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Campaign Finance Outrage: Democracy for the Highest Bidder

100122-supreme-courtYesterday's Supreme Court ruling on campaign finance law will give a huge boost to the special interests that already exercise a stranglehold on our political system, allowing them to tighten their grip and further prevent any meaningful change. Dismissing the practice of the last century and overturning two major precedents, the Court ruled 5-4 that corporations have the same First Amendment rights as persons, and that those rights include spending corporate funds to influence elections.

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In the past, corporations have been permitted to spend their funds to run "issue" ads in relation to campaigns but those ads could not explicitly support or oppose individual candidates. Yesterday's ruling threw that precedent out the window. Corporations can now directly intervene in campaigns with candidate-specific ads. The only requirement remaining is that they be "independent expenditures," not coordinated with a campaign. But that is a requirement more of form than substance. In the closing days of an election campaign, the ad buys of a candidate are easily available, and even without any direct coordination, independent spending can support or complement what the candidate is doing.

The logical outcome of this decision is that there will be a new torrent of money into the electoral process. Corporations are now free to directly support candidates who support their interests, and oppose those who do not. Big banks can now target seats on the banking committees, insurance companies those on committees dealing with health-care issues, and defense contractors the armed services committees.

Last year, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, commercial banks spent 37 million dollars on Washington lobbyists to intercede in the democratic process, swaying lawmakers and protecting their narrow interests of bank bailouts and million dollar bonuses. Now, they can spend millions more on elections, targeting lawmakers who don't toe their line. Poor and working Americans will be further marginalized in their nation's capital.

Justice John Paul Stevens (joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, and Sonia Sotomayor) concluded his strong dissent by saying:

At bottom, the Court's opinion is thus a rejection of the common sense of the American people, who have recognized a need to prevent corporations from undermining self-government since the founding, and who have fought against the distinctive corrupting potential of corporate electioneering since the days of Theodore Roosevelt. It is a strange time to repudiate that common sense. While American democracy is imperfect, few outside the majority of this Court would have thought its flaws included a dearth of corporate money in politics.

Indeed. At a time when financial reform is at the forefront of people's concerns, giving big banks and corporations a green light to even further influence our political process is an outrage and an assault to democracy.

portrait-jim-wallisJim Wallis is the author of Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street -- A Moral Compass for the New Economy, CEO of Sojourners and blogs at www.godspolitics.com.

+Click here to get email updates from Jim Wallis

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

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by: BlueDeacon

01-23-2010 @ 4:19pm

I am not aware of any broadcast media that endorse candidates; only newspapers
do that and generally on the editorial page. (The only newspaper I've ever
seen blatantly support a specific candidate on its news pages is -- wait for
it -- the right-wing Republican paper in my city. And it has quite a
history.)

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 6:14pm

You're right. It's newspapers, which are owned by corporations, that endorse candidates. Why should these corporations have had exemptions that no other had?

by: hammerud

01-26-2010 @ 11:01am

Corporations and government are made up of people, and the people who exercise control can use the power of government and corporations to "speak." Government is becoming something that only gives the illusion of citizen participation; although the latest votes sent a message. The elite are trying to grab control and this latest grab attempt was behind the false smoke screen of health care reform. This 2000-plus page legislative monstrosity was about grabbing power, not health care reform, which could have been expressed in five pages of focused legislation. We might as well let the corporations join in the fun. As a culture we have turned our backs against God and truth and we are reaping the consequences. We need Godly leaders who will get back to the idea of limited government; not the clueless, spiritually dead power-grabbing secularists who have no regard for God or the Constitution.

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by: BlueDeacon

01-23-2010 @ 7:33pm

It's called the First Amendment.

by: jonabark

01-26-2010 @ 3:38pm

Provide an ounce of evidence that government was more limited under republican corporatocracy than under democratic corporatocracy. Name me a republican that reduced total spending for over 4 years. Corporations are designed to maximize profits and externalize costs. to treat them as a political party representing civic interests and invest a nonexistant person with the ability to "speak" is an exercise in self delusion and the murder of self government.

Name me 10 "Godly" leaders. Put flesh on this proposal.

by: SamHamilton

01-24-2010 @ 6:00pm

Exactly. And along with the guarantee of the freedom of the press it also guarantees the freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is clearly be infringed upon when a group of citizens is prevented from airing a video or publishing a book critical of a candidate before an election.

by: BlueDeacon

01-24-2010 @ 6:20pm

You'd have to ask the Framers about that -- perhaps they didn't anticipate media becoming corporations. In one of my college courses (I majored in media communications) we actually talked about that.

by: Ballfour

01-31-2010 @ 10:07pm

Wow, Ford, those are really impressive words.

