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Why Poverty Persists in a World of Wealth

The forthcoming documentary The End of Poverty? opens with the question "Why does poverty persist in a world of growing wealth?" Through a series of interviews with newsworthy leaders like John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, Bolivia's Vice President Alvaro Garcia Linera, and Nobel Prize winners in economics, filmmaker Philippe Diaz traces the historical roots of this current worldwide poverty crisis back to exploitative practices that began during colonial times. In a touch of irony, most of the economists Diaz interviewed for this film in 2006 predicted that the current financial crisis was inevitable because the current policies such as unfair debt, trade, and tax policies penalized those countries even further. The solution offered by these experts to remedy this worldwide problem is justice, not charity.

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Given the role charitable organizations play in the Global South, I wondered why international charities and figures such as Jeffrey Sachs, author of The End of Poverty, were not included in the piece. In the director's statement, Diaz noted that his original intent was to document both sides of the poverty debate. As he stated:

We even filmed several experts who were proponents of the "progress and technology will solve everything" mindset which supports the notion that mosquito nets and bags of fertilizer could solve the poverty. This is the theory that Bono's economic sidekick, Jeffrey Sachs, has touted all around the world. But the first cut of the film was more than three hours long, so many of these interviews were left on the hard drive of the editing system.

However, the real stars of the film were not the experts but those living in the Africa and Latin America on a dollar a day or less. A seemingly dry statistic such as that fact that currently 20% of the planet's population uses 80% of its resources and consumes 30% more than the planet can regenerate comes to life when one confronts stories from those directly impacted by this crisis. For example, a worker from Bolivia could barely take care of his family's basic needs on his $4.50 a day income when the World Bank pressured the government to privatize the water in the 1990s. The additional $7.50 he now had to pay for water meant that he could not even provide his family with this essential necessity. See Frontline/World for a timeline of this story.

Anyone who doubts that our individual actions have a ripple effect would benefit from hearing the range of stories from those who are directly impacted by decisions made by governments and multinational corporations. Still, as the closing credits rolled, I found myself reflecting on the myriad grassroots endeavors that crossed my desk. Just how effective were tools such as education and micro-loans in helping to eradicate poverty?

As if on cue, the UPS delivery person rang my door bell with a review copy of Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide. In this book, Nicholas D. Kristof and Cheryl WuDunn tell the stories of women being abused around the world as a result of sex trafficking and forced prostitution, gender-based violence, including honor killings, and mass rape and maternal mortality. Even though some of these stories were even harder to read than the visual images I saw in The End of Poverty?, I found inspiration in these reports of how even one individual brought healing to a situation that upon first glance seemed hopeless.

In particular, I was struck by the story of Mukhtaran Mai, a woman I first met when I caught a screening of the documentary Shame during the 2007 Tribeca Film Festival. After she was brutally gang raped, she used the reparations money granted to her by the Pakistani government to set up the first school for girls in her hometown of Meerwala, hoping to empower the next generation of women. If this admittedly illiterate woman can find her voice and in her quest for justice transform her community, what prevents us from doing likewise?

Missiologist and blogger Andrew Jones (Tall Skinny Kiwi) predicts the role of the church in social justice endeavors. "Emerging church energies will be re-directed from creative worship arts to creative social enterprises which will enable long term sustainability. In both realms, women will come to the front as some of the most successful missional entrepreneurs." If women-led social enterprise organizations like Nomi Network and Sweet Notions are indicative of the changes predicated by Jones, then as I wait in darkness for Christ to come into the world, I definitely see a lighted Advent candle that beckons me to move forward in faith.

portrait-becky-garrisonBecky Garrison's next book Jesus Died for This?: A Satirist's Search for the Risen Christ will be published by Zondervan in August 2010.

