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The Global Grassroots Struggle Against Corporate and Government Corruption

As described in the February issue of Sojourners magazine, activists worldwide are joining together to demand corporate transparency that will help make the world unsafe for kleptocracy; here, activist Rev. Alexa Smith offers a report from inside the movement:

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"Publish what you pay" is the overwhelming demand being made -- at great personal risk -- by anti-corruption activists worldwide. In nations where millions, if not billions, of dollars are paid by oil, gas, and mining industries for the rights to dig, drill, or dredge, all too often these payments prop up governments where corruption runs rampant, and where officials find it easier to trample on the human rights of transparency activists, silencing anyone who raises a question, than to repent of or alter their own entrenched greed.

Imagine how Africa alone might benefit if all the money currently siphoned off into the pockets of corrupt or incompetent officials might be clearly stated in the national budget, so that civil society could demand that those dollars be accounted for and used for schools, hospitals, infrastructure, and other humane efforts. Many African activists are imagining just that -- and, all too often, facing persecution for it.

Last year alone in Africa, to my knowledge, six transparency activists were arrested and falsely charged with high-penalty (and often trumped-up) crimes for raising questions. Marc Ona, Georges Mpaga and Gregory Mintsa were arrested in Gabon; two journalists, Leona Dieudonne Koungou and Gaston Asseko, were also arrested there. In Niger, Marou Amadou and Wada Maman were arrested. And in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Golden Misabiko has been sentenced to one year in prison, with eight months of probation (he is currently in South Africa receiving medical treatment, and his case is under appeal).

Some of the men were jailed in difficult conditions, despite medical troubles. Ona is wheelchair-bound. Legal processes are rife with abuses -- from arrest without a warrant and denial of due process to poor conditions within prison and ongoing harassment before and after release. Amadou was forcibly picked up by police just hours after a court ordered his release.

But a bill in the U.S. Congress this year might tilt the tables in favor of those activists by making public the knowledge that will help give them the power for social change. The Energy Security Through Transparency Act is currently in the U.S. Senate and awaiting introduction into the House. Senate sponsors Dick Lugar (R-IN) and Benjamin Cardin (D-MD) were joined by Senators Chuck Schumer (D-NY), Roger Wicker (R-MS), and Russ Feingold (D-WI). The bill would require transparent financial reporting (i.e., publishing what they pay to foreign governments for the rights to mine or dredge) for all companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange.

The church believes that this is the is the most efficient way to reverse the abuses that accompany natural resource wealth, reduce poverty, and end repeated violations of human rights linked to resource extraction and corruption. And given the last year on Wall Street, it is hard to argue against transparency in corporate processes.

In addition to the ESTT Act, international pressure is essential to save people's lives and to carefully monitor the allegations leveled in legal actions. We are grateful beyond words for those who are already speaking up, and urge others to join them.

Rev. Dr. Alexa Smith works at the Presbyterian Church (USA), a member of the Publish What You Pay Coalition.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: Patricia

02-05-2010 @ 1:56am

The amount of foreign aid we provide countries is miniscule when compared to the amount of money corporations "invest". The total amount of foreign aid we provide to the entire world is less than 2% of the Federal Budget. And that money is divvied up between hundreds of nations. It's a pittance - especially compared to the corporate sums given only to the governments of nations possessing the natural resources they're after.

by: Ngchen

02-03-2010 @ 7:13pm

Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption. But with that being noted, requiring disclosure can make it more difficult for the corrupt to operate; after all, it's presumably a criminal offense to submit a false disclosure form. Corruption tends to fear the light, at least until people reach a point where they give up.

There is no contradiction between simultaneously working for BOTH clean government AND the gospel. Let's not become the party of "no," shall we, where any proposed change or reform is reflexively rejected, while no alternatives are offered.

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by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 7:40pm

This is an interesting law in that it has been illegal for US corps to pay bribes to foreign governments for about 30 years. I don't see how this will change anything.

by: ckgmail

02-05-2010 @ 5:37pm

On what specific text(s) or context(s) in the Bible do you base your statement about justice as defined in the Bible. I have studied the Old Testament extensively and know that the Hebrew word for justice is "mishpat" (as closely as I can transliterate into English). The Hebrew root is sh-p-t. In Hebrew poetry mishpat is frequently used in synonymous parallelism with "tsedek" (masc.). or "tsedekah" (fem.) (ditto on the transliteration), which is usually translated as righteousness. "ts-d-k" (ditto again for the transliteration) is the root verb for tsedek. It has the concept of making right, true, just (see Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament). Biblical justice or righteousness cannot be defined in a sentence or even a paragraph. One could do a doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew words jor justice and righteousness, and still not have a complete understanding of the concepts. The concept of making right, IMHO, is primarily restorative.

And I do believe that capitalism as currently practiced is often in conflict with biblical justice and righteousness. I would say the same for socialism. I think that you have elsewhere on this blog stated that there is a continuum between capitalism and socialism. (Maybe it was someone else). At any rate, I agree regarding the continuum. The dispute, IMHO, regards where our economic system should be on that continuum. You and I probably disagree on that point. And both of us could probably find biblical backing for our positions.

When I did my doctoral dissertation many years ago, I had to back up my conclusions with evidence. Sometimes my professors disagreed with my interpretations. Sometimes not. They allowed me the freedom to come to those conclusions. That's the kind of process I would like to see on the Sojo blogs and in the comments on those blogs.

Respectfully, Rev. Dr. Charles Kiker

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by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 2:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 12:22pm

Yes, but what you should be comparing is total foreign aid with total bribes.

