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The Archbishop and the President's Common Problem

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
--William Butler Yeats, from "The Second Coming"

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Two of the best people in public life today -- in my humble opinion -- are the president of the United States and the Archbishop of Canterbury. Both are intelligent, thoughtful, well-read men who care deeply about justice, not only for themselves and their immediate constituents, but for the whole world. Both are complex thinkers who understand that every issue has many aspects. Both practice empathy: they see value in their opponents as well as in their adherents, and they dream of finding common ground, reconciling adversaries, and creating peace on earth.

By no means do Barack Obama and Rowan Williams lack all conviction. But -- dogged on all sides by passionately intense extremists -- both men seem unable to say, loud and clear, "Here I stand." Obama, still hoping to come up with a viable health plan, dreams of bipartisanship; while Williams, navigating among bishops from Africa and North America, appeals to the via media.

The results?

In Congress, a formerly fairly good health bill has been rewritten to the point that it soon may do just what Republicans warned it would do, back when it didn't do it: that is, cost too much. So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes -- but Democrats don't much like it either, since it may no longer do what needs doing.

In Lambeth, a decades-long series of non-decisions and non-comments regarding gay clergy has driven conservative Anglicans to Africa or Rome while leaving liberal Anglicans feeling betrayed, wondering why their former champion has not even spoken up about the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda.

I really like President Obama and Archbishop Williams. I like them because they are thoughtful reconcilers, and I think both of them have really good ideas. I would love to have a beer with either one, any time. The question is, can they do their jobs if they continue to be simultaneously irenic and visionary? Or does a public figure eventually need to draw a line in the sand, even though a lot of people will end up on the other side of the line?

portrait-lavonne-neffLaVonne Neff is an amateur theologian and cook; lover of language and travel; wife, mother, grandmother, godmother, dogmother; perpetual student, constant reader, and Christian contrarian. She blogs at Lively Dust.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: bill pence

12-16-2009 @ 1:50am

why are so many of these comments anonymous?? I like what you say WaveTossed, but I must say I don't understand why so many people speak out with anonymous faces.

by: Anothernonymous

12-10-2009 @ 8:07pm

Burke could also have said that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for people - including good people - to deny its presence within themselves. It's so much easier to project it onto another person, or another group. It happened in Germany with the Jews, and it's happening in Uganda now with gays. If we're honest, this is a spiritual challenge for all of us. The desire to draw a line in the sand and push "them" over to the other side is well-nigh universal in human society. The very essence of the Gospel is to remove that line.

by: Strings12

12-16-2009 @ 7:32am

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by: facebook-1098992858

12-22-2009 @ 5:43pm

I take your point. It happened to be Republicans when I wrote it (can't remember the details anymore). But by now the whole thing has been nibbled to death by ducks of both parties.

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by: facebook-1098992858

12-22-2009 @ 3:43pm

I take your point. It happened to be Republicans when I wrote it (can't remember the details anymore). But by now the whole thing has been nibbled to death by ducks of both parties.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 5:18pm

[About the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams] "wondering why their former champion has not even spoken up about the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda."

I am a Gay Episcopalian. I am very proud of my church. Our Presiding Bishop has forcefully spoken out against the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda.

However, we get to Rowan Williams: he refuses to speak out against genocide. Instead, he attacks my Episcopal Church on the election of a Bishop because of who she is partnered with.

Right now I feel that if Williams casts out the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion over this matter, I wouldn't mind it -- a Communion that favors genocide over lifelong, faithful love is not a Communion that I wish to be part of.

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by: pgafinch

12-09-2009 @ 6:46pm

President Obama, who learned from Clinton years, has chosen to not lay many cards on the table at the outset. He has let congress (with behind the scenes input no doubt) battle it out. Obama has not given the opposition much area to attack. So much of the attack has been based on made-up issues that are not part of the bills at all. This has forced the opposition onto hollow arguments so far.