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by: Morna

12-05-2009 @ 3:28am

"You can help them any time you want" is not in any version of the Bible I have read. Could you tell us what version you use so I can look it up? Thanks.

by: John Mulholland

12-05-2009 @ 12:27pm

Mark 14:7.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 2:53pm

Is that a version? That's a verse. Clearly you aren't really interested in dialogue on this site. I have yet to see you give an actual answer to questions anyone asks you. The trend I see in your posts is that when someone challenges you position, your best defense is to be cryptic and evasive.

by: Morna

12-05-2009 @ 3:28am

"You can help them any time you want" is not in any version of the Bible I have read. Could you tell us what version you use so I can look it up? Thanks.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 4:39pm

To get to the other side...

by: John Mulholland

12-05-2009 @ 12:27pm

Mark 14:7.

by: scat

12-07-2009 @ 4:25pm

I know what you said. I was simply going beyond what you said.
The whole subject of why people are poor started well before your comment.
]I was not just talking about your beliefs. I'll take you at your word for what you believe. I was talking about what I believe.

by: JoannaCW

12-05-2009 @ 9:13pm

In this context, the chief sinners are me and my ilk (US citizens, and other rich folk) who waste far more than our share (the sin) while others go without what they need (the consequences). That's the general statement--there are various specifics involved, such as the fact that the major CO2 emitting nations are not the nations most threatened by rising sea levels, or the fact that some people are able to live without doing any of the physical work required for their survival because other people are doing excessive amounts of that work and being poorly compensated.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 2:53pm

Is that a version? That's a verse. Clearly you aren't really interested in dialogue on this site. I have yet to see you give an actual answer to questions anyone asks you. The trend I see in your posts is that when someone challenges you position, your best defense is to be cryptic and evasive.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 4:39pm

To get to the other side...

by: JoannaCW

12-05-2009 @ 9:13pm

In this context, the chief sinners are me and my ilk (US citizens, and other rich folk) who waste far more than our share (the sin) while others go without what they need (the consequences). That's the general statement--there are various specifics involved, such as the fact that the major CO2 emitting nations are not the nations most threatened by rising sea levels, or the fact that some people are able to live without doing any of the physical work required for their survival because other people are doing excessive amounts of that work and being poorly compensated.

by: scat

12-07-2009 @ 2:25pm

I know what you said. I was simply going beyond what you said.
The whole subject of why people are poor started well before your comment.
]I was not just talking about your beliefs. I'll take you at your word for what you believe. I was talking about what I believe.

by: xfree9

12-07-2009 @ 11:09am

I'm not really sure how my beliefs lead to that because I don't believe some people are wealthy or poor based on merit. I've said nothing of the sort, neither here nor anywhere. I've neither met nor read serious libertarians who believe poor people are lazy and rich people are virtuous. It has little to nothing to do with either.

by: John Mulholland

12-07-2009 @ 1:40am

I'm sorry. The verse is Mark 14:7, version NIV.

by: scat

12-06-2009 @ 10:40pm

That leads to the problem with such simplistic answers like "people are poor because they are lazy and sinful". If that is true, then people who are relatively wealthy must be virtuouis and hard-working. Now, most of us aren't naive enough to believe that.

I don't think God rewards us like Santa, depending on whether we are naughty or nice. and His reward is not likely to be transient material, but rather of the spirit. I have come to believe that if there is any spiritual reason for some to be poor it is to test the beleifs of those who are not. In other words, put you beliefs into action and help those less fortunate to the extent of giving up our own desires for worldly stuff. Just like Jesus instructed the young man who asked what he needed to do to follow him. Beleiving in Jesus, believing in God is more than just aclnowledging their existence. It is accepting in all ways their will for our lives.

To think of God as flining some babies into desperate proverty because thier parents are lazy and sinful is just unimaginable. As is the converse -- to reward cheating, lying, destructive successful business people with material comfort as though they had earned it with their virtute.

by: kirkdickinson

12-03-2009 @ 7:38pm

Poverty exist because of the original sin.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We all have Adams sin nature
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We are wicked to the heart
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus said we will always have the poor
Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

So there will always be poor people. Jesus said to help them if you can.

I think poverty exists because of two main reasons:
Laziness
and
Evil

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Evil is a great part of poverty also. Evil Rulers, Evil People, Evil Companies who steal the fruit of one persons labor for their own satisfaction.

I will follow this discussion with interest.

by: kirkdickinson

12-03-2009 @ 7:38pm

Poverty exist because of the original sin.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We all have Adams sin nature
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We are wicked to the heart
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus said we will always have the poor
Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

So there will always be poor people. Jesus said to help them if you can.

I think poverty exists because of two main reasons:
Laziness
and
Evil

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Evil is a great part of poverty also. Evil Rulers, Evil People, Evil Companies who steal the fruit of one persons labor for their own satisfaction.

I will follow this discussion with interest.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

12-04-2009 @ 3:21am

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Yes, but I would suggest that the sloth be fed once or twice to show willingness and sincerity. Kind of a teaser to get a job.

