Get E-Mail Updates

More Haitian History and Perspective on Pat Robertson and the 'Pact with the Devil'

Like many of you, my first reaction when hearing Pat Robertson's assertion that Haiti had been cursed for making a "pact with the devil" was, well, not appropriate to write on a Christian blog. But once I got over the shock of his blaming the victims, I'll be honest -- my next impulse was curiosity: What tattered shred of historical truth could he possibly be twisting? My colleague Elizabeth Palmberg has already provided some excellent historical perspective, but at the risk of lending any credence whatsoever to Robertson's claims and perpetuating a distraction from what should be our main concern: RESPONDING TO THE OVERWHELMING NEED OF SURVIVING HAITIANS (click here for for Sojourners' readers' recommended ways to help), I did some additional research, and here's what I found.

CBN released a statement explaining -- not apologizing for -- Robertson, saying, "His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French." "Widely discussed" is an understatement. Here's a passage from a Haitian history site:

In many senses the revolution was already under way by August 1791, but that month's vodou ceremony has become a convenient landmark to date the "official" start of the uprising ... The details of the Bois Caïman ceremony have been retold and embellished over the years into a dramatic tale of epic proportions. The actual story of what happened that August may not be as dramatic as the popular retelling, yet it is as charged with the electricity of a historic turning point.

As with much history, the facts of this ceremony are disputed and shrouded in legend. The first and only contemporary account of it was written by a French doctor who was the medical attendant when Haitian slaves were being tortured for their role in the rebellion. But even the legendary version reveals some compelling context. Here is one version of the prayer that Haitian revolutionary Boukman Dutty is said to have uttered at the ceremony:

The god who created the sun which gives us light, who rouses the waves and rules the storm, though hidden in the clouds, he watches us. He sees all that the white man does. The god of the white man inspires him with crime, but our god calls upon us to do good works. Our god who is good to us orders us to revenge our wrongs. He will direct our arms and aid us. Throw away the symbol of the god of the whites who has so often caused us to weep, and listen to the voice of liberty, which speaks in the hearts of us all.

Does that sound like a pact with Satan? Are there not echoes of the psalms? Of course for Robertson, like many evangelical Christians, Vodou = Satanism (or for that matter, any non-Christian religious belief = Satanism). But if that is your belief, can you at least hold it in tension with what the Bible says about God's concern for the poor and oppressed, and "Christian" colonialism's legacy of slavery, terror, violence, and torture? Do you find it easier to identify with Boukman's legendary prayer, or with a system of colonial slavery that twisted the witness of Christ to the point that African slaves clung to their traditional beliefs in defense against the whites' version of god? Who are God's children: Those who take God's name (in vain?) or those who do justice (Matthew 5, Matthew 7:21-23)?

Two more passages that seem relevant. The first is from author Don Miller, who's written the most helpful thing I've read on this controversy. Do yourself a favor and read his full post, but here's a snippet:

Another truth that gives me a more grounded perspective on Pat Robertson is that he really doesn't represent most conservatives. I come from a politically and religiously conservative family, and many, many of my friends are very conservative, and all of them would be in shock at Robertson's statements. The media would have Robertson represent all Christians, or perhaps all conservatives, but the idea is absurd. It's also important to let people know we think it's absurd. So here is what the Devil is really going to try to get you to do: Hate other people. Those conservatives, those Christians, those whoever

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 9:12pm

LV,

The point I was trying to make was not that being judgmental is a uniquely monotheistic flaw. It isn't, and my own poor attitude at times is evidence of that. Nor are monotheists the only ones who believe in supernatural punishment: Sharon Stone proved that with her asinine statement that the Chinese earthquake might have been Karmic retribution for the Chinese invasion of Tibet.

I also was not saying believers' human flaws have anything to say about whether or not there are gods. Certainly the human flaws in naturalists do not mean that gods *do* exist.

What I *was* saying was that those Christians who are upset at Robertson should consider that he is manifesting an inability to accept accident or coincidence as reality. And that inability is common to most of those who believe in supernatural intervention in human affairs. The fact that Robertson thinks he knows the supernatural causes and purposes behind natural disasters is only an extreme manifestation of a common problem: the inability to accept accident and coincidence.

In another comment on this site, I gave the example of believers' responses to the extended illness that killed my mother recently. It seemed to me that the believers affected by her illness had a harder time than the rest, in no small part because they had to attach a supernatural purpose to her condition. Whether they know that purpose or not, it must be one of three things: sin, weak faith, or it is part of a bigger and incomprehensible plan. Each of those possibilities is, in and of itself, troubling at many levels.

I'm not saying that believers should change their beliefs to avoid unnecessary pain, because facts don't change to suit our convenience or comfort. What I *am* saying is that believers who are inclined to claim that they've had a miracle should be aware of the full implication of that statement.

It is almost a certainty that an American Christian in Haiti will be on the air in the next week saing, in effect, that they survived the earthquake because of divine intervention. As glad as we should all be that all the survivors are still alive, those who claim there was a special reason they were saved (i.e. their faith in Jesus) are also saying that those less fortunate either: sinned, didn't have enough faith, or were not sufficiently important to the plan to be saved from a painful death. You can't have it both ways.

by: skiptomyloumydarling

01-15-2010 @ 3:07pm

Quick question for you cats - did God author the cross? Did he not ordain and cause the greatest "evil" ever to have been imposed upon this earth - the suffering of the innocent deity? I think some of you folks need to take a deep breath, read a little systematic theology, and recognize that God causes many, many things. It is no surprise the author likes Donald Miller's article, because that same article asserts brazenly that we are "not under the old testament but the new." Again, take a deep breath, do a little digging and then post for the world to see. Pat should have done the same, but what is worse - asserting that God may indeed bestow His wrath upon a nation that has turned against Him or asserting that God has no wrath whatsoever?

by: lyonqueen

01-15-2010 @ 10:25pm

Skeptimal:

Well said.

by: mjeinpenn

01-15-2010 @ 11:06pm

Great -- Just what we need. More Christian anti-Semitism. Your theology stinks.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:10pm

1. Europeans in the name of Christ "discover" the New World

2. The indigenous peoples they encounter are labeled "evil savages"

3. Meanwhile, the "good" Christ bearers murder, steal, abuse, torture, enslave, rape, plunder, and bring diseases that decimate the native peoples.

4. Not only that, the preachers along for the ride preach the Gospel of salvation. Some who hear this message think, not without case, "if this is the god you're offering, then count me out."

5. Of course, the Gospel being preached has been compromised by the ones who brought it. However, brave souls with conscience stand up for the "soulless, evil ones"

6. In Haiti in particular, the native peoples are replaced by slaves whose masters eventually become French.

7. These evil slaves rebel and become the first nation in the Western hemisphere to become free.

8. Let me pause in this little story to state, "Yes, I believe in the Devil, the demonic, the forces of evil." Doh! It is obvious in the history of Haiti to this point.

9. Now enter the televangelist, Pat Robertson. Rather than zeroing in on the demonic history initiated by Europeans, he picks on a myth of how the rebels made a "pact with the devil." Pardon me while I become outraged at the particular assignment of the "devil's team" to the rebels.

10. I am a little touchy. But I find Pat Robertson's take on the current earthquake situation to be sick. And I happen to be a cheerleader for Ryan's critique of the evangelist.

11. Now you bring in the "wrath of God." And you know what, I do happen to believe in said "wrath." It is a "wrath" aimed first against the fraud Jesus followers who brought genocide to the western hemisphere. As far as "wrath" against the voodoo doctors, sure. But they are the effect of the demonic cause.

12. This Haitian history certainly has meant hell for millions. I understand there are 2 million children on the loose right now. I will give up any pretense of "being theologically correct". I will gladly bear the title "heretic," if it means blessing for these children. The term "universalist" (can't spell it and I am not sure how it applies to me). However, I do believe that the Lord of Love has a universal love for each and everyone one of those children. If I am errant in this belief, then I will argue and wrestle with my Lord over this. I won't let go until God blesses them.

13. I guess I disagree that Ryan is wide of the mark in critiquing Pat Robertson's remarks.

14. I must say that I myself have been feeling wrath at the 700 Club theology. I will repent supporting the many honorable, effective, faith-based, disaster response organizations. Most of all, I will pray. If you, too, will join me in that, then I will gladly be willing to wrong. I believe in the triumph of Love incarnated in Jesus. May my Lord be embodied in the response we make in these hours, days, years, and generations following this earthquake.

This mode of communication is often lacking, open to misunderstanding. Here's my bottom line. Love invades the most awful, hellish situations, bringing redemption. I believe that Christ is the ultimate, ongoing Person who leads this invasion. May we, too, join in this special ops mission!

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:56pm

Blessings!

