Victory for Haiti Debt Cancellation!

"Debt was sacred; countries had to pay their debts before anything else

"World poverty is falling. This column presents new estimates of the world's income distribution and suggests that world poverty is disappearing faster than previously thought. From 1970 to 2006, poverty fell by 86% in South Asia, 73% in Latin America, 39% in the Middle East, and 20% in Africa. Barring a catastrophe, there will never be more than a billion people in poverty in the future history of the world.." http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4508.

How has this happened? With debt forgiveness and aid? Not at all! As nations abandoned traditional, corrupt forms of government and socialism and adopted small measures of capitalism by freeing their markets a tiny amount, there people became wealthier. It's amazing what following God's principles on private property will do.

I agree. It's not a total fix but it is one less burden the country has to deal with. The rest is up to the people of Haiti.

Isn't China still a communist country? And doesn't it still depend a great deal on manipulation by the government? China is bent on one thing: to be the economic Goliath of the world. Meanwhile, in spite of state-sponsored torture and other punishments, millions of Christians have put their faith in Christ there.

I'd also say that it's dangerous to make a system an idol, be it socialism, communism, capitalism, or any other ism. To argue that capitalism is the only way to social justice puts money before God. And Jesus had plenty to say about that...

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Is corruption the cause of poverty or the result of it?

Who is responsible for paying debt, corrupt rulers and their loan giving allies? Or the people ruled by the corrupt rulers who had no say in the matter?

What is more Christ-like, advocating debt relief for those flattened by an earthquake, or telling squashed people they have to pay up?

I'd love to hear from the libertarians their perspective on how to help the world's poor. It seems they spend so much energy wanting to protect their own liberties and wealth that there isn't much left for "the least of these."

Have you read "Money, Greed and God" by Jay Richards? It's very good. He has a story about Haiti in it in which he writes "In Haiti, you have to jump through 65 bureaucratic hoops just to lease land from the government. Buying the land? Another 111 hoops. It would take a diligent Haitian nineteen years to pull this off, assuming he could get the time off from work, if he has work. And the fact that he's acquired property legally doesn't necessarily mean that his situation won't change tomorrow, since the country itself frequently changes owners."

His point is that the lack of property rights and the impossibility of getting clear title to land makes development absolutely impossible. Of course, getting title would be easier if you had the money to bribe thousands of officials to speed up the process, but then your title is only secure until someone bribes the same officials to steal you land.

Until Haiti completely re-writes its laws and starts protecting private property, no one will invest in Haiti and without investment no one will have jobs. It's simply wilfull blindness on the part of some to lay all of the blame on debt.

So you agree farmers shouldn't double harvest their fields so that poor people and immigrants are ensured of at least a few bites to eat as they pass through?

And that laws should be in place to prevent unjust lending practices?

That individual debts should be cancelled every decade or so?

how very... traditional of you

No. Following sound hermeneutical principles, I take the principle of the OT laws and not the letter. One principle is the sanctity of property. Another is helping the poor. We should follow both without requiring the implementation of the literal Mosaic law in exactly the way God required Israel to do. For example, instead of cancelling debts during the year of Jubilee, we have bankruptcy laws. Instead of gleenings, we have charities.

Does the NT not consider theft and fraud crimes as well as the OT?

Debt Management

Zeal is wonderful, but as Paul wrote it needs knowledge to be effective. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting better results is a form of insanity.

To claim that God can't work in Haiti without debt relief seems to be the blasphemous part to me. What does debt relief have to do with the power of God?

God has effected real change in the world. Look at China. Hundreds of millions of people were lifted out of the worst poverty on the planet. As recently as the 1960's 30 million people starved to death from famine. Some resorted to cannibalism. And the Chinese had no debt relief, even though the US had loaned them trillions of dollars in the 1970's and 1980's to feed their people.

"World poverty is falling. This column presents new estimates of the world's income distribution and suggests that world poverty is disappearing faster than previously thought. From 1970 to 2006, poverty fell by 86% in South Asia, 73% in Latin America, 39% in the Middle East, and 20% in Africa. Barring a catastrophe, there will never be more than a billion people in poverty in the future history of the world.." http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/4508.

How has this happened? With debt forgiveness and aid? Not at all! As nations abandoned traditional, corrupt forms of government and socialism and adopted small measures of capitalism by freeing their markets a tiny amount, there people became wealthier. It's amazing what following God's principles on private property will do.

I agree. It's not a total fix but it is one less burden the country has to deal with. The rest is up to the people of Haiti.

N After solid hermeneutical principles, take the principle of the laws of the Old Testament and not the letter. A principle is the sanctity of property. Another is to help the poor. We follow a time, without the application of the Mosaic law literally, exactly the way of God, Israel should do. For example, instead of canceling the debts during the year of Jubilee, who have bankruptcy laws. Instead gleenings to Charity. NT not consider theft and fraud and the Old Testament?
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Debt Relief

Bankrucptcy relieves a person or organization of repaying their debts, and makes it difficult to borrow more money until a certain time has passed or other conditions of the bankruptcy are met.

Going forward. Let's hope Haiti does not borrow more money that it cannot repay (regardless of the reason). Rather let's hope that nations working with Haiti to rebuild are able to fund the work with money that is given not borrowed.

If the government remains corrupt, then let's bypass the government as best as we can and let those seeking righteousness thrive.

Have you read "Money, Greed and God" by Jay Richards? It's very good. He has a story about Haiti in it in which he writes "In Haiti, you have to jump through 65 bureaucratic hoops just to lease land from the government. Buying the land? Another 111 hoops. It would take a diligent Haitian nineteen years to pull this off, assuming he could get the time off from work, if he has work. And the fact that he's acquired property legally doesn't necessarily mean that his situation won't change tomorrow, since the country itself frequently changes owners."

Have you read "Money, Greed and God" by Jay Richards? It's very good. He has a story about Haiti in it in which he writes "In Haiti, you have to jump through 65 bureaucratic hoops just to lease land from the government. Buying the land? Another 111 hoops. It would take a diligent Haitian nineteen years to pull this off, assuming he could get the time off from work, if he has work. And the fact that he's acquired property legally doesn't necessarily mean that his situation won't change tomorrow, since the country itself frequently changes owners."

His point is that the lack of property rights and the impossibility of getting clear title to land makes development absolutely impossible. Of course, getting title would be easier if you had the money to bribe thousands of officials to speed up the process, but then your title is only secure until someone bribes the same officials to steal you land.

Until Haiti completely re-writes its laws and starts protecting private property, no one will invest in Haiti and without investment no one will have jobs. It's simply wilfull blindness on the part of some to lay all of the blame on debt.

Yes. What's your point?

I thought I provided evidence in my post above.

Do either the OT or the NT command that the victims of theft be punished for the crime?

Yes. What's your point?

Maybe. But personally I can't maintain that opinion, because I'd just remain mired myself in the despair of hopelessness; and if our Christian tradition holds on to anything beyond Jesus Christ, it has to be the hope of new life ~ even if it's hope for new life for those in Haiti and elsewhere who could really benefit from a new life right now.

So I hold on to hope that debt forgiveness really does make a difference, and I will continue to advocate for debt relief and for making a difference in the lives of the poorest among us; to do otherwise, from my perspective, would be to blaspheme, to deny the power of God to effect real change in the world.

I'd love to hear from the libertarians their perspective on how to help the world's poor. It seems they spend so much energy wanting to protect their own liberties and wealth that there isn't much left for "the least of these."