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Obama's Nobel Speech, Violence, and Nonviolence: Who's Na

The president's campaign speech in Philadelphia on race and his speech earlier this year to the Muslim world from Egypt were, in my mind, two of the most important presidential speeches of my lifetime. I had tears streaming down my face as I watched the former, and was so moved I could hardly speak after the latter. His more recent Oslo speech, given as he received the Nobel Peace Prize, also struck me as important, even though I hope that someday the president himself will come to differ with some of its content.

I agree with Jim Wallis, who offered an excellent summary of the speech, and said: "It was a more philosophical, and even theological, lecture than presidents normally give," and so deserves careful study and engagement.

Two paragraphs in the president's speech struck me in particular. After acknowledging with humility the complex circumstances around his being named the Nobel Peace Prize recipient, he said he was:

mindful of what Martin Luther King said in this same ceremony years ago -- "Violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones." As someone who stands here as a direct consequence of Dr. King's life's work, I am living testimony to the moral force of nonviolence. I know there is nothing weak -- nothing passive, nothing naïve -- in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King. But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. A nonviolent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism -- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason.

The unresolved irony of those two paragraphs wrestles under their composed and muscular syntax. On the one hand, "there is nothing naïve in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King." On the other hand, "I face the world as it is ... evil does exist in the world." It's hard to read the latter in any other way than denying the former: King and Gandhi were naïve, underestimating the reality of evil in the world.

Now I am the first to admit that heads of state have responsibilities and are privy to "intelligence" that the rest of us can't imagine. I respect the president's straightforwardness in saying, "We are at war, and I am responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle ... Some will kill. Some will be killed." I have never felt a tiny fraction of the burden of responsibility he must feel in making those sorts of life-and-death decisions. Perhaps this is what happens when a movement leader or idealistic campaigner becomes an institutional leader, seated at the desk where the buck stops: idealism evaporates into a haze of naïveté and "realism" rises like a cold flood. (As I imagine that transformation, I can't help but recall a former governor and VP candidate dismissing a lowly community organizer back in 2008; he didn't have "actual responsibilities," she snarled, as did even a small-town Alaskan mayor.)

These conflicted thoughts of war and peace, naïveté and realism were churning in my mind a day or so after the speech as I walked through a plaza in Riverside, California. Who is more naïve, I wondered -- those who believe violence can overcome violence, or those who believe violence always creates new and more complicated problems? By chance, at that moment in my musings I came upon a monument to Gandhi that stands between the city's Convention Center and old mission. As I slowly circled the monument, it wasn't the quotes from Gandhi that seized my attention, but rather this quote from General Douglas MacArthur:

In the evolution of civilization, if it is to survive, all men cannot fail eventually to adopt Gandhi's belief that the process of mass application of force to resolve contentious issues is fundamentally not only wrong but contains within itself the germs of self-destruction.

It would be one thing if these words were spoken by an idealistic young candidate, a community organizer, a pastor, a poet, or a movement leader. But when a seasoned general from World War II -- well beyond naïveté about either war or evil -- makes a statement like this, one hopes that the rest of us will at least give his words a second thought.

I don't judge the president; I'm just a citizen with a lot less intelligence (of whatever sort) than he has. But I wonder if someday he will see that he was right in his first assessment of Gandhi and King: they spoke not from naïveté about evil and violence but from "a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason." Yes, one can be naïve about the insidious reality of evil, but one can also be naïve about the "germs of self-destruction" contained within our attempts to overcome evil through "the mass application of force." Somehow we must live with vigilance against both kinds of naïveté, presidents and citizens alike.

Brian McLarenBrian McLaren (brianmclaren.net) is a speaker and author, most recently of Everything Must Change and Finding Our Way Again.

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by: phil413

12-18-2009 @ 8:06pm

OK - real life situation: you are Pres. Roosevelt Dec. 8, 1941. As a red-letter Christian, what do you do? Turn the other cheek by offering up the rest of our fleet to Japan? Do nothing? Try to negotiate? If you do, you are violating your oath of office to protect the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

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by: glopo

12-19-2009 @ 9:16am

For the person who wants chapter and verse: Matthew 6:10- Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.

jkc, I do not think we are that far apart in what we are saying. Except I do not think the basic nature of our species will change. It is up to us to change our ways.

