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Last night at the historic Riverside Church, Jim Wallis, hosted by NY Faith & Justice, discussed his new book Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street -- A Moral Compass for the New Economy. The night opened with powerful singer Joy Ike, spoken word by Christopher Mullen, and introductions by Lisa Sharon Harper (Executive Director of NY Faith & Justice) and Rev. Gabriel Salguero.

The room was full of over 400 diverse New Yorkers who were eager to hear this alternative economic crisis conversation. Rev. Wallis stated in his keynote address:

We have been asking the wrong question, which is when will the crisis end -- not how the crisis will end. I think the country is ready for a new conversation on values. Let's start the conversation at all levels: Wall Street, Main Street, and your street. If we go back to normal -- to business as usual -- all the suffering of places like my hometown, Detroit, and New York will have been in vain.

Rev. Wallis compared Jon Stewart's landmark interview with Mad Money host Jim Cramer to Jesus overturning the money tables. One of the most thought provoking comments of the night was when Rev. Wallis stated, "Let's stop trying to keep up with the Joneses and make sure the Joneses are alright."

As a native New Yorker I am all too familiar with how being the center of economic power causes us to devalue our time. I think many New Yorkers would benefit from considering the fact that, as stated by Rev. Wallis, "a calendar is a moral document." What does it mean for us to consider calendar keeping as a spiritual practice? There is a connection between an unregulated economy and unregulated calendar -- the results are hurt individuals, families, communities, and churches.

A lively panel responded to Rev. Wallis's book. The panel was moderated by Lisa Sharon Harper and included the following figures: Dr. Obery Hendricks Jr., theologian and author of The Politics of Jesus; Patrick Purcell Jr., Asst. to the President of UFCW Local 1500; Tom Rodman, Director/Client Adviser at Deutsche Bank; and Maya Wiley, Executive Director at the Center for Social Action. Dr. Hendricks spoke of the lack of regulatory protection and the disbanding of this protection by those who worship the market. Mr Purchell spoke to the decline of the labor movement as one of the causes of the crisis and the 30 years of anti-labor sentiment in our country. Ms. Wiley spoke to the complexity of systems that contributed to the crisis such as the sub-prime market, which is a new development. This was not only a class issue but a race issue. Black families making over $350,000 a year were more likely to receive a sub-prime mortgage. Black and Latino families make about 60 cents of the white dollar. Consider the sobering statistic that 25% of Black and Latino men between the ages of 18 and 25 are unemployed. Patrick Purcell, Jr. stated, "it's not about the ideological arguments between capitalism and communism, but about balance."

Questions from the audience brought up issues such as distributive justice, which led to a brief discussion that touched on social exclusion and the emerging green economy, what sector of society is responsible for resetting the moral compass of our country, and what type of mobilization can jump-start change.

Overall this was an engaging and thought-provoking night of dialogue and collaboration. This event was co-sponsored by the following groups: Coalition of Educational Justice, Judson Memorial Church, Federation of Protestant Welfare Agencies, Interfaith Center of New York, Latino Leadership Circle, Marble Collegiate Church, Metro Hope Church, New York Theological Seminary, NY Divinity School, Presbytery of New York City, The Harlem House, Radical Living, Rainbow Coalition-1000 Churches Initiative, Trinity Grace Church, Uth Turn, Voterbook Manhattan, and World Vision.

Questions to consider:

  1. What is good work from a biblical point of view?
  2. What would jubilee economics look like in our society?
  3. Is there a need for distributive justice? Does the Bible advocate for this type of justice?

Resource: To find out about banking alternatives visit www.moveyourmoney.info

portrait-onleilove-alstonOnleilove Alston is a student at Union Theological Seminary and Columbia University School of Social Work. She organizes with NY Faith & Justice and the Poverty Initiative. During the summer of 2008 she served at Sojourners as a Beatitudes Society Fellow. You can visit her blog Esther's Call.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: ckgmail

01-12-2010 @ 2:07pm

Well Hammerud, when were we a Christian nation? I don't need an exact date, just an era? Was it the colonial era, even before we were a nation, when the colonists began to steal the lands of the natives. Or maybe it was the slavery era? Or the era of Jim Crow? Or of the railroad barons?
Our second president, John Adams, who was as near to orthodox Christianity as any of the founding fathers, signed his name to the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly stated that America was not a Christian nation. To "pcnot4me": "distributive justice=fancy term for stealing from those who earned it"--Have CEOs who get multi million dollar bonuses while laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and driving their companies into bankruptcy really earned those bonuses.

And "fundamentalist," to equate jubilee justice with laissez faire economics is beyond a stretch. In the year of Jubilee, debts were to be forgiven, ancestral properties to be restored.
Isaiah 5:8: "Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field."

by: pcnot4me

01-08-2010 @ 7:41pm

"distributive justice" = fancy term for stealing from those who earned it.

by: fundamentalist

01-08-2010 @ 8:34pm

the Mises Institute pubished an article on economics, the Late Scholastic thought and ethical considerations. It's at http://mises.org/daily/3912. Here are some pertinent excerpts:

"And now, third and finally, let us concentrate on the intimate relationship that exists between ethics and the concept of dynamic efficiency, which I have just presented. Mainstream neoclassical economic theory rests on the idea that information is objective and given (either in certain or probabilistic terms), and that the issues of utility maximization have absolutely no connection with moral considerations.