At some point the President will have to way in on what he will tolerate and what he will not. Those positions may come out in force when the reconciliation of House and Senate bills takes place.

I do not think current bills meet all the needs of our citizens, but it is a good beginning. It will take several years for our health care system to transisition itno a universal care system.

Mick

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-09-2009 @ 8:43pm

"So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes"

Huh? Is Harry Reid a Republican all of a sudden? How about Nancy Pelosi? I could have sworn it was Reid who just yesterday announced a big grand compromise health care bill.

LV

by: NC77

12-09-2009 @ 8:44pm

So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes - but Democrats don't much like it either, since it may no longer do what needs doing.

Where do you get your information? So is the left setting up the right for blame of the big failure this bill will be to solve the healthcare problem?

From everything I have seen this is a partisan democrat bill.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 8:45pm

For that matter, why is Obama still silent about the proposed genocidal Uganda legislation?

http://www.davidmixner.com/2009/12/uganda-swede...

Other heads of state have spoken out against this grievious violation of human rights. Why not Obama?

by: facebook-1098992858

12-22-2009 @ 3:43pm

I take your point. It happened to be Republicans when I wrote it (can't remember the details anymore). But by now the whole thing has been nibbled to death by ducks of both parties.

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by: Joe_Allen_Doty

12-09-2009 @ 11:25pm

What does the Archbishop of Canterbury have to do with me as a Believer and an openly gay person? Absolutely nothing.

I don't use my sexual orientation as an adjective for my relationship with Jesus the Christ nor do I use that relationship with Jesus as an adjective for my sexual orientation.

I didn't choose my sexual orientation; but I did make a deliberate choice to follow Jesus.

The head of a church denomination in a foreign country should have no say in American politics.

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by a king who wanted to divorce his wife so he could commit adultery so, he created his own version of a catholic denomination

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-10-2009 @ 12:35am

Moving on to what I take to be Ms. Neff's larger point:

I think there is a place for principled moderation, and it isn't to serve as a pincushion for partisans. But if there's going to be principled moderation, moderates need to have, well, principles.m Or at least reasons. They need to be able to defend their positions, explain why they draw the line here and not there. Compromise for the sake of compromising does nobody any good.

LV

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by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 11:09am

Absolutely. There is a difference between principled moderation and holding up one's finger to see which way the wind is blowing.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 5:18pm

[About the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams] "wondering why their former champion has not even spoken up about the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda."

I am a Gay Episcopalian. I am very proud of my church. Our Presiding Bishop has forcefully spoken out against the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda.

However, we get to Rowan Williams: he refuses to speak out against genocide. Instead, he attacks my Episcopal Church on the election of a Bishop because of who she is partnered with.

Right now I feel that if Williams casts out the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion over this matter, I wouldn't mind it -- a Communion that favors genocide over lifelong, faithful love is not a Communion that I wish to be part of.

by: Conrad G. Steinhoff

12-10-2009 @ 2:07pm

As a member of the United Methodist Clergy, and one who seeks open ordination in our denomination, I challenged my bishop on her silence regarding this issue. I said,"I haven't heard you on this issue." "And you won't," she replied. "I am the bishop of all the people."
I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!

by: pgafinch

12-09-2009 @ 6:46pm

President Obama, who learned from Clinton years, has chosen to not lay many cards on the table at the outset. He has let congress (with behind the scenes input no doubt) battle it out. Obama has not given the opposition much area to attack. So much of the attack has been based on made-up issues that are not part of the bills at all. This has forced the opposition onto hollow arguments so far.

At some point the President will have to way in on what he will tolerate and what he will not. Those positions may come out in force when the reconciliation of House and Senate bills takes place.

I do not think current bills meet all the needs of our citizens, but it is a good beginning. It will take several years for our health care system to transisition itno a universal care system.

Mick

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07-19-2011 @ 10:12am

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by: Lord_Voldemort

12-09-2009 @ 8:43pm

"So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes"

Huh? Is Harry Reid a Republican all of a sudden? How about Nancy Pelosi? I could have sworn it was Reid who just yesterday announced a big grand compromise health care bill.