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 12:27am

Hi mjeinpenn, can you please elaborate? What did I say that was anti-semitic? As is, Paul was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew & Moses was a Jew. Is John's Gospel anti-semitic? What about Paul?

Please deal with the texts rather than some ad homs.

Was Jesus an anti-semite for calling the Jews children of the Devil?

This site is quite disappointing. All you people do is attack. You are no better than Pat Robertson.

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 12:29am

I'll give you an A+ for an irrelevant response, but whatever makes you feel better.

You sure are hateful. I will pray for you.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 3:45pm

Mr Beiler, your anger is getting the best of you. Did you pay any attention to what Pat was saying or are you just responding to a sound bite? Me thinks you are bordering on false testimony here &, despite humanist contentions to the contrary, liars will be in for greater destruction, am I right? Is that what the Bible teaches? What about the plagues in Egypt? Was Moses blaming the victims? The prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, was Jesus blaming the victims? Sapphire? Herod when he was eaten by worms? Were they victims?

Your "theology" is really humanism and not theology at all.

Also, I think your final word to Jesus is a distortion of the context. He was talking about reading the impending signs of judgment (Luke 12), and that something worse was about to happen to them. Pat was not saying they were worse sinners, so you prooftexting is wrong. Your inability to understand Pat or the Bible is unbecoming of someone who presumes to be a teacher.

As pointed out, I love that you quote Donald Miller and his HERETICAL (and that is what it is) assertion that God's character changed in the New Testament. Seriously, that is heretical. Not only is it heretical, but it just presumes it understands the New Testament, which includes the fact that "the wrath of God is being revealed."

I admonish you guys to repent. The only way you can come up with your theology is by distorting the Bible, which includes cutting off the first half the story. And, negate much of the second half, which includes ALL SCRIPTURE, i.e. the OT, is God-breathed.

You didn't listen to a thing Pat was saying - pray, donate, & help - but latch onto one thing for your own political agenda.

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 12:40am

1. God's people, Israel, were in slavery in Egypt.
2. God ordained their slavery.
3. God ordained that a wicked Pharaoh, who saw himself as god, would rule, so God could display his glory in them.
4. God killed all the firstborn children of Egypt & put plague upon plague on the Egyptian people.
5. God killed the Egyptian army in the sea.
6. God brought his people out of Egypt and into Canaan.
7. God killed off one generation of Israelites due to their rebellion.
8. Up into the promised land, YHWH was pleased to commit genocide, wiping out whole peoples. All to the praise of his glorious grace.

What a fun game.

P.S. You've clearly spent too much time in gov't schools. Dem Indians are much better off with whitey's arrival, but your racism is getting the best of you.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 4:10pm

Worth noting that Pat Robertson's less than enlightening observations about Haiti have been the subject of no less than three posts here.

Meanwhile, Sojo has been pretty much silent on the state of the health care bill since the Senate passed it's version.

Make of that what you will.

LV

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-16-2010 @ 1:17am

Hallelujah for Christian schools!

by: BlueDeacon

01-15-2010 @ 4:14pm

If the Bible is true, then the devil is alive and well and ready to make pacts with anyone who is willing. He is especially interested in those who would deny that he exists.

You assume he has the authority to do so. We need to remember that God is the Ultimate Sovereign and that, as you said, nothing happens unless He permits it; even the devil must answer to Him.

And besides that, too many Christians are unaware of how the devil operates; however, he is known as "the Accuser" and is interested only in destruction, never in reconciliation and healing. That said, there are lot of Christians influence by the devil and don't even realize it.

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 1:39am

Not for all of them, but...

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:03pm

Here's what I make of it. We need to move from a "theology of blame" and "devil's pacts" (which by definition is not to be trusted) to a "theology of love-in-action" for those suffering from "human words can't do justice" to this tragedy.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:09pm

Is it your contention that God's wrath is aimed for those whose theology is different from yours? Funny how it always works out that way.

And I definitely believe in the demonic because there is the ultimate self-serving theology of "get my butt into heaven" becomes more important than the Great Commandment to "love as Christ loved us." The One I struggle to follow actually descended into hell, meeting us at the place of ultimate distance from God to bring us back to God.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-16-2010 @ 1:53am

How 'bout you try fitting the Holocaust into your theological framework?

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:14pm

Yes, I not only believe in the demonic, I've seen it. Individuals, ideologies, nations, humanity is so sinful and self-centered and self-justifying. What is learningbygrace.org doing right now for the earthquake victims in Haiti?

by: jjernig2

01-15-2010 @ 5:23pm

I find it interesting that it wasn't Pat Robertson who personally clarified what he was saying. It looked like CBN was doing damage control while trying not to make Robertson look the fool.

I definitely agree that Satan is alive and active in this world on a daily basis. But, I think most of his actions are more subtile. Could the devil just as well be speaking through Robertson to further attempt to demonize Christianity?

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 2:13am

Hi Jeff, would you elaborate? I believe there was a Holocaust in AD 70, which Jesus prophesied (Mt. 24, Mk 13, Lk 21) & is the fulfillment of Israel's covenant breaking (Dt. 28).

See Paul's comments in 1 Thess. Is he being anti-semitic? The charge is preposterous.

Thanks for the reply.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-16-2010 @ 2:26am

you know, those 6,000,000 Jews that died from 1933-1945. Whose covenant was broken then?

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 5:36pm

Thank God I will be judged by Him and not all these opinionated "believers." This is modern day "Christianity" in America. More like Blue State/Red State than love your neighbor. Why do I keep reading the comments sections? Proverbs 26:11

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 2:35am

Hi Jeff, Nothing has been revealed to me, so I don't know.

As is, the Jews, as a religion, are in constant violation of the covenant God made with Moses - if they believed Moses they would've believed Jesus, as Jesus says - so they are in constant violation of God's covenant - not only the first, but the new as well.

I AM NOT SAYING that is the reason for Hitler's genocide, but merely pointing out that they are in violation of God's covenant. Re: Hitler, again, I don't have a clue, as nothing has been revealed.

by: jilldoe

01-15-2010 @ 5:58pm

I lack the vocabulary to respond to all of this "pact with the devil" back and forth. I lack the vocabulary to respond to the suffering in Haiti. My heart aches and yet I know that these are the moments when we have an opportunity to mediate the love of God; to do as much as we are able. As people of faith, we love and we pray. As people of faith we have the capacity to put our love and prayers into action. Clearly there are some people who embrace Mr. Robertson's comments. God bless them. God bless the Christian so weak in faith and knowledge that they are stopped in their tracks at the mere mention of ancient pacts. Meanwhile, well, I lack the words to fully say what is going on while we wring our hands and pay attention and lip service to ancient pacts.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:02pm

So let's respond to the Haiti crisis. What will you be doing? I will be urging folks around me to contribute to faith-based NGOs with an outstanding disaster response and long term development track record.

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-16-2010 @ 2:45am

Let me know when you hear something. I think that is one of the lamest cop outs for bad theology I have ever heard but, whatever works for you, man.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:03pm

Let us respond with financial support to those who are expert, faithful, and trustworthy to respond to this tragic event

by: avoicecrying33

01-16-2010 @ 2:46am

I am a new Christian and I am having a problem connecting what God did in the Old Testament and What He did with Jesus, his son in the New. The God that Jesus speaks of isn't genocidal, He is full of Love and compassiion, there is judgement and wrath for those who continue to live in sin away from him but followers of Christ are supposed to be shining lights, we are supposed to be like Him, we are supposed to pray for our enemies and to speak His truth,

nowhere do I see Jesus telling us to slaughter and torture and rape and kill. What has been done to the native peoples by the followers of Christ is a shame and should be called out as one.

I almost became an atheist because I was buying into the dawkins/Hitchens argument that God is a genocidal,egomaniacal sociopath and then He lead to me to read the Book of Matthew and I was shown how wrong that view is.

You JRollen make it sound like God is genocidal and egomaniacal. I get confused and many other people do as well and loose their faith because of people like Pat Robertson.

looking at the comments it seems that there is a cold war within Christianity itself and I am trying to discern what side is God's Side

by: avoicecrying33

01-16-2010 @ 2:51am

Look at the policies that the Christian Right support. Policies that help the greedy and hurt the poor, policies that do damage to this great creation that God gave us to take care of. unjust wars that are waged without care of those that die in them ect.

Romans 11: 17-21 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Every time a Christian goes against the words of the prophets, goes against the teachings of our Lord and king and then talk about the jews and their violation without being humble on their own violations of the new and everlasting covenent.

Jesus is Patient, God is merciful but there will come a day when He might say "Go away from me, I never knew you"

God Bless

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:15pm

Hi duh,

No, that is not my contention. What words did you get that from?