"If ends, means, and resources are not given but continually created from nothing as a result of the entrepreneurial action of human beings, clearly the fundamental ethical problem is no longer how to justly distribute what already exists, but instead, how to promote entrepreneurial creativity and coordination.

"Consequently, in the field of social ethics, we arrive at the fundamental conclusion that the idea of human beings as creative and coordinating actors implies the axiomatic acceptance of the principle that every human being has a natural right to appropriate all results of his entrepreneurial creativity. That is, the private appropriation of the fruits of entrepreneurial creation and discovery is a tenet of natural law.

"To coerce free human action to any degree by impairing people's right to own what they entrepreneurially create is not only dynamically inefficient, since it obstructs their creativity and coordinating capacity; it is also fundamentally immoral, since such coercion prevents human beings from developing that which is by nature most essential in them, i.e., their innate ability to create and conceive new ends and means to attempt to achieve their own goals and objectives. Precisely for these reasons, not only socialism and interventionism but also any form of statism are not only dynamically inefficient but also ethically unjust and immoral.

It must be taken into account that the force of entrepreneurial creativity also manifests itself in the desire to help poor people and in the systematic search for situations in which others are in need, in order to help them. In fact, coercive state intervention, through the typical mechanisms of the so-called "welfare state" neutralizes and to a great extent blocks the entrepreneurial effort to help one's neighbors (both close and distant) who are experiencing difficulties. And this is an idea that, for instance, Pope John Paul II stressed in Section 49 of his 1991 Encyclical, Centesimus Annus.

Furthermore, according to our analysis, nothing is more (dynamically) efficient than justice (understood in its proper sense). If we think of the market as a dynamic process, then dynamic efficiency, understood as coordination and creativity, results from the behavior of human beings who follow certain moral laws (mainly regarding the respect for life, private property, and the fulfillment of contracts.)

by: hammerud

01-12-2010 @ 8:51pm

I think I said something about the current warped view of "separation
of church and state." We made a serious mistake when removed the
Bible and prayer from the classroom, stemming from an orientation to
Judeo-Christian roots. Retaining that orientation fosters a culture
that at least has some sense of right and wrong, and it does not
prohibit freedom of religion. We have a culture today that doesn't
know up from down. God's Word needs to be spread in every venue of
our culture, including government. The fact that all sorts of
scripture is on the monuments in Washington DC, the Ten Commandments
are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court, etc shows that what
today is considered politically correct was not the view in the past.
We need to get back to God and His Word, or we are done.
Unfortunately I think, apart from a great movement of the Holy Spirit,
we may be done.

by: ford49

01-09-2010 @ 3:55am

I would be thankful for the opportunity to "earn" it and remember that the scripture also tells us to those who have much, much is required.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 10:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: ckgmail

01-13-2010 @ 12:04pm

If God's word (I take it you mean the Christian Bible) is spread in every
venue of our culture, including government, how does that NOT violate
freedom of religion? How does it not violate the establishment clause of the
first amendment? Should God's word be spread by government in Utah, where it
would almost certainly include the Book of Mormon? I continue to stand firm
for separation of church and state, for a free church in a free state. I
don't want the United States congress, the Texas legislature, the Swisher
County Commissioners Court, or the Tulia city council telling me how, where,
when, or whether I should worship.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 4:05pm

You mean the minimum wage workers who generate $10 of value for every $1 they are paid? I agree, let's stop stealing the wealth from those who create it.

by: pcnot4me

01-08-2010 @ 7:41pm

"distributive justice" = fancy term for stealing from those who earned it.

by: fundamentalist

01-08-2010 @ 8:34pm

the Mises Institute pubished an article on economics, the Late Scholastic thought and ethical considerations. It's at http://mises.org/daily/3912. Here are some pertinent excerpts:

"And now, third and finally, let us concentrate on the intimate relationship that exists between ethics and the concept of dynamic efficiency, which I have just presented. Mainstream neoclassical economic theory rests on the idea that information is objective and given (either in certain or probabilistic terms), and that the issues of utility maximization have absolutely no connection with moral considerations.

"If ends, means, and resources are not given but continually created from nothing as a result of the entrepreneurial action of human beings, clearly the fundamental ethical problem is no longer how to justly distribute what already exists, but instead, how to promote entrepreneurial creativity and coordination.

"Consequently, in the field of social ethics, we arrive at the fundamental conclusion that the idea of human beings as creative and coordinating actors implies the axiomatic acceptance of the principle that every human being has a natural right to appropriate all results of his entrepreneurial creativity. That is, the private appropriation of the fruits of entrepreneurial creation and discovery is a tenet of natural law.

"To coerce free human action to any degree by impairing people's right to own what they entrepreneurially create is not only dynamically inefficient, since it obstructs their creativity and coordinating capacity; it is also fundamentally immoral, since such coercion prevents human beings from developing that which is by nature most essential in them, i.e., their innate ability to create and conceive new ends and means to attempt to achieve their own goals and objectives. Precisely for these reasons, not only socialism and interventionism but also any form of statism are not only dynamically inefficient but also ethically unjust and immoral.