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by: Jason Winton

12-21-2009 @ 11:36am

I think I remember reading a story in Claiborne and Haw's book (Jesus for President) about a Rwandan man whose family was murdered and, essentially, became a target himself as he began to directly forgive his enemies. His example, of self-sacrificial enemy-love, is far more powerful and intelligent than any "smart bomb." Of course, one only has to read the Gospels and learn the stories of early Christians to understand how this works. I suspect there are some situations where Christians cannot do anything to stop "radical evil," that is, aside from giving one's own life. But shouldn't that be the call of those who follow a resurrected man?

by: RachelK

12-21-2009 @ 3:42pm

Regan presided over one of the largest arms build-ups in history (to that point). Refraining from violence, but always threatening it, is not nonviolence. It is better than all-out war, or half-in war, but it is not nonviolence.
BTW, I disagree that "Reagan got the iron curtain to fall," but will not carry that discussion any further in this thread.
Blessings.

by: BelovedFollower

12-21-2009 @ 7:14pm

Thats the problem with serving two masters. At some point you have to choose. For that reason I would never want to be President, because he must declare loyalty to nation first. What do you do with the phrase "God and country" in situations where the two are decidedly at odds (example "preemptive strike"). I've even stopped saying the pledge of allegience because I won't split my loyalty, or allow it to be questioned. (The root of the word "allegiance" is leige, which is another word for ruler, king, lord....you get it. So when I pledge to my countries flag I am declaring it my lord, and pledging unquestioning loyalty to it above all else!) I will stand as a sign of respect to the many ideals and sacrifices the flag represents to many people, but my allegiance is reserved for the one true Triune God! (I'm obviously off on a tangent here but, speaking of the flag...there's an awesome essay by 12 year old Charlotte Aldebron at commondreams.org called What the American Flag Stands For. I recommend everyone read it!)

by: phil413

12-21-2009 @ 7:56pm

"...I would never want to be President..." - precisely, but someone has to! Someone has to make the extremely difficult decisions that are part of the job. Christ was not a geopolitical figure, He said "my kingdom is not of this world", but someone has to make the decisions that effect the kingdoms of this world until He comes again. To allow tyranny in the name of being a peacemaker is not my Christian ideal. I would think rather what Christ would have us do is to use war as a last and just resort. Which conflicts in the past fit that description could be a matter for debate but to say war is never justified makes no sense. Even Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom."

by: Jason Winton

12-21-2009 @ 11:36am

I think I remember reading a story in Claiborne and Haw's book (Jesus for President) about a Rwandan man whose family was murdered and, essentially, became a target himself as he began to directly forgive his enemies. His example, of self-sacrificial enemy-love, is far more powerful and intelligent than any "smart bomb." Of course, one only has to read the Gospels and learn the stories of early Christians to understand how this works. I suspect there are some situations where Christians cannot do anything to stop "radical evil," that is, aside from giving one's own life. But shouldn't that be the call of those who follow a resurrected man?

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by: RachelK

12-21-2009 @ 3:42pm

Regan presided over one of the largest arms build-ups in history (to that point). Refraining from violence, but always threatening it, is not nonviolence. It is better than all-out war, or half-in war, but it is not nonviolence.
BTW, I disagree that "Reagan got the iron curtain to fall," but will not carry that discussion any further in this thread.
Blessings.

by: BelovedFollower

12-21-2009 @ 7:14pm

Thats the problem with serving two masters. At some point you have to choose. For that reason I would never want to be President, because he must declare loyalty to nation first. What do you do with the phrase "God and country" in situations where the two are decidedly at odds (example "preemptive strike"). I've even stopped saying the pledge of allegience because I won't split my loyalty, or allow it to be questioned. (The root of the word "allegiance" is leige, which is another word for ruler, king, lord....you get it. So when I pledge to my countries flag I am declaring it my lord, and pledging unquestioning loyalty to it above all else!) I will stand as a sign of respect to the many ideals and sacrifices the flag represents to many people, but my allegiance is reserved for the one true Triune God! (I'm obviously off on a tangent here but, speaking of the flag...there's an awesome essay by 12 year old Charlotte Aldebron at commondreams.org called What the American Flag Stands For. I recommend everyone read it!)

by: phil413

12-21-2009 @ 7:56pm

"...I would never want to be President..." - precisely, but someone has to! Someone has to make the extremely difficult decisions that are part of the job. Christ was not a geopolitical figure, He said "my kingdom is not of this world", but someone has to make the decisions that effect the kingdoms of this world until He comes again. To allow tyranny in the name of being a peacemaker is not my Christian ideal. I would think rather what Christ would have us do is to use war as a last and just resort. Which conflicts in the past fit that description could be a matter for debate but to say war is never justified makes no sense. Even Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom."