I will contend that God's wrath is aimed at those for whom the Bible says it is aimed for, namely, those that do not believe in His Son. As Jesus says, "anyone who does not believe stands condemned already." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at everyone who comes into the world - "by nature we are children of wrath." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at all who sin. It is my contention that God's wrath was poured out on the Jews in AD70 (Mt. 24). It is my contention that God will pour out His wrath for eternity on His enemies.

I am not sure I buy that Christ descended into Hell, although I don't think that puts one beyond the pale, but I don't believe that Jesus did that for everyone. Perhaps you are a universalist contrary to the Scriptures, but I don't by that.

Was God's wrath poured out on Egypt (read Exodus)? Was God's wrath poured out on the Jews (1 Thess. 2.14-16)? Paul even says, "It has come on them at last." Much more could be said, but...

Also, I am not saying the earthquake was God's wrath - I don't know - but I am simply saying that Mr Beiler is WIDE of the mark and distorting what Pat said. Let me also add, I am not defending Pat, but the fallacious responses, like this one, are equally errant.

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 2:53am

Hey Jeff, your last entry doesn't allow 'reply', so I am replying here.

Why is saying that nothing has been revealed a cop out? The secret things belong to God, but what has been revealed is for us and our children (Dt. 29.29). I am not saying "something revealed to me" as if I am some prophet, but what exactly is the bad theology?

Clearly, I am in a game of you trying to get me and find fault, but I am willing to play, because aside from you asserting I have bad theology, I have yet to see you refute a single thing I have said, but you keep coming up with new "gotchas" without actually getting me.

Did Jesus predict the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 in Mt. 24? I say, 'yes', and that's been revealed to me. Nothing in the Bible, at least that I see, said anything about Hitler. Maybe we should read some Nostradamus and piece it together.

Anyway, aside from trying to find fault with me - can you point to specific errors? Not just bald assertions - lame cop out.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 6:16pm

Let me preface what I'm about to say here: it has been a long time since I have considered Pat Robertson a serious political commentator or theologian. And his comments about Haiti were on the whole very wrong and unjust. But:

The claim that the leaders of Haiti's slave revolt pledged allegiance to the devil in exchange for his help in throwing off the French yoke is, as Beiler himself says, "shrouded in legend". But the thing about legends is they sometimes contain a kernel of truth.

It is at least possible that the severity and persistence of corruption in the Haitian government is grounded in some flaw in Haitian culture. The prevalence of vodou cults might contribute to the oppressiveness of a government that in turn has done much to keep Haiti poor. For instance, superstitiousness might promote a certain fatalism that discourages the public from pursuing reforms. Perhaps this culture must be changed for Haiti to prosper.

Of course, with wierd speculation about pacts with the Devil, Pat Robertson managed to take a complicated and sensitive issue and turn it into the stuff of campfire stories. Whatever happened to Haiti, it's certainly larger than Bois Caiman.

LV

by: jrollen

01-16-2010 @ 3:01am

Hey avoicecrying33, I am not a member of the "religious right", so I don't know what policies you are referring to. If you mean things like the Great Society & the New Deal, then I completely agree with you that these policies have enslaved whole groups of people & have created government plantations & have given us structural poverty. Such government programs and slavery, which includes stealing from one group of people to give to others, should be opposed at every turn. It merely creates more poverty.

I don't support any of the U.S. led wars, so, again, I don't know if you are trying to lock me into something, make me guilty by association or what, but...

Anyone who has met God will not be turned away due to Pat Robertson's words. I know God, I don't care what Pat, Jim Wallis, the Pope, or many others have to say. They cannot get me to turn away from the faith, b/c I have met my God.

Re: Rom. 11, I believe that is referring to prophecies before the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 - part of the reason we don't go to the Jews first, then the Gentiles...but that is beyond the scope of this...

Thanks for your comments.

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 6:36pm

My wife and I have sponsored children through World
Vision<http://www.worldvision.org/>since we were married 20 years ago.
World Vision is one of the most trusted
NGO's operating today. We try and submit all of our contributions to those
who need help through World Vision. We have already made a contribution to
the Haitians via WV. If you sponsor a child, and have an existing account,
giving is made very easy via their website.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 6:38pm

It's edifying that so many have spoken out against Robertson's arrogance and presumption. Still, as I've commented on another post here, Robertson's comment reflects a common weakness of faith-based reasoning. Once you start ascribing divine intervention to certain events, you are obligated to explain the unexplainable, because every event afterward must have a cause and a purpose.

The best among the faithful take the approach that those purposes are unknowable, and they are saved from the breathtaking arrogance that afflicts Pat Robertson.

Even so, I suspect there are very few Christians or Muslims who don't think they know when someone else is being judged. If Barack Obama suffered a fatal heart attack tonight, most conservative Evangelicals would see a divine hand in the death of Sasha's and Malia's father. Most of them would have the tact not to say so publicly, but let's face it, there would be a lot of smirking in private company.

If you can read this and tell me you've never seen misfortune fall on someone and believed in your heart that it was your god of choice smiting an enemy, then you're a better person than most people of faith I've met.

The truth is that some things just happen, through no one's fault but physics. Robertson's response is just the latest manifestation of faith-based reasoning, which can not fathom the random or the coincidental.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:46pm

Hi Skeptimal,

As a Christian, I cannot accept that "some things just happen." There is a huge difference between knowing why all things happen according to God's sovereignty and believing that "some things just happen." And, if Pat Robertson died tonight, then you would have plenty of skeptics and those on the religious right rejoicing that so & so & so & so lost a grandpa, but...nice sentimental appeal.

The reality - in Egypt - all Egyptians lost their firstborn at the hand of God. Do with it what you will, but chalking it up to "just happens" isn't a Biblical option.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 7:20pm

I think you're mistaken about the judgmentalism of monotheists in general and Christians in particular. Certainly the temptation to judge is very prevalent but self-righteousness is not exclusive to Christians. The Bible itself warns that God's ways are difficult to discern and that Christians ought not be quick to judge. (I'm actually softening the scriptures a bit -- the full-on quotation is "judge not, lest ye be judged.")

Your speculation that most Christians would "see a divine hand" if Barack Obama were to die quickly of a heart attack is unfair. Oh sure, Pat Robertson would probably say something very unhelpful (see above) and he'll get a lot of attention, but most evangelicals, even the most politically conservative, would not smirk, at least not for long.

First, in strictly political terms, the political fallout of Obama's death would be hard to figure. It would not be hard to image the Democrats rallying around VP Biden to pass Obama's legislative agenda in that situation. That alone would wipe a lot of smirks off a lot of faces.

More to the point though, a theologically sound Christian understands that we are all sinners who, regardless of our position on Guantanamo Bay or the public option, must ultimately rely on God's mercy. If that mercy is withheld from Obama, that doesn't increase the odds that mercy will be granted to me.

I won't tell you I've never entertained the notion that God has had a hand in the misfortunes of my enemies, but at various points I've entertained all sorts of dumb ideas that I talked myself out of (or got talked out of) later.

There was a time when people believed that light travelled through this wierd substance called "aether". The theory of aether was eventually debunked. And yet there is still light. The fact that people have dumb ideas about God doesn't mean there isn't a God.

LV

by: Faydine

01-15-2010 @ 7:30pm

Ok, I'll jump in. The earthquake didn't just happen. Haiti has a fault running through it. Faults cause quakes from time to time. Whether that was part of God's divine plan, or was a result of the fall, I do not know.

I do believe in the devil. I also believe that Haiti could be run better -- even though it's bound for destruction, since it is on a major fault and right in the path or nearly every hurricane that ends up in the Atlantic. Still, I think if all the nations tried, they could help that country run a little better, and it's people would be safer; and all this aid wouldn't be going to pulling foriengers out from under the rubble, but Haitians themselves. So no, Pat Robertson isn't the biggest villian in this story.

by: BlueDeacon

01-16-2010 @ 1:33pm

I actually agree with you.

by: Paul Clutterbuck

01-21-2010 @ 11:05pm

As my great-grandmother used to say, "Only the good die young; the old are left to repent." She herself ended up living to 92!!

by: facebook-1127576872

01-20-2010 @ 10:23pm

Of course the devil is real - I don't think this article is disputing that. What I think it does dispute is the accuracy of a specific pact and if it cannot be verified, how can Pat Robertson issue such judgements.

I think the problem many of us have is - is the best Christian response, particularly at this stage?

We can argue theology, humanism and speculate on the spiritual, economic, political causes all we want - how is this helping the people of Haiti in any way - physically or spiritually?

My understanding of the Bible is that Jesus reserved his harshest judgement for the religious leaders of His day.

No doubt the people in general were also disobedient, sinful, etc but as I read it, I see that he extends healing, deliverance, mercy and then people naturally followed him to hear of this better way.

Possibly I'm just too simple minded.

