Israeli Peacemakers' Challenge to Americans

The "oppression" extends to the the Palestinian Christians, as well, by proxy.

I propose a miracle, like the miracle after World War II: The Israel develop a Marshall Plan for the Palestinians. Why not? It made Germany our ally!

It has become clear since 48-49, and the years afterward, that not only do the Palestinian Arabs think Israel has no right to exist as a country, but Jewish Israel (and there are no citizens of Israel who are not Jewish, and no Jews, according to Israel, who are not citizens of Israel) does not think that the Palestinians have a right to exist as a country either.

The hatred and persecution of Arabs (read Cananites) by the Jews goes back thousands of years. It has been so since the covenant with God for the "promised land". Likewise, the hatred of the Jes by the Arabs/Cananites goes back just as far because the Jews took their land from them.

Every country took its country from somebody else. It has been so since the beginning of time. When there are survivors of those deprived of their land, they seek revenge, as long as they maintain their cultural identity, in order to regain ther land and hate and revile their conquerors. The Jews have done their share of that through history too.

It seems like the only possible solution is for a third party (NATO, perhaps), to step in and draw the borders (just as falsely as the borders of Iran, Iraq, et.al. in that area of the world, were drawn by the British - the primary cause of all this mess) in a way that is completely unbiased, providing ports-of-entry for both countries and policing the peace with an iron hand until it becomes permanently etched in the minds of the inhabitants.

But, bottom line, I believe there will never be a solution until one or the other is completely subjugated.

Thank you Brian. "Blessed are the peacmalers."

What concessions would those be?

For starters, Israel should stop provoking violence against their own innocent citizens by:

1. ending the use of inhumane ghetto tactics against innocent Palestinians.

2. ending the practice of intimidating Palestinian landowners and seizing Palestinian lands.

3. ending the encroachment of illegal settlements outside of UN established boundaries.

4. dismantling some if not all of the existing illegal settlements.

For an interesting perspective on the Palestinian peace process check out:
http://www.jstreet.org/

J Street is an organization of American Jews promoting the peace process. They're a refreshing change from neoconservative AIPAC, which has had a grip on US middle east policy for decades.

I propose a miracle, like the miracle after World War II: The Israel develop a Marshall Plan for the Palestinians. Why not? It made Germany our ally!

You forgot #5:

5. Give back the Golan Heights so that those who don't recognize Israel's right to exist will have better aim for their rocket attacks.

BMac has a great way of making it sound like the people he talks to represent the majority of Israelies...but the reality is one of the reasons people voted Netanyahu back in is because they are tired of failed land-for-peace strategies.

Brian conflated two sayings of Jesus, the one from Matthew 23:27 which you cited, and Luke 19:41-42, "As he came near and saw the city [Jerusalem], he wept over it, saying, 'If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things tham make for peace.'" Brian's conflation is certainly no distortion of the words of Jesus taken in toto. And before we are too hard on Brian for this conflation, let us remember that Mark ascribed to Isaiah two passages, one from Malachi and one from Isaiah: 'As it is written in the prophet Isaiah, "See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way, the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.'"'

Interesting! "Blessed are the peacemakers..." was the subject text at Neville Chamberlain's funeral. Jeremiah 6:14 may be more appropriate in this discussion.

One thing is always ignored in this discussion.

Let's say Israel gives the Palestinians everything - heck, let's just say that all of Israel up and says "Let's just all emigrate to the United States". No more Israeli state. The Palestinians get all of its land back.

How will things be better for them? There is no reason to think that their government will be any different than the Palestinian authority
(a kleptocracy) led by some thug. Just like all of their neighbors.

I have no problem acknowledging that legitimate grievances exist. Let's just not ignore that the future is grim for the Palestinians, regardless of what path is taken.