As for the waves we make with our decisions, I doubt they compare in significance to positive effort. Kind of like splashing at one of those hot-tub jets.

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12-03-2009 @ 10:06pm

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by: scat

12-07-2009 @ 4:25pm

I know what you said. I was simply going beyond what you said.
The whole subject of why people are poor started well before your comment.
]I was not just talking about your beliefs. I'll take you at your word for what you believe. I was talking about what I believe.

by: ford49

12-04-2009 @ 3:49am

Great simplistic biblical rationalizing....there are several hundred million people in the world who toil with tremendous effort to just to make it from day to day who would be greatly offended with your explanation saying that the reason for their situation was solely because of evil or their laziness. Having traveled in the third world I can tell you respectfully that I am offended by this simplistic rationalization. Scripture also has over two thousand references regarding what our obligations are toward the poor and less fortunate. As a follower of Christ, I am not resigned to the plight of the poor but energized by the prospect of ministring to the poor and being in the presence of Jesus. As scripture also tells us, to those who have much, much is required.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 12:14pm

I'll quote Jesus..."The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want."

Point being, it's not your role to tell me how to honor God.

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 1:26pm

Ford49,

No man can bind another man's conscience for what God has for him to do. I can tell you what I think, or what I see in a couple of verses, but you have to read the bible and pray and decide in your own heart what God is telling you through his word. No cult can ever survive it they encourage their members to test the words of their leaders by the Word of God in the bible.

I am not saying that helping the poor is a bad thing. It is not. Jesus had a burden for the poor. I just realized last night that Jesus caused his birth to be in a stable so that the poor Shepherds could come. The Shepherds were poor and outcasts in that society, and if Jesus was born even in a lowly inn, the Shepherds would not have been allowed to enter to worship him. By Jesus's birth alone, he makes it clear that he is accessible even by the poorest outcasts.

Do you agree that there would be no poverty in the world if there were no evil? I believe that the "original sin" is what has ruined this world that God created perfect.

One of the richest countries in the world natural resource wise is Nigeria, they have oil, diamonds, gold, etc..., but it is one of the poorest countries in the world for their population. Why is that? I say it is so because of Evil Rulers and corruption of their government.

Gotta get back to work before my boss starts thinking I am Lazy. :)

Kirk

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:45pm

Is that what He really meant when you look at the context, not just of that passage, but of His entire life and ministry?As for whether it is anyone's role to tell anyone else how to honor God...I guess if that were true, we would have no need of evangelists, teachers, prophets, pastors, priests, spiritual directors, or ministers. We should just all be on our own deciding for ourselves what God wants us to do without any outside guidance or influence. The ultimate end of that is to choose our own morality and use our reading of Scripture to justify it.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:51pm

That was my first reaction, but I can't argue against the point--the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin. If anything, the point goes without saying, but is one we can all agree on.

The problem is if such statements are used to dismiss the issue with a shrug and to justify inaction. I don't think that was what he meant, but he can expand on that if he chooses.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:19pm

"Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be...Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?"

1 Corinthians 12

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

12-04-2009 @ 3:21am

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Yes, but I would suggest that the sloth be fed once or twice to show willingness and sincerity. Kind of a teaser to get a job.

As for the waves we make with our decisions, I doubt they compare in significance to positive effort. Kind of like splashing at one of those hot-tub jets.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 3:31pm

Not sure what your point is. Care to expand?

by: scat

12-07-2009 @ 2:25pm

I know what you said. I was simply going beyond what you said.
The whole subject of why people are poor started well before your comment.
]I was not just talking about your beliefs. I'll take you at your word for what you believe. I was talking about what I believe.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:55pm

You brought up, "prophets, et, al" so I thought I'd comment on it. Each person is not a prophet. While each person is indeed called to act justly, love mercy, etc, that will look different according to our own giftedness.

by: ford49

12-04-2009 @ 3:49am

Great simplistic biblical rationalizing....there are several hundred million people in the world who toil with tremendous effort to just to make it from day to day who would be greatly offended with your explanation saying that the reason for their situation was solely because of evil or their laziness. Having traveled in the third world I can tell you respectfully that I am offended by this simplistic rationalization. Scripture also has over two thousand references regarding what our obligations are toward the poor and less fortunate. As a follower of Christ, I am not resigned to the plight of the poor but energized by the prospect of ministring to the poor and being in the presence of Jesus. As scripture also tells us, to those who have much, much is required.