Should probably stop reading the comments sections.

by: daveyjones888

01-20-2010 @ 3:50pm

Great post - soon to be deleted for too much truth, but great post.

by: bclen

01-20-2010 @ 2:32pm

Thanks for this article. It is fascinating for some reason to indulge in speculating about all these things.
I was wondering however why you quoted the Boukman Dutty ceremony prayer when the Hatian history link you gave casts doubt on it's authenticity.

My thoughts on this matter are 1 that if Satan has no credit for wreaking this disaster then God gets the credit and this casts doubt on his being a good and loving God to his children.

and 2, the quoted scripture from Luke 13 does offer the most helpful perspective. Yes, we will all die. NO, none are worse sinners than others and just because some of us have escaped some 'natural disaster' we should not think we are more loved of God.

Really I think we should all be reflecting on how did we (as Jesus' people) allow a situation to exist where people were already in such dire poverty as was in Haiti before the quake. Perhaps this will be an opportunity for good even in the wake of such evil (suffering and death).

by: squeaky

01-19-2010 @ 5:00pm

The problem with your exegesis is that your exegesis, and only yours, constitutes truth. The Scriptures hold far more mystery than that, and just because someone else's exegesis has come to a different conclusion than yours, does not mean theirs is wrong--you might be wrong sometimes, you know. You don't know or understand the mind of God any better than any of us do. Personally, in my understanding of Scripture and Jesus, I suspect God has far, far more grace than you seem to want to give Him credit for.

Scholars and theologians have been wrestling with Scripture for centuries, so this idea that yours is the one true interpretation is really pretty silly. There are many difficult questions that require better answers than "Scripture says so, and if you don't believe what I think Scripture is saying, you don't believe in the True God." Which is likely the reason for Pastor Jeff's cryptic responses. He doesn't see you as someone willing to wrestle with the questions, especially when you dismiss people as not knowing the true God or not being a real Christian because they don't think the way you do. You just might not know it all, you know.

by: Skeptimal

01-19-2010 @ 1:57pm

To clarify, I wouldn't say that I "know" there is no overarching purpose to the universe, but I think that's the theory that's most consistent with the available facts.

I do believe that there is ample evidence that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are not true.

And you're right, you can't disprove gods. The joke could be on me. All I can say is that I'm approaching the question as honestly as I know how.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 9:12pm

LV,

The point I was trying to make was not that being judgmental is a uniquely monotheistic flaw. It isn't, and my own poor attitude at times is evidence of that. Nor are monotheists the only ones who believe in supernatural punishment: Sharon Stone proved that with her asinine statement that the Chinese earthquake might have been Karmic retribution for the Chinese invasion of Tibet.

I also was not saying believers' human flaws have anything to say about whether or not there are gods. Certainly the human flaws in naturalists do not mean that gods *do* exist.

What I *was* saying was that those Christians who are upset at Robertson should consider that he is manifesting an inability to accept accident or coincidence as reality. And that inability is common to most of those who believe in supernatural intervention in human affairs. The fact that Robertson thinks he knows the supernatural causes and purposes behind natural disasters is only an extreme manifestation of a common problem: the inability to accept accident and coincidence.

In another comment on this site, I gave the example of believers' responses to the extended illness that killed my mother recently. It seemed to me that the believers affected by her illness had a harder time than the rest, in no small part because they had to attach a supernatural purpose to her condition. Whether they know that purpose or not, it must be one of three things: sin, weak faith, or it is part of a bigger and incomprehensible plan. Each of those possibilities is, in and of itself, troubling at many levels.

I'm not saying that believers should change their beliefs to avoid unnecessary pain, because facts don't change to suit our convenience or comfort. What I *am* saying is that believers who are inclined to claim that they've had a miracle should be aware of the full implication of that statement.

It is almost a certainty that an American Christian in Haiti will be on the air in the next week saing, in effect, that they survived the earthquake because of divine intervention. As glad as we should all be that all the survivors are still alive, those who claim there was a special reason they were saved (i.e. their faith in Jesus) are also saying that those less fortunate either: sinned, didn't have enough faith, or were not sufficiently important to the plan to be saved from a painful death. You can't have it both ways.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-19-2010 @ 12:31pm

I don't think there's much I can add at this point. Smarter men than I have failed to develop an airtight case for God's existence, and odds are there never will be one. There's a reason that the Bible speaks of "faith" and not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

I'm not sure how you "know" that the universe doesn't have a purpose, that life ends, and that all that happens is accidents and coincidence rather than divinely guided plans. There's still so much that we don't know just about the physical world. But I see it hard to create meaning in a universe where anything we might create is bound to end as "dark energy" tears up everything that exists. (Which is the leading theory now)

In the end, I think a case can be made that the agnostics are really the most honest. Impossible as it is to prove that God exists (his ways being unfathomable and all) it's even more of a challenge to prove a negative.

LV

by: jrollen

01-19-2010 @ 4:39am

scat, basically, we can believe whatever we want, right? For you say, "Personally, I think ANYTHING that passes through the minds and hands of mankind is bound to get a little warped or blurred...[the] Bible was a politically guided decisions of the early church."

Then you add this gem, "On the other hand, Christ's teachings are clear and simple." Prey tell, what teachings of Christ do you refer to? Are you referring to the one's that have passed down through the minds and hands of mankind"? Or are you referring to the ones that were gathered due to the political motivations of the early church?

I have a hunch that you aren't referring to Jesus' teaching on hell, his testimony that some are children of the Devil, or that the world hates him because he testifies that what they do is evil. I am sure those words passed through the hands and minds of man, but the ones you like are for the keeping, right? Also, once Jesus' words come into your mind, are they blurred? Are they still "clear & simple"? Is your mind different than other mens minds? Does Jesus' words avoid getting warped in your mind?

"It seems to me that this earthquake is a natural consequence of Haiti's location." This simply begs: who put it there? Who put the fault line there, as well? Or did blind nature happen to put it there?

Not sure what legend you refer to, but in traditional Christian doctrine it is Satan's attempt to exalt himself over God and has nothing to do with his desire to know his mind. After all, if that is the Satanic lie, what is the use of knowing Christ and his word? Is he not God incarnate? If so, & we can understand Christ's words, are we attempting to know the mind of god & buying into Satan's schemes?

Like Adam & Eve, the Satanic lie is a denial of God's word - "did God really say?" That is much of what you are saying above, "Did God really say he destroyed the earth with a flood? Did God really say..."

Thanks.

by: scat

01-19-2010 @ 2:32am

It is very disconcerting at first when you see "Christians" fighting amongst themselves, often in very disrespectful terms. It demonstrates how so many different understandings of the Bible are possible. Yet there are those who claim that their view is the only right view. Last I heard, there are over 20,000 denominations. That's a lot of disagreement.

Like you, I also became more progressive/liberal after committing myself to following Christ's teachings. As a practical person, I find most theological discussions involve ideas the truth of which is impossible to know in our present state of knowledge and thus a big waste of time. Some believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, while others see it as oprimarily metaphorical designed to teach us God's will for us through parables. Personally, I think anything that passes through the minds and hands of mankind is bound to get a little warped or blurred. And we know that there are still many ancient manuscripts yet to be discovered and many that were destroyed and that what consistututes today's Bible was a politically guided decisions of early church officials.
On the other hand, Christ's teachings are clear and simple. Even children understand them. If you hold remarks like those of robertson up against the teachings of Christ, they are clearly cruel and pretentious and based on an old legend. Anyone who presumes to speck for God in this type of situation is on thin ice. It seems to me that this earthquake is a natural consequence of Haiti's location. Seems to me that God gave us a natural world to live in subject to natural cause and effect. He may choose to interefere or not with natural events for reasons we can only ponder but never really know. As I recall, pretending to know God's mind and thus to be His equal is what got Lucifer in trouble. At least that's the legend.

by: lyonqueen

01-15-2010 @ 10:25pm

Skeptimal:

Well said.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: MimiRothschild

01-15-2010 @ 2:52pm

If the Bible is true, then the devil is alive and well and ready to make pacts with anyone who is willing. He is especially interested in those who would deny that he exists.

While God suffers with the suffering and we need compassion and action on behalf of Haiti's devastation, to ignore the truth about the reality and power of satan only fuel his evil exploits.

God is real and so is the devil. The devil makes deals. While I do not know the veracity of Pat Robertson's allegation that Haiti's government made a pact with the devil, I can tell you that the fact that his statement has spawned international discussion about the existence of God and Satan is a very good thing.

For all the good that you have done, Mr. Wallis, to enlighten people to the Biblical commands to stand with the poor, the widows, the orphans, you do a great disservice to the Gospel today by diminishing the reality of Satan's power and influence in your statements.

While God is not the author of evil, God does allow it. God does have the power to stop it and He chooses not to. He gives us Free Will and with that freedom to choose, we got the Fall and the devil. The Fall of man and the devil is the reason for evil and the suffering in Haiti. Not all people who sin suffer, but all suffering is one way or another the result of sin and the fall of man.