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by: ford49

02-04-2010 @ 4:31am

I agree with Patricia. For some reason you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that unfettered free market economics can conflict with the interests of the Gospel, especially the call to do justice. This legislation challenges corruption, and while not perfect, it is better to decide to shine some light than to throw up your hands and just acquiesce to the current reality. Per Harvey Cox, "To not decide is to decide".

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by: jurisnaturalist

02-04-2010 @ 6:55am

The idea here is to get corporations to publish what they pay to governments for the privilege of extracting natural resources. I wonder why the onus is on the corporation and not on the receiving government? Suppose the US government refuse aid to governments who don't report?
But it appears we believe corporations would be easier to cajole into revealing information. Maybe so.
How should corporate expenditures be judged? Suppose BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 million a year to dig up coal. Is that too much? Too little? Should they be compelled not to pay at all? If the latter is the case, then Corporations outside the new rule will move in buy from BadDictatorGov instead. The citizens of BadDictatoria could be even worse off.
The move is an attack on the corporation cloaked in a civil rights case for publicity.

by: NC77

02-04-2010 @ 11:52am

Energy companies that are publicly owned and listed on any U.S. stock exchange already publish their financial information on a quarterly basis when they announce earnigs. All companies also do an annual report for the shareholders. This information is available to the pubic whether one is a sharholder or not.

Nevertheless, thanks for bringing the problem to our attention. I want to look into that Energy Security Through Transparency Act when I have some time because the title of the bill sounds onerous. "Security through Transparency" ?

I think fundamentalist hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

"A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel."

I agree. It is the removal of government corruption that will heal those African states weatlhy in natural resources.

A better solution would be to seek honestly and transparency of African state governments. Once that has happened (and that's a huge task that requries a total spiritual transformation in the hearts of all citizens in those countries), then I envision a profit sharing program for those states where the government dispurses the wealth created by natural resources to the people of the state. In the U.S., Alaska has a program that dispurses money to its citizens from the income it realizes from energy (oil and gas). It is ony a few thousand dollars a year per person or family, but for some of the natives in the arctic region who just subsist off the land, it is a signifcant windfall.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 12:05pm

I don't believe in an unfettered free market. Capitalists have always insisted on the rule of law and prohibitions of theft and fraud. And I don't see any conflict with the Gosepl, justice (as defined in the Bible) and free markets under the rule of law. If you will point out a conflict that you see, I would be happy to consider it. And I don't oppose the bill. I'm just pointing out that it will not achieve what proponents claim it will.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 1:37pm

This law would provide clear information to the public that they can use to make their decisions about whether or not to purchase the products of BadOil Co. If information is readily available, citizens can make up their own minds about whether it's too much or too little, especially if they get a chance to compare the prices BadOil is paying to different countries.

If BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 milliion per year to dig up coal, but because BadDictatorGov is corrupt the citizens of BadDictatoria have no idea how much money their government is actually taking in, the citizens of BadDictatoria are lacking the information they need to battle corruption that may be taking place. With today's technology, it would be very easy for them to find the figures they need, if the US required the figures to be reported.

This law would primarily apply to energy (oil) corporations, who receive significant subsidies from the American People (so we don't have to pay for our gas up front at the pump so we don't know how much it really costs us so we don't worry too much about cutting back so the oil corporations can continue to sell). Corporations who take money from the public coffers should be expected to be transparent about how they're spending "our" money.

I think the answer would be to expand the proposed legislation to require ANY corporation selling ANYTHING to Americans (we are one of the largest consumer markets in the world) to divulge this information. My guess would be that rather than losing the huge market we provide, they'd 'fess up :).

Corporations have no special right to smoke and mirrors, as far as I can tell.

And I have a problem with what sounds like a "let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if we don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)" arguments against corporate transparency. Not quite the Gospel Jesus Christ was calling us to, in my Book :).

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by: ckgmail

02-04-2010 @ 2:57pm

How is justice defined in the Bible? Is it retributive, restorative, both, or something else altogether?

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 3:01pm

"The church believes that this is the is the most efficient way to reverse the abuses that accompany natural resource wealth, reduce poverty, and end repeated violations of human rights linked to resource extraction and corruption."

That expectation is sad because it betrays a lack of knowledge about how the world works, especially corrupt dictators. The US passed a law back in the 1970's making it illegal for US corporations to pay bribes in exchange for business. Those companies that complied simply lost business to corporations in Europe and elsewhere that have no problems with paying bribes. Corrupt dictators who wanted to continue doing business with American corps simply hid the bribes in other accounts. That's all that will happen if the current law passes. The Enron scandal should have convinced people that accounting is flexible enough to hide whatever you want to hide.

Bribery is not considered wrong in most cultures in the world. In fact, most cultures expect it. Bribery was the norm in Europe until roughly the 1800's. Traditionally, people go into government service for the sole purpose of receiving bribes and skimming money from the treasury. The activists who protest bribery are a tiny, tiny western-educated minority.

A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:37pm

It is both, but mostly it focuses on the process, not the outcome. Western jurisprudence is based on the Bible concept of justice being a process; if the process if fair then the outcome is just. Progressives have changed the meaning of justice to refer to outcomes. Only if the outcomes are what progressives want them to be are they considered just. The definition of justice is one of the main issues dividing progressives and consertives.

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:12pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:13pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:43pm

What subsidies do oil companies get?

"let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if our corporations don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)"

That's a very distorted characterization of my posts. I couldn't care less if the bill passes or not. At least it keeps Congressmen busy so they're not causing greater harm somewhere else. I am merely pointing out that it will no do what you think it will do.