Great Insights Brian. This is always such a tricky issue to try and juggle, between security and liberty. However, there can be no doubt that the current Israeli Prime Minister trying to expand Israeli settlements is doing nothing for the peace process. Perhaps, Israel needs to realize what the world community gave them by allowing them to go back to their land in 1948, and not abuse that power and really put the jeapordy of the middle east and therefore western civilization in peril. I think Israelis deserve rights and protection just like any other people; however, they also have to realize the volatile situation they have been put in and govern with caution. Above all, we all need to realize that Jew, Arab, or whatever people group-we are equally human and therefore, worthy of dignity.

I agree with B mclauren that there are many voices and legitimate issues that need to be listened to. How can security and peace be increased for all without many parties feeling their legitimate concerns are being recognized and struggled with.

What do you think the nation of Israel, established under UN Charter, would look like today without the longstanding unequivocal backup of the United States and without the intervention of the United States against Nazi Germany?

I'm just asking; and just note that the enemies of Israel amount to more than a few thousand, or million, Palestinians who have endured much injustice at the hands of Israel and surrounding Arab states.

The state-owned land that most of the settlements occupy was owned by the Arab governments, not private individuals, who controlled the land before the Israeli victory. The were like state-owned land in the US, parks, reserves, national forests, etc.

I don't agree with a whole lot of what the Israelis are doing. My point was that they have tried what you suggested before and got nothing but more terrorism in return. For example, in return for leaving Gaza, the Palestinian people voted in Hamas as their government, thereby sending a message to Israel that nothing the Israelis did would ever bring peace.

I struggle with the idea of religious states in general, and the exceptions we grant Israel, in particular. In order to establish and maintain the Jewish State, the previous inhabitants of the land had their property confiscated and were forced out. The minority religious groups - Islam and Christian - are denied full participation in governing and have no meaningful voice - there will never be a Christian or Muslim Israeli Prime Minister. There is a structural, deliberate maintenance of a permanent (non-Jewish) "second class".

Those who were so horribly oppressed throughout history have become the horrible oppressors in their own land. Those who argued so eloquently for the permanent establishment of their own place in the world deny that same right to place to the Palestinians they displaced. I wonder how different things could have been if, instead of demanding a Jewish State that required displacement and destruction of the Palestinian inhabitants already there, a secular State accommodating and guaranteeing the equal rights of both (all three) had been established, but it's too late for that.

The Israelis, backed by the United States, hold all the power and all the chips. The hope for the establishment and existence of a Palestinian State is in Israel's control. Israel continues confiscating Palestinian land. Israel continues maintaining a permanent second-class citizenship for its Palestinian citizens. Israel refuses to share Jerusalem to accommodate the Palestinian peoples' desire to locate their Capitol in the portion of the city that is holy to THEM, too.

I think it's time we in the US took a serious and prayerful look at how (NOT whether!) we support Israel, and subject that support to the same conditions we apply to our support in other nations. A great part of our problem in the Muslim world is that we are seen as favoring Israel always over Muslim interests, even when Israel is in the wrong. We ought not to be supporting oppression, no matter who is engaging in it.

Likewise.

Very true. Of course, an interesting twist to your scenario would be that the kleptocrats would no longer have an Israeli bogeyman to blame for all the problems. Ultimately, the Palestinians just like everyone else have to be able to stand on their own. But yes, the Israelis can help by coming up with a fair, equitable settlement. At the same time, the militancy by both sides certainly isn't helping things.

What concessions would those be?

For starters, Israel should stop provoking violence against their own innocent citizens by:

1. ending the use of inhumane ghetto tactics against innocent Palestinians.

2. ending the practice of intimidating Palestinian landowners and seizing Palestinian lands.

3. ending the encroachment of illegal settlements outside of UN established boundaries.

4. dismantling some if not all of the existing illegal settlements.

For an interesting perspective on the Palestinian peace process check out:
http://www.jstreet.org/

J Street is an organization of American Jews promoting the peace process. They're a refreshing change from neoconservative AIPAC, which has had a grip on US middle east policy for decades.

as for your responses to #1, #3, and #4, I have very little to say. Brian McLaren addresses this somewhat in his article above. No one is saying that the peace process is going to be easy: but oppression is NEVER justified. To oppress the majority of peaceful Palestinians because of the violent, reactionary actions of the few will only breed contempt and hatred. Countries built on oppression always reap the harvest of oppression: more violence and hatred.