LV

by: NC77

12-09-2009 @ 8:44pm

So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes - but Democrats don't much like it either, since it may no longer do what needs doing.

Where do you get your information? So is the left setting up the right for blame of the big failure this bill will be to solve the healthcare problem?

From everything I have seen this is a partisan democrat bill.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 8:45pm

For that matter, why is Obama still silent about the proposed genocidal Uganda legislation?

http://www.davidmixner.com/2009/12/uganda-swede...

Other heads of state have spoken out against this grievious violation of human rights. Why not Obama?

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by: histrogeek

12-10-2009 @ 5:06pm

I do have to agree with WaveTossed first comment. I am a liberal Episcopalian and I have no problem with the principle of reconciliation within the Communion. I definitely want to keep our Communion together.
But Rowan doesn't just hurt us with his silence. He has actively sought to restrain the progress of gays and lesbians within our (autonomous) province. He condemned Gene Robinson, even going so far as to deny him admission to the Lambeth Conference. Pressure from Lambeth on PB Katherine just after her election lead to the effective suspension of new gays and lesbians to the episcopacy by the General Convention. His listening committee, designed to get the sense of the Communion and foster reconciliation, included not one gay or lesbian member. So this is more than compromise for the sake of unity. This is active suppression of an inconvenient point of view.

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:18pm

"I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!"

Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren signed on to a petition that condemned the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda. I was very happy to see this.

Here is a PDF link where you can see the people who signed.

Here is a link where anyone can sign on:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Uganda_Chris...

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:27pm

By the way, Rick Warren finally made his voice heard. Okay, Rowan Williams: now it's YOUR turn.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/2099/ric...

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

12-09-2009 @ 11:25pm

What does the Archbishop of Canterbury have to do with me as a Believer and an openly gay person? Absolutely nothing.

I don't use my sexual orientation as an adjective for my relationship with Jesus the Christ nor do I use that relationship with Jesus as an adjective for my sexual orientation.

I didn't choose my sexual orientation; but I did make a deliberate choice to follow Jesus.

The head of a church denomination in a foreign country should have no say in American politics.

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by a king who wanted to divorce his wife so he could commit adultery so, he created his own version of a catholic denomination

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-10-2009 @ 12:35am

Moving on to what I take to be Ms. Neff's larger point:

I think there is a place for principled moderation, and it isn't to serve as a pincushion for partisans. But if there's going to be principled moderation, moderates need to have, well, principles.m Or at least reasons. They need to be able to defend their positions, explain why they draw the line here and not there. Compromise for the sake of compromising does nobody any good.

LV

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 11:09am

Absolutely. There is a difference between principled moderation and holding up one's finger to see which way the wind is blowing.

by: Conrad G. Steinhoff

12-10-2009 @ 2:07pm

As a member of the United Methodist Clergy, and one who seeks open ordination in our denomination, I challenged my bishop on her silence regarding this issue. I said,"I haven't heard you on this issue." "And you won't," she replied. "I am the bishop of all the people."
I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!

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by: bill pence

12-16-2009 @ 1:50am

why are so many of these comments anonymous?? I like what you say WaveTossed, but I must say I don't understand why so many people speak out with anonymous faces.

by: histrogeek

12-10-2009 @ 5:06pm

I do have to agree with WaveTossed first comment. I am a liberal Episcopalian and I have no problem with the principle of reconciliation within the Communion. I definitely want to keep our Communion together.
But Rowan doesn't just hurt us with his silence. He has actively sought to restrain the progress of gays and lesbians within our (autonomous) province. He condemned Gene Robinson, even going so far as to deny him admission to the Lambeth Conference. Pressure from Lambeth on PB Katherine just after her election lead to the effective suspension of new gays and lesbians to the episcopacy by the General Convention. His listening committee, designed to get the sense of the Communion and foster reconciliation, included not one gay or lesbian member. So this is more than compromise for the sake of unity. This is active suppression of an inconvenient point of view.

by: Anothernonymous

12-10-2009 @ 8:07pm

Burke could also have said that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for people - including good people - to deny its presence within themselves. It's so much easier to project it onto another person, or another group. It happened in Germany with the Jews, and it's happening in Uganda now with gays. If we're honest, this is a spiritual challenge for all of us. The desire to draw a line in the sand and push "them" over to the other side is well-nigh universal in human society. The very essence of the Gospel is to remove that line.