Besides, why do you want to impose your own morality on other people? You'll find very few people in Africa who think bribes are immoral.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 12:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 4:27pm

What do you mean by the "Gospel?" I mean by it the message that Jesus is God and that his death and resurrection make us children of God if we accept the gift of salvation through faith.
The Gospel transforms lives so that people can understand that bribery and corruption are immoral. We need to do a better job of preaching the Gospel. Culture won't change without people accepting the Gospel.

As for action of any kind, it needs to be done with knowledge as well as emotion. The legislation being offered will make a lot of people feel like they have done something when in fact they haven't accomplished anything at all.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 5:03pm

Some links, so this isn't too long:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0118/p01s01-usec.... outlines subsidies given by the government to oil and gas corporations.

http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf (warning - 38 pages!) more detailed information

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/78... (outlines the current proposed cuts and the corporate pushback)

Peter Orzag's testimony RE oil/gas subsidies in FY 10 Federal budget:

Closing tax loopholes for oil and gas companies. The Budget proposes the elimination, starting in 2011, of an array of tax advantages for domestic oil and gas producers. Although the Administration supports the responsible production of oil and natural gas as part of a comprehensive energy strategy, excessive government subsidies distort market signals and slow the transition of the economy from fossil fuels to clean, renewable sources of energy. (To take just one example, the Administration proposes to repeal the expensing of intangible drilling costs such as labor, chemicals, and grease. Under the existing provision, if $80,000 of a $100,000 investment in an oil well were spent on intangible drilling costs, that $80,000 could be immediately written off by a producer, rather than amortized over the life of the asset, as would be the rule for the costs of labor and materials used to build a factory, for example.)

And, you know I am not speaking about imposing our own "morality" on other people - I am speaking about operating within the confines of the "morality" we profess to adhere to - even when others do not have the same beliefs. If you can show me where in the Bible God, Jesus, or any of the Prophets advocate conducting business in opposition to the laws outlined by God when dealing with nonbelievers, I would greatly appreciate it.

by: Ngchen

02-03-2010 @ 7:13pm

Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption. But with that being noted, requiring disclosure can make it more difficult for the corrupt to operate; after all, it's presumably a criminal offense to submit a false disclosure form. Corruption tends to fear the light, at least until people reach a point where they give up.

There is no contradiction between simultaneously working for BOTH clean government AND the gospel. Let's not become the party of "no," shall we, where any proposed change or reform is reflexively rejected, while no alternatives are offered.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 7:40pm

This is an interesting law in that it has been illegal for US corps to pay bribes to foreign governments for about 30 years. I don't see how this will change anything.

by: ckgmail

02-05-2010 @ 5:37pm

On what specific text(s) or context(s) in the Bible do you base your statement about justice as defined in the Bible. I have studied the Old Testament extensively and know that the Hebrew word for justice is "mishpat" (as closely as I can transliterate into English). The Hebrew root is sh-p-t. In Hebrew poetry mishpat is frequently used in synonymous parallelism with "tsedek" (masc.). or "tsedekah" (fem.) (ditto on the transliteration), which is usually translated as righteousness. "ts-d-k" (ditto again for the transliteration) is the root verb for tsedek. It has the concept of making right, true, just (see Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament). Biblical justice or righteousness cannot be defined in a sentence or even a paragraph. One could do a doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew words jor justice and righteousness, and still not have a complete understanding of the concepts. The concept of making right, IMHO, is primarily restorative.

And I do believe that capitalism as currently practiced is often in conflict with biblical justice and righteousness. I would say the same for socialism. I think that you have elsewhere on this blog stated that there is a continuum between capitalism and socialism. (Maybe it was someone else). At any rate, I agree regarding the continuum. The dispute, IMHO, regards where our economic system should be on that continuum. You and I probably disagree on that point. And both of us could probably find biblical backing for our positions.

When I did my doctoral dissertation many years ago, I had to back up my conclusions with evidence. Sometimes my professors disagreed with my interpretations. Sometimes not. They allowed me the freedom to come to those conclusions. That's the kind of process I would like to see on the Sojo blogs and in the comments on those blogs.

Respectfully, Rev. Dr. Charles Kiker

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by: ford49

02-04-2010 @ 4:31am

I agree with Patricia. For some reason you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that unfettered free market economics can conflict with the interests of the Gospel, especially the call to do justice. This legislation challenges corruption, and while not perfect, it is better to decide to shine some light than to throw up your hands and just acquiesce to the current reality. Per Harvey Cox, "To not decide is to decide".

by: jurisnaturalist

02-04-2010 @ 6:55am

The idea here is to get corporations to publish what they pay to governments for the privilege of extracting natural resources. I wonder why the onus is on the corporation and not on the receiving government? Suppose the US government refuse aid to governments who don't report?
But it appears we believe corporations would be easier to cajole into revealing information. Maybe so.
How should corporate expenditures be judged? Suppose BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 million a year to dig up coal. Is that too much? Too little? Should they be compelled not to pay at all? If the latter is the case, then Corporations outside the new rule will move in buy from BadDictatorGov instead. The citizens of BadDictatoria could be even worse off.
The move is an attack on the corporation cloaked in a civil rights case for publicity.

by: NC77

02-04-2010 @ 11:52am

Energy companies that are publicly owned and listed on any U.S. stock exchange already publish their financial information on a quarterly basis when they announce earnigs. All companies also do an annual report for the shareholders. This information is available to the pubic whether one is a sharholder or not.

Nevertheless, thanks for bringing the problem to our attention. I want to look into that Energy Security Through Transparency Act when I have some time because the title of the bill sounds onerous. "Security through Transparency" ?

I think fundamentalist hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

"A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel."

I agree. It is the removal of government corruption that will heal those African states weatlhy in natural resources.