by: xfree9

12-07-2009 @ 11:09am

I'm not really sure how my beliefs lead to that because I don't believe some people are wealthy or poor based on merit. I've said nothing of the sort, neither here nor anywhere. I've neither met nor read serious libertarians who believe poor people are lazy and rich people are virtuous. It has little to nothing to do with either.

by: John Mulholland

12-07-2009 @ 1:40am

I'm sorry. The verse is Mark 14:7, version NIV.

by: scat

12-06-2009 @ 10:40pm

That leads to the problem with such simplistic answers like "people are poor because they are lazy and sinful". If that is true, then people who are relatively wealthy must be virtuouis and hard-working. Now, most of us aren't naive enough to believe that.

I don't think God rewards us like Santa, depending on whether we are naughty or nice. and His reward is not likely to be transient material, but rather of the spirit. I have come to believe that if there is any spiritual reason for some to be poor it is to test the beleifs of those who are not. In other words, put you beliefs into action and help those less fortunate to the extent of giving up our own desires for worldly stuff. Just like Jesus instructed the young man who asked what he needed to do to follow him. Beleiving in Jesus, believing in God is more than just aclnowledging their existence. It is accepting in all ways their will for our lives.

To think of God as flining some babies into desperate proverty because thier parents are lazy and sinful is just unimaginable. As is the converse -- to reward cheating, lying, destructive successful business people with material comfort as though they had earned it with their virtute.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:17pm

As I read your original point, you are saying no one has the right to tell anyone else how to honor God. Is that what you meant to say?

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 12:14pm

I'll quote Jesus..."The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want."

Point being, it's not your role to tell me how to honor God.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 4:36pm

Depends of your definition of "how".

What does it mean to act justly, and love mercy? How might those expressions differ from person to person?

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 1:26pm

Ford49,

No man can bind another man's conscience for what God has for him to do. I can tell you what I think, or what I see in a couple of verses, but you have to read the bible and pray and decide in your own heart what God is telling you through his word. No cult can ever survive it they encourage their members to test the words of their leaders by the Word of God in the bible.

I am not saying that helping the poor is a bad thing. It is not. Jesus had a burden for the poor. I just realized last night that Jesus caused his birth to be in a stable so that the poor Shepherds could come. The Shepherds were poor and outcasts in that society, and if Jesus was born even in a lowly inn, the Shepherds would not have been allowed to enter to worship him. By Jesus's birth alone, he makes it clear that he is accessible even by the poorest outcasts.

Do you agree that there would be no poverty in the world if there were no evil? I believe that the "original sin" is what has ruined this world that God created perfect.

One of the richest countries in the world natural resource wise is Nigeria, they have oil, diamonds, gold, etc..., but it is one of the poorest countries in the world for their population. Why is that? I say it is so because of Evil Rulers and corruption of their government.

Gotta get back to work before my boss starts thinking I am Lazy. :)

Kirk

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:53pm

I think squeaky is requesting a simple clarification of what you meant in your initial assertion. So squeaky restated it to check if that is your meaning. You say, "It depends." And ask questions.

So what about going back and making a direct clarification??????

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:57pm

Thanks, letjustice. Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:59pm

Well, now that we solved "poverty" by noting it to be a result of the fall--why don't we just go ahead and solve eternal damnation, evil, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, idolatry, sin, disease and death.

Wow, that was a hard days work. Let's sign out and go to Heaven.

Isn't the Gospel about the fact the problem was solved in a hard day's work on Calvary? And that there are a group of folks living and praying for the results of that great work to be made manifest more fully. Maybe there is still something to do--even though the problem has been solved.

Let's get on with it.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:45pm

Is that what He really meant when you look at the context, not just of that passage, but of His entire life and ministry?As for whether it is anyone's role to tell anyone else how to honor God...I guess if that were true, we would have no need of evangelists, teachers, prophets, pastors, priests, spiritual directors, or ministers. We should just all be on our own deciding for ourselves what God wants us to do without any outside guidance or influence. The ultimate end of that is to choose our own morality and use our reading of Scripture to justify it.

by: JoannaCW

12-04-2009 @ 5:41pm

'the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin.'
Yes, globally, but as with some other sins the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:51pm

That was my first reaction, but I can't argue against the point--the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin. If anything, the point goes without saying, but is one we can all agree on.