Alas...you are incapable of structuring an actual argument. You create interesting smoke screens, but eventually you have to construct an argument to actually be taken seriously...even if you use rarely-used words...

by: Ballfour

01-31-2010 @ 10:04pm

Ford finished his psuedo-intellectual nonsense with this engaging post...

I will assuage your tedium and rest your condescension. You see my
intellect (which is not in need of proof) is inextricably integrated with
how I feel by my Creator, thankfully, and it has served me well for several
decades, for H*eaven's sake*.

And I thought Vulcans were a figment of Ray Bradbury's imagination... Have
a good life.

by: ford49

01-31-2010 @ 6:17pm

I will assuage your tedium and rest your condescension. You see my
intellect (which is not in need of proof) is inextricably integrated with
how I feel by my Creator, thankfully, and it has served me well for several
decades, for H*eaven's sake*.

And I thought Vulcans were a figment of Ray Bradbury's imagination... Have
a good life.

by: Ballfour

01-31-2010 @ 2:59pm

Well, Ford, if you truly have studied logic and Constitutional law, why are you using neither? For heaven's sake, articulate an actual argument!

You presuppose all people joined in interest groups think the same on every issue in order to create a straw man argument that not everyone in a coporation may not be represented. That's not the case in ANY political group, from unions to pro-choice, to pro-life, to PETA to ANY group. The people in the corporation, however, actually have the right to FIRE the leaders who are making decisions with their money (whereas most other groups don't). Therefore (conclusion coming), I would stat that shareholders have as much or (in many cases) more rights to direct the course of funds than other members because they can affect the wealth of EVERYONE within the corporation (for example, if they sell their shares, the value drops for everyone).

You desire to demonize "big business" still misses the point that the corruption comes not from the money - but rather people willing to be corrupted. If money is removed, the tendency is still there - they will be corrupted by power, fame, sex, whatever.

Now, if you want to prove your intelligence, do something that Maher does NOT do - construct an actual inductive or deductive argument. Your emotion-based responses are tedious. I want to know what you THINK (and how you think) - not what you "feel".

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by: ford49

01-30-2010 @ 9:03pm

Putting your petty condescension aside, I have great difficulty with your
second premise in in your second logic process. While a "corporation" may
be a legal designation for a group of people with similar financial
interests, all people who own stock in a corporation necessarily support all
positions corporate leadership may espouse or decide to support
politically. As such, voices within the corporation can potentially be
subverted. A corporation is *much different* than a grass-roots
organization that in solidarity politically support a candidate or a
specific issue. Your neo-conservative self-indulgence won't accept that I'm
sure.

In parting, I would prefer to be compared to Bill Maher than Dennis Miller,
who, like you has partaken of the neo-con coolaid. And believe it or not
there are a few of us liberals who have studied philosophy, logic, and
consitutional law...and who don't need a thesaurus

by: Ballfour

01-29-2010 @ 12:06pm

Well, Ford, in your psuedo-intellectual, Dennis Miller-like quip, you did NOT ACTUALLY ARTICULATE AN ARGUMENT.

Coporations are a group of people with the same financial interests. Other organizations may have the same political interests. You have not given any reason why either should not be able to pool their resources to buy campaign ads or contribute to a campaign...

Rather than thumbing through your thesaurus to try to sound intelligent, actually articulate an argument. If you need a template: Premise 1, Premise 2, Conclusion. It will look like this:
Premise 1: The Constitution guarantees people the right to political speech.
Premsie 2: The Supreme Court has found that contributing money to a campaign is, in effect, and exercise of that right.
CONCLUSION: People have the right to contribute money to a campaign under the 1st Amendment.

Premise 1: People have a right to contribute money or buy advertising space under the 1st Amendment.
Premise 2: A "corporation" is a legal identifier for a group of people.
CONCLUSION: A corporation has a right to contribute to a campaign or buy and ad.

See how that works?

by: ford49

01-27-2010 @ 6:13pm

What's nonsensical is that you equate a corporation simply as "a group of
people". The corporations that we are talking about, those that can
substantively effect policy with their access and use of large amounts of
capital have far more power than a mere group of people. Your failure to
deal with that reality is ideological flim-flam of the highest Rovian order
and predictable. Corporate speech and individual speech is not the same.
Some of those in corporations may not in fact support the corporate intent
and to openly oppose corporate activity may place them in career jeapordy.
Anyway you cut it it isn't the same.

by: Ballfour

01-27-2010 @ 11:03am

Ford...
1. Your 1 Timothy 6:9-10 reference only serves to boost my point: verse 9 is a forerunner to verse 10 where we see the problem is "The LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil." It is not the money itself, it is those that have placed money on a higher moral plane than integrity. So the problem is not the money - it is the person willing to be bought (which has been my point in my last two posts).