A better solution would be to seek honestly and transparency of African state governments. Once that has happened (and that's a huge task that requries a total spiritual transformation in the hearts of all citizens in those countries), then I envision a profit sharing program for those states where the government dispurses the wealth created by natural resources to the people of the state. In the U.S., Alaska has a program that dispurses money to its citizens from the income it realizes from energy (oil and gas). It is ony a few thousand dollars a year per person or family, but for some of the natives in the arctic region who just subsist off the land, it is a signifcant windfall.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 12:05pm

I don't believe in an unfettered free market. Capitalists have always insisted on the rule of law and prohibitions of theft and fraud. And I don't see any conflict with the Gosepl, justice (as defined in the Bible) and free markets under the rule of law. If you will point out a conflict that you see, I would be happy to consider it. And I don't oppose the bill. I'm just pointing out that it will not achieve what proponents claim it will.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 1:37pm

This law would provide clear information to the public that they can use to make their decisions about whether or not to purchase the products of BadOil Co. If information is readily available, citizens can make up their own minds about whether it's too much or too little, especially if they get a chance to compare the prices BadOil is paying to different countries.

If BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 milliion per year to dig up coal, but because BadDictatorGov is corrupt the citizens of BadDictatoria have no idea how much money their government is actually taking in, the citizens of BadDictatoria are lacking the information they need to battle corruption that may be taking place. With today's technology, it would be very easy for them to find the figures they need, if the US required the figures to be reported.

This law would primarily apply to energy (oil) corporations, who receive significant subsidies from the American People (so we don't have to pay for our gas up front at the pump so we don't know how much it really costs us so we don't worry too much about cutting back so the oil corporations can continue to sell). Corporations who take money from the public coffers should be expected to be transparent about how they're spending "our" money.

I think the answer would be to expand the proposed legislation to require ANY corporation selling ANYTHING to Americans (we are one of the largest consumer markets in the world) to divulge this information. My guess would be that rather than losing the huge market we provide, they'd 'fess up :).

Corporations have no special right to smoke and mirrors, as far as I can tell.

And I have a problem with what sounds like a "let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if we don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)" arguments against corporate transparency. Not quite the Gospel Jesus Christ was calling us to, in my Book :).

by: ckgmail

02-04-2010 @ 2:57pm

How is justice defined in the Bible? Is it retributive, restorative, both, or something else altogether?

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:37pm

It is both, but mostly it focuses on the process, not the outcome. Western jurisprudence is based on the Bible concept of justice being a process; if the process if fair then the outcome is just. Progressives have changed the meaning of justice to refer to outcomes. Only if the outcomes are what progressives want them to be are they considered just. The definition of justice is one of the main issues dividing progressives and consertives.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:43pm

What subsidies do oil companies get?

"let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if our corporations don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)"

That's a very distorted characterization of my posts. I couldn't care less if the bill passes or not. At least it keeps Congressmen busy so they're not causing greater harm somewhere else. I am merely pointing out that it will no do what you think it will do.

Besides, why do you want to impose your own morality on other people? You'll find very few people in Africa who think bribes are immoral.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 2:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 12:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

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by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 5:03pm

Some links, so this isn't too long:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0118/p01s01-usec.... outlines subsidies given by the government to oil and gas corporations.

http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf (warning - 38 pages!) more detailed information

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/78... (outlines the current proposed cuts and the corporate pushback)

Peter Orzag's testimony RE oil/gas subsidies in FY 10 Federal budget:

Closing tax loopholes for oil and gas companies. The Budget proposes the elimination, starting in 2011, of an array of tax advantages for domestic oil and gas producers. Although the Administration supports the responsible production of oil and natural gas as part of a comprehensive energy strategy, excessive government subsidies distort market signals and slow the transition of the economy from fossil fuels to clean, renewable sources of energy. (To take just one example, the Administration proposes to repeal the expensing of intangible drilling costs such as labor, chemicals, and grease. Under the existing provision, if $80,000 of a $100,000 investment in an oil well were spent on intangible drilling costs, that $80,000 could be immediately written off by a producer, rather than amortized over the life of the asset, as would be the rule for the costs of labor and materials used to build a factory, for example.)

And, you know I am not speaking about imposing our own "morality" on other people - I am speaking about operating within the confines of the "morality" we profess to adhere to - even when others do not have the same beliefs. If you can show me where in the Bible God, Jesus, or any of the Prophets advocate conducting business in opposition to the laws outlined by God when dealing with nonbelievers, I would greatly appreciate it.

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by: John Mulholland

02-04-2010 @ 11:58pm

"Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption."

I thought everyone was totally corrupt, hence the need for atonement.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 1:37am

"...all too often these payments prop up governments where corruption runs rampant, and where officials find it easier to trample on the human rights of transparency activists..."

If we really want to stop the flow of American money that props up dictators, we'll end all foreign aid. Nothing keeps murderous dictators in power longer than government to government aid.

by: Patricia

02-05-2010 @ 1:56am

The amount of foreign aid we provide countries is miniscule when compared to the amount of money corporations "invest". The total amount of foreign aid we provide to the entire world is less than 2% of the Federal Budget. And that money is divvied up between hundreds of nations. It's a pittance - especially compared to the corporate sums given only to the governments of nations possessing the natural resources they're after.

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by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 12:22pm

Yes, but what you should be comparing is total foreign aid with total bribes.

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by: John Mulholland

02-04-2010 @ 11:58pm

"Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption."

I thought everyone was totally corrupt, hence the need for atonement.

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by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 3:01pm

"The church believes that this is the is the most efficient way to reverse the abuses that accompany natural resource wealth, reduce poverty, and end repeated violations of human rights linked to resource extraction and corruption."

