama's current economic policies as a success. OK? :)

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 8:22pm

So if I have you straight (excusing the fact you still chose not to answer the question) -- if the policies of the US government fail to bring us out of recession and a global financial crisis -- we will then be out of the crisis??? Did you want the Bush stimulus and bail-out to succeed and the Obama one to fail? Or you wanted both to fail so wealth continues to be destroyed and the poorest of the Earth die?

I opposed the US invasion of Iraq. I have never said I hope the US policy to establish an Iraq with a semi-stable democracy that is not at war and not developing wmd's etc. fails. I have never said, "I oppose Federal entanglement with education system--so I hope the policy to have a strong system fails." I have never said, "I oppose capital punishment so I hope it fails to deter crime."

by: letjusticerolldown

11-17-2009 @ 8:22pm

So if I have you straight (excusing the fact you still chose not to answer the question) -- if the policies of the US government fail to bring us out of recession and a global financial crisis -- we will then be out of the crisis??? Did you want the Bush stimulus and bail-out to succeed and the Obama one to fail? Or you wanted both to fail so wealth continues to be destroyed and the poorest of the Earth die?

I opposed the US invasion of Iraq. I have never said I hope the US policy to establish an Iraq with a semi-stable democracy that is not at war and not developing wmd's etc. fails. I have never said, "I oppose Federal entanglement with education system--so I hope the policy to have a strong system fails." I have never said, "I oppose capital punishment so I hope it fails to deter crime."

by: atalex

11-17-2009 @ 8:33pm

"One cannot spend oneself into prosperity."

What a bizarre idea! The entire point of capitalism is to invest your money in such a way that your future profits exceed the amount of your original investment. True, some investments don't pan out, but investment as a whole will produce net profits. If that were not the case, then we should abandon capitalism for some other system post haste. Viewed that way, the economic rationale for providing universal health care is that if people aren't forced to stay with their current employers in order to keep their present health coverage, they will be more willing to take entrepreneurial risks which will pay off for the government in the form of higher tax revenue. Far from socialism, the practical effect of the proposed policies will be to better facilitate capitalism, and the only people who are even trying to argue otherwise are those who work (directly or indirectly) for the narrow set of business interests who fear that universal health care will damage their oligopolies -- i.e. the insurance industry.

by: atalex

11-17-2009 @ 8:33pm

"One cannot spend oneself into prosperity."

What a bizarre idea! The entire point of capitalism is to invest your money in such a way that your future profits exceed the amount of your original investment. True, some investments don't pan out, but investment as a whole will produce net profits. If that were not the case, then we should abandon capitalism for some other system post haste. Viewed that way, the economic rationale for providing universal health care is that if people aren't forced to stay with their current employers in order to keep their present health coverage, they will be more willing to take entrepreneurial risks which will pay off for the government in the form of higher tax revenue. Far from socialism, the practical effect of the proposed policies will be to better facilitate capitalism, and the only people who are even trying to argue otherwise are those who work (directly or indirectly) for the narrow set of business interests who fear that universal health care will damage their oligopolies -- i.e. the insurance industry.

by: JaneinWNY

11-17-2009 @ 8:42pm

"while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure."

If, in your view, his policies are bound to fail and cannot possibly ever succeed, then it isn't clear why you would need to pray for their failure.

Would it be better to pray that God gives him (and all of us) wisdom?

Jane

by: JaneinWNY

11-17-2009 @ 8:42pm

"while I hold President Obama and his family in the care of God, and I find the references to psalm 109 to be repugnant in this case, I still can consistently pray for his policies' failure."

If, in your view, his policies are bound to fail and cannot possibly ever succeed, then it isn't clear why you would need to pray for their failure.

Would it be better to pray that God gives him (and all of us) wisdom?

Jane