Pat Robertson did not diminish the suffering in Haiti. He has called for compassion and action. He has organized a major relief effort through Operation Blessing Disaster relief and has been at the forefront of other relief efforts globally.

I have no affiliation with Mr. Pat Robertson or the 700 Club. My interest is seeking justice with regard to this issue and speaking the truth.

God is real and so is Satan. Satan would love to divide Christians. Satan's tools are confusion and division. Mr. Wallis, I implore you to you take a stand for the God who speaks plainly about the power of the devil. There is a war for people's souls. Whose side are you on? This issue has nothing less than life and death consequences. The world is watching.

The most effective way for the devil to prevail is for people to not even believe he exists.(CS Lewis).

Mimi Rothschild
Co-Founder, Learning By Grace, Inc.
www.LearningByGrace.org

by: MimiRothschild

01-15-2010 @ 2:52pm

If the Bible is true, then the devil is alive and well and ready to make pacts with anyone who is willing. He is especially interested in those who would deny that he exists.

While God suffers with the suffering and we need compassion and action on behalf of Haiti's devastation, to ignore the truth about the reality and power of satan only fuel his evil exploits.

God is real and so is the devil. The devil makes deals. While I do not know the veracity of Pat Robertson's allegation that Haiti's government made a pact with the devil, I can tell you that the fact that his statement has spawned international discussion about the existence of God and Satan is a very good thing.

For all the good that you have done, Mr. Wallis, to enlighten people to the Biblical commands to stand with the poor, the widows, the orphans, you do a great disservice to the Gospel today by diminishing the reality of Satan's power and influence in your statements.

While God is not the author of evil, God does allow it. God does have the power to stop it and He chooses not to. He gives us Free Will and with that freedom to choose, we got the Fall and the devil. The Fall of man and the devil is the reason for evil and the suffering in Haiti. Not all people who sin suffer, but all suffering is one way or another the result of sin and the fall of man.

Pat Robertson did not diminish the suffering in Haiti. He has called for compassion and action. He has organized a major relief effort through Operation Blessing Disaster relief and has been at the forefront of other relief efforts globally.

I have no affiliation with Mr. Pat Robertson or the 700 Club. My interest is seeking justice with regard to this issue and speaking the truth.

God is real and so is Satan. Satan would love to divide Christians. Satan's tools are confusion and division. Mr. Wallis, I implore you to you take a stand for the God who speaks plainly about the power of the devil. There is a war for people's souls. Whose side are you on? This issue has nothing less than life and death consequences. The world is watching.

The most effective way for the devil to prevail is for people to not even believe he exists.(CS Lewis).

Mimi Rothschild
Co-Founder, Learning By Grace, Inc.
www.LearningByGrace.org

by: skiptomyloumydarling

01-15-2010 @ 3:07pm

Quick question for you cats - did God author the cross? Did he not ordain and cause the greatest "evil" ever to have been imposed upon this earth - the suffering of the innocent deity? I think some of you folks need to take a deep breath, read a little systematic theology, and recognize that God causes many, many things. It is no surprise the author likes Donald Miller's article, because that same article asserts brazenly that we are "not under the old testament but the new." Again, take a deep breath, do a little digging and then post for the world to see. Pat should have done the same, but what is worse - asserting that God may indeed bestow His wrath upon a nation that has turned against Him or asserting that God has no wrath whatsoever?

by: skiptomyloumydarling

01-15-2010 @ 3:07pm

Quick question for you cats - did God author the cross? Did he not ordain and cause the greatest "evil" ever to have been imposed upon this earth - the suffering of the innocent deity? I think some of you folks need to take a deep breath, read a little systematic theology, and recognize that God causes many, many things. It is no surprise the author likes Donald Miller's article, because that same article asserts brazenly that we are "not under the old testament but the new." Again, take a deep breath, do a little digging and then post for the world to see. Pat should have done the same, but what is worse - asserting that God may indeed bestow His wrath upon a nation that has turned against Him or asserting that God has no wrath whatsoever?

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 3:45pm

Mr Beiler, your anger is getting the best of you. Did you pay any attention to what Pat was saying or are you just responding to a sound bite? Me thinks you are bordering on false testimony here &, despite humanist contentions to the contrary, liars will be in for greater destruction, am I right? Is that what the Bible teaches? What about the plagues in Egypt? Was Moses blaming the victims? The prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, was Jesus blaming the victims? Sapphire? Herod when he was eaten by worms? Were they victims?

Your "theology" is really humanism and not theology at all.

Also, I think your final word to Jesus is a distortion of the context. He was talking about reading the impending signs of judgment (Luke 12), and that something worse was about to happen to them. Pat was not saying they were worse sinners, so you prooftexting is wrong. Your inability to understand Pat or the Bible is unbecoming of someone who presumes to be a teacher.

As pointed out, I love that you quote Donald Miller and his HERETICAL (and that is what it is) assertion that God's character changed in the New Testament. Seriously, that is heretical. Not only is it heretical, but it just presumes it understands the New Testament, which includes the fact that "the wrath of God is being revealed."

I admonish you guys to repent. The only way you can come up with your theology is by distorting the Bible, which includes cutting off the first half the story. And, negate much of the second half, which includes ALL SCRIPTURE, i.e. the OT, is God-breathed.

You didn't listen to a thing Pat was saying - pray, donate, & help - but latch onto one thing for your own political agenda.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 3:45pm

Mr Beiler, your anger is getting the best of you. Did you pay any attention to what Pat was saying or are you just responding to a sound bite? Me thinks you are bordering on false testimony here &, despite humanist contentions to the contrary, liars will be in for greater destruction, am I right? Is that what the Bible teaches? What about the plagues in Egypt? Was Moses blaming the victims? The prophesied destruction of Jerusalem, was Jesus blaming the victims? Sapphire? Herod when he was eaten by worms? Were they victims?

Your "theology" is really humanism and not theology at all.

Also, I think your final word to Jesus is a distortion of the context. He was talking about reading the impending signs of judgment (Luke 12), and that something worse was about to happen to them. Pat was not saying they were worse sinners, so you prooftexting is wrong. Your inability to understand Pat or the Bible is unbecoming of someone who presumes to be a teacher.

As pointed out, I love that you quote Donald Miller and his HERETICAL (and that is what it is) assertion that God's character changed in the New Testament. Seriously, that is heretical. Not only is it heretical, but it just presumes it understands the New Testament, which includes the fact that "the wrath of God is being revealed."

I admonish you guys to repent. The only way you can come up with your theology is by distorting the Bible, which includes cutting off the first half the story. And, negate much of the second half, which includes ALL SCRIPTURE, i.e. the OT, is God-breathed.

You didn't listen to a thing Pat was saying - pray, donate, & help - but latch onto one thing for your own political agenda.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 4:10pm

Worth noting that Pat Robertson's less than enlightening observations about Haiti have been the subject of no less than three posts here.

Meanwhile, Sojo has been pretty much silent on the state of the health care bill since the Senate passed it's version.

Make of that what you will.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 4:10pm

Worth noting that Pat Robertson's less than enlightening observations about Haiti have been the subject of no less than three posts here.

Meanwhile, Sojo has been pretty much silent on the state of the health care bill since the Senate passed it's version.

Make of that what you will.

LV

by: BlueDeacon

01-15-2010 @ 4:14pm

If the Bible is true, then the devil is alive and well and ready to make pacts with anyone who is willing. He is especially interested in those who would deny that he exists.

You assume he has the authority to do so. We need to remember that God is the Ultimate Sovereign and that, as you said, nothing happens unless He permits it; even the devil must answer to Him.

And besides that, too many Christians are unaware of how the devil operates; however, he is known as "the Accuser" and is interested only in destruction, never in reconciliation and healing. That said, there are lot of Christians influence by the devil and don't even realize it.

by: BlueDeacon

01-15-2010 @ 4:14pm

If the Bible is true, then the devil is alive and well and ready to make pacts with anyone who is willing. He is especially interested in those who would deny that he exists.

You assume he has the authority to do so. We need to remember that God is the Ultimate Sovereign and that, as you said, nothing happens unless He permits it; even the devil must answer to Him.

And besides that, too many Christians are unaware of how the devil operates; however, he is known as "the Accuser" and is interested only in destruction, never in reconciliation and healing. That said, there are lot of Christians influence by the devil and don't even realize it.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:03pm

Here's what I make of it. We need to move from a "theology of blame" and "devil's pacts" (which by definition is not to be trusted) to a "theology of love-in-action" for those suffering from "human words can't do justice" to this tragedy.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:03pm

Here's what I make of it. We need to move from a "theology of blame" and "devil's pacts" (which by definition is not to be trusted) to a "theology of love-in-action" for those suffering from "human words can't do justice" to this tragedy.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:09pm

Is it your contention that God's wrath is aimed for those whose theology is different from yours? Funny how it always works out that way.