2. The point I believe you are missing is that a "Corporation" is nothing more than a legal distinction for a group of people. A 527 is also a group of people. A union is a group of people. All of these groups have a unified purpose. So why should one have the full right to the 1st Amendment and not the others?

My biggest problem with the Liberal mindest is that it is usually as deep as a bumper-sticker. It rests in a catch phrase without thinking the issue any deeper. With all due respect, the "government for the people and by the people , not by corporations and for corporations" falls into that category. A "corporation" is just a group of people. If you understand that, your sentence becomes nonsensical.

by: ford49

01-26-2010 @ 10:11pm

I refer you to 1 Timothy 6:9-10; in your analogy the money is *far* from
benign. The woman you married would be less inclined to "give it away"
gratis but as Timothy says "those who want to get rich (money and power)
fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires...".
No one is saying that those *in* corporations should have their speech
impinged upon but their use of *corporate assets* to influence legislation
and policy needs some controls as the citizenry often does not have access
to competing funding to similarly bring influence to bare in a timely
manner. Folks in corporations can band together with other citizens but to
use corporate assets for me is the grand rub. Government is supposed to be
"by the people and for the people" not by corporations for corporations.

Thinking of this in purely first amanedment rhetoric obfuscates reality.

by: Ballfour

01-26-2010 @ 7:33pm

You've dodged the issue, Ford!

But let me stick with your "oldest profession" analogy. If you marry a woman and she begins to take money for sex, the problem is NOT "the money", it is her willingness to prostitute herself. It wouldn't really matter WHERE the money came from, would it?

Hold your representatives accountable! JAIL THEM (reference what is happening in the City of Detroit where a Democrat Congressman, John Conyer's, wife, Monica, a Detroit councilwoman, has been jailed).

What you DON'T DO is limit my free speech! Don't tell me that me and a group of my friends can't take out an ad "X" amount of days prior to an election. Don't tell me that just because my friends and I work together we can't pool our resources to make our message heard. Don't tell me if there is a candidate that I support that I can only give a certain amount to that candidate.

by: hammerud

01-26-2010 @ 3:48pm

Who said anything about Republicans? They failed too.

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by: Ballfour

02-01-2010 @ 12:07am

Wow, Ford, those are really impressive words.

Alas...you are incapable of structuring an actual argument. You create interesting smoke screens, but eventually you have to construct an argument to actually be taken seriously...even if you use rarely-used words...

by: Ballfour

02-01-2010 @ 12:04am

Ford finished his psuedo-intellectual nonsense with this engaging post...

I will assuage your tedium and rest your condescension. You see my
intellect (which is not in need of proof) is inextricably integrated with
how I feel by my Creator, thankfully, and it has served me well for several
decades, for H*eaven's sake*.

And I thought Vulcans were a figment of Ray Bradbury's imagination... Have
a good life.

by: jonabark

01-25-2010 @ 11:29pm

This is an absurdity; a "corporation" cannot speak. Only a person can speak.

We are currently allowing the creation of artificial persons who can bribe the representatives of the people. Now they will be able to run candidates, spending their money to install representatives who will favor them in the marketplace and in regards to their ability to externalize costs. This is preparation for the era of resource wars. Mussolini would be very proud of us.

I recommend Chris Hedges new article which elaborates an idea put forth by political philosopher Sheldon Wolin. The idea he discusses is called inverted totalitarianism, in which democracy becomes a useful fiction allowing for the appearance of citizen participation while all real power rests with corporate entities who exercise controlling interest in all important decisions.(http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/25 )

In the NT this is called Babylon, the great whore, who makes the nations drunk with her fornications.

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by: hammerud

01-26-2010 @ 11:01am

Corporations and government are made up of people, and the people who exercise control can use the power of government and corporations to "speak." Government is becoming something that only gives the illusion of citizen participation; although the latest votes sent a message. The elite are trying to grab control and this latest grab attempt was behind the false smoke screen of health care reform. This 2000-plus page legislative monstrosity was about grabbing power, not health care reform, which could have been expressed in five pages of focused legislation. We might as well let the corporations join in the fun. As a culture we have turned our backs against God and truth and we are reaping the consequences. We need Godly leaders who will get back to the idea of limited government; not the clueless, spiritually dead power-grabbing secularists who have no regard for God or the Constitution.