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:18pm

"I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!"

Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren signed on to a petition that condemned the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda. I was very happy to see this.

Here is a PDF link where you can see the people who signed.

Here is a link where anyone can sign on:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Uganda_Chris...

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:27pm

By the way, Rick Warren finally made his voice heard. Okay, Rowan Williams: now it's YOUR turn.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/2099/ric...

by: Strings12

12-16-2009 @ 7:32am

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by: facebook-1098992858

12-22-2009 @ 5:43pm

I take your point. It happened to be Republicans when I wrote it (can't remember the details anymore). But by now the whole thing has been nibbled to death by ducks of both parties.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 5:18pm

[About the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams] "wondering why their former champion has not even spoken up about the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda."

I am a Gay Episcopalian. I am very proud of my church. Our Presiding Bishop has forcefully spoken out against the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda.

However, we get to Rowan Williams: he refuses to speak out against genocide. Instead, he attacks my Episcopal Church on the election of a Bishop because of who she is partnered with.

Right now I feel that if Williams casts out the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion over this matter, I wouldn't mind it -- a Communion that favors genocide over lifelong, faithful love is not a Communion that I wish to be part of.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 5:18pm

[About the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams] "wondering why their former champion has not even spoken up about the proposed death penalty for gays in Uganda."

I am a Gay Episcopalian. I am very proud of my church. Our Presiding Bishop has forcefully spoken out against the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda.

However, we get to Rowan Williams: he refuses to speak out against genocide. Instead, he attacks my Episcopal Church on the election of a Bishop because of who she is partnered with.

Right now I feel that if Williams casts out the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion over this matter, I wouldn't mind it -- a Communion that favors genocide over lifelong, faithful love is not a Communion that I wish to be part of.

by: pgafinch

12-09-2009 @ 6:46pm

President Obama, who learned from Clinton years, has chosen to not lay many cards on the table at the outset. He has let congress (with behind the scenes input no doubt) battle it out. Obama has not given the opposition much area to attack. So much of the attack has been based on made-up issues that are not part of the bills at all. This has forced the opposition onto hollow arguments so far.

At some point the President will have to way in on what he will tolerate and what he will not. Those positions may come out in force when the reconciliation of House and Senate bills takes place.

I do not think current bills meet all the needs of our citizens, but it is a good beginning. It will take several years for our health care system to transisition itno a universal care system.

Mick

by: pgafinch

12-09-2009 @ 6:46pm

President Obama, who learned from Clinton years, has chosen to not lay many cards on the table at the outset. He has let congress (with behind the scenes input no doubt) battle it out. Obama has not given the opposition much area to attack. So much of the attack has been based on made-up issues that are not part of the bills at all. This has forced the opposition onto hollow arguments so far.

At some point the President will have to way in on what he will tolerate and what he will not. Those positions may come out in force when the reconciliation of House and Senate bills takes place.

I do not think current bills meet all the needs of our citizens, but it is a good beginning. It will take several years for our health care system to transisition itno a universal care system.

Mick

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-09-2009 @ 8:43pm

"So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes"

Huh? Is Harry Reid a Republican all of a sudden? How about Nancy Pelosi? I could have sworn it was Reid who just yesterday announced a big grand compromise health care bill.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-09-2009 @ 8:43pm

"So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes"

Huh? Is Harry Reid a Republican all of a sudden? How about Nancy Pelosi? I could have sworn it was Reid who just yesterday announced a big grand compromise health care bill.