It must be taken into account that the force of entrepreneurial creativity also manifests itself in the desire to help poor people and in the systematic search for situations in which others are in need, in order to help them. In fact, coercive state intervention, through the typical mechanisms of the so-called "welfare state" neutralizes and to a great extent blocks the entrepreneurial effort to help one's neighbors (both close and distant) who are experiencing difficulties. And this is an idea that, for instance, Pope John Paul II stressed in Section 49 of his 1991 Encyclical, Centesimus Annus.

Furthermore, according to our analysis, nothing is more (dynamically) efficient than justice (understood in its proper sense). If we think of the market as a dynamic process, then dynamic efficiency, understood as coordination and creativity, results from the behavior of human beings who follow certain moral laws (mainly regarding the respect for life, private property, and the fulfillment of contracts.)

by: hammerud

01-12-2010 @ 8:51pm

I think I said something about the current warped view of "separation
of church and state." We made a serious mistake when removed the
Bible and prayer from the classroom, stemming from an orientation to
Judeo-Christian roots. Retaining that orientation fosters a culture
that at least has some sense of right and wrong, and it does not
prohibit freedom of religion. We have a culture today that doesn't
know up from down. God's Word needs to be spread in every venue of
our culture, including government. The fact that all sorts of
scripture is on the monuments in Washington DC, the Ten Commandments
are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court, etc shows that what
today is considered politically correct was not the view in the past.
We need to get back to God and His Word, or we are done.
Unfortunately I think, apart from a great movement of the Holy Spirit,
we may be done.

by: ford49

01-09-2010 @ 3:55am

I would be thankful for the opportunity to "earn" it and remember that the scripture also tells us to those who have much, much is required.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 8:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 4:05pm

You mean the minimum wage workers who generate $10 of value for every $1 they are paid? I agree, let's stop stealing the wealth from those who create it.

by: ckgmail

01-13-2010 @ 12:04pm

If God's word (I take it you mean the Christian Bible) is spread in every
venue of our culture, including government, how does that NOT violate
freedom of religion? How does it not violate the establishment clause of the
first amendment? Should God's word be spread by government in Utah, where it
would almost certainly include the Book of Mormon? I continue to stand firm
for separation of church and state, for a free church in a free state. I
don't want the United States congress, the Texas legislature, the Swisher
County Commissioners Court, or the Tulia city council telling me how, where,
when, or whether I should worship.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 8:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 6:13pm

You ask "what sector of society is responsible for resetting the moral compass of our country?" The answer is the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth; but as a culture we have turned our back on the Word of God and become unwise, as it states, "Lo, they have rejected the Word of God and what wisdom is in them." For too many years now, in many areas, we have embraced calling evil good and good evil. We have turned our backs on God. So what should be our focus? Scripture states that God uses His Word to "accomplish that which He pleases and prosper in the thing whereto He sent it." Getting the Word of God out needs to be the focus. Doing a lot of things without getting out the Word does not change hearts. As individual Christians, we need to ask God to fill us with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and walk through each day with Him. We need to personally grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, which requires daily feeding on the Word of God, which, as it is written, "effectually worketh also in you that believe." Being filled with God and His Word is the only way we can individually shine as lights in darkness in this fallen, evil world. So, as it states in Colossians, "let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom..." Get to know it.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 7:07pm

I agree with that. Stealing is stealing. The government NEVER should have gotten into the social welfare business. The result is the mess we have right now with 49 out of 50 states in the red, and a Federal Government in the red, printing money backed by nothing. As a Christian, I personally am to care for the poor. What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, leave social welfare to the people; but we, as a culture, have decided, I guess (at least according to our President), that "this is not a Christian country." Well, that is not too smart, whether you personally are a Christian or not.

by: Charles Kiker

06-07-2011 @ 1:37pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Charles

Charles Kiker

Interim Minister at American Baptist Churches

Amarillo, Texas Area

Confirm that you know Charles Kiker

https://www.linkedin.com/e/-m3...

--

(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation

by: fundamentalist

01-11-2010 @ 1:48pm

"There is a connection between an unregulated economy and unregulated calendar - the results are hurt individuals, families, communities, and churches."

This is a statement of fact claming that an unregulated economy caused the recent crisis. But Charles Kindleberger (Manias, Panics and Crashes) and Kenneth Rogoff (This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) demonstrate that to be false, as does Thomas Woods' "Meltdown".

1. What is good work from a biblical point of view?

All work that doesn't harm others is good work.

2. What would jubilee economics look like in our society?

It would look like a laissez-faire, unregulated economy. Here's why: jubilee was a technique to address a particular problem-poverty. We should be able to strip the principle (help the poor) from the technique. Economics and history have proven that the best technique for helping the poor is a free market. Laissez-fair free markets lifted Europe from the Malthusian cycles of famine and mass death and they have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of starvation poverty in the past 30 years. Nothing else in history has accomplished so much for the poor. As for the principle of relieving debtors of their debts, bankruptcy courts do an excellent job of that.
We should not limit ourselves to just the Biblical techniques of poverty reduction any more than we limit ourselves to Biblical medical practices. As much has been learned about medicine since Jesus's day, so much has been learned about reducing poverty in the field of economics over the past 300 years.