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01-26-2010 @ 3:38pm

Provide an ounce of evidence that government was more limited under republican corporatocracy than under democratic corporatocracy. Name me a republican that reduced total spending for over 4 years. Corporations are designed to maximize profits and externalize costs. to treat them as a political party representing civic interests and invest a nonexistant person with the ability to "speak" is an exercise in self delusion and the murder of self government.

Name me 10 "Godly" leaders. Put flesh on this proposal.

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by: pooch

01-22-2010 @ 1:54pm

I agree with Jim's point that too much money in elections has a corrupting influence, but I also agree with the courts interpretation of the constitution. If this issue has common sense on its side, then it should be no problem for Mr. Wallis to advocate a constitutional ammendment that better defines the rights of corporations and other organizations in this matter.

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by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 1:57pm

Thanks Jim, for this post. I am sick to heart over this SCOTUS ruling. How can we combat it? By a constitutional amendment that says a corporation is not a person? That could take years, and, given this power granted to corporations, could be impossible to attain. It seems we are well down the road to corporate fascism. We were already on that road; now the road is downhill and we are picking up speed.
(Didn't Benito Mussolini, something of an expert on fascism, have some word on corporate fascism?)

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by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:19pm

So what has actually changed? If corporations were running effective issue ads we should be able to read between the lines and figure out who they were endorsing and who they were attacking. I'm not necessarily a fan of corporate money in politics, but again, what has really changed?

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 2:27pm

What has really changed? Now a corporation, say a big insurance company, say a big medical insurance company, can target a senator by name, and can support a friendly candidate by name, with unlimited advertisements. What has really changed? The high court has given its blessing to the idea that a corporation has the same rights as an individual. One person one vote has far less meaning/reality under this ruling.

by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:38pm

What does it matter if candidates are mentioned by name? They are already targeted by virtue of the markets the ads are run in. If an insurance company were to run an ad in Montana, for instance, criticizing government run health care, it doesn't matter whether they mention Baucus by name or not because everyone already knows it. Again, I really don't see that anything has changed.

The notion of one man one vote is the invention of activist judges and did nothing more than turn states over to liberal urban machines. You can make a persuasive policy argument against corporate influence, and I think Wallis did that, but I would challenge anyone to argue that the Constitution permits those restrictions.

by: BlueDeacon

01-22-2010 @ 3:04pm

Such an amendment would have absolutely no chance of passing -- again because the lobbyists would do their best to sabotage it.

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 3:22pm

Do you support one man two votes? What do activist judges have to do with this? What is an activist judge anyway? Were not the five judges being activists when they decided that corporations are the same as individuals? Were not the five judges being activists back in 2000 when they decided the recount should stop?

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by: jesse3

01-22-2010 @ 5:34pm

The issue isn't whether you liked the consequences of the ruling. The issue is whether the ruling was constitutional, and that's a matter of interpretation, which is something difficult to be 'prophetic' about.

Do you not think first amendment free speech issues are at play here? Have you read any of Kennedy's opinion? Do you find it at all sensible or persuasive? There is no reason why the regulations that were in place could have banned newspapers from printing articles critical or in support of certain candidates, since newspapers are owned by corporations.

by: hammerud

01-22-2010 @ 5:48pm

It was pointed out to me that CBS, NBC, ABC etc also are big corporations. Those big corporations are free to influence elections. It is not particularly clear to me why other big corporations should not be allowed to influence elections. The people certainly don't want only liberal corporations to be able to influence elections. I think Massachusetts just showed that not everyone thinks that wisdom resides with government, and the current "powers that be" should not be allowed to place their preferred limits on free speech.

by: duhsciple

01-22-2010 @ 6:17pm

Pardon me while I offer a particularly clueless question, more ditzy than normal:

If corporations have first amendment rights, then may a corporation also be charged with murder, manslaughter, and murder? If convicted by a jury of its peers, may a corporation be sentenced and sent to jail?

Obviously, I am not a lawyer. But I don't understand the logic of "corporation as a person" regardless of the "first amendment rights" issue.

Duh! Scratching my head!