The problem is if such statements are used to dismiss the issue with a shrug and to justify inaction. I don't think that was what he meant, but he can expand on that if he chooses.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:19pm

"Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be...Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?"

1 Corinthians 12

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:40pm

"the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners."

What do you mean by that? Who are the chief sinners? What are the chief consequences?

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 3:31pm

Not sure what your point is. Care to expand?

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 6:43pm

We have solved nothing and I didn't say we had.

Jesus Christ himself was here on earth and didn't solve poverty or hunger at that time. You and I aren't going to solve it either.

We can and should offer Christian charity. Many people not claiming to be Christians do that also.

Not only should Christians be charitable, they should also share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is an awfully bad example for Christians to have people like Gandhi say "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I think that shows us all that we should be more Christlike.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:54pm

This all started off with the question, "Why poverty persists..."

The article states something about the current poverty crisis going back to colonialism. I disagree with the assertion, kirkdickinson stated quite well what the problem is. Of course practically speaking, his explanation is not filling stomachs, it does indeed address the intellectual issue at hand. I found it humorous that a Christian apologetic would be attacked. Of course we should try to address this issue, we are mandated by scripture. However, it is not going to go away. The poor will always be with us.

How you might address this problem may indeed be different than how I might. I do not see just "one way" to do so in the Bible.

About the question...depends on who is doing the telling.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 7:22pm

I'm answering up here because the thread is too compressed.

The apologetic was "attacked" because kirk seemed to be dismissing the issue. It's an apologetic that is scripturally valid, but we could say the same thing about any other problem that faces the world, so it's pretty much a moot point. The way kirk presented the point could be interpreted as a dismissive oversimplification of a complex problem, and can be interpreted as him saying we don't need to do anything about it. I don't think he meant it that way, but as you can tell from the responses, several people did.

Certainly, I have seen the verse you quoted used by those who are saying just that, however. They are essentially using that verse to justify this attitude: "The poor are with us always, so why bother trying to deal with poverty?" And from the cryptic manner in which you stated and used the comment, one could easily interpret you to mean just that.

Your responses to my requests for clarification have been equally cryptic and vague.

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by: kirkdickinson

12-03-2009 @ 7:38pm

Poverty exist because of the original sin.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We all have Adams sin nature
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We are wicked to the heart
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus said we will always have the poor
Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

So there will always be poor people. Jesus said to help them if you can.

I think poverty exists because of two main reasons:
Laziness
and
Evil

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Evil is a great part of poverty also. Evil Rulers, Evil People, Evil Companies who steal the fruit of one persons labor for their own satisfaction.

I will follow this discussion with interest.

by: kirkdickinson

12-03-2009 @ 7:38pm

Poverty exist because of the original sin.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We all have Adams sin nature
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

We are wicked to the heart
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus said we will always have the poor
Mat 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

So there will always be poor people. Jesus said to help them if you can.

I think poverty exists because of two main reasons:
Laziness
and
Evil

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Evil is a great part of poverty also. Evil Rulers, Evil People, Evil Companies who steal the fruit of one persons labor for their own satisfaction.

I will follow this discussion with interest.

by: uberVU - social comments

12-03-2009 @ 10:06pm

Social comments and analytics for this post...

This post was mentioned on Twitter by sojourners: Why Poverty Persists in a World of Wealth
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by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

12-04-2009 @ 3:21am

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Yes, but I would suggest that the sloth be fed once or twice to show willingness and sincerity. Kind of a teaser to get a job.

As for the waves we make with our decisions, I doubt they compare in significance to positive effort. Kind of like splashing at one of those hot-tub jets.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

12-04-2009 @ 3:21am

Laziness causes poverty and the bible shows that we shouldn't make an effort to help people who are able, but not willing to work.

II Thes 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Yes, but I would suggest that the sloth be fed once or twice to show willingness and sincerity. Kind of a teaser to get a job.