LV

by: NC77

12-09-2009 @ 8:44pm

So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes - but Democrats don't much like it either, since it may no longer do what needs doing.

Where do you get your information? So is the left setting up the right for blame of the big failure this bill will be to solve the healthcare problem?

From everything I have seen this is a partisan democrat bill.

by: NC77

12-09-2009 @ 8:44pm

So of course Republicans don't like it, even though they're the ones who are making the changes - but Democrats don't much like it either, since it may no longer do what needs doing.

Where do you get your information? So is the left setting up the right for blame of the big failure this bill will be to solve the healthcare problem?

From everything I have seen this is a partisan democrat bill.

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 8:45pm

For that matter, why is Obama still silent about the proposed genocidal Uganda legislation?

http://www.davidmixner.com/2009/12/uganda-swede...

Other heads of state have spoken out against this grievious violation of human rights. Why not Obama?

by: WaveTossed

12-09-2009 @ 8:45pm

For that matter, why is Obama still silent about the proposed genocidal Uganda legislation?

http://www.davidmixner.com/2009/12/uganda-swede...

Other heads of state have spoken out against this grievious violation of human rights. Why not Obama?

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

12-09-2009 @ 11:25pm

What does the Archbishop of Canterbury have to do with me as a Believer and an openly gay person? Absolutely nothing.

I don't use my sexual orientation as an adjective for my relationship with Jesus the Christ nor do I use that relationship with Jesus as an adjective for my sexual orientation.

I didn't choose my sexual orientation; but I did make a deliberate choice to follow Jesus.

The head of a church denomination in a foreign country should have no say in American politics.

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by a king who wanted to divorce his wife so he could commit adultery so, he created his own version of a catholic denomination

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

12-09-2009 @ 11:25pm

What does the Archbishop of Canterbury have to do with me as a Believer and an openly gay person? Absolutely nothing.

I don't use my sexual orientation as an adjective for my relationship with Jesus the Christ nor do I use that relationship with Jesus as an adjective for my sexual orientation.

I didn't choose my sexual orientation; but I did make a deliberate choice to follow Jesus.

The head of a church denomination in a foreign country should have no say in American politics.

The Anglican Church, originally the Church of England, was founded by a king who wanted to divorce his wife so he could commit adultery so, he created his own version of a catholic denomination

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-10-2009 @ 12:35am

Moving on to what I take to be Ms. Neff's larger point:

I think there is a place for principled moderation, and it isn't to serve as a pincushion for partisans. But if there's going to be principled moderation, moderates need to have, well, principles.m Or at least reasons. They need to be able to defend their positions, explain why they draw the line here and not there. Compromise for the sake of compromising does nobody any good.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

12-10-2009 @ 12:35am

Moving on to what I take to be Ms. Neff's larger point:

I think there is a place for principled moderation, and it isn't to serve as a pincushion for partisans. But if there's going to be principled moderation, moderates need to have, well, principles.m Or at least reasons. They need to be able to defend their positions, explain why they draw the line here and not there. Compromise for the sake of compromising does nobody any good.

LV

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 11:09am

Absolutely. There is a difference between principled moderation and holding up one's finger to see which way the wind is blowing.

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 11:09am

Absolutely. There is a difference between principled moderation and holding up one's finger to see which way the wind is blowing.

by: Conrad G. Steinhoff

12-10-2009 @ 2:07pm

As a member of the United Methodist Clergy, and one who seeks open ordination in our denomination, I challenged my bishop on her silence regarding this issue. I said,"I haven't heard you on this issue." "And you won't," she replied. "I am the bishop of all the people."
I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!

by: Conrad G. Steinhoff

12-10-2009 @ 2:07pm

As a member of the United Methodist Clergy, and one who seeks open ordination in our denomination, I challenged my bishop on her silence regarding this issue. I said,"I haven't heard you on this issue." "And you won't," she replied. "I am the bishop of all the people."
I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!