And I definitely believe in the demonic because there is the ultimate self-serving theology of "get my butt into heaven" becomes more important than the Great Commandment to "love as Christ loved us." The One I struggle to follow actually descended into hell, meeting us at the place of ultimate distance from God to bring us back to God.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:09pm

Is it your contention that God's wrath is aimed for those whose theology is different from yours? Funny how it always works out that way.

And I definitely believe in the demonic because there is the ultimate self-serving theology of "get my butt into heaven" becomes more important than the Great Commandment to "love as Christ loved us." The One I struggle to follow actually descended into hell, meeting us at the place of ultimate distance from God to bring us back to God.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:14pm

Yes, I not only believe in the demonic, I've seen it. Individuals, ideologies, nations, humanity is so sinful and self-centered and self-justifying. What is learningbygrace.org doing right now for the earthquake victims in Haiti?

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 5:14pm

Yes, I not only believe in the demonic, I've seen it. Individuals, ideologies, nations, humanity is so sinful and self-centered and self-justifying. What is learningbygrace.org doing right now for the earthquake victims in Haiti?

by: jjernig2

01-15-2010 @ 5:23pm

I find it interesting that it wasn't Pat Robertson who personally clarified what he was saying. It looked like CBN was doing damage control while trying not to make Robertson look the fool.

I definitely agree that Satan is alive and active in this world on a daily basis. But, I think most of his actions are more subtile. Could the devil just as well be speaking through Robertson to further attempt to demonize Christianity?

by: jjernig2

01-15-2010 @ 5:23pm

I find it interesting that it wasn't Pat Robertson who personally clarified what he was saying. It looked like CBN was doing damage control while trying not to make Robertson look the fool.

I definitely agree that Satan is alive and active in this world on a daily basis. But, I think most of his actions are more subtile. Could the devil just as well be speaking through Robertson to further attempt to demonize Christianity?

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 5:36pm

Thank God I will be judged by Him and not all these opinionated "believers." This is modern day "Christianity" in America. More like Blue State/Red State than love your neighbor. Why do I keep reading the comments sections? Proverbs 26:11

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 5:36pm

Thank God I will be judged by Him and not all these opinionated "believers." This is modern day "Christianity" in America. More like Blue State/Red State than love your neighbor. Why do I keep reading the comments sections? Proverbs 26:11

by: jilldoe

01-15-2010 @ 5:58pm

I lack the vocabulary to respond to all of this "pact with the devil" back and forth. I lack the vocabulary to respond to the suffering in Haiti. My heart aches and yet I know that these are the moments when we have an opportunity to mediate the love of God; to do as much as we are able. As people of faith, we love and we pray. As people of faith we have the capacity to put our love and prayers into action. Clearly there are some people who embrace Mr. Robertson's comments. God bless them. God bless the Christian so weak in faith and knowledge that they are stopped in their tracks at the mere mention of ancient pacts. Meanwhile, well, I lack the words to fully say what is going on while we wring our hands and pay attention and lip service to ancient pacts.

by: jilldoe

01-15-2010 @ 5:58pm

I lack the vocabulary to respond to all of this "pact with the devil" back and forth. I lack the vocabulary to respond to the suffering in Haiti. My heart aches and yet I know that these are the moments when we have an opportunity to mediate the love of God; to do as much as we are able. As people of faith, we love and we pray. As people of faith we have the capacity to put our love and prayers into action. Clearly there are some people who embrace Mr. Robertson's comments. God bless them. God bless the Christian so weak in faith and knowledge that they are stopped in their tracks at the mere mention of ancient pacts. Meanwhile, well, I lack the words to fully say what is going on while we wring our hands and pay attention and lip service to ancient pacts.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:02pm

So let's respond to the Haiti crisis. What will you be doing? I will be urging folks around me to contribute to faith-based NGOs with an outstanding disaster response and long term development track record.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:02pm

So let's respond to the Haiti crisis. What will you be doing? I will be urging folks around me to contribute to faith-based NGOs with an outstanding disaster response and long term development track record.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:03pm

Let us respond with financial support to those who are expert, faithful, and trustworthy to respond to this tragic event

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 6:03pm

Let us respond with financial support to those who are expert, faithful, and trustworthy to respond to this tragic event

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:15pm

Hi duh,

No, that is not my contention. What words did you get that from?

I will contend that God's wrath is aimed at those for whom the Bible says it is aimed for, namely, those that do not believe in His Son. As Jesus says, "anyone who does not believe stands condemned already." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at everyone who comes into the world - "by nature we are children of wrath." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at all who sin. It is my contention that God's wrath was poured out on the Jews in AD70 (Mt. 24). It is my contention that God will pour out His wrath for eternity on His enemies.

I am not sure I buy that Christ descended into Hell, although I don't think that puts one beyond the pale, but I don't believe that Jesus did that for everyone. Perhaps you are a universalist contrary to the Scriptures, but I don't by that.

Was God's wrath poured out on Egypt (read Exodus)? Was God's wrath poured out on the Jews (1 Thess. 2.14-16)? Paul even says, "It has come on them at last." Much more could be said, but...

Also, I am not saying the earthquake was God's wrath - I don't know - but I am simply saying that Mr Beiler is WIDE of the mark and distorting what Pat said. Let me also add, I am not defending Pat, but the fallacious responses, like this one, are equally errant.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:15pm

Hi duh,

No, that is not my contention. What words did you get that from?

I will contend that God's wrath is aimed at those for whom the Bible says it is aimed for, namely, those that do not believe in His Son. As Jesus says, "anyone who does not believe stands condemned already." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at everyone who comes into the world - "by nature we are children of wrath." It is my contention that God's wrath is aimed at all who sin. It is my contention that God's wrath was poured out on the Jews in AD70 (Mt. 24). It is my contention that God will pour out His wrath for eternity on His enemies.

I am not sure I buy that Christ descended into Hell, although I don't think that puts one beyond the pale, but I don't believe that Jesus did that for everyone. Perhaps you are a universalist contrary to the Scriptures, but I don't by that.

Was God's wrath poured out on Egypt (read Exodus)? Was God's wrath poured out on the Jews (1 Thess. 2.14-16)? Paul even says, "It has come on them at last." Much more could be said, but...

Also, I am not saying the earthquake was God's wrath - I don't know - but I am simply saying that Mr Beiler is WIDE of the mark and distorting what Pat said. Let me also add, I am not defending Pat, but the fallacious responses, like this one, are equally errant.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 6:16pm

Let me preface what I'm about to say here: it has been a long time since I have considered Pat Robertson a serious political commentator or theologian. And his comments about Haiti were on the whole very wrong and unjust. But:

The claim that the leaders of Haiti's slave revolt pledged allegiance to the devil in exchange for his help in throwing off the French yoke is, as Beiler himself says, "shrouded in legend". But the thing about legends is they sometimes contain a kernel of truth.

It is at least possible that the severity and persistence of corruption in the Haitian government is grounded in some flaw in Haitian culture. The prevalence of vodou cults might contribute to the oppressiveness of a government that in turn has done much to keep Haiti poor. For instance, superstitiousness might promote a certain fatalism that discourages the public from pursuing reforms. Perhaps this culture must be changed for Haiti to prosper.

Of course, with wierd speculation about pacts with the Devil, Pat Robertson managed to take a complicated and sensitive issue and turn it into the stuff of campfire stories. Whatever happened to Haiti, it's certainly larger than Bois Caiman.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 6:16pm

Let me preface what I'm about to say here: it has been a long time since I have considered Pat Robertson a serious political commentator or theologian. And his comments about Haiti were on the whole very wrong and unjust. But:

The claim that the leaders of Haiti's slave revolt pledged allegiance to the devil in exchange for his help in throwing off the French yoke is, as Beiler himself says, "shrouded in legend". But the thing about legends is they sometimes contain a kernel of truth.

It is at least possible that the severity and persistence of corruption in the Haitian government is grounded in some flaw in Haitian culture. The prevalence of vodou cults might contribute to the oppressiveness of a government that in turn has done much to keep Haiti poor. For instance, superstitiousness might promote a certain fatalism that discourages the public from pursuing reforms. Perhaps this culture must be changed for Haiti to prosper.

Of course, with wierd speculation about pacts with the Devil, Pat Robertson managed to take a complicated and sensitive issue and turn it into the stuff of campfire stories. Whatever happened to Haiti, it's certainly larger than Bois Caiman.