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 6:58pm

Your are right on duh. This ruling treats an artificial legal entity as a person. It is not. I'm not a lawyer either. PTL! But I don't think we have to be lawyers or judges to see this.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: pooch

01-22-2010 @ 1:54pm

I agree with Jim's point that too much money in elections has a corrupting influence, but I also agree with the courts interpretation of the constitution. If this issue has common sense on its side, then it should be no problem for Mr. Wallis to advocate a constitutional ammendment that better defines the rights of corporations and other organizations in this matter.

by: pooch

01-22-2010 @ 1:54pm

I agree with Jim's point that too much money in elections has a corrupting influence, but I also agree with the courts interpretation of the constitution. If this issue has common sense on its side, then it should be no problem for Mr. Wallis to advocate a constitutional ammendment that better defines the rights of corporations and other organizations in this matter.

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 1:57pm

Thanks Jim, for this post. I am sick to heart over this SCOTUS ruling. How can we combat it? By a constitutional amendment that says a corporation is not a person? That could take years, and, given this power granted to corporations, could be impossible to attain. It seems we are well down the road to corporate fascism. We were already on that road; now the road is downhill and we are picking up speed.
(Didn't Benito Mussolini, something of an expert on fascism, have some word on corporate fascism?)

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 1:57pm

Thanks Jim, for this post. I am sick to heart over this SCOTUS ruling. How can we combat it? By a constitutional amendment that says a corporation is not a person? That could take years, and, given this power granted to corporations, could be impossible to attain. It seems we are well down the road to corporate fascism. We were already on that road; now the road is downhill and we are picking up speed.
(Didn't Benito Mussolini, something of an expert on fascism, have some word on corporate fascism?)

by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:19pm

So what has actually changed? If corporations were running effective issue ads we should be able to read between the lines and figure out who they were endorsing and who they were attacking. I'm not necessarily a fan of corporate money in politics, but again, what has really changed?

by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:19pm

So what has actually changed? If corporations were running effective issue ads we should be able to read between the lines and figure out who they were endorsing and who they were attacking. I'm not necessarily a fan of corporate money in politics, but again, what has really changed?

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 2:27pm

What has really changed? Now a corporation, say a big insurance company, say a big medical insurance company, can target a senator by name, and can support a friendly candidate by name, with unlimited advertisements. What has really changed? The high court has given its blessing to the idea that a corporation has the same rights as an individual. One person one vote has far less meaning/reality under this ruling.

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 2:27pm

What has really changed? Now a corporation, say a big insurance company, say a big medical insurance company, can target a senator by name, and can support a friendly candidate by name, with unlimited advertisements. What has really changed? The high court has given its blessing to the idea that a corporation has the same rights as an individual. One person one vote has far less meaning/reality under this ruling.

by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:38pm

What does it matter if candidates are mentioned by name? They are already targeted by virtue of the markets the ads are run in. If an insurance company were to run an ad in Montana, for instance, criticizing government run health care, it doesn't matter whether they mention Baucus by name or not because everyone already knows it. Again, I really don't see that anything has changed.

The notion of one man one vote is the invention of activist judges and did nothing more than turn states over to liberal urban machines. You can make a persuasive policy argument against corporate influence, and I think Wallis did that, but I would challenge anyone to argue that the Constitution permits those restrictions.

by: JacobS

01-22-2010 @ 2:38pm

What does it matter if candidates are mentioned by name? They are already targeted by virtue of the markets the ads are run in. If an insurance company were to run an ad in Montana, for instance, criticizing government run health care, it doesn't matter whether they mention Baucus by name or not because everyone already knows it. Again, I really don't see that anything has changed.

The notion of one man one vote is the invention of activist judges and did nothing more than turn states over to liberal urban machines. You can make a persuasive policy argument against corporate influence, and I think Wallis did that, but I would challenge anyone to argue that the Constitution permits those restrictions.

by: BlueDeacon

01-22-2010 @ 3:04pm

Such an amendment would have absolutely no chance of passing -- again because the lobbyists would do their best to sabotage it.

by: BlueDeacon

01-22-2010 @ 3:04pm

Such an amendment would have absolutely no chance of passing -- again because the lobbyists would do their best to sabotage it.

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 3:22pm

Do you support one man two votes? What do activist judges have to do with this? What is an activist judge anyway? Were not the five judges being activists when they decided that corporations are the same as individuals? Were not the five judges being activists back in 2000 when they decided the recount should stop?

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 3:22pm

Do you support one man two votes? What do activist judges have to do with this? What is an activist judge anyway? Were not the five judges being activists when they decided that corporations are the same as individuals? Were not the five judges being activists back in 2000 when they decided the recount should stop?

by: jesse3

01-22-2010 @ 5:34pm

The issue isn't whether you liked the consequences of the ruling. The issue is whether the ruling was constitutional, and that's a matter of interpretation, which is something difficult to be 'prophetic' about.