by: histrogeek

12-10-2009 @ 5:06pm

I do have to agree with WaveTossed first comment. I am a liberal Episcopalian and I have no problem with the principle of reconciliation within the Communion. I definitely want to keep our Communion together.
But Rowan doesn't just hurt us with his silence. He has actively sought to restrain the progress of gays and lesbians within our (autonomous) province. He condemned Gene Robinson, even going so far as to deny him admission to the Lambeth Conference. Pressure from Lambeth on PB Katherine just after her election lead to the effective suspension of new gays and lesbians to the episcopacy by the General Convention. His listening committee, designed to get the sense of the Communion and foster reconciliation, included not one gay or lesbian member. So this is more than compromise for the sake of unity. This is active suppression of an inconvenient point of view.

by: histrogeek

12-10-2009 @ 5:06pm

I do have to agree with WaveTossed first comment. I am a liberal Episcopalian and I have no problem with the principle of reconciliation within the Communion. I definitely want to keep our Communion together.
But Rowan doesn't just hurt us with his silence. He has actively sought to restrain the progress of gays and lesbians within our (autonomous) province. He condemned Gene Robinson, even going so far as to deny him admission to the Lambeth Conference. Pressure from Lambeth on PB Katherine just after her election lead to the effective suspension of new gays and lesbians to the episcopacy by the General Convention. His listening committee, designed to get the sense of the Communion and foster reconciliation, included not one gay or lesbian member. So this is more than compromise for the sake of unity. This is active suppression of an inconvenient point of view.

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:18pm

"I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!"

Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren signed on to a petition that condemned the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda. I was very happy to see this.

Here is a PDF link where you can see the people who signed.

Here is a link where anyone can sign on:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Uganda_Chris...

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:18pm

"I am troubled by Jim Wallis's silence on this issue. Why are you silent, Jim? You are an articulate prophet. You speak out on abortion and other controversial issues. Speak up, man!"

Jim Wallis and Brian McLaren signed on to a petition that condemned the proposed genocidal legislation in Uganda. I was very happy to see this.

Here is a PDF link where you can see the people who signed.

Here is a link where anyone can sign on:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Uganda_Chris...

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:27pm

By the way, Rick Warren finally made his voice heard. Okay, Rowan Williams: now it's YOUR turn.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/2099/ric...

by: WaveTossed

12-10-2009 @ 5:27pm

By the way, Rick Warren finally made his voice heard. Okay, Rowan Williams: now it's YOUR turn.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/2099/ric...

by: Anothernonymous

12-10-2009 @ 8:07pm

Burke could also have said that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for people - including good people - to deny its presence within themselves. It's so much easier to project it onto another person, or another group. It happened in Germany with the Jews, and it's happening in Uganda now with gays. If we're honest, this is a spiritual challenge for all of us. The desire to draw a line in the sand and push "them" over to the other side is well-nigh universal in human society. The very essence of the Gospel is to remove that line.

by: Anothernonymous

12-10-2009 @ 8:07pm

Burke could also have said that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for people - including good people - to deny its presence within themselves. It's so much easier to project it onto another person, or another group. It happened in Germany with the Jews, and it's happening in Uganda now with gays. If we're honest, this is a spiritual challenge for all of us. The desire to draw a line in the sand and push "them" over to the other side is well-nigh universal in human society. The very essence of the Gospel is to remove that line.

by: bill pence

12-16-2009 @ 1:50am

why are so many of these comments anonymous?? I like what you say WaveTossed, but I must say I don't understand why so many people speak out with anonymous faces.

by: bill pence

12-16-2009 @ 1:50am

why are so many of these comments anonymous?? I like what you say WaveTossed, but I must say I don't understand why so many people speak out with anonymous faces.

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12-22-2009 @ 5:43pm

I take your point. It happened to be Republicans when I wrote it (can't remember the details anymore). But by now the whole thing has been nibbled to death by ducks of both parties.

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