As for the waves we make with our decisions, I doubt they compare in significance to positive effort. Kind of like splashing at one of those hot-tub jets.

by: ford49

12-04-2009 @ 3:49am

Great simplistic biblical rationalizing....there are several hundred million people in the world who toil with tremendous effort to just to make it from day to day who would be greatly offended with your explanation saying that the reason for their situation was solely because of evil or their laziness. Having traveled in the third world I can tell you respectfully that I am offended by this simplistic rationalization. Scripture also has over two thousand references regarding what our obligations are toward the poor and less fortunate. As a follower of Christ, I am not resigned to the plight of the poor but energized by the prospect of ministring to the poor and being in the presence of Jesus. As scripture also tells us, to those who have much, much is required.

by: ford49

12-04-2009 @ 3:49am

Great simplistic biblical rationalizing....there are several hundred million people in the world who toil with tremendous effort to just to make it from day to day who would be greatly offended with your explanation saying that the reason for their situation was solely because of evil or their laziness. Having traveled in the third world I can tell you respectfully that I am offended by this simplistic rationalization. Scripture also has over two thousand references regarding what our obligations are toward the poor and less fortunate. As a follower of Christ, I am not resigned to the plight of the poor but energized by the prospect of ministring to the poor and being in the presence of Jesus. As scripture also tells us, to those who have much, much is required.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 12:14pm

I'll quote Jesus..."The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want."

Point being, it's not your role to tell me how to honor God.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 12:14pm

I'll quote Jesus..."The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want."

Point being, it's not your role to tell me how to honor God.

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 1:26pm

Ford49,

No man can bind another man's conscience for what God has for him to do. I can tell you what I think, or what I see in a couple of verses, but you have to read the bible and pray and decide in your own heart what God is telling you through his word. No cult can ever survive it they encourage their members to test the words of their leaders by the Word of God in the bible.

I am not saying that helping the poor is a bad thing. It is not. Jesus had a burden for the poor. I just realized last night that Jesus caused his birth to be in a stable so that the poor Shepherds could come. The Shepherds were poor and outcasts in that society, and if Jesus was born even in a lowly inn, the Shepherds would not have been allowed to enter to worship him. By Jesus's birth alone, he makes it clear that he is accessible even by the poorest outcasts.

Do you agree that there would be no poverty in the world if there were no evil? I believe that the "original sin" is what has ruined this world that God created perfect.

One of the richest countries in the world natural resource wise is Nigeria, they have oil, diamonds, gold, etc..., but it is one of the poorest countries in the world for their population. Why is that? I say it is so because of Evil Rulers and corruption of their government.

Gotta get back to work before my boss starts thinking I am Lazy. :)

Kirk

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 1:26pm

Ford49,

No man can bind another man's conscience for what God has for him to do. I can tell you what I think, or what I see in a couple of verses, but you have to read the bible and pray and decide in your own heart what God is telling you through his word. No cult can ever survive it they encourage their members to test the words of their leaders by the Word of God in the bible.

I am not saying that helping the poor is a bad thing. It is not. Jesus had a burden for the poor. I just realized last night that Jesus caused his birth to be in a stable so that the poor Shepherds could come. The Shepherds were poor and outcasts in that society, and if Jesus was born even in a lowly inn, the Shepherds would not have been allowed to enter to worship him. By Jesus's birth alone, he makes it clear that he is accessible even by the poorest outcasts.

Do you agree that there would be no poverty in the world if there were no evil? I believe that the "original sin" is what has ruined this world that God created perfect.

One of the richest countries in the world natural resource wise is Nigeria, they have oil, diamonds, gold, etc..., but it is one of the poorest countries in the world for their population. Why is that? I say it is so because of Evil Rulers and corruption of their government.

Gotta get back to work before my boss starts thinking I am Lazy. :)

Kirk

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:45pm

Is that what He really meant when you look at the context, not just of that passage, but of His entire life and ministry?As for whether it is anyone's role to tell anyone else how to honor God...I guess if that were true, we would have no need of evangelists, teachers, prophets, pastors, priests, spiritual directors, or ministers. We should just all be on our own deciding for ourselves what God wants us to do without any outside guidance or influence. The ultimate end of that is to choose our own morality and use our reading of Scripture to justify it.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:45pm

Is that what He really meant when you look at the context, not just of that passage, but of His entire life and ministry?As for whether it is anyone's role to tell anyone else how to honor God...I guess if that were true, we would have no need of evangelists, teachers, prophets, pastors, priests, spiritual directors, or ministers. We should just all be on our own deciding for ourselves what God wants us to do without any outside guidance or influence. The ultimate end of that is to choose our own morality and use our reading of Scripture to justify it.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:51pm

That was my first reaction, but I can't argue against the point--the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin. If anything, the point goes without saying, but is one we can all agree on.