That expectation is sad because it betrays a lack of knowledge about how the world works, especially corrupt dictators. The US passed a law back in the 1970's making it illegal for US corporations to pay bribes in exchange for business. Those companies that complied simply lost business to corporations in Europe and elsewhere that have no problems with paying bribes. Corrupt dictators who wanted to continue doing business with American corps simply hid the bribes in other accounts. That's all that will happen if the current law passes. The Enron scandal should have convinced people that accounting is flexible enough to hide whatever you want to hide.

Bribery is not considered wrong in most cultures in the world. In fact, most cultures expect it. Bribery was the norm in Europe until roughly the 1800's. Traditionally, people go into government service for the sole purpose of receiving bribes and skimming money from the treasury. The activists who protest bribery are a tiny, tiny western-educated minority.

A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 3:01pm

"The church believes that this is the is the most efficient way to reverse the abuses that accompany natural resource wealth, reduce poverty, and end repeated violations of human rights linked to resource extraction and corruption."

That expectation is sad because it betrays a lack of knowledge about how the world works, especially corrupt dictators. The US passed a law back in the 1970's making it illegal for US corporations to pay bribes in exchange for business. Those companies that complied simply lost business to corporations in Europe and elsewhere that have no problems with paying bribes. Corrupt dictators who wanted to continue doing business with American corps simply hid the bribes in other accounts. That's all that will happen if the current law passes. The Enron scandal should have convinced people that accounting is flexible enough to hide whatever you want to hide.

Bribery is not considered wrong in most cultures in the world. In fact, most cultures expect it. Bribery was the norm in Europe until roughly the 1800's. Traditionally, people go into government service for the sole purpose of receiving bribes and skimming money from the treasury. The activists who protest bribery are a tiny, tiny western-educated minority.

A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel.

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:12pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:12pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:13pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: Patricia

02-03-2010 @ 4:13pm

It's so strange to me that on one hand, whenever there is dissonance between the Gospel and corporate/market interests, you always come down in favor of market interests - this case is a perfect example - but on the other, you insist that the power of the Gospel is the only thing that can cause transformation. It is the power of the Gospel that is exhorting us to work for transformation in this world, and it is the power of the Gospel that demands we call governments, corporations, and market mechanisms (among others) to do justice. The power of the Gospel calls us to act!

My question is, do you WANT the power of the Gospel to transform, or are you AFRAID that it will?

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 4:27pm

What do you mean by the "Gospel?" I mean by it the message that Jesus is God and that his death and resurrection make us children of God if we accept the gift of salvation through faith.
The Gospel transforms lives so that people can understand that bribery and corruption are immoral. We need to do a better job of preaching the Gospel. Culture won't change without people accepting the Gospel.

As for action of any kind, it needs to be done with knowledge as well as emotion. The legislation being offered will make a lot of people feel like they have done something when in fact they haven't accomplished anything at all.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 4:27pm

What do you mean by the "Gospel?" I mean by it the message that Jesus is God and that his death and resurrection make us children of God if we accept the gift of salvation through faith.
The Gospel transforms lives so that people can understand that bribery and corruption are immoral. We need to do a better job of preaching the Gospel. Culture won't change without people accepting the Gospel.

As for action of any kind, it needs to be done with knowledge as well as emotion. The legislation being offered will make a lot of people feel like they have done something when in fact they haven't accomplished anything at all.

by: Ngchen

02-03-2010 @ 7:13pm

Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption. But with that being noted, requiring disclosure can make it more difficult for the corrupt to operate; after all, it's presumably a criminal offense to submit a false disclosure form. Corruption tends to fear the light, at least until people reach a point where they give up.

There is no contradiction between simultaneously working for BOTH clean government AND the gospel. Let's not become the party of "no," shall we, where any proposed change or reform is reflexively rejected, while no alternatives are offered.

by: Ngchen

02-03-2010 @ 7:13pm

Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption. But with that being noted, requiring disclosure can make it more difficult for the corrupt to operate; after all, it's presumably a criminal offense to submit a false disclosure form. Corruption tends to fear the light, at least until people reach a point where they give up.

There is no contradiction between simultaneously working for BOTH clean government AND the gospel. Let's not become the party of "no," shall we, where any proposed change or reform is reflexively rejected, while no alternatives are offered.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 7:40pm

This is an interesting law in that it has been illegal for US corps to pay bribes to foreign governments for about 30 years. I don't see how this will change anything.

by: fundamentalist

02-03-2010 @ 7:40pm

This is an interesting law in that it has been illegal for US corps to pay bribes to foreign governments for about 30 years. I don't see how this will change anything.

by: ford49

02-04-2010 @ 4:31am

I agree with Patricia. For some reason you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that unfettered free market economics can conflict with the interests of the Gospel, especially the call to do justice. This legislation challenges corruption, and while not perfect, it is better to decide to shine some light than to throw up your hands and just acquiesce to the current reality. Per Harvey Cox, "To not decide is to decide".

by: ford49

02-04-2010 @ 4:31am

I agree with Patricia. For some reason you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that unfettered free market economics can conflict with the interests of the Gospel, especially the call to do justice. This legislation challenges corruption, and while not perfect, it is better to decide to shine some light than to throw up your hands and just acquiesce to the current reality. Per Harvey Cox, "To not decide is to decide".

