What Do Health-Care Reform, the 40-Hour Work Week, Unemployment Insurance, the Minimum Wage, etc., Have in Common?

"in no time at all it will be viewed so positively that we will no longer be able to remember why it took us so long to implement it."

Will that be before or after we pay for it??

Then of course, you're planning on donating your Social Security earnings to the Union Mission. (But I won't hold my breath.)

Actually, the organization with all the guns is the NRA. And the last I checked, they are not considered to be progressive.

Actually, to be quite honest, my wife and I were looking for ways to give more from our current income. Then a few days into this we got my SS statement and how much I've "contributed" (which is the wrong word since I didn't volunteer it, it was taken by force) to Social Security. Looks like an extra 10% could be given to kingdom purposes around the globe, plus a little extra to save for my kids' education. It's too bad that money is being spent on wars and to pay off debts in 100 years.

The point is, SS is a ponzi scheme, like it or not.

And as for the guns, again, the government has the most guns, and apparently the vision of social justice from the so-called progressive camp is that we need those guns to make sure the rest of society falls in line with their agenda of social justice.

What do jobs, insurance and decent wages have in common? They were brought to you by conservatives.

haha, good point. It blows my mind the ignorance of some folks who believe that with good intentions and legislation they can accomplish good things.

Just a few quick comments for those who might be distracted by some of our conservative trolls:)
First, SS does not even come close to meeting any common definition of a "ponzi" scheme. Look up the definitions for yourself. To reference it as such is merely a poor attempt at rhetorical misdirection.
Second, it is passing strange that a follower of Scripture would conclude that governments are not to be involved in economic justice and care for the poor. We are told that all "powers" are ordained by God, for God. Why some think that the issue about which God expresses such concern in Scripture, namely care for the least, is somehow excluded from those "powers" that are ordained "for him," i.e., to serve God's agenda. The idea that Scripture teaches some sort of "pure voluntarism" is even stranger. God did not say, of the Rich Man who merely passed on helping Lazarus, "Oh, well, it's all good, you freely chose not to help." No, the next picture of the Rich Man has him in hell. One could speak similarly of the second half of Matthew 25 or Luke 12. You may want to think any coercion is "tyranny," but this hardly stands even a cursory critique.
And, ljr, jobs, from conservatives? You mean like the Bush years? and brought us insurance???
Happy Thanksgiving, all!

I agree with you on the illegal wars, xfree.
But by your standards, the entire US government is a ponzi scheme.
If you had any guts you'd refuse all government services, stop filing income tax returns and march in the streets against those illegal wars.
The only way America will ever be saved by a band of middle aged libertarians with assault rifles is in the movies.

Get real, xfree.
And have a Happy Thanksgiving.
I'm thankful we didn't get McCain/Palin.
What about you?

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." I wish I had said this, but it was John Kenneth Galbraith. I think of this quote quite often when I read some of the comments on this blog.

LJRD, You don't think progressives own businesses and hire workers?

No doubt, LJRD, it WAS conservatives who brought us insurance industry ponzi schemes -- and the Wall Street ponzi schemes, too.
Why do you think conservatives are fighting regulation of those markets?
Do you think the GOP fights regulation out of libertarian idealism?
No, my dear friend, they fight regulation out of sheer arrogance and greed.

Labor Unions are the direct cause of decent wages for Americans.
Conservatives have always been the enemy of decent wages.
Ever since way before Charles Dickens.

Hope you have food on your table this Thanksgiving.

Just a few quick comments for those who might be distracted by some of our conservative trolls:)
First, SS does not even come close to meeting any common definition of a "ponzi" scheme. Look up the definitions for yourself. To reference it as such is merely a poor attempt at rhetorical misdirection.
Second, it is passing strange that a follower of Scripture would conclude that governments are not to be involved in economic justice and care for the poor. We are told that all "powers" are ordained by God, for God. Why some think that the issue about which God expresses such concern in Scripture, namely care for the least, is somehow excluded from those "powers" that are ordained "for him," i.e., to serve God's agenda. The idea that Scripture teaches some sort of "pure voluntarism" is even stranger. God did not say, of the Rich Man who merely passed on helping Lazarus, "Oh, well, it's all good, you freely chose not to help." No, the next picture of the Rich Man has him in hell. One could speak similarly of the second half of Matthew 25 or Luke 12. You may want to think any coercion is "tyranny," but this hardly stands even a cursory critique.
And, ljr, jobs, from conservatives? You mean like the Bush years? and brought us insurance???
Happy Thanksgiving, all!