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by: jesse3

12-17-2009 @ 4:21pm

"The unresolved irony of those two paragraphs wrestles under their composed and muscular syntax. On the one hand, "there is nothing naïve in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King." On the other hand, "I face the world as it is

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01-11-2010 @ 10:29am

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Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: jesse3

12-17-2009 @ 4:21pm

"The unresolved irony of those two paragraphs wrestles under their composed and muscular syntax. On the one hand, "there is nothing naïve in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King." On the other hand, "I face the world as it is

by: jesse3

12-17-2009 @ 4:21pm

"The unresolved irony of those two paragraphs wrestles under their composed and muscular syntax. On the one hand, "there is nothing naïve in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King." On the other hand, "I face the world as it is

by: ashpenaz

12-17-2009 @ 7:51pm

Conservatives such as Bush and Palin had already made the leap that Obama made, but, no, they were stupid and evil. Is it possible, just possible, that some aspects of right-wing Christianity are just plain smarter than left-wing Christianity? Deep down in his little heart of hearts, McClaren knows that if he'd heard Palin give that speech, he'd be up in arms against it. But because he is invested in the idolatry of Obama, he has to work through his cognitive dissonance by pretending, somehow, it was smart and profound. He is like those people who worshipped the President in Being There.

My God, if McClaren heard Obama say, "I want some pizza," he'd say, "The unresolved irony of that request wrestles under its composed and muscular syntax." Yeesh! Where's Elijah when you need him? Oh, wait--in this context, Elijah is Glenn Beck.

by: ashpenaz

12-17-2009 @ 7:51pm

Conservatives such as Bush and Palin had already made the leap that Obama made, but, no, they were stupid and evil. Is it possible, just possible, that some aspects of right-wing Christianity are just plain smarter than left-wing Christianity? Deep down in his little heart of hearts, McClaren knows that if he'd heard Palin give that speech, he'd be up in arms against it. But because he is invested in the idolatry of Obama, he has to work through his cognitive dissonance by pretending, somehow, it was smart and profound. He is like those people who worshipped the President in Being There.

My God, if McClaren heard Obama say, "I want some pizza," he'd say, "The unresolved irony of that request wrestles under its composed and muscular syntax." Yeesh! Where's Elijah when you need him? Oh, wait--in this context, Elijah is Glenn Beck.

by: RachelK

12-17-2009 @ 8:40pm

If we want nonviolence to work as a national policy, we must begin by applying it in our lives as individuals; in our workplaces and schools; in our cities and states. Only when a basic understanding of nonviolence pervades our society can any president hope to begin applying it as a policy internationally.
Consider how long and hard the leaders of the civil rights movement worked to teach nonviolence, and how that strategy fell apart because it did not produce results fast enough. Multiply that by a few million and try to get a sense of the scale of the work before us. Not before the president, before us.
Until that work is well in hand, any president who announced nonviolence as an international policy would be impeached and probably assassinated.
P.S. Could we start with a little less violence in the responses here?

by: RachelK

12-17-2009 @ 8:40pm

If we want nonviolence to work as a national policy, we must begin by applying it in our lives as individuals; in our workplaces and schools; in our cities and states. Only when a basic understanding of nonviolence pervades our society can any president hope to begin applying it as a policy internationally.
Consider how long and hard the leaders of the civil rights movement worked to teach nonviolence, and how that strategy fell apart because it did not produce results fast enough. Multiply that by a few million and try to get a sense of the scale of the work before us. Not before the president, before us.
Until that work is well in hand, any president who announced nonviolence as an international policy would be impeached and probably assassinated.
P.S. Could we start with a little less violence in the responses here?

by: blutenhalbmond

12-17-2009 @ 8:51pm

I think that ashpenaz is a bit hard on Brian Mclaren. He would not have been up in arms if Sarah palin had given such a speech like that, assuming that such a thing is possible despite an array of ghostly writers helping her,) Mclaren would have kept quiet like many of us, for we expect nothing else from the likes of her.