by: jurisnaturalist

02-04-2010 @ 6:55am

The idea here is to get corporations to publish what they pay to governments for the privilege of extracting natural resources. I wonder why the onus is on the corporation and not on the receiving government? Suppose the US government refuse aid to governments who don't report?
But it appears we believe corporations would be easier to cajole into revealing information. Maybe so.
How should corporate expenditures be judged? Suppose BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 million a year to dig up coal. Is that too much? Too little? Should they be compelled not to pay at all? If the latter is the case, then Corporations outside the new rule will move in buy from BadDictatorGov instead. The citizens of BadDictatoria could be even worse off.
The move is an attack on the corporation cloaked in a civil rights case for publicity.

by: jurisnaturalist

02-04-2010 @ 6:55am

The idea here is to get corporations to publish what they pay to governments for the privilege of extracting natural resources. I wonder why the onus is on the corporation and not on the receiving government? Suppose the US government refuse aid to governments who don't report?
But it appears we believe corporations would be easier to cajole into revealing information. Maybe so.
How should corporate expenditures be judged? Suppose BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 million a year to dig up coal. Is that too much? Too little? Should they be compelled not to pay at all? If the latter is the case, then Corporations outside the new rule will move in buy from BadDictatorGov instead. The citizens of BadDictatoria could be even worse off.
The move is an attack on the corporation cloaked in a civil rights case for publicity.

by: NC77

02-04-2010 @ 11:52am

Energy companies that are publicly owned and listed on any U.S. stock exchange already publish their financial information on a quarterly basis when they announce earnigs. All companies also do an annual report for the shareholders. This information is available to the pubic whether one is a sharholder or not.

Nevertheless, thanks for bringing the problem to our attention. I want to look into that Energy Security Through Transparency Act when I have some time because the title of the bill sounds onerous. "Security through Transparency" ?

I think fundamentalist hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

"A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel."

I agree. It is the removal of government corruption that will heal those African states weatlhy in natural resources.

A better solution would be to seek honestly and transparency of African state governments. Once that has happened (and that's a huge task that requries a total spiritual transformation in the hearts of all citizens in those countries), then I envision a profit sharing program for those states where the government dispurses the wealth created by natural resources to the people of the state. In the U.S., Alaska has a program that dispurses money to its citizens from the income it realizes from energy (oil and gas). It is ony a few thousand dollars a year per person or family, but for some of the natives in the arctic region who just subsist off the land, it is a signifcant windfall.

by: NC77

02-04-2010 @ 11:52am

Energy companies that are publicly owned and listed on any U.S. stock exchange already publish their financial information on a quarterly basis when they announce earnigs. All companies also do an annual report for the shareholders. This information is available to the pubic whether one is a sharholder or not.

Nevertheless, thanks for bringing the problem to our attention. I want to look into that Energy Security Through Transparency Act when I have some time because the title of the bill sounds onerous. "Security through Transparency" ?

I think fundamentalist hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

"A US law will not change the culture of an entire country. The only power than will cause the transformation necessary is the Gospel."

I agree. It is the removal of government corruption that will heal those African states weatlhy in natural resources.

A better solution would be to seek honestly and transparency of African state governments. Once that has happened (and that's a huge task that requries a total spiritual transformation in the hearts of all citizens in those countries), then I envision a profit sharing program for those states where the government dispurses the wealth created by natural resources to the people of the state. In the U.S., Alaska has a program that dispurses money to its citizens from the income it realizes from energy (oil and gas). It is ony a few thousand dollars a year per person or family, but for some of the natives in the arctic region who just subsist off the land, it is a signifcant windfall.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 12:05pm

I don't believe in an unfettered free market. Capitalists have always insisted on the rule of law and prohibitions of theft and fraud. And I don't see any conflict with the Gosepl, justice (as defined in the Bible) and free markets under the rule of law. If you will point out a conflict that you see, I would be happy to consider it. And I don't oppose the bill. I'm just pointing out that it will not achieve what proponents claim it will.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 12:05pm

I don't believe in an unfettered free market. Capitalists have always insisted on the rule of law and prohibitions of theft and fraud. And I don't see any conflict with the Gosepl, justice (as defined in the Bible) and free markets under the rule of law. If you will point out a conflict that you see, I would be happy to consider it. And I don't oppose the bill. I'm just pointing out that it will not achieve what proponents claim it will.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 1:37pm

This law would provide clear information to the public that they can use to make their decisions about whether or not to purchase the products of BadOil Co. If information is readily available, citizens can make up their own minds about whether it's too much or too little, especially if they get a chance to compare the prices BadOil is paying to different countries.

If BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 milliion per year to dig up coal, but because BadDictatorGov is corrupt the citizens of BadDictatoria have no idea how much money their government is actually taking in, the citizens of BadDictatoria are lacking the information they need to battle corruption that may be taking place. With today's technology, it would be very easy for them to find the figures they need, if the US required the figures to be reported.

This law would primarily apply to energy (oil) corporations, who receive significant subsidies from the American People (so we don't have to pay for our gas up front at the pump so we don't know how much it really costs us so we don't worry too much about cutting back so the oil corporations can continue to sell). Corporations who take money from the public coffers should be expected to be transparent about how they're spending "our" money.

I think the answer would be to expand the proposed legislation to require ANY corporation selling ANYTHING to Americans (we are one of the largest consumer markets in the world) to divulge this information. My guess would be that rather than losing the huge market we provide, they'd 'fess up :).

Corporations have no special right to smoke and mirrors, as far as I can tell.

And I have a problem with what sounds like a "let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if we don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)" arguments against corporate transparency. Not quite the Gospel Jesus Christ was calling us to, in my Book :).

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 1:37pm

This law would provide clear information to the public that they can use to make their decisions about whether or not to purchase the products of BadOil Co. If information is readily available, citizens can make up their own minds about whether it's too much or too little, especially if they get a chance to compare the prices BadOil is paying to different countries.