The problem is if such statements are used to dismiss the issue with a shrug and to justify inaction. I don't think that was what he meant, but he can expand on that if he chooses.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 2:51pm

That was my first reaction, but I can't argue against the point--the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin. If anything, the point goes without saying, but is one we can all agree on.

The problem is if such statements are used to dismiss the issue with a shrug and to justify inaction. I don't think that was what he meant, but he can expand on that if he chooses.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:19pm

"Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be...Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?"

1 Corinthians 12

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:19pm

"Now the body is not made up of one part but of many...If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be...Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?"

1 Corinthians 12

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 3:31pm

Not sure what your point is. Care to expand?

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 3:31pm

Not sure what your point is. Care to expand?

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:55pm

You brought up, "prophets, et, al" so I thought I'd comment on it. Each person is not a prophet. While each person is indeed called to act justly, love mercy, etc, that will look different according to our own giftedness.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 3:55pm

You brought up, "prophets, et, al" so I thought I'd comment on it. Each person is not a prophet. While each person is indeed called to act justly, love mercy, etc, that will look different according to our own giftedness.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:17pm

As I read your original point, you are saying no one has the right to tell anyone else how to honor God. Is that what you meant to say?

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:17pm

As I read your original point, you are saying no one has the right to tell anyone else how to honor God. Is that what you meant to say?

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 4:36pm

Depends of your definition of "how".

What does it mean to act justly, and love mercy? How might those expressions differ from person to person?

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 4:36pm

Depends of your definition of "how".

What does it mean to act justly, and love mercy? How might those expressions differ from person to person?

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:53pm

I think squeaky is requesting a simple clarification of what you meant in your initial assertion. So squeaky restated it to check if that is your meaning. You say, "It depends." And ask questions.

So what about going back and making a direct clarification??????

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:53pm

I think squeaky is requesting a simple clarification of what you meant in your initial assertion. So squeaky restated it to check if that is your meaning. You say, "It depends." And ask questions.

So what about going back and making a direct clarification??????

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:57pm

Thanks, letjustice. Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 4:57pm

Thanks, letjustice. Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:59pm

Well, now that we solved "poverty" by noting it to be a result of the fall--why don't we just go ahead and solve eternal damnation, evil, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, idolatry, sin, disease and death.

Wow, that was a hard days work. Let's sign out and go to Heaven.

Isn't the Gospel about the fact the problem was solved in a hard day's work on Calvary? And that there are a group of folks living and praying for the results of that great work to be made manifest more fully. Maybe there is still something to do--even though the problem has been solved.

Let's get on with it.

by: letjusticerolldown

12-04-2009 @ 4:59pm

Well, now that we solved "poverty" by noting it to be a result of the fall--why don't we just go ahead and solve eternal damnation, evil, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, idolatry, sin, disease and death.

Wow, that was a hard days work. Let's sign out and go to Heaven.

Isn't the Gospel about the fact the problem was solved in a hard day's work on Calvary? And that there are a group of folks living and praying for the results of that great work to be made manifest more fully. Maybe there is still something to do--even though the problem has been solved.

Let's get on with it.

by: JoannaCW

12-04-2009 @ 5:41pm

'the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin.'
Yes, globally, but as with some other sins the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners.

by: JoannaCW

12-04-2009 @ 5:41pm

'the ultimate source of poverty is evil and sin.'
Yes, globally, but as with some other sins the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:40pm

"the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners."

What do you mean by that? Who are the chief sinners? What are the chief consequences?

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:40pm

"the chief consequences don't fall upon the chief sinners."

What do you mean by that? Who are the chief sinners? What are the chief consequences?

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 6:43pm

We have solved nothing and I didn't say we had.

Jesus Christ himself was here on earth and didn't solve poverty or hunger at that time. You and I aren't going to solve it either.

We can and should offer Christian charity. Many people not claiming to be Christians do that also.

Not only should Christians be charitable, they should also share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is an awfully bad example for Christians to have people like Gandhi say "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I think that shows us all that we should be more Christlike.

by: kirkdickinson

12-04-2009 @ 6:43pm

We have solved nothing and I didn't say we had.

Jesus Christ himself was here on earth and didn't solve poverty or hunger at that time. You and I aren't going to solve it either.

We can and should offer Christian charity. Many people not claiming to be Christians do that also.

Not only should Christians be charitable, they should also share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is an awfully bad example for Christians to have people like Gandhi say "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I think that shows us all that we should be more Christlike.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:54pm

This all started off with the question, "Why poverty persists..."