LV

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 6:36pm

My wife and I have sponsored children through World
Vision<http://www.worldvision.org/>since we were married 20 years ago.
World Vision is one of the most trusted
NGO's operating today. We try and submit all of our contributions to those
who need help through World Vision. We have already made a contribution to
the Haitians via WV. If you sponsor a child, and have an existing account,
giving is made very easy via their website.

by: Srfnff

01-15-2010 @ 6:36pm

My wife and I have sponsored children through World
Vision<http://www.worldvision.org/>since we were married 20 years ago.
World Vision is one of the most trusted
NGO's operating today. We try and submit all of our contributions to those
who need help through World Vision. We have already made a contribution to
the Haitians via WV. If you sponsor a child, and have an existing account,
giving is made very easy via their website.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 6:38pm

It's edifying that so many have spoken out against Robertson's arrogance and presumption. Still, as I've commented on another post here, Robertson's comment reflects a common weakness of faith-based reasoning. Once you start ascribing divine intervention to certain events, you are obligated to explain the unexplainable, because every event afterward must have a cause and a purpose.

The best among the faithful take the approach that those purposes are unknowable, and they are saved from the breathtaking arrogance that afflicts Pat Robertson.

Even so, I suspect there are very few Christians or Muslims who don't think they know when someone else is being judged. If Barack Obama suffered a fatal heart attack tonight, most conservative Evangelicals would see a divine hand in the death of Sasha's and Malia's father. Most of them would have the tact not to say so publicly, but let's face it, there would be a lot of smirking in private company.

If you can read this and tell me you've never seen misfortune fall on someone and believed in your heart that it was your god of choice smiting an enemy, then you're a better person than most people of faith I've met.

The truth is that some things just happen, through no one's fault but physics. Robertson's response is just the latest manifestation of faith-based reasoning, which can not fathom the random or the coincidental.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 6:38pm

It's edifying that so many have spoken out against Robertson's arrogance and presumption. Still, as I've commented on another post here, Robertson's comment reflects a common weakness of faith-based reasoning. Once you start ascribing divine intervention to certain events, you are obligated to explain the unexplainable, because every event afterward must have a cause and a purpose.

The best among the faithful take the approach that those purposes are unknowable, and they are saved from the breathtaking arrogance that afflicts Pat Robertson.

Even so, I suspect there are very few Christians or Muslims who don't think they know when someone else is being judged. If Barack Obama suffered a fatal heart attack tonight, most conservative Evangelicals would see a divine hand in the death of Sasha's and Malia's father. Most of them would have the tact not to say so publicly, but let's face it, there would be a lot of smirking in private company.

If you can read this and tell me you've never seen misfortune fall on someone and believed in your heart that it was your god of choice smiting an enemy, then you're a better person than most people of faith I've met.

The truth is that some things just happen, through no one's fault but physics. Robertson's response is just the latest manifestation of faith-based reasoning, which can not fathom the random or the coincidental.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:46pm

Hi Skeptimal,

As a Christian, I cannot accept that "some things just happen." There is a huge difference between knowing why all things happen according to God's sovereignty and believing that "some things just happen." And, if Pat Robertson died tonight, then you would have plenty of skeptics and those on the religious right rejoicing that so & so & so & so lost a grandpa, but...nice sentimental appeal.

The reality - in Egypt - all Egyptians lost their firstborn at the hand of God. Do with it what you will, but chalking it up to "just happens" isn't a Biblical option.

by: jrollen

01-15-2010 @ 6:46pm

Hi Skeptimal,

As a Christian, I cannot accept that "some things just happen." There is a huge difference between knowing why all things happen according to God's sovereignty and believing that "some things just happen." And, if Pat Robertson died tonight, then you would have plenty of skeptics and those on the religious right rejoicing that so & so & so & so lost a grandpa, but...nice sentimental appeal.

The reality - in Egypt - all Egyptians lost their firstborn at the hand of God. Do with it what you will, but chalking it up to "just happens" isn't a Biblical option.

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 7:20pm

I think you're mistaken about the judgmentalism of monotheists in general and Christians in particular. Certainly the temptation to judge is very prevalent but self-righteousness is not exclusive to Christians. The Bible itself warns that God's ways are difficult to discern and that Christians ought not be quick to judge. (I'm actually softening the scriptures a bit -- the full-on quotation is "judge not, lest ye be judged.")

Your speculation that most Christians would "see a divine hand" if Barack Obama were to die quickly of a heart attack is unfair. Oh sure, Pat Robertson would probably say something very unhelpful (see above) and he'll get a lot of attention, but most evangelicals, even the most politically conservative, would not smirk, at least not for long.

First, in strictly political terms, the political fallout of Obama's death would be hard to figure. It would not be hard to image the Democrats rallying around VP Biden to pass Obama's legislative agenda in that situation. That alone would wipe a lot of smirks off a lot of faces.

More to the point though, a theologically sound Christian understands that we are all sinners who, regardless of our position on Guantanamo Bay or the public option, must ultimately rely on God's mercy. If that mercy is withheld from Obama, that doesn't increase the odds that mercy will be granted to me.

I won't tell you I've never entertained the notion that God has had a hand in the misfortunes of my enemies, but at various points I've entertained all sorts of dumb ideas that I talked myself out of (or got talked out of) later.

There was a time when people believed that light travelled through this wierd substance called "aether". The theory of aether was eventually debunked. And yet there is still light. The fact that people have dumb ideas about God doesn't mean there isn't a God.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-15-2010 @ 7:20pm

I think you're mistaken about the judgmentalism of monotheists in general and Christians in particular. Certainly the temptation to judge is very prevalent but self-righteousness is not exclusive to Christians. The Bible itself warns that God's ways are difficult to discern and that Christians ought not be quick to judge. (I'm actually softening the scriptures a bit -- the full-on quotation is "judge not, lest ye be judged.")

Your speculation that most Christians would "see a divine hand" if Barack Obama were to die quickly of a heart attack is unfair. Oh sure, Pat Robertson would probably say something very unhelpful (see above) and he'll get a lot of attention, but most evangelicals, even the most politically conservative, would not smirk, at least not for long.

First, in strictly political terms, the political fallout of Obama's death would be hard to figure. It would not be hard to image the Democrats rallying around VP Biden to pass Obama's legislative agenda in that situation. That alone would wipe a lot of smirks off a lot of faces.

More to the point though, a theologically sound Christian understands that we are all sinners who, regardless of our position on Guantanamo Bay or the public option, must ultimately rely on God's mercy. If that mercy is withheld from Obama, that doesn't increase the odds that mercy will be granted to me.

I won't tell you I've never entertained the notion that God has had a hand in the misfortunes of my enemies, but at various points I've entertained all sorts of dumb ideas that I talked myself out of (or got talked out of) later.

There was a time when people believed that light travelled through this wierd substance called "aether". The theory of aether was eventually debunked. And yet there is still light. The fact that people have dumb ideas about God doesn't mean there isn't a God.

LV

by: Faydine

01-15-2010 @ 7:30pm

Ok, I'll jump in. The earthquake didn't just happen. Haiti has a fault running through it. Faults cause quakes from time to time. Whether that was part of God's divine plan, or was a result of the fall, I do not know.

I do believe in the devil. I also believe that Haiti could be run better -- even though it's bound for destruction, since it is on a major fault and right in the path or nearly every hurricane that ends up in the Atlantic. Still, I think if all the nations tried, they could help that country run a little better, and it's people would be safer; and all this aid wouldn't be going to pulling foriengers out from under the rubble, but Haitians themselves. So no, Pat Robertson isn't the biggest villian in this story.

by: Faydine

01-15-2010 @ 7:30pm

Ok, I'll jump in. The earthquake didn't just happen. Haiti has a fault running through it. Faults cause quakes from time to time. Whether that was part of God's divine plan, or was a result of the fall, I do not know.

I do believe in the devil. I also believe that Haiti could be run better -- even though it's bound for destruction, since it is on a major fault and right in the path or nearly every hurricane that ends up in the Atlantic. Still, I think if all the nations tried, they could help that country run a little better, and it's people would be safer; and all this aid wouldn't be going to pulling foriengers out from under the rubble, but Haitians themselves. So no, Pat Robertson isn't the biggest villian in this story.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 9:12pm

LV,

The point I was trying to make was not that being judgmental is a uniquely monotheistic flaw. It isn't, and my own poor attitude at times is evidence of that. Nor are monotheists the only ones who believe in supernatural punishment: Sharon Stone proved that with her asinine statement that the Chinese earthquake might have been Karmic retribution for the Chinese invasion of Tibet.

I also was not saying believers' human flaws have anything to say about whether or not there are gods. Certainly the human flaws in naturalists do not mean that gods *do* exist.

What I *was* saying was that those Christians who are upset at Robertson should consider that he is manifesting an inability to accept accident or coincidence as reality. And that inability is common to most of those who believe in supernatural intervention in human affairs. The fact that Robertson thinks he knows the supernatural causes and purposes behind natural disasters is only an extreme manifestation of a common problem: the inability to accept accident and coincidence.