If BadOil Co. is paying BadDictatorGov $100 milliion per year to dig up coal, but because BadDictatorGov is corrupt the citizens of BadDictatoria have no idea how much money their government is actually taking in, the citizens of BadDictatoria are lacking the information they need to battle corruption that may be taking place. With today's technology, it would be very easy for them to find the figures they need, if the US required the figures to be reported.

This law would primarily apply to energy (oil) corporations, who receive significant subsidies from the American People (so we don't have to pay for our gas up front at the pump so we don't know how much it really costs us so we don't worry too much about cutting back so the oil corporations can continue to sell). Corporations who take money from the public coffers should be expected to be transparent about how they're spending "our" money.

I think the answer would be to expand the proposed legislation to require ANY corporation selling ANYTHING to Americans (we are one of the largest consumer markets in the world) to divulge this information. My guess would be that rather than losing the huge market we provide, they'd 'fess up :).

Corporations have no special right to smoke and mirrors, as far as I can tell.

And I have a problem with what sounds like a "let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if we don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)" arguments against corporate transparency. Not quite the Gospel Jesus Christ was calling us to, in my Book :).

by: ckgmail

02-04-2010 @ 2:57pm

How is justice defined in the Bible? Is it retributive, restorative, both, or something else altogether?

by: ckgmail

02-04-2010 @ 2:57pm

How is justice defined in the Bible? Is it retributive, restorative, both, or something else altogether?

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:37pm

It is both, but mostly it focuses on the process, not the outcome. Western jurisprudence is based on the Bible concept of justice being a process; if the process if fair then the outcome is just. Progressives have changed the meaning of justice to refer to outcomes. Only if the outcomes are what progressives want them to be are they considered just. The definition of justice is one of the main issues dividing progressives and consertives.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:37pm

It is both, but mostly it focuses on the process, not the outcome. Western jurisprudence is based on the Bible concept of justice being a process; if the process if fair then the outcome is just. Progressives have changed the meaning of justice to refer to outcomes. Only if the outcomes are what progressives want them to be are they considered just. The definition of justice is one of the main issues dividing progressives and consertives.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:43pm

What subsidies do oil companies get?

"let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if our corporations don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)"

That's a very distorted characterization of my posts. I couldn't care less if the bill passes or not. At least it keeps Congressmen busy so they're not causing greater harm somewhere else. I am merely pointing out that it will no do what you think it will do.

Besides, why do you want to impose your own morality on other people? You'll find very few people in Africa who think bribes are immoral.

by: fundamentalist

02-04-2010 @ 3:43pm

What subsidies do oil companies get?

"let them rot unless/until they convert" and "if our corporations don't do injustice, someone worse will (and we'll lose money)"

That's a very distorted characterization of my posts. I couldn't care less if the bill passes or not. At least it keeps Congressmen busy so they're not causing greater harm somewhere else. I am merely pointing out that it will no do what you think it will do.

Besides, why do you want to impose your own morality on other people? You'll find very few people in Africa who think bribes are immoral.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 5:03pm

Some links, so this isn't too long:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0118/p01s01-usec.... outlines subsidies given by the government to oil and gas corporations.

http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf (warning - 38 pages!) more detailed information

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/78... (outlines the current proposed cuts and the corporate pushback)

Peter Orzag's testimony RE oil/gas subsidies in FY 10 Federal budget:

Closing tax loopholes for oil and gas companies. The Budget proposes the elimination, starting in 2011, of an array of tax advantages for domestic oil and gas producers. Although the Administration supports the responsible production of oil and natural gas as part of a comprehensive energy strategy, excessive government subsidies distort market signals and slow the transition of the economy from fossil fuels to clean, renewable sources of energy. (To take just one example, the Administration proposes to repeal the expensing of intangible drilling costs such as labor, chemicals, and grease. Under the existing provision, if $80,000 of a $100,000 investment in an oil well were spent on intangible drilling costs, that $80,000 could be immediately written off by a producer, rather than amortized over the life of the asset, as would be the rule for the costs of labor and materials used to build a factory, for example.)

And, you know I am not speaking about imposing our own "morality" on other people - I am speaking about operating within the confines of the "morality" we profess to adhere to - even when others do not have the same beliefs. If you can show me where in the Bible God, Jesus, or any of the Prophets advocate conducting business in opposition to the laws outlined by God when dealing with nonbelievers, I would greatly appreciate it.

by: Patricia

02-04-2010 @ 5:03pm

Some links, so this isn't too long:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0118/p01s01-usec.... outlines subsidies given by the government to oil and gas corporations.

http://www.elistore.org/Data/products/d19_07.pdf (warning - 38 pages!) more detailed information

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/78... (outlines the current proposed cuts and the corporate pushback)

Peter Orzag's testimony RE oil/gas subsidies in FY 10 Federal budget:

Closing tax loopholes for oil and gas companies. The Budget proposes the elimination, starting in 2011, of an array of tax advantages for domestic oil and gas producers. Although the Administration supports the responsible production of oil and natural gas as part of a comprehensive energy strategy, excessive government subsidies distort market signals and slow the transition of the economy from fossil fuels to clean, renewable sources of energy. (To take just one example, the Administration proposes to repeal the expensing of intangible drilling costs such as labor, chemicals, and grease. Under the existing provision, if $80,000 of a $100,000 investment in an oil well were spent on intangible drilling costs, that $80,000 could be immediately written off by a producer, rather than amortized over the life of the asset, as would be the rule for the costs of labor and materials used to build a factory, for example.)