My angst is at Obama's words: "evil does exist in the world... "

One, why this certainty that we are good, that we have cornered the morality market? After our sponsoring of Israel's occupation, the economic emabrgo on Iraq which by M. Albright's own admission had killed over 500,000 Iraqis by 1996, our indiscrimate bombings in Vietnam, Panama, Libya, Iraq and elswhere that have killed well over the 3500 americans by al qaida, our bankrolling of death squads in Central america and abetting coups in democrtically elected countriea as Chile and Iran, why are we still so confident that we are walikig on the side of angels? In the words of oliver Cromwell, "I beseech you in the name of Christ, does it occur to you that you could be wrong?"

Second, when he said "Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms."
How do we know that? when did we ever negotiate with them to know this? Other than calling them evil ones, have we ever paused and asked ouselves or them, what is the root of their anger and how we can resolve our differences? have we ever considered that maybe it is our foreign policy in the Mideast that can be remedied? That maybe we have been giving too much support only to one party and in Iraq, maybe our heart has never been in the right place? That it could be their oilfields that we have been hungering for all these years?

by: blutenhalbmond

12-17-2009 @ 8:51pm

I think that ashpenaz is a bit hard on Brian Mclaren. He would not have been up in arms if Sarah palin had given such a speech like that, assuming that such a thing is possible despite an array of ghostly writers helping her,) Mclaren would have kept quiet like many of us, for we expect nothing else from the likes of her.

My angst is at Obama's words: "evil does exist in the world... "

One, why this certainty that we are good, that we have cornered the morality market? After our sponsoring of Israel's occupation, the economic emabrgo on Iraq which by M. Albright's own admission had killed over 500,000 Iraqis by 1996, our indiscrimate bombings in Vietnam, Panama, Libya, Iraq and elswhere that have killed well over the 3500 americans by al qaida, our bankrolling of death squads in Central america and abetting coups in democrtically elected countriea as Chile and Iran, why are we still so confident that we are walikig on the side of angels? In the words of oliver Cromwell, "I beseech you in the name of Christ, does it occur to you that you could be wrong?"

Second, when he said "Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms."
How do we know that? when did we ever negotiate with them to know this? Other than calling them evil ones, have we ever paused and asked ouselves or them, what is the root of their anger and how we can resolve our differences? have we ever considered that maybe it is our foreign policy in the Mideast that can be remedied? That maybe we have been giving too much support only to one party and in Iraq, maybe our heart has never been in the right place? That it could be their oilfields that we have been hungering for all these years?

by: blutenhalbmond

12-17-2009 @ 8:59pm

And by the way, yes I do believe that we could have negotiated with Hitler. If not on the eve of the war, but perhaps beginning from years prior to it and kept up the dialogue. I do believe in Jesus Christ's dictum on violence and the words of M K Gandhi and M L King are more than words alone but are the only means to live by. There is no alternative. We have never tried it.

by: blutenhalbmond

12-17-2009 @ 8:59pm

And by the way, yes I do believe that we could have negotiated with Hitler. If not on the eve of the war, but perhaps beginning from years prior to it and kept up the dialogue. I do believe in Jesus Christ's dictum on violence and the words of M K Gandhi and M L King are more than words alone but are the only means to live by. There is no alternative. We have never tried it.

by: Daniel Batt

12-17-2009 @ 9:04pm

Man, this whole argument of McLaren's rests on the assumption Obama was calling Luther King "naive". He wasn't. He was saying it was naive to believe that nonviolence would always work as a solution to radical evil. Um, he mentioned Hitler, didn't he? You missed that. How would nonviolence have stopped the rampaging Hutus in Rwanda? It is just self-serving one's own ideology to think Obama was making an either/or statement.

by: Daniel Batt

12-17-2009 @ 9:04pm

Man, this whole argument of McLaren's rests on the assumption Obama was calling Luther King "naive". He wasn't. He was saying it was naive to believe that nonviolence would always work as a solution to radical evil. Um, he mentioned Hitler, didn't he? You missed that. How would nonviolence have stopped the rampaging Hutus in Rwanda? It is just self-serving one's own ideology to think Obama was making an either/or statement.

by: phil413

12-17-2009 @ 10:20pm

It WAS tried, most famously by Neville Chamberlain, from 1937-1939. After signing the Munich Pact, Chamberlain stated he had secured "peace for our time". That worked out well.

by: phil413

12-17-2009 @ 10:20pm

It WAS tried, most famously by Neville Chamberlain, from 1937-1939. After signing the Munich Pact, Chamberlain stated he had secured "peace for our time". That worked out well.