Do you not think first amendment free speech issues are at play here? Have you read any of Kennedy's opinion? Do you find it at all sensible or persuasive? There is no reason why the regulations that were in place could have banned newspapers from printing articles critical or in support of certain candidates, since newspapers are owned by corporations.

by: jesse3

01-22-2010 @ 5:34pm

The issue isn't whether you liked the consequences of the ruling. The issue is whether the ruling was constitutional, and that's a matter of interpretation, which is something difficult to be 'prophetic' about.

Do you not think first amendment free speech issues are at play here? Have you read any of Kennedy's opinion? Do you find it at all sensible or persuasive? There is no reason why the regulations that were in place could have banned newspapers from printing articles critical or in support of certain candidates, since newspapers are owned by corporations.

by: hammerud

01-22-2010 @ 5:48pm

It was pointed out to me that CBS, NBC, ABC etc also are big corporations. Those big corporations are free to influence elections. It is not particularly clear to me why other big corporations should not be allowed to influence elections. The people certainly don't want only liberal corporations to be able to influence elections. I think Massachusetts just showed that not everyone thinks that wisdom resides with government, and the current "powers that be" should not be allowed to place their preferred limits on free speech.

by: hammerud

01-22-2010 @ 5:48pm

It was pointed out to me that CBS, NBC, ABC etc also are big corporations. Those big corporations are free to influence elections. It is not particularly clear to me why other big corporations should not be allowed to influence elections. The people certainly don't want only liberal corporations to be able to influence elections. I think Massachusetts just showed that not everyone thinks that wisdom resides with government, and the current "powers that be" should not be allowed to place their preferred limits on free speech.

by: duhsciple

01-22-2010 @ 6:17pm

Pardon me while I offer a particularly clueless question, more ditzy than normal:

If corporations have first amendment rights, then may a corporation also be charged with murder, manslaughter, and murder? If convicted by a jury of its peers, may a corporation be sentenced and sent to jail?

Obviously, I am not a lawyer. But I don't understand the logic of "corporation as a person" regardless of the "first amendment rights" issue.

Duh! Scratching my head!

by: duhsciple

01-22-2010 @ 6:17pm

Pardon me while I offer a particularly clueless question, more ditzy than normal:

If corporations have first amendment rights, then may a corporation also be charged with murder, manslaughter, and murder? If convicted by a jury of its peers, may a corporation be sentenced and sent to jail?

Obviously, I am not a lawyer. But I don't understand the logic of "corporation as a person" regardless of the "first amendment rights" issue.

Duh! Scratching my head!

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 6:58pm

Your are right on duh. This ruling treats an artificial legal entity as a person. It is not. I'm not a lawyer either. PTL! But I don't think we have to be lawyers or judges to see this.

by: ckgmail

01-22-2010 @ 6:58pm

Your are right on duh. This ruling treats an artificial legal entity as a person. It is not. I'm not a lawyer either. PTL! But I don't think we have to be lawyers or judges to see this.

by: duhsciple

01-22-2010 @ 7:11pm

Thanks for the support, and seriously, I am looking for a legal explanation. I'd like to know more about the logic of "corporations as persons."

by: duhsciple

01-22-2010 @ 7:11pm

Thanks for the support, and seriously, I am looking for a legal explanation. I'd like to know more about the logic of "corporations as persons."

by: csack

01-22-2010 @ 8:14pm

why complain? especially when most of the top recipients in congress of wall street money are DEMOCRATS.

according to the huffington post, 11 of the top 15 recipients have a 'D' after their name.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/17/the-15...

by: csack

01-22-2010 @ 8:14pm

why complain? especially when most of the top recipients in congress of wall street money are DEMOCRATS.

according to the huffington post, 11 of the top 15 recipients have a 'D' after their name.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/17/the-15...

by: WaveTossed

01-22-2010 @ 8:23pm

"I am sick to heart over this SCOTUS ruling. How can we combat it? By a constitutional amendment that says a corporation is not a person?"

I'm curious. If a constitutional amendment were passed, stating that a corporation (or PAC or other organization) isn't a "person" as such: there would be an end-around. The corporation, PAC, or other organization would give the money to one (or more) person and then it would be the people giving the contribution. But it would actually be the corporation (or PAC or other group) giving the contribution.

I'm not sure that there truly is an answer other than the hard task of educating ordinary people about the issues.

by: WaveTossed

01-22-2010 @ 8:23pm

"I am sick to heart over this SCOTUS ruling. How can we combat it? By a constitutional amendment that says a corporation is not a person?"

I'm curious. If a constitutional amendment were passed, stating that a corporation (or PAC or other organization) isn't a "person" as such: there would be an end-around. The corporation, PAC, or other organization would give the money to one (or more) person and then it would be the people giving the contribution. But it would actually be the corporation (or PAC or other group) giving the contribution.

I'm not sure that there truly is an answer other than the hard task of educating ordinary people about the issues.

by: BlueDeacon

01-22-2010 @ 8:49pm

It was pointed out to me that CBS, NBC, ABC etc also are big corporations. Those big corporations are free to influence elections.

That's your your opinion, which I think is wrong because not one of these entities actually endorse or work for specific candidates -- nor would they do so.

by: BlueDeacon

01-22-2010 @ 8:49pm

It was pointed out to me that CBS, NBC, ABC etc also are big corporations. Those big corporations are free to influence elections.

That's your your opinion, which I think is wrong because not one of these entities actually endorse or work for specific candidates -- nor would they do so.

by: scat

01-23-2010 @ 12:16am

The idea of a corpopration as a person is a legal fiction that has been debated for over tw centuries. The idea is to treat a corporation which is a group of persons banded together for certain purposes to be treated as a person so it can enter into contracts, sue and be sued, etc. Only recently has there been much of an effort to impose criminal sanctions on corporations by way of convicting the leaders of crimes.
Of course, it is common-senseible that if corporations want "persons" rights they should also bear the same responsiblities. Ir may have theortical symmetry but the problem is that a small number of people end up with most of the wealth and power. The shareholders care only about profits and no one pays much attention to what is going on behind cloesd doors.

by: scat

01-23-2010 @ 12:16am

The idea of a corpopration as a person is a legal fiction that has been debated for over tw centuries. The idea is to treat a corporation which is a group of persons banded together for certain purposes to be treated as a person so it can enter into contracts, sue and be sued, etc. Only recently has there been much of an effort to impose criminal sanctions on corporations by way of convicting the leaders of crimes.
Of course, it is common-senseible that if corporations want "persons" rights they should also bear the same responsiblities. Ir may have theortical symmetry but the problem is that a small number of people end up with most of the wealth and power. The shareholders care only about profits and no one pays much attention to what is going on behind cloesd doors.

by: tomerickson

01-23-2010 @ 2:28am

Where was the outrage when Obama took an end run around the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform that he had promised to follow. We got a president elected with money from sources that the public was not able to follow. We do know that much of it came from community organizations and unions. The ruling served to level the playing field for other types of organizations and unshackled the 1st Amendment. McCain-Feingold has become unconstitutuional.

by: tomerickson

01-23-2010 @ 2:28am

Where was the outrage when Obama took an end run around the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform that he had promised to follow. We got a president elected with money from sources that the public was not able to follow. We do know that much of it came from community organizations and unions. The ruling served to level the playing field for other types of organizations and unshackled the 1st Amendment. McCain-Feingold has become unconstitutuional.

by: eileen5

01-23-2010 @ 2:36am

We need a constitutional amendment declaring that corporations are not persons and don't have free speech or similar civil rights.

Then no corporation should be allowed to engage in political activities unless it is a corporation created for that specific purpose. Labor unions should be limited the same way.

There is nothing wrong with people (citizens) pooling their resources and organizing their activities through the structure of a corporation, but is should be an intentional act.

The CEO's and other leaders of our largest business corporations are using the resources of other people (shareholders) to influence public policy in the ways that they think will be best for the corporation. They may be wrong, but even if they are right about what will make their corporation more profitable, most of the shareholders do not even know what is being done with their money. Many shares are held by mutual funds, retirement funds or blind trusts. For instance, just because one has stock in Exxon doesn't mean that one supports drilling in Anwar.

Making these changes will put the real persons (who have a conscience) back in control.

by: eileen5

01-23-2010 @ 2:36am

We need a constitutional amendment declaring that corporations are not persons and don't have free speech or similar civil rights.

Then no corporation should be allowed to engage in political activities unless it is a corporation created for that specific purpose. Labor unions should be limited the same way.

There is nothing wrong with people (citizens) pooling their resources and organizing their activities through the structure of a corporation, but is should be an intentional act.

The CEO's and other leaders of our largest business corporations are using the resources of other people (shareholders) to influence public policy in the ways that they think will be best for the corporation. They may be wrong, but even if they are right about what will make their corporation more profitable, most of the shareholders do not even know what is being done with their money. Many shares are held by mutual funds, retirement funds or blind trusts. For instance, just because one has stock in Exxon doesn't mean that one supports drilling in Anwar.