3. Is there a need for distributive justice? Does the Bible advocate for this type of justice?

Absolutely! The need continues to exist and the Bible advocates it. However, the Bible does not criminalize the failure. The Bible requires individuals to give of their property willingly to help the poor. That is the message of Acts. But the act must be a willing one, not out of compulsion. As a result, the state should not make distributive justice coercive through taxation, and the failure to pay taxes for distributive justice a criminal offense. The Pharisees got that wrong with the Sabbath and food laws. God never intended for the state to make failure to obey them a criminal offense as the Pharisees did. Doing so caused the Pharisees to want to murder Jesus for violating them.

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:01pm

That cannot happen if we play "cafeteria Christianity," which is often what happens when Christians try to "change" others but refuse to bow in humility to Him and admit that they too miss things. Jesus said to his disciples in the "Great Commission," "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." And that includes His teaching on economics, justice and other things that might be considered "left-wing."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:07pm

What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, and leave social welfare to the people ...

Government got into the "social welfare" business when, and only when, the problem got so big during the Depression that no private entity could do so effectively. Ironically, when the church could have been a prophetic voice warning about a possible stock market crash, do you remember what it was doing in the 1920s? Debating -- and ultimately splitting -- over theology! Maybe we Christians ought to look at the whole of the Scriptures and not just focus on "my status and my stuff."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 4:03pm

This says nothing about systemic injustice, specifically (but not limited to) a legal system based on color. Let's keep in mind also that the exploitation of such was a reality in this country and that it has always taken state efforts to get rid of it.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 10:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 6:13pm

You ask "what sector of society is responsible for resetting the moral compass of our country?" The answer is the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth; but as a culture we have turned our back on the Word of God and become unwise, as it states, "Lo, they have rejected the Word of God and what wisdom is in them." For too many years now, in many areas, we have embraced calling evil good and good evil. We have turned our backs on God. So what should be our focus? Scripture states that God uses His Word to "accomplish that which He pleases and prosper in the thing whereto He sent it." Getting the Word of God out needs to be the focus. Doing a lot of things without getting out the Word does not change hearts. As individual Christians, we need to ask God to fill us with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and walk through each day with Him. We need to personally grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, which requires daily feeding on the Word of God, which, as it is written, "effectually worketh also in you that believe." Being filled with God and His Word is the only way we can individually shine as lights in darkness in this fallen, evil world. So, as it states in Colossians, "let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom..." Get to know it.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 7:07pm

I agree with that. Stealing is stealing. The government NEVER should have gotten into the social welfare business. The result is the mess we have right now with 49 out of 50 states in the red, and a Federal Government in the red, printing money backed by nothing. As a Christian, I personally am to care for the poor. What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, leave social welfare to the people; but we, as a culture, have decided, I guess (at least according to our President), that "this is not a Christian country." Well, that is not too smart, whether you personally are a Christian or not.

by: fundamentalist

01-11-2010 @ 1:48pm

"There is a connection between an unregulated economy and unregulated calendar - the results are hurt individuals, families, communities, and churches."

This is a statement of fact claming that an unregulated economy caused the recent crisis. But Charles Kindleberger (Manias, Panics and Crashes) and Kenneth Rogoff (This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) demonstrate that to be false, as does Thomas Woods' "Meltdown".

1. What is good work from a biblical point of view?

All work that doesn't harm others is good work.

2. What would jubilee economics look like in our society?

It would look like a laissez-faire, unregulated economy. Here's why: jubilee was a technique to address a particular problem-poverty. We should be able to strip the principle (help the poor) from the technique. Economics and history have proven that the best technique for helping the poor is a free market. Laissez-fair free markets lifted Europe from the Malthusian cycles of famine and mass death and they have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of starvation poverty in the past 30 years. Nothing else in history has accomplished so much for the poor. As for the principle of relieving debtors of their debts, bankruptcy courts do an excellent job of that.
We should not limit ourselves to just the Biblical techniques of poverty reduction any more than we limit ourselves to Biblical medical practices. As much has been learned about medicine since Jesus's day, so much has been learned about reducing poverty in the field of economics over the past 300 years.

3. Is there a need for distributive justice? Does the Bible advocate for this type of justice?

Absolutely! The need continues to exist and the Bible advocates it. However, the Bible does not criminalize the failure. The Bible requires individuals to give of their property willingly to help the poor. That is the message of Acts. But the act must be a willing one, not out of compulsion. As a result, the state should not make distributive justice coercive through taxation, and the failure to pay taxes for distributive justice a criminal offense. The Pharisees got that wrong with the Sabbath and food laws. God never intended for the state to make failure to obey them a criminal offense as the Pharisees did. Doing so caused the Pharisees to want to murder Jesus for violating them.

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:01pm

That cannot happen if we play "cafeteria Christianity," which is often what happens when Christians try to "change" others but refuse to bow in humility to Him and admit that they too miss things. Jesus said to his disciples in the "Great Commission," "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." And that includes His teaching on economics, justice and other things that might be considered "left-wing."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:07pm

What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, and leave social welfare to the people ...