But as for #2, that is completely incorrect. A friend of mine visited At-Tuwani, a small Palestinian village outside of an illegal Israeli settlement with CPT, a Christian peace organization. There Israeli settlers have harassed and endangered Palestinian children on their way to school to such a degree that the Israeli army has been required to offer them escort (a duty that the local army often neglects to the danger of the children). Orders are regularly issued by the Israeli police forces to bulldoze homes - forcing people into homelessness. In some cases, the Israeli army itself has harassed and intimidated shepherds and farmers. If any kind of physical confrontation has occurred, regardless of who was involved, only Palestinians are charged and arrested, even if it was incited by Israeli settlers. All of this comes from reports of CPT peacemakers living in At-Tuwani specifically for the purpose of bringing international presence to these regular violations. http://www.cpt.org/work/palestine

You might ask why these people continue to live in such a hostile environment? Why, if they are clearly in danger, they continue to live on their land and farm as their families did before them? Why not just move on? Consider that the lot of Palestinians across the nation, due to the wall, makes it difficult for Palestinians to travel anywhere and even harder to find work. In other countries, the refugee camps are often in deplorable condition, and work is no easier found.

I don't know what exactly you mean when you refer to "state-owned land" but perhaps it is land that Israeli government seized in some other conflict, only by forcibly removing the inhabitants... (check out Elias Chacour's book Blood Brothers, for info on that). Officially, the Israeli army is present in the areas of illegal settlements for the purpose of protecting the local Palestinian population - but practically they actually protect the interests of the illegal settlers. It is an example of how little interest the state of Israel has in submitting to UN lead peace processes.

We all saw the videos a few years back of the Israeli settlers forcibly removed from their homes. It was hard to watch. But the outrage of the people there was deeper than being removed from their homes: they were first told by the government that it was necessary to the existence of an Israeli state to move there and eventually to turn the area into an Israeli instead of a Palestinian zone. Then, without ever changing the voice of propaganda, the government took the same soldiers who for so long had protected the interests of the settlers and removed them. I remember seeing one mother break down in tears as she described all the children she had lost fighting to try to claim the land that was never theirs to take.

What we saw that day, and what CPT sees in At-Tuwani daily, is that the Israeli settlers are not there to live out their lives peacefully. That is not why they went there, and that is not why they stay.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matthew 23:27

Don't recall Jesus saying...

As McLaren states:

Jesus' words came to mind often yesterday as we walked down the Mount of Olives: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem! If only you knew what makes for peace

Yes. Exactly. I will never understand why so many Christians don't take His words seriously.

A noble attempt, but sorry, we're not buying it!

Alternatively...we could take Jesus at His Word. Wonder what might happen if we did, and also took Eph 6:12 seriously?

I agree with B mclauren that there are many voices and legitimate issues that need to be listened to. How can security and peace be increased for all without many parties feeling their legitimate concerns are being recognized and struggled with.

What do you think the nation of Israel, established under UN Charter, would look like today without the longstanding unequivocal backup of the United States and without the intervention of the United States against Nazi Germany?

I'm just asking; and just note that the enemies of Israel amount to more than a few thousand, or million, Palestinians who have endured much injustice at the hands of Israel and surrounding Arab states.

The state-owned land that most of the settlements occupy was owned by the Arab governments, not private individuals, who controlled the land before the Israeli victory. The were like state-owned land in the US, parks, reserves, national forests, etc.

I don't agree with a whole lot of what the Israelis are doing. My point was that they have tried what you suggested before and got nothing but more terrorism in return. For example, in return for leaving Gaza, the Palestinian people voted in Hamas as their government, thereby sending a message to Israel that nothing the Israelis did would ever bring peace.