Unfortunately, no, I did not see the error in the ways of conservatism. So with specifically the Iraq war, yes at this point it's "all talk," because it's more an admission of wrong rhetoric and philosophy.

Bush cut taxes but the revenue stream to the gov't was greater by the end of the Bush Administration than it was in the beginning. That doesn't excuse it, however, because I'm equally against the Federal Reserve printing money, so of course the revenue stream would be greater. And Clinton gets kudos for at least reducing the debt of the "official budget," but compared to the amount of debt we have, it was a pittance. It will take real reform to actually eliminate our debt in the next generation.

So the modern moral liberal uses the oldest excuse of all , the devil gave me the idea to take what was not mine , blame him .

It's a good thing we can celebrate capitalism for Thanksgiving, cuz the first few years of socialism (it wasn't called that then) didn't work out for the Pilgrims. (To be clear, I celebrate God's blessings, not capitalism itself.)

I respect those who can walk and talk the same story.
This is why hypocrisy is such a hot button for me.

In my opinion, the philosophical core of libertarianism is hypocritical selfishness.
Followers of libertarianism place themselves inside an impossible fantasy world which has never existed anywhere and can never be sustained in reality.

Yeah, I'm thankful, too. The government doesn't have to be a ponzi scheme. Some state governments don't run deficits, partly because they don't have a banking cartel to print money for them. Other nations like Georgia have eliminated all debt and run surpluses.

Wanna hear something from a non-middle aged libertarian? If our government spent the next generation eliminating the national debt of 12 trillion, our grandkids could probably enjoy a universal health care scenario where things are paid for not out of debt but out of a surplus.

LJRD, You don't think progressives own businesses and hire workers?

No doubt, LJRD, it WAS conservatives who brought us insurance industry ponzi schemes -- and the Wall Street ponzi schemes, too.
Why do you think conservatives are fighting regulation of those markets?
Do you think the GOP fights regulation out of libertarian idealism?
No, my dear friend, they fight regulation out of sheer arrogance and greed.

Labor Unions are the direct cause of decent wages for Americans.
Conservatives have always been the enemy of decent wages.
Ever since way before Charles Dickens.

Hope you have food on your table this Thanksgiving.

I've heard a lot of stories about the first thanksgiving, xfree.
But the political screed you linked to at the von Mises libertarian website is a total crock of libertarian hogwash.

What really happened was the Pilgrims were rescued from starvation by a merciful, socialist native American tribe.

It appears the next wave of immigrants to America learned from the example of the Pilgrims:

Although Indians and Pilgrims joined together for a meal of thanksgiving in 1621, the Indians didn't fare so well at other thanksgiving observances. Many towns in New England held thanksgiving days to celebrate victories over the Natives. In 1641, a raid against the members of the Pequot tribe in Connecticut was very successful, and the churches declared a day of "thanksgiving" to celebrate. During this feast, the decapitated heads of Natives were kicked through the streets of Manhattan.

Was this the sordid beginning of Wall Street capitalism?

It blows my mind the ignorance of some folks who think nothing can be done to make this world a better place -- those who think this is the best of all possible worlds and anything you can think of to make things better will only make things worse.

With all due respect, I do not live in a fantasy world. I don't have any beliefs that if a free society existed, everything would be perfect. But it would be better than a totalitarian state, and it would be better than a democratic socialist state. The non-existence of a desired future society does not negate principles of liberty and moral boundaries.

Even so, what is wrong to seek out what we believe is a "fantasy world"? Isn't that in part why Christians look forward to the Kingdom fully realized in the future? Does that not qualify as "fantasy"? Or have you no Christian hope?