Making these changes will put the real persons (who have a conscience) back in control.

by: squeaky

01-23-2010 @ 2:59am

Maybe it's because political party doesn't matter. When the only people who have a voice in this country are those with tons of $$, that should disturb all of us, regardless of political affiliation.

by: squeaky

01-23-2010 @ 2:59am

Maybe it's because political party doesn't matter. When the only people who have a voice in this country are those with tons of $$, that should disturb all of us, regardless of political affiliation.

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:29am

But other media corporations do endorse candidates and suggest people voter certain ways. Should they have had an exemption from the law?

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:29am

But other media corporations do endorse candidates and suggest people voter certain ways. Should they have had an exemption from the law?

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:35am

I'm no lawyer either so this may be imperfect answer... A corporation is a group of people who've formed an association under the law for any number of reasons. It could be a business, a non-profit or a labor union. Those individuals have not surrendered their rights or responsibilities as individuals just because they've pooled their resources. They can still be prosecuted or sued for crimes they've committed in the name of the corporation and they now can still speak out on political matters within 60 days of a general election.

If you look at the specifics of this case it begins to make more sense. I recommend this essay:

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/det...

In it, the author writes about this case:

The details involved an arcane provision of the law, and most observers expected a limited decision that would make little news and not much practical difference in how campaigns are run. But in the course of the ­argument, Justice Samuel Alito interrupted [Deputy Solicitor General] Stewart and inquired: "What's your answer to [the] point that there isn't any constitutional difference between the distribution of this movie on video [on] demand and providing access on the internet, providing DVDs, either through a commercial service or maybe in a public library, [or] providing the same thing in a book? Would the Constitution permit the restriction of all of those as well?" Stewart, an experienced litigator who had represented the government in campaign-finance cases at the Supreme Court before, responded that the provisions of McCain-Feingold could in fact be constitutionally applied to limit all those forms of speech. The law, he ­contended, would even require banning a book that made the same points as the Citizens United video.

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:35am

I'm no lawyer either so this may be imperfect answer... A corporation is a group of people who've formed an association under the law for any number of reasons. It could be a business, a non-profit or a labor union. Those individuals have not surrendered their rights or responsibilities as individuals just because they've pooled their resources. They can still be prosecuted or sued for crimes they've committed in the name of the corporation and they now can still speak out on political matters within 60 days of a general election.

If you look at the specifics of this case it begins to make more sense. I recommend this essay:

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/det...

In it, the author writes about this case:

The details involved an arcane provision of the law, and most observers expected a limited decision that would make little news and not much practical difference in how campaigns are run. But in the course of the ­argument, Justice Samuel Alito interrupted [Deputy Solicitor General] Stewart and inquired: "What's your answer to [the] point that there isn't any constitutional difference between the distribution of this movie on video [on] demand and providing access on the internet, providing DVDs, either through a commercial service or maybe in a public library, [or] providing the same thing in a book? Would the Constitution permit the restriction of all of those as well?" Stewart, an experienced litigator who had represented the government in campaign-finance cases at the Supreme Court before, responded that the provisions of McCain-Feingold could in fact be constitutionally applied to limit all those forms of speech. The law, he ­contended, would even require banning a book that made the same points as the Citizens United video.

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:37am

You're confusing the issue by bringing political contributions into the matter. This ruling doesn't affect direct political contributions to campaigns.

by: SamHamilton

01-23-2010 @ 10:37am

You're confusing the issue by bringing political contributions into the matter. This ruling doesn't affect direct political contributions to campaigns.

by: duhsciple

01-23-2010 @ 12:09pm

Very helpful, thanks!

by: duhsciple

01-23-2010 @ 12:09pm

Very helpful, thanks!

by: duhsciple

01-23-2010 @ 12:10pm

Also very helpful, thanks!

by: duhsciple

01-23-2010 @ 12:10pm

Also very helpful, thanks!

by: BlueDeacon

01-23-2010 @ 4:19pm

I am not aware of any broadcast media that endorse candidates; only newspapers
do that and generally on the editorial page. (The only newspaper I've ever
seen blatantly support a specific candidate on its news pages is -- wait for
it -- the right-wing Republican paper in my city. And it has quite a
history.)

by: BlueDeacon

01-23-2010 @ 4:19pm

I am not aware of any broadcast media that endorse candidates; only newspapers
do that and generally on the editorial page. (The only newspaper I've ever
seen blatantly support a specific candidate on its news pages is -- wait for
it -- the right-wing Republican paper in my city. And it has quite a
history.)