Government got into the "social welfare" business when, and only when, the problem got so big during the Depression that no private entity could do so effectively. Ironically, when the church could have been a prophetic voice warning about a possible stock market crash, do you remember what it was doing in the 1920s? Debating -- and ultimately splitting -- over theology! Maybe we Christians ought to look at the whole of the Scriptures and not just focus on "my status and my stuff."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 4:03pm

This says nothing about systemic injustice, specifically (but not limited to) a legal system based on color. Let's keep in mind also that the exploitation of such was a reality in this country and that it has always taken state efforts to get rid of it.

by: ckgmail

01-12-2010 @ 2:07pm

Well Hammerud, when were we a Christian nation? I don't need an exact date, just an era? Was it the colonial era, even before we were a nation, when the colonists began to steal the lands of the natives. Or maybe it was the slavery era? Or the era of Jim Crow? Or of the railroad barons?
Our second president, John Adams, who was as near to orthodox Christianity as any of the founding fathers, signed his name to the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly stated that America was not a Christian nation. To "pcnot4me": "distributive justice=fancy term for stealing from those who earned it"--Have CEOs who get multi million dollar bonuses while laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and driving their companies into bankruptcy really earned those bonuses.

And "fundamentalist," to equate jubilee justice with laissez faire economics is beyond a stretch. In the year of Jubilee, debts were to be forgiven, ancestral properties to be restored.
Isaiah 5:8: "Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field."

by: Charles Kiker

06-07-2011 @ 1:37pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Charles

Charles Kiker

Interim Minister at American Baptist Churches

Amarillo, Texas Area

Confirm that you know Charles Kiker

https://www.linkedin.com/e/-m3...

--

(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: pcnot4me

01-08-2010 @ 7:41pm

"distributive justice" = fancy term for stealing from those who earned it.

by: pcnot4me

01-08-2010 @ 7:41pm

"distributive justice" = fancy term for stealing from those who earned it.

by: fundamentalist

01-08-2010 @ 8:34pm

the Mises Institute pubished an article on economics, the Late Scholastic thought and ethical considerations. It's at http://mises.org/daily/3912. Here are some pertinent excerpts:

"And now, third and finally, let us concentrate on the intimate relationship that exists between ethics and the concept of dynamic efficiency, which I have just presented. Mainstream neoclassical economic theory rests on the idea that information is objective and given (either in certain or probabilistic terms), and that the issues of utility maximization have absolutely no connection with moral considerations.

"If ends, means, and resources are not given but continually created from nothing as a result of the entrepreneurial action of human beings, clearly the fundamental ethical problem is no longer how to justly distribute what already exists, but instead, how to promote entrepreneurial creativity and coordination.

"Consequently, in the field of social ethics, we arrive at the fundamental conclusion that the idea of human beings as creative and coordinating actors implies the axiomatic acceptance of the principle that every human being has a natural right to appropriate all results of his entrepreneurial creativity. That is, the private appropriation of the fruits of entrepreneurial creation and discovery is a tenet of natural law.

"To coerce free human action to any degree by impairing people's right to own what they entrepreneurially create is not only dynamically inefficient, since it obstructs their creativity and coordinating capacity; it is also fundamentally immoral, since such coercion prevents human beings from developing that which is by nature most essential in them, i.e., their innate ability to create and conceive new ends and means to attempt to achieve their own goals and objectives. Precisely for these reasons, not only socialism and interventionism but also any form of statism are not only dynamically inefficient but also ethically unjust and immoral.

It must be taken into account that the force of entrepreneurial creativity also manifests itself in the desire to help poor people and in the systematic search for situations in which others are in need, in order to help them. In fact, coercive state intervention, through the typical mechanisms of the so-called "welfare state" neutralizes and to a great extent blocks the entrepreneurial effort to help one's neighbors (both close and distant) who are experiencing difficulties. And this is an idea that, for instance, Pope John Paul II stressed in Section 49 of his 1991 Encyclical, Centesimus Annus.

Furthermore, according to our analysis, nothing is more (dynamically) efficient than justice (understood in its proper sense). If we think of the market as a dynamic process, then dynamic efficiency, understood as coordination and creativity, results from the behavior of human beings who follow certain moral laws (mainly regarding the respect for life, private property, and the fulfillment of contracts.)

by: fundamentalist

01-08-2010 @ 8:34pm

the Mises Institute pubished an article on economics, the Late Scholastic thought and ethical considerations. It's at http://mises.org/daily/3912. Here are some pertinent excerpts:

"And now, third and finally, let us concentrate on the intimate relationship that exists between ethics and the concept of dynamic efficiency, which I have just presented. Mainstream neoclassical economic theory rests on the idea that information is objective and given (either in certain or probabilistic terms), and that the issues of utility maximization have absolutely no connection with moral considerations.

"If ends, means, and resources are not given but continually created from nothing as a result of the entrepreneurial action of human beings, clearly the fundamental ethical problem is no longer how to justly distribute what already exists, but instead, how to promote entrepreneurial creativity and coordination.

"Consequently, in the field of social ethics, we arrive at the fundamental conclusion that the idea of human beings as creative and coordinating actors implies the axiomatic acceptance of the principle that every human being has a natural right to appropriate all results of his entrepreneurial creativity. That is, the private appropriation of the fruits of entrepreneurial creation and discovery is a tenet of natural law.