Let me be clear again (since you enjoy putting words and ideas in my mouth): a "libertarian world" would not be free from sin, free from evil, and free from strife. But neither would whatever world you would rather shape. I simply believe that all humans deserve equal respect, equal dignity, and equal liberty. No exceptions. Somehow you seem to believe that some human beings aren't worthy or valuable enough to be free from the controls and power of others. In my book, it is Christian dignity that respect others, even when we don't agree with their own actions. It's one thing to protect somebody from the harmful actions of another. It's quite another to tell others how to live.

So the modern moral liberal uses the oldest excuse of all , the devil gave me the idea to take what was not mine , blame him .

It's a good thing we can celebrate capitalism for Thanksgiving, cuz the first few years of socialism (it wasn't called that then) didn't work out for the Pilgrims. (To be clear, I celebrate God's blessings, not capitalism itself.)

"How is a lot of that going to be done without legislation?"
If you think Jesus came to wield a sword and build a Kingdom, you are mistaken. If you believe in the power of the gospel of peace, you will not need a sword. And if you have no other alternatives to building for a peaceful society, or building for the kingdom of God, than to legislate morality and justice by the sword, perhaps your gospel isn't as powerful as you believe it to be.

I don't live under the assumption that all of my ideas about compassion, justice, and morality will be the solution to society's ills. Living under the assumption that legislation will solve all of that is neither imaginative nor Christian. Libertarians do not believe complete economic freedom will "solve everything" because libertarians don't believe anything will "solve everything." We live in a world where our ideal future is pursued under the banner of hope and liberty. That doesn't negate the need for laws and boundaries of moral order (hence a civil rights movement); rather, it gives meaning to rules and regulations: free people to do that which they believe is best for their own lives, and prevent people from aggressing one's neighbor (or punish them for doing it).

When the children of poor people are enslaved by the government to specific failing educational institutions, don't blame businesses or the "white man." When the very little money poor people have is being taken from them and given to the wealthy by way of inflationary spending and wealth redistribution by the central bank, don't blame the free market. When their children are being sent to war because that's their "only way out" (thru the military scholarship promises), don't blame anybody but the government.

I've heard a lot of stories about the first thanksgiving, xfree.
But the political screed you linked to at the von Mises libertarian website is a total crock of libertarian hogwash.

What really happened was the Pilgrims were rescued from starvation by a merciful, socialist native American tribe.

It appears the next wave of immigrants to America learned from the example of the Pilgrims:

Although Indians and Pilgrims joined together for a meal of thanksgiving in 1621, the Indians didn't fare so well at other thanksgiving observances. Many towns in New England held thanksgiving days to celebrate victories over the Natives. In 1641, a raid against the members of the Pequot tribe in Connecticut was very successful, and the churches declared a day of "thanksgiving" to celebrate. During this feast, the decapitated heads of Natives were kicked through the streets of Manhattan.

Was this the sordid beginning of Wall Street capitalism?

"How is a lot of that going to be done without legislation?"
If you think Jesus came to wield a sword and build a Kingdom, you are mistaken. If you believe in the power of the gospel of peace, you will not need a sword. And if you have no other alternatives to building for a peaceful society, or building for the kingdom of God, than to legislate morality and justice by the sword, perhaps your gospel isn't as powerful as you believe it to be.

I don't live under the assumption that all of my ideas about compassion, justice, and morality will be the solution to society's ills. Living under the assumption that legislation will solve all of that is neither imaginative nor Christian. Libertarians do not believe complete economic freedom will "solve everything" because libertarians don't believe anything will "solve everything." We live in a world where our ideal future is pursued under the banner of hope and liberty. That doesn't negate the need for laws and boundaries of moral order (hence a civil rights movement); rather, it gives meaning to rules and regulations: free people to do that which they believe is best for their own lives, and prevent people from aggressing one's neighbor (or punish them for doing it).

When the children of poor people are enslaved by the government to specific failing educational institutions, don't blame businesses or the "white man." When the very little money poor people have is being taken from them and given to the wealthy by way of inflationary spending and wealth redistribution by the central bank, don't blame the free market. When their children are being sent to war because that's their "only way out" (thru the military scholarship promises), don't blame anybody but the government.