The article states something about the current poverty crisis going back to colonialism. I disagree with the assertion, kirkdickinson stated quite well what the problem is. Of course practically speaking, his explanation is not filling stomachs, it does indeed address the intellectual issue at hand. I found it humorous that a Christian apologetic would be attacked. Of course we should try to address this issue, we are mandated by scripture. However, it is not going to go away. The poor will always be with us.

How you might address this problem may indeed be different than how I might. I do not see just "one way" to do so in the Bible.

About the question...depends on who is doing the telling.

by: John Mulholland

12-04-2009 @ 6:54pm

This all started off with the question, "Why poverty persists..."

The article states something about the current poverty crisis going back to colonialism. I disagree with the assertion, kirkdickinson stated quite well what the problem is. Of course practically speaking, his explanation is not filling stomachs, it does indeed address the intellectual issue at hand. I found it humorous that a Christian apologetic would be attacked. Of course we should try to address this issue, we are mandated by scripture. However, it is not going to go away. The poor will always be with us.

How you might address this problem may indeed be different than how I might. I do not see just "one way" to do so in the Bible.

About the question...depends on who is doing the telling.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 7:22pm

I'm answering up here because the thread is too compressed.

The apologetic was "attacked" because kirk seemed to be dismissing the issue. It's an apologetic that is scripturally valid, but we could say the same thing about any other problem that faces the world, so it's pretty much a moot point. The way kirk presented the point could be interpreted as a dismissive oversimplification of a complex problem, and can be interpreted as him saying we don't need to do anything about it. I don't think he meant it that way, but as you can tell from the responses, several people did.

Certainly, I have seen the verse you quoted used by those who are saying just that, however. They are essentially using that verse to justify this attitude: "The poor are with us always, so why bother trying to deal with poverty?" And from the cryptic manner in which you stated and used the comment, one could easily interpret you to mean just that.

Your responses to my requests for clarification have been equally cryptic and vague.

by: squeaky

12-04-2009 @ 7:22pm

I'm answering up here because the thread is too compressed.

The apologetic was "attacked" because kirk seemed to be dismissing the issue. It's an apologetic that is scripturally valid, but we could say the same thing about any other problem that faces the world, so it's pretty much a moot point. The way kirk presented the point could be interpreted as a dismissive oversimplification of a complex problem, and can be interpreted as him saying we don't need to do anything about it. I don't think he meant it that way, but as you can tell from the responses, several people did.

Certainly, I have seen the verse you quoted used by those who are saying just that, however. They are essentially using that verse to justify this attitude: "The poor are with us always, so why bother trying to deal with poverty?" And from the cryptic manner in which you stated and used the comment, one could easily interpret you to mean just that.

Your responses to my requests for clarification have been equally cryptic and vague.

by: Morna

12-05-2009 @ 3:28am

"You can help them any time you want" is not in any version of the Bible I have read. Could you tell us what version you use so I can look it up? Thanks.

by: Morna

12-05-2009 @ 3:28am

"You can help them any time you want" is not in any version of the Bible I have read. Could you tell us what version you use so I can look it up? Thanks.

by: John Mulholland

12-05-2009 @ 12:27pm

Mark 14:7.

by: John Mulholland

12-05-2009 @ 12:27pm

Mark 14:7.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 2:53pm

Is that a version? That's a verse. Clearly you aren't really interested in dialogue on this site. I have yet to see you give an actual answer to questions anyone asks you. The trend I see in your posts is that when someone challenges you position, your best defense is to be cryptic and evasive.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 2:53pm

Is that a version? That's a verse. Clearly you aren't really interested in dialogue on this site. I have yet to see you give an actual answer to questions anyone asks you. The trend I see in your posts is that when someone challenges you position, your best defense is to be cryptic and evasive.

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 4:39pm

To get to the other side...

by: squeaky

12-05-2009 @ 4:39pm

To get to the other side...

by: JoannaCW

12-05-2009 @ 9:13pm

In this context, the chief sinners are me and my ilk (US citizens, and other rich folk) who waste far more than our share (the sin) while others go without what they need (the consequences). That's the general statement--there are various specifics involved, such as the fact that the major CO2 emitting nations are not the nations most threatened by rising sea levels, or the fact that some people are able to live without doing any of the physical work required for their survival because other people are doing excessive amounts of that work and being poorly compensated.