In another comment on this site, I gave the example of believers' responses to the extended illness that killed my mother recently. It seemed to me that the believers affected by her illness had a harder time than the rest, in no small part because they had to attach a supernatural purpose to her condition. Whether they know that purpose or not, it must be one of three things: sin, weak faith, or it is part of a bigger and incomprehensible plan. Each of those possibilities is, in and of itself, troubling at many levels.

I'm not saying that believers should change their beliefs to avoid unnecessary pain, because facts don't change to suit our convenience or comfort. What I *am* saying is that believers who are inclined to claim that they've had a miracle should be aware of the full implication of that statement.

It is almost a certainty that an American Christian in Haiti will be on the air in the next week saing, in effect, that they survived the earthquake because of divine intervention. As glad as we should all be that all the survivors are still alive, those who claim there was a special reason they were saved (i.e. their faith in Jesus) are also saying that those less fortunate either: sinned, didn't have enough faith, or were not sufficiently important to the plan to be saved from a painful death. You can't have it both ways.

by: Skeptimal

01-15-2010 @ 9:12pm

LV,

The point I was trying to make was not that being judgmental is a uniquely monotheistic flaw. It isn't, and my own poor attitude at times is evidence of that. Nor are monotheists the only ones who believe in supernatural punishment: Sharon Stone proved that with her asinine statement that the Chinese earthquake might have been Karmic retribution for the Chinese invasion of Tibet.

I also was not saying believers' human flaws have anything to say about whether or not there are gods. Certainly the human flaws in naturalists do not mean that gods *do* exist.

What I *was* saying was that those Christians who are upset at Robertson should consider that he is manifesting an inability to accept accident or coincidence as reality. And that inability is common to most of those who believe in supernatural intervention in human affairs. The fact that Robertson thinks he knows the supernatural causes and purposes behind natural disasters is only an extreme manifestation of a common problem: the inability to accept accident and coincidence.

In another comment on this site, I gave the example of believers' responses to the extended illness that killed my mother recently. It seemed to me that the believers affected by her illness had a harder time than the rest, in no small part because they had to attach a supernatural purpose to her condition. Whether they know that purpose or not, it must be one of three things: sin, weak faith, or it is part of a bigger and incomprehensible plan. Each of those possibilities is, in and of itself, troubling at many levels.

I'm not saying that believers should change their beliefs to avoid unnecessary pain, because facts don't change to suit our convenience or comfort. What I *am* saying is that believers who are inclined to claim that they've had a miracle should be aware of the full implication of that statement.

It is almost a certainty that an American Christian in Haiti will be on the air in the next week saing, in effect, that they survived the earthquake because of divine intervention. As glad as we should all be that all the survivors are still alive, those who claim there was a special reason they were saved (i.e. their faith in Jesus) are also saying that those less fortunate either: sinned, didn't have enough faith, or were not sufficiently important to the plan to be saved from a painful death. You can't have it both ways.

by: lyonqueen

01-15-2010 @ 10:25pm

Skeptimal:

Well said.

by: lyonqueen

01-15-2010 @ 10:25pm

Skeptimal:

Well said.

by: mjeinpenn

01-15-2010 @ 11:06pm

Great -- Just what we need. More Christian anti-Semitism. Your theology stinks.

by: mjeinpenn

01-15-2010 @ 11:06pm

Great -- Just what we need. More Christian anti-Semitism. Your theology stinks.

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:10pm

1. Europeans in the name of Christ "discover" the New World

2. The indigenous peoples they encounter are labeled "evil savages"

3. Meanwhile, the "good" Christ bearers murder, steal, abuse, torture, enslave, rape, plunder, and bring diseases that decimate the native peoples.

4. Not only that, the preachers along for the ride preach the Gospel of salvation. Some who hear this message think, not without case, "if this is the god you're offering, then count me out."

5. Of course, the Gospel being preached has been compromised by the ones who brought it. However, brave souls with conscience stand up for the "soulless, evil ones"

6. In Haiti in particular, the native peoples are replaced by slaves whose masters eventually become French.

7. These evil slaves rebel and become the first nation in the Western hemisphere to become free.

8. Let me pause in this little story to state, "Yes, I believe in the Devil, the demonic, the forces of evil." Doh! It is obvious in the history of Haiti to this point.

9. Now enter the televangelist, Pat Robertson. Rather than zeroing in on the demonic history initiated by Europeans, he picks on a myth of how the rebels made a "pact with the devil." Pardon me while I become outraged at the particular assignment of the "devil's team" to the rebels.

10. I am a little touchy. But I find Pat Robertson's take on the current earthquake situation to be sick. And I happen to be a cheerleader for Ryan's critique of the evangelist.

11. Now you bring in the "wrath of God." And you know what, I do happen to believe in said "wrath." It is a "wrath" aimed first against the fraud Jesus followers who brought genocide to the western hemisphere. As far as "wrath" against the voodoo doctors, sure. But they are the effect of the demonic cause.

12. This Haitian history certainly has meant hell for millions. I understand there are 2 million children on the loose right now. I will give up any pretense of "being theologically correct". I will gladly bear the title "heretic," if it means blessing for these children. The term "universalist" (can't spell it and I am not sure how it applies to me). However, I do believe that the Lord of Love has a universal love for each and everyone one of those children. If I am errant in this belief, then I will argue and wrestle with my Lord over this. I won't let go until God blesses them.

13. I guess I disagree that Ryan is wide of the mark in critiquing Pat Robertson's remarks.

14. I must say that I myself have been feeling wrath at the 700 Club theology. I will repent supporting the many honorable, effective, faith-based, disaster response organizations. Most of all, I will pray. If you, too, will join me in that, then I will gladly be willing to wrong. I believe in the triumph of Love incarnated in Jesus. May my Lord be embodied in the response we make in these hours, days, years, and generations following this earthquake.

This mode of communication is often lacking, open to misunderstanding. Here's my bottom line. Love invades the most awful, hellish situations, bringing redemption. I believe that Christ is the ultimate, ongoing Person who leads this invasion. May we, too, join in this special ops mission!

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:10pm

1. Europeans in the name of Christ "discover" the New World

2. The indigenous peoples they encounter are labeled "evil savages"

3. Meanwhile, the "good" Christ bearers murder, steal, abuse, torture, enslave, rape, plunder, and bring diseases that decimate the native peoples.

4. Not only that, the preachers along for the ride preach the Gospel of salvation. Some who hear this message think, not without case, "if this is the god you're offering, then count me out."

5. Of course, the Gospel being preached has been compromised by the ones who brought it. However, brave souls with conscience stand up for the "soulless, evil ones"

6. In Haiti in particular, the native peoples are replaced by slaves whose masters eventually become French.

7. These evil slaves rebel and become the first nation in the Western hemisphere to become free.

8. Let me pause in this little story to state, "Yes, I believe in the Devil, the demonic, the forces of evil." Doh! It is obvious in the history of Haiti to this point.

9. Now enter the televangelist, Pat Robertson. Rather than zeroing in on the demonic history initiated by Europeans, he picks on a myth of how the rebels made a "pact with the devil." Pardon me while I become outraged at the particular assignment of the "devil's team" to the rebels.

10. I am a little touchy. But I find Pat Robertson's take on the current earthquake situation to be sick. And I happen to be a cheerleader for Ryan's critique of the evangelist.

11. Now you bring in the "wrath of God." And you know what, I do happen to believe in said "wrath." It is a "wrath" aimed first against the fraud Jesus followers who brought genocide to the western hemisphere. As far as "wrath" against the voodoo doctors, sure. But they are the effect of the demonic cause.

12. This Haitian history certainly has meant hell for millions. I understand there are 2 million children on the loose right now. I will give up any pretense of "being theologically correct". I will gladly bear the title "heretic," if it means blessing for these children. The term "universalist" (can't spell it and I am not sure how it applies to me). However, I do believe that the Lord of Love has a universal love for each and everyone one of those children. If I am errant in this belief, then I will argue and wrestle with my Lord over this. I won't let go until God blesses them.

13. I guess I disagree that Ryan is wide of the mark in critiquing Pat Robertson's remarks.

14. I must say that I myself have been feeling wrath at the 700 Club theology. I will repent supporting the many honorable, effective, faith-based, disaster response organizations. Most of all, I will pray. If you, too, will join me in that, then I will gladly be willing to wrong. I believe in the triumph of Love incarnated in Jesus. May my Lord be embodied in the response we make in these hours, days, years, and generations following this earthquake.

This mode of communication is often lacking, open to misunderstanding. Here's my bottom line. Love invades the most awful, hellish situations, bringing redemption. I believe that Christ is the ultimate, ongoing Person who leads this invasion. May we, too, join in this special ops mission!

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:56pm

Blessings!

by: duhsciple

01-15-2010 @ 11:56pm

Blessings!