"To coerce free human action to any degree by impairing people's right to own what they entrepreneurially create is not only dynamically inefficient, since it obstructs their creativity and coordinating capacity; it is also fundamentally immoral, since such coercion prevents human beings from developing that which is by nature most essential in them, i.e., their innate ability to create and conceive new ends and means to attempt to achieve their own goals and objectives. Precisely for these reasons, not only socialism and interventionism but also any form of statism are not only dynamically inefficient but also ethically unjust and immoral.

It must be taken into account that the force of entrepreneurial creativity also manifests itself in the desire to help poor people and in the systematic search for situations in which others are in need, in order to help them. In fact, coercive state intervention, through the typical mechanisms of the so-called "welfare state" neutralizes and to a great extent blocks the entrepreneurial effort to help one's neighbors (both close and distant) who are experiencing difficulties. And this is an idea that, for instance, Pope John Paul II stressed in Section 49 of his 1991 Encyclical, Centesimus Annus.

Furthermore, according to our analysis, nothing is more (dynamically) efficient than justice (understood in its proper sense). If we think of the market as a dynamic process, then dynamic efficiency, understood as coordination and creativity, results from the behavior of human beings who follow certain moral laws (mainly regarding the respect for life, private property, and the fulfillment of contracts.)

by: ford49

01-09-2010 @ 3:55am

I would be thankful for the opportunity to "earn" it and remember that the scripture also tells us to those who have much, much is required.

by: ford49

01-09-2010 @ 3:55am

I would be thankful for the opportunity to "earn" it and remember that the scripture also tells us to those who have much, much is required.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 4:05pm

You mean the minimum wage workers who generate $10 of value for every $1 they are paid? I agree, let's stop stealing the wealth from those who create it.

by: facebook-1363553490

01-09-2010 @ 4:05pm

You mean the minimum wage workers who generate $10 of value for every $1 they are paid? I agree, let's stop stealing the wealth from those who create it.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 6:13pm

You ask "what sector of society is responsible for resetting the moral compass of our country?" The answer is the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth; but as a culture we have turned our back on the Word of God and become unwise, as it states, "Lo, they have rejected the Word of God and what wisdom is in them." For too many years now, in many areas, we have embraced calling evil good and good evil. We have turned our backs on God. So what should be our focus? Scripture states that God uses His Word to "accomplish that which He pleases and prosper in the thing whereto He sent it." Getting the Word of God out needs to be the focus. Doing a lot of things without getting out the Word does not change hearts. As individual Christians, we need to ask God to fill us with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and walk through each day with Him. We need to personally grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, which requires daily feeding on the Word of God, which, as it is written, "effectually worketh also in you that believe." Being filled with God and His Word is the only way we can individually shine as lights in darkness in this fallen, evil world. So, as it states in Colossians, "let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom..." Get to know it.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 6:13pm

You ask "what sector of society is responsible for resetting the moral compass of our country?" The answer is the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth; but as a culture we have turned our back on the Word of God and become unwise, as it states, "Lo, they have rejected the Word of God and what wisdom is in them." For too many years now, in many areas, we have embraced calling evil good and good evil. We have turned our backs on God. So what should be our focus? Scripture states that God uses His Word to "accomplish that which He pleases and prosper in the thing whereto He sent it." Getting the Word of God out needs to be the focus. Doing a lot of things without getting out the Word does not change hearts. As individual Christians, we need to ask God to fill us with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and walk through each day with Him. We need to personally grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, which requires daily feeding on the Word of God, which, as it is written, "effectually worketh also in you that believe." Being filled with God and His Word is the only way we can individually shine as lights in darkness in this fallen, evil world. So, as it states in Colossians, "let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom..." Get to know it.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 7:07pm

I agree with that. Stealing is stealing. The government NEVER should have gotten into the social welfare business. The result is the mess we have right now with 49 out of 50 states in the red, and a Federal Government in the red, printing money backed by nothing. As a Christian, I personally am to care for the poor. What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, leave social welfare to the people; but we, as a culture, have decided, I guess (at least according to our President), that "this is not a Christian country." Well, that is not too smart, whether you personally are a Christian or not.

by: hammerud

01-10-2010 @ 7:07pm

I agree with that. Stealing is stealing. The government NEVER should have gotten into the social welfare business. The result is the mess we have right now with 49 out of 50 states in the red, and a Federal Government in the red, printing money backed by nothing. As a Christian, I personally am to care for the poor. What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, leave social welfare to the people; but we, as a culture, have decided, I guess (at least according to our President), that "this is not a Christian country." Well, that is not too smart, whether you personally are a Christian or not.

by: fundamentalist

01-11-2010 @ 1:48pm

"There is a connection between an unregulated economy and unregulated calendar - the results are hurt individuals, families, communities, and churches."

This is a statement of fact claming that an unregulated economy caused the recent crisis. But Charles Kindleberger (Manias, Panics and Crashes) and Kenneth Rogoff (This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) demonstrate that to be false, as does Thomas Woods' "Meltdown".

1. What is good work from a biblical point of view?

All work that doesn't harm others is good work.