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:28pm

Can you provide Chapter and verse on Christ's dictum on violence? I would like to look into that. Much appreciated.

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:28pm

Can you provide Chapter and verse on Christ's dictum on violence? I would like to look into that. Much appreciated.

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:34pm

Many on the left are always bemoaning the violence in Darfur. How would the nonviolent approach work there? Anyone?

How can that situation be resolved without any further violence? Just go in and negotiate?

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:34pm

Many on the left are always bemoaning the violence in Darfur. How would the nonviolent approach work there? Anyone?

How can that situation be resolved without any further violence? Just go in and negotiate?

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:37pm

Didn't Reagan get the iron curtain to fall without violence? Intimidation yes, some trash talking yes, but as far as I remember no violence on the scale we are talking about here.

by: NC77

12-17-2009 @ 10:37pm

Didn't Reagan get the iron curtain to fall without violence? Intimidation yes, some trash talking yes, but as far as I remember no violence on the scale we are talking about here.

by: CJTiger

12-17-2009 @ 11:48pm

"I had tears streaming down my face as I watched the former, and was so moved I could hardly speak after the latter. "

Ah, it wasn't that bad.

by: CJTiger

12-17-2009 @ 11:48pm

"I had tears streaming down my face as I watched the former, and was so moved I could hardly speak after the latter. "

Ah, it wasn't that bad.

by: glopo

12-18-2009 @ 10:19am

War is not the solution to war. The only way to end war is to end war. Got it?

by: glopo

12-18-2009 @ 10:19am

War is not the solution to war. The only way to end war is to end war. Got it?

by: jkc1945

12-18-2009 @ 11:59am

No, I don't "get" that. Wars end, one at a time, when there is a victor and a loser. Never, under any other circumstances than that, do they end. There are armistices, there are truces, there are lulls in the battlefield movements, but there is never an end to war - - never-- until someone in power says, "OK, we give up."

I love to dream, like many others, of a day when wars will truly cease. But in order for that to happen, there must be a God-created change in the basic nature of our species. I think I know when, and only when, that will happen. History supports my thinking on this.

by: jkc1945

12-18-2009 @ 11:59am

No, I don't "get" that. Wars end, one at a time, when there is a victor and a loser. Never, under any other circumstances than that, do they end. There are armistices, there are truces, there are lulls in the battlefield movements, but there is never an end to war - - never-- until someone in power says, "OK, we give up."

I love to dream, like many others, of a day when wars will truly cease. But in order for that to happen, there must be a God-created change in the basic nature of our species. I think I know when, and only when, that will happen. History supports my thinking on this.

by: BelovedFollower

12-18-2009 @ 5:31pm

How about Matthew 5:39 and Romans 12:20

by: BelovedFollower

12-18-2009 @ 5:31pm

How about Matthew 5:39 and Romans 12:20

by: phil413

12-18-2009 @ 8:06pm

OK - real life situation: you are Pres. Roosevelt Dec. 8, 1941. As a red-letter Christian, what do you do? Turn the other cheek by offering up the rest of our fleet to Japan? Do nothing? Try to negotiate? If you do, you are violating your oath of office to protect the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

by: phil413

12-18-2009 @ 8:06pm

OK - real life situation: you are Pres. Roosevelt Dec. 8, 1941. As a red-letter Christian, what do you do? Turn the other cheek by offering up the rest of our fleet to Japan? Do nothing? Try to negotiate? If you do, you are violating your oath of office to protect the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

by: glopo

12-19-2009 @ 9:16am

For the person who wants chapter and verse: Matthew 6:10- Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.

jkc, I do not think we are that far apart in what we are saying. Except I do not think the basic nature of our species will change. It is up to us to change our ways.

by: glopo

12-19-2009 @ 9:16am

For the person who wants chapter and verse: Matthew 6:10- Thy kingdom come, thy will be done.

jkc, I do not think we are that far apart in what we are saying. Except I do not think the basic nature of our species will change. It is up to us to change our ways.

by: Jason Winton

12-21-2009 @ 11:36am

I think I remember reading a story in Claiborne and Haw's book (Jesus for President) about a Rwandan man whose family was murdered and, essentially, became a target himself as he began to directly forgive his enemies. His example, of self-sacrificial enemy-love, is far more powerful and intelligent than any "smart bomb." Of course, one only has to read the Gospels and learn the stories of early Christians to understand how this works. I suspect there are some situations where Christians cannot do anything to stop "radical evil," that is, aside from giving one's own life. But shouldn't that be the call of those who follow a resurrected man?

by: Jason Winton

12-21-2009 @ 11:36am

I think I remember reading a story in Claiborne and Haw's book (Jesus for President) about a Rwandan man whose family was murdered and, essentially, became a target himself as he began to directly forgive his enemies. His example, of self-sacrificial enemy-love, is far more powerful and intelligent than any "smart bomb." Of course, one only has to read the Gospels and learn the stories of early Christians to understand how this works. I suspect there are some situations where Christians cannot do anything to stop "radical evil," that is, aside from giving one's own life. But shouldn't that be the call of those who follow a resurrected man?

by: RachelK

12-21-2009 @ 3:42pm

Regan presided over one of the largest arms build-ups in history (to that point). Refraining from violence, but always threatening it, is not nonviolence. It is better than all-out war, or half-in war, but it is not nonviolence.
BTW, I disagree that "Reagan got the iron curtain to fall," but will not carry that discussion any further in this thread.
Blessings.

by: RachelK

12-21-2009 @ 3:42pm

Regan presided over one of the largest arms build-ups in history (to that point). Refraining from violence, but always threatening it, is not nonviolence. It is better than all-out war, or half-in war, but it is not nonviolence.
BTW, I disagree that "Reagan got the iron curtain to fall," but will not carry that discussion any further in this thread.
Blessings.

by: BelovedFollower

12-21-2009 @ 7:14pm

Thats the problem with serving two masters. At some point you have to choose. For that reason I would never want to be President, because he must declare loyalty to nation first. What do you do with the phrase "God and country" in situations where the two are decidedly at odds (example "preemptive strike"). I've even stopped saying the pledge of allegience because I won't split my loyalty, or allow it to be questioned. (The root of the word "allegiance" is leige, which is another word for ruler, king, lord....you get it. So when I pledge to my countries flag I am declaring it my lord, and pledging unquestioning loyalty to it above all else!) I will stand as a sign of respect to the many ideals and sacrifices the flag represents to many people, but my allegiance is reserved for the one true Triune God! (I'm obviously off on a tangent here but, speaking of the flag...there's an awesome essay by 12 year old Charlotte Aldebron at commondreams.org called What the American Flag Stands For. I recommend everyone read it!)

by: BelovedFollower

12-21-2009 @ 7:14pm

Thats the problem with serving two masters. At some point you have to choose. For that reason I would never want to be President, because he must declare loyalty to nation first. What do you do with the phrase "God and country" in situations where the two are decidedly at odds (example "preemptive strike"). I've even stopped saying the pledge of allegience because I won't split my loyalty, or allow it to be questioned. (The root of the word "allegiance" is leige, which is another word for ruler, king, lord....you get it. So when I pledge to my countries flag I am declaring it my lord, and pledging unquestioning loyalty to it above all else!) I will stand as a sign of respect to the many ideals and sacrifices the flag represents to many people, but my allegiance is reserved for the one true Triune God! (I'm obviously off on a tangent here but, speaking of the flag...there's an awesome essay by 12 year old Charlotte Aldebron at commondreams.org called What the American Flag Stands For. I recommend everyone read it!)

by: phil413

12-21-2009 @ 7:56pm

"...I would never want to be President..." - precisely, but someone has to! Someone has to make the extremely difficult decisions that are part of the job. Christ was not a geopolitical figure, He said "my kingdom is not of this world", but someone has to make the decisions that effect the kingdoms of this world until He comes again. To allow tyranny in the name of being a peacemaker is not my Christian ideal. I would think rather what Christ would have us do is to use war as a last and just resort. Which conflicts in the past fit that description could be a matter for debate but to say war is never justified makes no sense. Even Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom."

by: phil413

12-21-2009 @ 7:56pm

"...I would never want to be President..." - precisely, but someone has to! Someone has to make the extremely difficult decisions that are part of the job. Christ was not a geopolitical figure, He said "my kingdom is not of this world", but someone has to make the decisions that effect the kingdoms of this world until He comes again. To allow tyranny in the name of being a peacemaker is not my Christian ideal. I would think rather what Christ would have us do is to use war as a last and just resort. Which conflicts in the past fit that description could be a matter for debate but to say war is never justified makes no sense. Even Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom."

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