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'Irreconcilable Islam' and Irascible Christianity, Part 2

[continued from part 1] If duplicity were the only moral failing in Gingrich's choice of language, then perhaps in humility we should let his comments slide, but it is not.

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More insidious than the free association of religious terrorism with the religion it masquerades as is the fact that such rhetoric is designed to ignite. Gingrich's language is incendiary, not just because it feeds the ought that religious radicals have with those who malign their creeds, but primarily because it gives oxygen to the unresolved prejudices in the U.S. that were shamed and driven underground by a King who laid them bare before the civilized world. The embarrassment, psychic dissonance, threatened moral superiority, and potential financial losses both here and abroad instigated by the civil rights movement necessitated a change in acceptable public behavior in the U.S.

However, as many of us have adult friends who for years have nursed grudges regarding perceived injustices in childhood, so too many have quietly coddled their prejudices and cobbled them together into awkward lenses through which they now interpret the world. Or they've formed those prejudices into the rough-hewn ideologies of sanctimonious hegemony, or even into the patchwork patriotism under which they now find comfort and affinity. And whether we call it nationalism, tribalism, nativism, or give it some other innocuous label, we can be sure that such prejudice is at the heart of this unabashed Birther-nonsense, ongoing gay-bashing, race-baiting, and Islam-hating and even an impetus for some of the Tea-partying of the past year.

Don't get me wrong. I get it. People, good people, are afraid. Notwithstanding, it is not a fear of what is or was or has been, but a fear of what might be because someone unlike one's self is clamoring to be heard (remember James Dobson's letter just before the 2008 election). Furthermore, it is a fear that cannot be named. To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world -- folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels." For them the "patriotic" (which has become such a malleable word) thing is to conserve the terms of our heretofore "prosperity" by inciting "healthy suspicion" of those who would seek to "modify," "alter," or "change" the terms in order to "enhance," "extend," and "expand" the prosperity. Inciting healthy suspicion is just code for giving oxygen to prejudice, the unleashed flames of which could consume us all.

Space will not allow me to detail the deep irony of Gingrich's disingenuous and incendiary labeling of the Other. Give too short and superficial an exposition, and those ideologically opposed to such self-critique will call it inadequate. One illustration too many and they will dismiss it as excessive and self-loathing. Suffice it to say that as long as we insist on naming the Other we will be at war with them. As soon as we accept their naming of themselves, we open the door for constructive conversation and potential cooperation. Why can't we listen to our Muslim compatriots for the language by which to designate the radicals who defame their beautiful religion? That's not a matter of political correctness, Mr. Gingrich; it's the Golden Rule.

Melvin BrayMelvin Bray (melvinbray.com) is a devoted husband, committed father, learner, teacher, writer, storyteller, purveyor of sustainability, and believer in possibilities. He is a contributing author to the recent compilation Audacity of Faith: Christian Leaders Reflect on the Election of Barack Obama (Judson Press) and an active participant in the Emergent Village.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:58pm

A character which has a habit of making claims based on his opinion. Joined at the hip is a loose statement. you can say alot of conservatives are christian which is true but this doesnt get your point across the way you want it to does it. There is a skrewed line between honesty and opinion. To state something in a way to make a point though you know it really isnt actually true. Your just playing on the fence hopeing noone will call you on it. The arguement is for you to be completely honest. Its fine becasue you say it is, even though it may offend others with a different view. Thats the fine line we play here bordering on being kicked off. but I dont think that was my point.

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:48pm

you seriousely believe the honesty of those sites. you believe micheal moore. My friend was over there and most of the blood shed was from the hate between sunnis and shi'ites. They kill each other all the time. They have killed their own for years and years. You need to get FACTS right.

by: BlueDeacon

01-12-2010 @ 10:41pm

If you're an American, you know full well that evangelical Christianity and
conservative ideology are almost joined at the hip in this country -- and
since this is a Christian blog it's fine to make that assertion. Now, you're
allowed to disagree with me; that said, you have to come up with an effective
argument rather than attack my character.

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:29pm

do you guys ever reread your statements. "ITS often "conservatives" wh o set themselves up against God even as they claim to operate in his name" For one conservatism doesnt nessecarily include christians. its a political ideaoligy. And for you to even make a statement, one must conclude you are the knower of all things and sees things so clearly he is afforded the right to make such a claim. It amazes me how you think sometimes. HIS point is the same as yours, the lack of thinking past your nose. To claim your the right side at the same time speaking as though others should see this and excuse your arragance of it.

by: thebootedone

01-10-2010 @ 7:34pm

I thought he had an issue with Newt, I think it goes that he dislikes those he disagrees with, or those conservatives. Oh they are rasdicalneo conservatives. At least to him they are neo-conservatives. amazing how one can place names on people and complain about it at the same time. but maybe its JUST HIS opinion. Just like its my opinion and there opinion. we are all wrong probably as much as were right. We all have some point to share or truth to share. Its picking that truth out instead of picking that person off and discounting what they say. Thats the whole point of politics and political viewpoints and sharing them. This site isnt any different then rushes or others in that they share there view and we all agree or disagree but hopefully get closer to what is right or truth. It does get old reading peole complaiin about others doing what there doing in one way or another.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 3:54pm

Great Post Pastor Jeff. When you force your opponents to attack your character because they can't form a logical response to your statements, you've done your job.

by: Ngchen

01-08-2010 @ 11:00pm

Such groups are termed "hate groups" on said website.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:54pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels."

Obviously, you have not a clue what you're talking about. The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

I suggest that if you're going to malign people, you at least show some intellectual honesty.

by: Jeff S.

01-13-2010 @ 1:45pm

The news report on Michael Moore's page is a feed from the Associated Press - it also appeared in my local paper (I should have know that I would "ruffled feathers" by using MM's page as a link instead of another!).
This report uses figures from the U.N. and NATO:
The U.N. reports that 2,021 civilians were killed in the first 10 months of last year, the latest figures available. Of the total, nearly 1,400 were blamed on insurgents and 465 on U.S. and other pro-government forces, the U.N. said.
NATO, which also tracks civilian deaths, said that international forces caused 190 civilian deaths last year and wounded 344 noncombatants. In contrast, NATO reported that insurgents were responsible for 1,011 civilian deaths and that militants wounded 2,407.

So you are saying that since THEY (insurgents/Sunnis/Shi"ites) murder their own people, it's OK that WE DO? Tragically, 2,740 innocent Americans civilians died on 9/11. But how are we any better by retaliating and killing innocent people over there (which has FAR exceeded 2,740 by ANYONE'S count)?

Jesus wanted to show us a different way: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:55pm

I meant to add the link, since no doubt, it will be asked for.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 1:31pm

The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

Uh -- a little context, please. The Republican National Committee sponsored "Barack, the Magic Negro," a musical parody of "Puff the Magic Dragon" that Limbaugh broadcast on his show, and that's what Bray was referring to.

by: fundamentalist

01-06-2010 @ 1:37pm

I would like to know what label Melvin would give to Al Qaeda. Muslims recognize that Al Qaeda and its followers are different from mainstream Islam. Muslims call them extremists and terrorists. What does Melvin want to call them?

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 1:42pm

Obviously, you did not read my post. I was the one providing context to the "magic negro" comment. In no way, shape or form does Bray refer to the RNC, but to Limbaugh...

And as far the musical parody you refer to, your facts are incorrect. It was written by Paul Shanklin, and while used by Chip Saltsman in his bid to be the chair of the Republican National Committee, it was not sponsored by the RNC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_the_Magic_N...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 2:04pm

I thus stand corrected concerning the origins of the song, but the fact remains that Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama, which is where Bray was going with it. Most people outside LA would have never read or ever heard of that piece -- whose author, BTW, is himself black -- which was specifically referring to a "non-threatening" black man. That's not at all how Limbaugh was using the phrase.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-06-2010 @ 2:20pm

"...it feeds the ought that religious radicals have with those who malign their creeds..."

How exactly does one "feed an ought"? What do oughts eat?

"And whether we call it nationalism, tribalism, nativism, or give it some other innocuous label..."

So these are all innocuous now? When did that happen?

"...someone unlike one's self is clamoring to be heard..." No, terrorists are not clamoring to be heard, they are clamoring to kill. This is not about persuasion. Dead people cannot be persuaded."

"Space will not allow me to detail the deep irony of Gingrich's disingenuous and incendiary labeling of the Other."

I dunno about that, space is pretty big. But it is also empty, as is the rhetoric of this post. Melvin Bray may not like Gingrich's language, and maybe Newt could have chosen his words more carefully, but the man has a point, and it's an important point, and all the griping about The Unlovely Naming Of The Other does not make that point go away.

For once we have looked upon evil, and it was not perpetrated by a white Christian male. This has led Mr. Bray into embarrassment, psychic dissonance, and threatened moral superiority. My prayers are with him.

LV

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 2:55pm

"Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama"

False. From the Wikipedia article..."Shandlin impersonates black activist Al Sharpton, who regretfully sings that white people will vote for Barack Obama for President instead of Sharpton, because Obama is a magical Negro (a term previously popularized by Spike Lee), not a real black man from the 'hood'."

"Most people outside LA would have never read or even heard of that piece"

Which demonstrates the pure ignorance of people. I typed the words "magic negro" into Google, the LA Times article was the third result. My 11 year-old knows how to use Google. This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought.

If you say it is racist, it must be. After all, no one would oppose President Obama for his policies...

by: LadyJess78

01-06-2010 @ 2:57pm

Why can't we just call Al Qaeda, "Al Qaeda?" Why do we have to label them as a "wing of Islam" like David Koresh was a "wing of Christianity?" Or as Islamofascists? Are abortion clinic bombers Christianofascists? Constantly inserting Islam into their "labels" legitimizes their connection to a faith that does not believe as they believe, act as they act or embrace their actions and beliefs.

by: Ngchen

01-08-2010 @ 11:00pm

Such groups are termed "hate groups" on said website.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 3:07pm

At this point I would say that you're the one being disingenuous here. We all know that Limbaugh has made a ton of money skewering people, even finding or inventing ways to do so; Limbaugh's point was, and is, that if you vote for anyone who's not a conservative Republican there's something wrong with you and that, essentially, you're not fit to live. In this case, Obama is a black Bill Clinton -- a "pied piper," if you will.

At bottom, this is about not so much policies per se but worldviews -- and Limbaugh's worldview is that people who are not like him are deviants. And that's the basic message Gingrich was trying to deliver.

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 3:27pm

Lord,

Once again your reaction to Mr. Bray's post reveals the utter hatred that the Religious Right have for anything or anyone who writes about the deep divisions that are froming in our country. you might have avoided the embarrassment that accompanies your missive by consulting your dictionary (there's one on-line if you can't afford one) and discovering that there is more than one definition for the word "ought." And you might have wanted to read the context before you took Mr. Bray to task for "...someone unlike one's self..." comment. Nowhere in his post is he claiming that "terrorists are clamoring to be heard."

But your post clearly illustrates the truth of Mr. Bray's post. Like their hero Limbaugh, those on the Religious Right simply invent new facts or distort what their opponents write in order to score political points.

by: jesse3

01-06-2010 @ 3:29pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels.""
--I like that the word "unpatriotic" is in quotes...surely you will be able to find a quote from any of these people in which this exact word is used. Why put it in quotes, then?

As I recall, the most recent and high profile attack against one's lack of patriotism was from Speaker Pelosi in her labeling of her opponents as "un-American." (Note: I put that word in quotes because that is the exact word she used)

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 3:36pm

Like when Sarah Palin said that she could "see Russia from her house"?

Oh, I know...that Trig Palin was really Bristol's kid and Sarah was covering for her?

"Facts" like those?

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 4:45pm

Your comparison of the Russia quote from SNL gives that media outlet the same credibility as Fox News. But then neither of them claim 99 and 44/100% accuracy.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 5:10pm

Except that the quote from SNL was actually attributed to Gov Palin by a media and then a populace that could care less about facts.

Which is my point, and yours. For you to assert that it is only the "religious right" (whatever that even means) is to act like their opponents are perfect and consistent, which they are not.

by: Naomi 'Reynolds' Brodock

01-06-2010 @ 7:19pm

I like all these petty arguments about the wording. They are a wonderful distraction from the main point. Let me ask this, one question. When you think of Islam, do you think of peaceful people living in accordance to a religion that the believe to be peaceful? Or do you think of extremists who you have tied to the Islamic faith. Maybe you think that Islam is not primarily a violent faith, but there are elements of it that will always seek religious based war, founded in its fundamental truths.

But just remember, what Jesus. "By the measure you use, it will be measured to you." If we chose to judge Muslims based on the few extremists, who are probably identify their motivation as religious when it is socio-politico, then we must also be judged by those few extremists whose violence we cringe at. Most Christians, even Christians who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, cringe at the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps, but if that is what we do to the Muslims, we must be prepared to answer for his behaviour. Or White Supremists who quote the Bible hand in hand with racist indoctrination. We must be measured not by our best, but by our worst. And we must accept that if this IS a religious war, then perhaps those Muslim extremists are not separating Christianity from the other less desirable elements of our culture: prostitution, pornography, fraud, military violence - we have to accept those all being breathed hand in hand with Christianity. And if the behavior of those Muslim extremists justifies our war against them, then visa versa could also be true.

I'm not saying I believe all of the above. But if we give into this mentality we are no better, and we will never be able to reverse the cycle of violence until we seek to understand and forgive those who hate us. And I cannot stand comments like Newt Gingrich's because they dominate our public discourse. When was the last time you saw a panel of people discussing how Islam has affected the world for good, while only a few comments are made about the bad? And just so you know, historically speaking, Islam has brought much wealth, prosperity and stability to regions of the world.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:54pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels."

Obviously, you have not a clue what you're talking about. The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

I suggest that if you're going to malign people, you at least show some intellectual honesty.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:55pm

I meant to add the link, since no doubt, it will be asked for.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 1:31pm

The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

Uh -- a little context, please. The Republican National Committee sponsored "Barack, the Magic Negro," a musical parody of "Puff the Magic Dragon" that Limbaugh broadcast on his show, and that's what Bray was referring to.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-06-2010 @ 8:56pm

'"This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought."

Hence the popularity of Limbaugh, Hannity and Fox nation.

by: fundamentalist

01-06-2010 @ 1:37pm

I would like to know what label Melvin would give to Al Qaeda. Muslims recognize that Al Qaeda and its followers are different from mainstream Islam. Muslims call them extremists and terrorists. What does Melvin want to call them?

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 1:42pm

Obviously, you did not read my post. I was the one providing context to the "magic negro" comment. In no way, shape or form does Bray refer to the RNC, but to Limbaugh...

And as far the musical parody you refer to, your facts are incorrect. It was written by Paul Shanklin, and while used by Chip Saltsman in his bid to be the chair of the Republican National Committee, it was not sponsored by the RNC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_the_Magic_N...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 2:04pm

I thus stand corrected concerning the origins of the song, but the fact remains that Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama, which is where Bray was going with it. Most people outside LA would have never read or ever heard of that piece -- whose author, BTW, is himself black -- which was specifically referring to a "non-threatening" black man. That's not at all how Limbaugh was using the phrase.

by: Jeff S.

01-13-2010 @ 11:45am

The news report on Michael Moore's page is a feed from the Associated Press - it also appeared in my local paper (I should have know that I would "ruffled feathers" by using MM's page as a link instead of another!).
This report uses figures from the U.N. and NATO:
The U.N. reports that 2,021 civilians were killed in the first 10 months of last year, the latest figures available. Of the total, nearly 1,400 were blamed on insurgents and 465 on U.S. and other pro-government forces, the U.N. said.
NATO, which also tracks civilian deaths, said that international forces caused 190 civilian deaths last year and wounded 344 noncombatants. In contrast, NATO reported that insurgents were responsible for 1,011 civilian deaths and that militants wounded 2,407.

So you are saying that since THEY (insurgents/Sunnis/Shi"ites) murder their own people, it's OK that WE DO? Tragically, 2,740 innocent Americans civilians died on 9/11. But how are we any better by retaliating and killing innocent people over there (which has FAR exceeded 2,740 by ANYONE'S count)?

Jesus wanted to show us a different way: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:58pm

A character which has a habit of making claims based on his opinion. Joined at the hip is a loose statement. you can say alot of conservatives are christian which is true but this doesnt get your point across the way you want it to does it. There is a skrewed line between honesty and opinion. To state something in a way to make a point though you know it really isnt actually true. Your just playing on the fence hopeing noone will call you on it. The arguement is for you to be completely honest. Its fine becasue you say it is, even though it may offend others with a different view. Thats the fine line we play here bordering on being kicked off. but I dont think that was my point.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 12:53am

There is nothing wrong with calling al Qaeda al Qaeda. But the problem is that there actually is a common thread among the extremist elements that the civilized world is in conflict with; calling said thread by a common name (e.g. Islamism) is simply calling a spade a spade. Of course, we should in all fairness point out that said extremists are a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Muslims, in the same way that the KKK constitutes a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Christian.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-06-2010 @ 2:20pm

"...it feeds the ought that religious radicals have with those who malign their creeds..."

How exactly does one "feed an ought"? What do oughts eat?

"And whether we call it nationalism, tribalism, nativism, or give it some other innocuous label..."

So these are all innocuous now? When did that happen?

"...someone unlike one's self is clamoring to be heard..." No, terrorists are not clamoring to be heard, they are clamoring to kill. This is not about persuasion. Dead people cannot be persuaded."

"Space will not allow me to detail the deep irony of Gingrich's disingenuous and incendiary labeling of the Other."

I dunno about that, space is pretty big. But it is also empty, as is the rhetoric of this post. Melvin Bray may not like Gingrich's language, and maybe Newt could have chosen his words more carefully, but the man has a point, and it's an important point, and all the griping about The Unlovely Naming Of The Other does not make that point go away.

For once we have looked upon evil, and it was not perpetrated by a white Christian male. This has led Mr. Bray into embarrassment, psychic dissonance, and threatened moral superiority. My prayers are with him.

LV

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:48pm

you seriousely believe the honesty of those sites. you believe micheal moore. My friend was over there and most of the blood shed was from the hate between sunnis and shi'ites. They kill each other all the time. They have killed their own for years and years. You need to get FACTS right.

by: BlueDeacon

01-12-2010 @ 10:41pm

If you're an American, you know full well that evangelical Christianity and
conservative ideology are almost joined at the hip in this country -- and
since this is a Christian blog it's fine to make that assertion. Now, you're
allowed to disagree with me; that said, you have to come up with an effective
argument rather than attack my character.

by: thebootedone

01-12-2010 @ 10:29pm

do you guys ever reread your statements. "ITS often "conservatives" wh o set themselves up against God even as they claim to operate in his name" For one conservatism doesnt nessecarily include christians. its a political ideaoligy. And for you to even make a statement, one must conclude you are the knower of all things and sees things so clearly he is afforded the right to make such a claim. It amazes me how you think sometimes. HIS point is the same as yours, the lack of thinking past your nose. To claim your the right side at the same time speaking as though others should see this and excuse your arragance of it.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 1:20am

How magnanimous. We call the common thread Islamism (literally: belief in Islam) and wink at the KKK in fairness.

by: thebootedone

01-10-2010 @ 7:34pm

I thought he had an issue with Newt, I think it goes that he dislikes those he disagrees with, or those conservatives. Oh they are rasdicalneo conservatives. At least to him they are neo-conservatives. amazing how one can place names on people and complain about it at the same time. but maybe its JUST HIS opinion. Just like its my opinion and there opinion. we are all wrong probably as much as were right. We all have some point to share or truth to share. Its picking that truth out instead of picking that person off and discounting what they say. Thats the whole point of politics and political viewpoints and sharing them. This site isnt any different then rushes or others in that they share there view and we all agree or disagree but hopefully get closer to what is right or truth. It does get old reading peole complaiin about others doing what there doing in one way or another.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 1:36am

To clarify, when I use the term "Islamist" I mean it in the sense given by apologeticsindex.com, where Islam is morphed into a political ideology, with corresponding oppression of women, beheadings, amputations, legalism (!), and other violence. Belief in Islam itself are properly termed something else - the believers in Islam are properly termed Muslims.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 3:54pm

Great Post Pastor Jeff. When you force your opponents to attack your character because they can't form a logical response to your statements, you've done your job.

by: LadyJess78

01-07-2010 @ 1:48am

I'm not sure you can draw the same line when Muslims are attacked, racially profiled and discriminated against. When was the last time you were strip searched at the airport because of KKK activity?

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 2:55pm

"Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama"

False. From the Wikipedia article..."Shandlin impersonates black activist Al Sharpton, who regretfully sings that white people will vote for Barack Obama for President instead of Sharpton, because Obama is a magical Negro (a term previously popularized by Spike Lee), not a real black man from the 'hood'."

"Most people outside LA would have never read or even heard of that piece"

Which demonstrates the pure ignorance of people. I typed the words "magic negro" into Google, the LA Times article was the third result. My 11 year-old knows how to use Google. This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought.

If you say it is racist, it must be. After all, no one would oppose President Obama for his policies...

by: LadyJess78

01-06-2010 @ 2:57pm

Why can't we just call Al Qaeda, "Al Qaeda?" Why do we have to label them as a "wing of Islam" like David Koresh was a "wing of Christianity?" Or as Islamofascists? Are abortion clinic bombers Christianofascists? Constantly inserting Islam into their "labels" legitimizes their connection to a faith that does not believe as they believe, act as they act or embrace their actions and beliefs.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 3:07pm

At this point I would say that you're the one being disingenuous here. We all know that Limbaugh has made a ton of money skewering people, even finding or inventing ways to do so; Limbaugh's point was, and is, that if you vote for anyone who's not a conservative Republican there's something wrong with you and that, essentially, you're not fit to live. In this case, Obama is a black Bill Clinton -- a "pied piper," if you will.

At bottom, this is about not so much policies per se but worldviews -- and Limbaugh's worldview is that people who are not like him are deviants. And that's the basic message Gingrich was trying to deliver.

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 3:27pm

Lord,

Once again your reaction to Mr. Bray's post reveals the utter hatred that the Religious Right have for anything or anyone who writes about the deep divisions that are froming in our country. you might have avoided the embarrassment that accompanies your missive by consulting your dictionary (there's one on-line if you can't afford one) and discovering that there is more than one definition for the word "ought." And you might have wanted to read the context before you took Mr. Bray to task for "...someone unlike one's self..." comment. Nowhere in his post is he claiming that "terrorists are clamoring to be heard."

But your post clearly illustrates the truth of Mr. Bray's post. Like their hero Limbaugh, those on the Religious Right simply invent new facts or distort what their opponents write in order to score political points.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 7:03am

Very true. I'm willing to bet the reason why such has not yet happened is that the KKK hasn't pulled off any spectacular terrorist attacks in quite some time. IIRC the last major KKK attack involved the lynching of a black man in Alabama which led to the execution of the perpetrator and the bankruptcy of that particular Klan.

That being said, it is wrong to discriminate against people, regardless of who the "target" is. Also, FWIW, there is no "Muslim" look to profile against anyway, even if one wanted to go down that despicable road.

by: jesse3

01-06-2010 @ 3:29pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels.""
--I like that the word "unpatriotic" is in quotes...surely you will be able to find a quote from any of these people in which this exact word is used. Why put it in quotes, then?

As I recall, the most recent and high profile attack against one's lack of patriotism was from Speaker Pelosi in her labeling of her opponents as "un-American." (Note: I put that word in quotes because that is the exact word she used)

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by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:54pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels."

Obviously, you have not a clue what you're talking about. The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

I suggest that if you're going to malign people, you at least show some intellectual honesty.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:54pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels."

Obviously, you have not a clue what you're talking about. The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

I suggest that if you're going to malign people, you at least show some intellectual honesty.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:55pm

I meant to add the link, since no doubt, it will be asked for.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 12:55pm

I meant to add the link, since no doubt, it will be asked for.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 1:31pm

The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

Uh -- a little context, please. The Republican National Committee sponsored "Barack, the Magic Negro," a musical parody of "Puff the Magic Dragon" that Limbaugh broadcast on his show, and that's what Bray was referring to.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 1:31pm

The phrase "magic negro" as attributed to Barack Obama was NOT done by Rush Limbaugh, but from a 2007 LA Times op/ed called "Obama the 'magic negro'".

Uh -- a little context, please. The Republican National Committee sponsored "Barack, the Magic Negro," a musical parody of "Puff the Magic Dragon" that Limbaugh broadcast on his show, and that's what Bray was referring to.

by: fundamentalist

01-06-2010 @ 1:37pm

I would like to know what label Melvin would give to Al Qaeda. Muslims recognize that Al Qaeda and its followers are different from mainstream Islam. Muslims call them extremists and terrorists. What does Melvin want to call them?

by: fundamentalist

01-06-2010 @ 1:37pm

I would like to know what label Melvin would give to Al Qaeda. Muslims recognize that Al Qaeda and its followers are different from mainstream Islam. Muslims call them extremists and terrorists. What does Melvin want to call them?

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 1:42pm

Obviously, you did not read my post. I was the one providing context to the "magic negro" comment. In no way, shape or form does Bray refer to the RNC, but to Limbaugh...

And as far the musical parody you refer to, your facts are incorrect. It was written by Paul Shanklin, and while used by Chip Saltsman in his bid to be the chair of the Republican National Committee, it was not sponsored by the RNC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_the_Magic_N...

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 1:42pm

Obviously, you did not read my post. I was the one providing context to the "magic negro" comment. In no way, shape or form does Bray refer to the RNC, but to Limbaugh...

And as far the musical parody you refer to, your facts are incorrect. It was written by Paul Shanklin, and while used by Chip Saltsman in his bid to be the chair of the Republican National Committee, it was not sponsored by the RNC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_the_Magic_N...

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 2:04pm

I thus stand corrected concerning the origins of the song, but the fact remains that Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama, which is where Bray was going with it. Most people outside LA would have never read or ever heard of that piece -- whose author, BTW, is himself black -- which was specifically referring to a "non-threatening" black man. That's not at all how Limbaugh was using the phrase.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 2:04pm

I thus stand corrected concerning the origins of the song, but the fact remains that Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama, which is where Bray was going with it. Most people outside LA would have never read or ever heard of that piece -- whose author, BTW, is himself black -- which was specifically referring to a "non-threatening" black man. That's not at all how Limbaugh was using the phrase.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-06-2010 @ 2:20pm

"...it feeds the ought that religious radicals have with those who malign their creeds..."

How exactly does one "feed an ought"? What do oughts eat?

"And whether we call it nationalism, tribalism, nativism, or give it some other innocuous label..."

So these are all innocuous now? When did that happen?

"...someone unlike one's self is clamoring to be heard..." No, terrorists are not clamoring to be heard, they are clamoring to kill. This is not about persuasion. Dead people cannot be persuaded."

"Space will not allow me to detail the deep irony of Gingrich's disingenuous and incendiary labeling of the Other."

I dunno about that, space is pretty big. But it is also empty, as is the rhetoric of this post. Melvin Bray may not like Gingrich's language, and maybe Newt could have chosen his words more carefully, but the man has a point, and it's an important point, and all the griping about The Unlovely Naming Of The Other does not make that point go away.

For once we have looked upon evil, and it was not perpetrated by a white Christian male. This has led Mr. Bray into embarrassment, psychic dissonance, and threatened moral superiority. My prayers are with him.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-06-2010 @ 2:20pm

"...it feeds the ought that religious radicals have with those who malign their creeds..."

How exactly does one "feed an ought"? What do oughts eat?

"And whether we call it nationalism, tribalism, nativism, or give it some other innocuous label..."

So these are all innocuous now? When did that happen?

"...someone unlike one's self is clamoring to be heard..." No, terrorists are not clamoring to be heard, they are clamoring to kill. This is not about persuasion. Dead people cannot be persuaded."

"Space will not allow me to detail the deep irony of Gingrich's disingenuous and incendiary labeling of the Other."

I dunno about that, space is pretty big. But it is also empty, as is the rhetoric of this post. Melvin Bray may not like Gingrich's language, and maybe Newt could have chosen his words more carefully, but the man has a point, and it's an important point, and all the griping about The Unlovely Naming Of The Other does not make that point go away.

For once we have looked upon evil, and it was not perpetrated by a white Christian male. This has led Mr. Bray into embarrassment, psychic dissonance, and threatened moral superiority. My prayers are with him.

LV

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 2:55pm

"Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama"

False. From the Wikipedia article..."Shandlin impersonates black activist Al Sharpton, who regretfully sings that white people will vote for Barack Obama for President instead of Sharpton, because Obama is a magical Negro (a term previously popularized by Spike Lee), not a real black man from the 'hood'."

"Most people outside LA would have never read or even heard of that piece"

Which demonstrates the pure ignorance of people. I typed the words "magic negro" into Google, the LA Times article was the third result. My 11 year-old knows how to use Google. This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought.

If you say it is racist, it must be. After all, no one would oppose President Obama for his policies...

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 2:55pm

"Limbaugh played it on the air to ridicule Obama"

False. From the Wikipedia article..."Shandlin impersonates black activist Al Sharpton, who regretfully sings that white people will vote for Barack Obama for President instead of Sharpton, because Obama is a magical Negro (a term previously popularized by Spike Lee), not a real black man from the 'hood'."

"Most people outside LA would have never read or even heard of that piece"

Which demonstrates the pure ignorance of people. I typed the words "magic negro" into Google, the LA Times article was the third result. My 11 year-old knows how to use Google. This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought.

If you say it is racist, it must be. After all, no one would oppose President Obama for his policies...

by: LadyJess78

01-06-2010 @ 2:57pm

Why can't we just call Al Qaeda, "Al Qaeda?" Why do we have to label them as a "wing of Islam" like David Koresh was a "wing of Christianity?" Or as Islamofascists? Are abortion clinic bombers Christianofascists? Constantly inserting Islam into their "labels" legitimizes their connection to a faith that does not believe as they believe, act as they act or embrace their actions and beliefs.

by: LadyJess78

01-06-2010 @ 2:57pm

Why can't we just call Al Qaeda, "Al Qaeda?" Why do we have to label them as a "wing of Islam" like David Koresh was a "wing of Christianity?" Or as Islamofascists? Are abortion clinic bombers Christianofascists? Constantly inserting Islam into their "labels" legitimizes their connection to a faith that does not believe as they believe, act as they act or embrace their actions and beliefs.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 3:07pm

At this point I would say that you're the one being disingenuous here. We all know that Limbaugh has made a ton of money skewering people, even finding or inventing ways to do so; Limbaugh's point was, and is, that if you vote for anyone who's not a conservative Republican there's something wrong with you and that, essentially, you're not fit to live. In this case, Obama is a black Bill Clinton -- a "pied piper," if you will.

At bottom, this is about not so much policies per se but worldviews -- and Limbaugh's worldview is that people who are not like him are deviants. And that's the basic message Gingrich was trying to deliver.

by: BlueDeacon

01-06-2010 @ 3:07pm

At this point I would say that you're the one being disingenuous here. We all know that Limbaugh has made a ton of money skewering people, even finding or inventing ways to do so; Limbaugh's point was, and is, that if you vote for anyone who's not a conservative Republican there's something wrong with you and that, essentially, you're not fit to live. In this case, Obama is a black Bill Clinton -- a "pied piper," if you will.

At bottom, this is about not so much policies per se but worldviews -- and Limbaugh's worldview is that people who are not like him are deviants. And that's the basic message Gingrich was trying to deliver.

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 3:27pm

Lord,

Once again your reaction to Mr. Bray's post reveals the utter hatred that the Religious Right have for anything or anyone who writes about the deep divisions that are froming in our country. you might have avoided the embarrassment that accompanies your missive by consulting your dictionary (there's one on-line if you can't afford one) and discovering that there is more than one definition for the word "ought." And you might have wanted to read the context before you took Mr. Bray to task for "...someone unlike one's self..." comment. Nowhere in his post is he claiming that "terrorists are clamoring to be heard."

But your post clearly illustrates the truth of Mr. Bray's post. Like their hero Limbaugh, those on the Religious Right simply invent new facts or distort what their opponents write in order to score political points.

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 3:27pm

Lord,

Once again your reaction to Mr. Bray's post reveals the utter hatred that the Religious Right have for anything or anyone who writes about the deep divisions that are froming in our country. you might have avoided the embarrassment that accompanies your missive by consulting your dictionary (there's one on-line if you can't afford one) and discovering that there is more than one definition for the word "ought." And you might have wanted to read the context before you took Mr. Bray to task for "...someone unlike one's self..." comment. Nowhere in his post is he claiming that "terrorists are clamoring to be heard."

But your post clearly illustrates the truth of Mr. Bray's post. Like their hero Limbaugh, those on the Religious Right simply invent new facts or distort what their opponents write in order to score political points.

by: jesse3

01-06-2010 @ 3:29pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels.""
--I like that the word "unpatriotic" is in quotes...surely you will be able to find a quote from any of these people in which this exact word is used. Why put it in quotes, then?

As I recall, the most recent and high profile attack against one's lack of patriotism was from Speaker Pelosi in her labeling of her opponents as "un-American." (Note: I put that word in quotes because that is the exact word she used)

by: jesse3

01-06-2010 @ 3:29pm

"To name it as a fear unworthy of the American people has been deemed 'unpatriotic' by the Dick Cheneys, Rush Limbaughs and Sarah Palins of the world - folks who accrue power and/or amass wealth from talk of "Islamofacists," "Magic Negros," and "death panels.""
--I like that the word "unpatriotic" is in quotes...surely you will be able to find a quote from any of these people in which this exact word is used. Why put it in quotes, then?

As I recall, the most recent and high profile attack against one's lack of patriotism was from Speaker Pelosi in her labeling of her opponents as "un-American." (Note: I put that word in quotes because that is the exact word she used)

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 3:36pm

Like when Sarah Palin said that she could "see Russia from her house"?

Oh, I know...that Trig Palin was really Bristol's kid and Sarah was covering for her?

"Facts" like those?

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 3:36pm

Like when Sarah Palin said that she could "see Russia from her house"?

Oh, I know...that Trig Palin was really Bristol's kid and Sarah was covering for her?

"Facts" like those?

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 4:45pm

Your comparison of the Russia quote from SNL gives that media outlet the same credibility as Fox News. But then neither of them claim 99 and 44/100% accuracy.

by: SisterMarie

01-06-2010 @ 4:45pm

Your comparison of the Russia quote from SNL gives that media outlet the same credibility as Fox News. But then neither of them claim 99 and 44/100% accuracy.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 5:10pm

Except that the quote from SNL was actually attributed to Gov Palin by a media and then a populace that could care less about facts.

Which is my point, and yours. For you to assert that it is only the "religious right" (whatever that even means) is to act like their opponents are perfect and consistent, which they are not.

by: John Mulholland

01-06-2010 @ 5:10pm

Except that the quote from SNL was actually attributed to Gov Palin by a media and then a populace that could care less about facts.

Which is my point, and yours. For you to assert that it is only the "religious right" (whatever that even means) is to act like their opponents are perfect and consistent, which they are not.

by: Naomi 'Reynolds' Brodock

01-06-2010 @ 7:19pm

I like all these petty arguments about the wording. They are a wonderful distraction from the main point. Let me ask this, one question. When you think of Islam, do you think of peaceful people living in accordance to a religion that the believe to be peaceful? Or do you think of extremists who you have tied to the Islamic faith. Maybe you think that Islam is not primarily a violent faith, but there are elements of it that will always seek religious based war, founded in its fundamental truths.

But just remember, what Jesus. "By the measure you use, it will be measured to you." If we chose to judge Muslims based on the few extremists, who are probably identify their motivation as religious when it is socio-politico, then we must also be judged by those few extremists whose violence we cringe at. Most Christians, even Christians who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, cringe at the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps, but if that is what we do to the Muslims, we must be prepared to answer for his behaviour. Or White Supremists who quote the Bible hand in hand with racist indoctrination. We must be measured not by our best, but by our worst. And we must accept that if this IS a religious war, then perhaps those Muslim extremists are not separating Christianity from the other less desirable elements of our culture: prostitution, pornography, fraud, military violence - we have to accept those all being breathed hand in hand with Christianity. And if the behavior of those Muslim extremists justifies our war against them, then visa versa could also be true.

I'm not saying I believe all of the above. But if we give into this mentality we are no better, and we will never be able to reverse the cycle of violence until we seek to understand and forgive those who hate us. And I cannot stand comments like Newt Gingrich's because they dominate our public discourse. When was the last time you saw a panel of people discussing how Islam has affected the world for good, while only a few comments are made about the bad? And just so you know, historically speaking, Islam has brought much wealth, prosperity and stability to regions of the world.

by: Naomi 'Reynolds' Brodock

01-06-2010 @ 7:19pm

I like all these petty arguments about the wording. They are a wonderful distraction from the main point. Let me ask this, one question. When you think of Islam, do you think of peaceful people living in accordance to a religion that the believe to be peaceful? Or do you think of extremists who you have tied to the Islamic faith. Maybe you think that Islam is not primarily a violent faith, but there are elements of it that will always seek religious based war, founded in its fundamental truths.

But just remember, what Jesus. "By the measure you use, it will be measured to you." If we chose to judge Muslims based on the few extremists, who are probably identify their motivation as religious when it is socio-politico, then we must also be judged by those few extremists whose violence we cringe at. Most Christians, even Christians who disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, cringe at the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps, but if that is what we do to the Muslims, we must be prepared to answer for his behaviour. Or White Supremists who quote the Bible hand in hand with racist indoctrination. We must be measured not by our best, but by our worst. And we must accept that if this IS a religious war, then perhaps those Muslim extremists are not separating Christianity from the other less desirable elements of our culture: prostitution, pornography, fraud, military violence - we have to accept those all being breathed hand in hand with Christianity. And if the behavior of those Muslim extremists justifies our war against them, then visa versa could also be true.

I'm not saying I believe all of the above. But if we give into this mentality we are no better, and we will never be able to reverse the cycle of violence until we seek to understand and forgive those who hate us. And I cannot stand comments like Newt Gingrich's because they dominate our public discourse. When was the last time you saw a panel of people discussing how Islam has affected the world for good, while only a few comments are made about the bad? And just so you know, historically speaking, Islam has brought much wealth, prosperity and stability to regions of the world.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-06-2010 @ 8:56pm

'"This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought."

Hence the popularity of Limbaugh, Hannity and Fox nation.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-06-2010 @ 8:56pm

'"This is an indication of an electorate that is not only incapable of thinking for itself, unable to form an abstract thought."

Hence the popularity of Limbaugh, Hannity and Fox nation.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 12:53am

There is nothing wrong with calling al Qaeda al Qaeda. But the problem is that there actually is a common thread among the extremist elements that the civilized world is in conflict with; calling said thread by a common name (e.g. Islamism) is simply calling a spade a spade. Of course, we should in all fairness point out that said extremists are a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Muslims, in the same way that the KKK constitutes a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Christian.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 12:53am

There is nothing wrong with calling al Qaeda al Qaeda. But the problem is that there actually is a common thread among the extremist elements that the civilized world is in conflict with; calling said thread by a common name (e.g. Islamism) is simply calling a spade a spade. Of course, we should in all fairness point out that said extremists are a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Muslims, in the same way that the KKK constitutes a tiny percentage of those who claim to be Christian.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 1:20am

How magnanimous. We call the common thread Islamism (literally: belief in Islam) and wink at the KKK in fairness.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 1:20am

How magnanimous. We call the common thread Islamism (literally: belief in Islam) and wink at the KKK in fairness.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 1:36am

To clarify, when I use the term "Islamist" I mean it in the sense given by apologeticsindex.com, where Islam is morphed into a political ideology, with corresponding oppression of women, beheadings, amputations, legalism (!), and other violence. Belief in Islam itself are properly termed something else - the believers in Islam are properly termed Muslims.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 1:36am

To clarify, when I use the term "Islamist" I mean it in the sense given by apologeticsindex.com, where Islam is morphed into a political ideology, with corresponding oppression of women, beheadings, amputations, legalism (!), and other violence. Belief in Islam itself are properly termed something else - the believers in Islam are properly termed Muslims.

by: LadyJess78

01-07-2010 @ 1:48am

I'm not sure you can draw the same line when Muslims are attacked, racially profiled and discriminated against. When was the last time you were strip searched at the airport because of KKK activity?

by: LadyJess78

01-07-2010 @ 1:48am

I'm not sure you can draw the same line when Muslims are attacked, racially profiled and discriminated against. When was the last time you were strip searched at the airport because of KKK activity?

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 7:03am

Very true. I'm willing to bet the reason why such has not yet happened is that the KKK hasn't pulled off any spectacular terrorist attacks in quite some time. IIRC the last major KKK attack involved the lynching of a black man in Alabama which led to the execution of the perpetrator and the bankruptcy of that particular Klan.

That being said, it is wrong to discriminate against people, regardless of who the "target" is. Also, FWIW, there is no "Muslim" look to profile against anyway, even if one wanted to go down that despicable road.

by: Ngchen

01-07-2010 @ 7:03am

Very true. I'm willing to bet the reason why such has not yet happened is that the KKK hasn't pulled off any spectacular terrorist attacks in quite some time. IIRC the last major KKK attack involved the lynching of a black man in Alabama which led to the execution of the perpetrator and the bankruptcy of that particular Klan.

That being said, it is wrong to discriminate against people, regardless of who the "target" is. Also, FWIW, there is no "Muslim" look to profile against anyway, even if one wanted to go down that despicable road.

by: fundamentalist

01-07-2010 @ 10:55am

But the heart and soul of Al Qaeda is Islam. The KKK would still be the KKK without Christianity. Al Qaeda would cease to exist without Islam. We shouldn't call Al Qaeda simply Islamist (which is a stupid term; followers of Islam are Muslims) or Muslim, as that slanders all Muslims. But they are Muslim and they are fighting for their version of Islam. Probably the best we could do is call them Muslim terrorists.

We can't just call them Al Qaeda because that is a specific organization to which not all of them belong. There are dozens of different groups with Al Qaeda's ideology and religion. They all come from the Muslim Brotherhood (the official name of the organization) which has practiced murder and terror since the end of WWI in their effort to restore the Muslim Caliphate.

by: fundamentalist

01-07-2010 @ 10:55am

But the heart and soul of Al Qaeda is Islam. The KKK would still be the KKK without Christianity. Al Qaeda would cease to exist without Islam. We shouldn't call Al Qaeda simply Islamist (which is a stupid term; followers of Islam are Muslims) or Muslim, as that slanders all Muslims. But they are Muslim and they are fighting for their version of Islam. Probably the best we could do is call them Muslim terrorists.

We can't just call them Al Qaeda because that is a specific organization to which not all of them belong. There are dozens of different groups with Al Qaeda's ideology and religion. They all come from the Muslim Brotherhood (the official name of the organization) which has practiced murder and terror since the end of WWI in their effort to restore the Muslim Caliphate.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 11:50am

And what does apologetics index call the violent, hate-mongering wing of Christianity?

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 11:50am

And what does apologetics index call the violent, hate-mongering wing of Christianity?

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 11:53am

If we name them we can kill them. We could just call them "other" which, I think, is Melvin's point.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-07-2010 @ 11:53am

If we name them we can kill them. We could just call them "other" which, I think, is Melvin's point.