2. What would jubilee economics look like in our society?

It would look like a laissez-faire, unregulated economy. Here's why: jubilee was a technique to address a particular problem-poverty. We should be able to strip the principle (help the poor) from the technique. Economics and history have proven that the best technique for helping the poor is a free market. Laissez-fair free markets lifted Europe from the Malthusian cycles of famine and mass death and they have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of starvation poverty in the past 30 years. Nothing else in history has accomplished so much for the poor. As for the principle of relieving debtors of their debts, bankruptcy courts do an excellent job of that.
We should not limit ourselves to just the Biblical techniques of poverty reduction any more than we limit ourselves to Biblical medical practices. As much has been learned about medicine since Jesus's day, so much has been learned about reducing poverty in the field of economics over the past 300 years.

3. Is there a need for distributive justice? Does the Bible advocate for this type of justice?

Absolutely! The need continues to exist and the Bible advocates it. However, the Bible does not criminalize the failure. The Bible requires individuals to give of their property willingly to help the poor. That is the message of Acts. But the act must be a willing one, not out of compulsion. As a result, the state should not make distributive justice coercive through taxation, and the failure to pay taxes for distributive justice a criminal offense. The Pharisees got that wrong with the Sabbath and food laws. God never intended for the state to make failure to obey them a criminal offense as the Pharisees did. Doing so caused the Pharisees to want to murder Jesus for violating them.

by: fundamentalist

01-11-2010 @ 1:48pm

"There is a connection between an unregulated economy and unregulated calendar - the results are hurt individuals, families, communities, and churches."

This is a statement of fact claming that an unregulated economy caused the recent crisis. But Charles Kindleberger (Manias, Panics and Crashes) and Kenneth Rogoff (This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly) demonstrate that to be false, as does Thomas Woods' "Meltdown".

1. What is good work from a biblical point of view?

All work that doesn't harm others is good work.

2. What would jubilee economics look like in our society?

It would look like a laissez-faire, unregulated economy. Here's why: jubilee was a technique to address a particular problem-poverty. We should be able to strip the principle (help the poor) from the technique. Economics and history have proven that the best technique for helping the poor is a free market. Laissez-fair free markets lifted Europe from the Malthusian cycles of famine and mass death and they have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese out of starvation poverty in the past 30 years. Nothing else in history has accomplished so much for the poor. As for the principle of relieving debtors of their debts, bankruptcy courts do an excellent job of that.
We should not limit ourselves to just the Biblical techniques of poverty reduction any more than we limit ourselves to Biblical medical practices. As much has been learned about medicine since Jesus's day, so much has been learned about reducing poverty in the field of economics over the past 300 years.

3. Is there a need for distributive justice? Does the Bible advocate for this type of justice?

Absolutely! The need continues to exist and the Bible advocates it. However, the Bible does not criminalize the failure. The Bible requires individuals to give of their property willingly to help the poor. That is the message of Acts. But the act must be a willing one, not out of compulsion. As a result, the state should not make distributive justice coercive through taxation, and the failure to pay taxes for distributive justice a criminal offense. The Pharisees got that wrong with the Sabbath and food laws. God never intended for the state to make failure to obey them a criminal offense as the Pharisees did. Doing so caused the Pharisees to want to murder Jesus for violating them.

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:01pm

That cannot happen if we play "cafeteria Christianity," which is often what happens when Christians try to "change" others but refuse to bow in humility to Him and admit that they too miss things. Jesus said to his disciples in the "Great Commission," "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." And that includes His teaching on economics, justice and other things that might be considered "left-wing."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:01pm

That cannot happen if we play "cafeteria Christianity," which is often what happens when Christians try to "change" others but refuse to bow in humility to Him and admit that they too miss things. Jesus said to his disciples in the "Great Commission," "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." And that includes His teaching on economics, justice and other things that might be considered "left-wing."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:07pm

What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, and leave social welfare to the people ...

Government got into the "social welfare" business when, and only when, the problem got so big during the Depression that no private entity could do so effectively. Ironically, when the church could have been a prophetic voice warning about a possible stock market crash, do you remember what it was doing in the 1920s? Debating -- and ultimately splitting -- over theology! Maybe we Christians ought to look at the whole of the Scriptures and not just focus on "my status and my stuff."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 2:07pm

What the government needs to do is throw out this obviously warped view of "separation of church and state," and encourage Christian values, and leave social welfare to the people ...

Government got into the "social welfare" business when, and only when, the problem got so big during the Depression that no private entity could do so effectively. Ironically, when the church could have been a prophetic voice warning about a possible stock market crash, do you remember what it was doing in the 1920s? Debating -- and ultimately splitting -- over theology! Maybe we Christians ought to look at the whole of the Scriptures and not just focus on "my status and my stuff."