And, you know I am not speaking about imposing our own "morality" on other people - I am speaking about operating within the confines of the "morality" we profess to adhere to - even when others do not have the same beliefs. If you can show me where in the Bible God, Jesus, or any of the Prophets advocate conducting business in opposition to the laws outlined by God when dealing with nonbelievers, I would greatly appreciate it.

by: John Mulholland

02-04-2010 @ 11:58pm

"Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption."

I thought everyone was totally corrupt, hence the need for atonement.

by: John Mulholland

02-04-2010 @ 11:58pm

"Of course, if everyone were totally corrupt, no amount of laws can stop the corruption."

I thought everyone was totally corrupt, hence the need for atonement.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 1:37am

"...all too often these payments prop up governments where corruption runs rampant, and where officials find it easier to trample on the human rights of transparency activists..."

If we really want to stop the flow of American money that props up dictators, we'll end all foreign aid. Nothing keeps murderous dictators in power longer than government to government aid.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 1:37am

"...all too often these payments prop up governments where corruption runs rampant, and where officials find it easier to trample on the human rights of transparency activists..."

If we really want to stop the flow of American money that props up dictators, we'll end all foreign aid. Nothing keeps murderous dictators in power longer than government to government aid.

by: Patricia

02-05-2010 @ 1:56am

The amount of foreign aid we provide countries is miniscule when compared to the amount of money corporations "invest". The total amount of foreign aid we provide to the entire world is less than 2% of the Federal Budget. And that money is divvied up between hundreds of nations. It's a pittance - especially compared to the corporate sums given only to the governments of nations possessing the natural resources they're after.

by: Patricia

02-05-2010 @ 1:56am

The amount of foreign aid we provide countries is miniscule when compared to the amount of money corporations "invest". The total amount of foreign aid we provide to the entire world is less than 2% of the Federal Budget. And that money is divvied up between hundreds of nations. It's a pittance - especially compared to the corporate sums given only to the governments of nations possessing the natural resources they're after.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 12:22pm

Yes, but what you should be comparing is total foreign aid with total bribes.

by: fundamentalist

02-05-2010 @ 12:22pm

Yes, but what you should be comparing is total foreign aid with total bribes.

by: ckgmail

02-05-2010 @ 5:37pm

On what specific text(s) or context(s) in the Bible do you base your statement about justice as defined in the Bible. I have studied the Old Testament extensively and know that the Hebrew word for justice is "mishpat" (as closely as I can transliterate into English). The Hebrew root is sh-p-t. In Hebrew poetry mishpat is frequently used in synonymous parallelism with "tsedek" (masc.). or "tsedekah" (fem.) (ditto on the transliteration), which is usually translated as righteousness. "ts-d-k" (ditto again for the transliteration) is the root verb for tsedek. It has the concept of making right, true, just (see Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament). Biblical justice or righteousness cannot be defined in a sentence or even a paragraph. One could do a doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew words jor justice and righteousness, and still not have a complete understanding of the concepts. The concept of making right, IMHO, is primarily restorative.

And I do believe that capitalism as currently practiced is often in conflict with biblical justice and righteousness. I would say the same for socialism. I think that you have elsewhere on this blog stated that there is a continuum between capitalism and socialism. (Maybe it was someone else). At any rate, I agree regarding the continuum. The dispute, IMHO, regards where our economic system should be on that continuum. You and I probably disagree on that point. And both of us could probably find biblical backing for our positions.

When I did my doctoral dissertation many years ago, I had to back up my conclusions with evidence. Sometimes my professors disagreed with my interpretations. Sometimes not. They allowed me the freedom to come to those conclusions. That's the kind of process I would like to see on the Sojo blogs and in the comments on those blogs.

Respectfully, Rev. Dr. Charles Kiker

by: ckgmail

02-05-2010 @ 5:37pm

On what specific text(s) or context(s) in the Bible do you base your statement about justice as defined in the Bible. I have studied the Old Testament extensively and know that the Hebrew word for justice is "mishpat" (as closely as I can transliterate into English). The Hebrew root is sh-p-t. In Hebrew poetry mishpat is frequently used in synonymous parallelism with "tsedek" (masc.). or "tsedekah" (fem.) (ditto on the transliteration), which is usually translated as righteousness. "ts-d-k" (ditto again for the transliteration) is the root verb for tsedek. It has the concept of making right, true, just (see Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament). Biblical justice or righteousness cannot be defined in a sentence or even a paragraph. One could do a doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew words jor justice and righteousness, and still not have a complete understanding of the concepts. The concept of making right, IMHO, is primarily restorative.

And I do believe that capitalism as currently practiced is often in conflict with biblical justice and righteousness. I would say the same for socialism. I think that you have elsewhere on this blog stated that there is a continuum between capitalism and socialism. (Maybe it was someone else). At any rate, I agree regarding the continuum. The dispute, IMHO, regards where our economic system should be on that continuum. You and I probably disagree on that point. And both of us could probably find biblical backing for our positions.

When I did my doctoral dissertation many years ago, I had to back up my conclusions with evidence. Sometimes my professors disagreed with my interpretations. Sometimes not. They allowed me the freedom to come to those conclusions. That's the kind of process I would like to see on the Sojo blogs and in the comments on those blogs.

Respectfully, Rev. Dr. Charles Kiker

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 12:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 12:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 2:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

by: Ngchen

02-06-2010 @ 2:40am

Well, I guess here is where part of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate kicks in. Arminians tend to believe that yes, we're corrupt, but maybe not 100% corupt. After all, if we were all 100% corrupt, how would we even know we're corrupt, and needed salvation?

Moving to the "practical" side, if corruption were viewed as a continuous quantity rather than a simple yes/no quantity, then yes the force of disclosures and laws can reduce the corruption, but not eliminate it.

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