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 4:03pm

This says nothing about systemic injustice, specifically (but not limited to) a legal system based on color. Let's keep in mind also that the exploitation of such was a reality in this country and that it has always taken state efforts to get rid of it.

by: BlueDeacon

01-11-2010 @ 4:03pm

This says nothing about systemic injustice, specifically (but not limited to) a legal system based on color. Let's keep in mind also that the exploitation of such was a reality in this country and that it has always taken state efforts to get rid of it.

by: ckgmail

01-12-2010 @ 2:07pm

Well Hammerud, when were we a Christian nation? I don't need an exact date, just an era? Was it the colonial era, even before we were a nation, when the colonists began to steal the lands of the natives. Or maybe it was the slavery era? Or the era of Jim Crow? Or of the railroad barons?
Our second president, John Adams, who was as near to orthodox Christianity as any of the founding fathers, signed his name to the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly stated that America was not a Christian nation. To "pcnot4me": "distributive justice=fancy term for stealing from those who earned it"--Have CEOs who get multi million dollar bonuses while laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and driving their companies into bankruptcy really earned those bonuses.

And "fundamentalist," to equate jubilee justice with laissez faire economics is beyond a stretch. In the year of Jubilee, debts were to be forgiven, ancestral properties to be restored.
Isaiah 5:8: "Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field."

by: ckgmail

01-12-2010 @ 2:07pm

Well Hammerud, when were we a Christian nation? I don't need an exact date, just an era? Was it the colonial era, even before we were a nation, when the colonists began to steal the lands of the natives. Or maybe it was the slavery era? Or the era of Jim Crow? Or of the railroad barons?
Our second president, John Adams, who was as near to orthodox Christianity as any of the founding fathers, signed his name to the Treaty of Tripoli which explicitly stated that America was not a Christian nation. To "pcnot4me": "distributive justice=fancy term for stealing from those who earned it"--Have CEOs who get multi million dollar bonuses while laying off hundreds of thousands of workers and driving their companies into bankruptcy really earned those bonuses.

And "fundamentalist," to equate jubilee justice with laissez faire economics is beyond a stretch. In the year of Jubilee, debts were to be forgiven, ancestral properties to be restored.
Isaiah 5:8: "Woe to those who join house to house, who add field to field."

by: hammerud

01-12-2010 @ 8:51pm

I think I said something about the current warped view of "separation
of church and state." We made a serious mistake when removed the
Bible and prayer from the classroom, stemming from an orientation to
Judeo-Christian roots. Retaining that orientation fosters a culture
that at least has some sense of right and wrong, and it does not
prohibit freedom of religion. We have a culture today that doesn't
know up from down. God's Word needs to be spread in every venue of
our culture, including government. The fact that all sorts of
scripture is on the monuments in Washington DC, the Ten Commandments
are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court, etc shows that what
today is considered politically correct was not the view in the past.
We need to get back to God and His Word, or we are done.
Unfortunately I think, apart from a great movement of the Holy Spirit,
we may be done.

by: hammerud

01-12-2010 @ 8:51pm

I think I said something about the current warped view of "separation
of church and state." We made a serious mistake when removed the
Bible and prayer from the classroom, stemming from an orientation to
Judeo-Christian roots. Retaining that orientation fosters a culture
that at least has some sense of right and wrong, and it does not
prohibit freedom of religion. We have a culture today that doesn't
know up from down. God's Word needs to be spread in every venue of
our culture, including government. The fact that all sorts of
scripture is on the monuments in Washington DC, the Ten Commandments
are prominently displayed in the Supreme Court, etc shows that what
today is considered politically correct was not the view in the past.
We need to get back to God and His Word, or we are done.
Unfortunately I think, apart from a great movement of the Holy Spirit,
we may be done.

by: ckgmail

01-13-2010 @ 12:04pm

If God's word (I take it you mean the Christian Bible) is spread in every
venue of our culture, including government, how does that NOT violate
freedom of religion? How does it not violate the establishment clause of the
first amendment? Should God's word be spread by government in Utah, where it
would almost certainly include the Book of Mormon? I continue to stand firm
for separation of church and state, for a free church in a free state. I
don't want the United States congress, the Texas legislature, the Swisher
County Commissioners Court, or the Tulia city council telling me how, where,
when, or whether I should worship.

by: ckgmail

01-13-2010 @ 12:04pm

If God's word (I take it you mean the Christian Bible) is spread in every
venue of our culture, including government, how does that NOT violate
freedom of religion? How does it not violate the establishment clause of the
first amendment? Should God's word be spread by government in Utah, where it
would almost certainly include the Book of Mormon? I continue to stand firm
for separation of church and state, for a free church in a free state. I
don't want the United States congress, the Texas legislature, the Swisher
County Commissioners Court, or the Tulia city council telling me how, where,
when, or whether I should worship.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 8:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 8:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 10:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: hammerud

01-13-2010 @ 10:03pm

The church isn't free if it is restricted. We need freedom of
religion, not freedom from religion as Ronald Reagan pointed out.
Mormonism is a cult, but I have no problem with Mormon beliefs being
expressed in a free market place of ideas. I have a problem with
government restricting freedom of religion.

by: Charles Kiker

06-07-2011 @ 1:37pm

LinkedIn

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I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Charles

Charles Kiker

Interim Minister at American Baptist Churches

Amarillo, Texas Area

Confirm that you know Charles Kiker

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by: Charles Kiker

06-07-2011 @ 1:37pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Charles

Charles Kiker

Interim Minister at American Baptist Churches

Amarillo, Texas Area

Confirm that you know Charles Kiker

https://www.linkedin.com/e/-m3...

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(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation