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Health-Care Polls, Good Will, and the Golden Rule

100224_091022-068-health-careGood will is a primary element of moral conduct. This is an important idea in the thought of philosopher Immanuel Kant. A good will is good in itself because it does not depend upon whether or not the person will benefit from a particular action or not. An individual acting out of a good will considers his or her duty to act in accordance with the moral law.

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Kant's test for whether or not an action coheres to the moral law is his Categorical Imperative, which is very close to the Golden Rule that Jesus taught. The Categorical Imperative says: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it become a universal law." The Golden Rule says: "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12). So, to act from a good will is to act in accordance to one's duty to do to others as we would be done by -- to ask ourselves what kind of world we would create if everyone acted the way we do.

Sadly, many of our Congress members are not acting with a good will. In advance of President Obama's health-care reform summit, for example, at least one Republican Congress member is saying that the American people oppose the President's health-care reform proposal. He is correct. A recent Rasmussen poll reports that 56% of its respondents strongly oppose President Obama's health-care reform. However, what the Congress member does not say is that in polls where the respondents are told what the elements of the bill are, they approve of the various elements, and support for the bill goes up.

A Newsweek Poll conducted Feb. 17-18, 2010, found the following opinions of the president's plan: opposed 49%, favor40%, unsure 9%. After hearing about the specifics of the proposal, the numbers changed: opposed 43%, favor48%, unsure 9%. Fifty percent of the respondents favor "a government-administered public health insurance option to compete with private plans."

More people in the Kaiser Family Foundation Kaiser Health Tracking Poll believe their families would be better off if the president and Congress passed health-care reform (better off 34%, worse off32%, 26% not much difference). This number goes up when asked if the country as a whole would be better off (better off 45%, worse off34%, not much difference 12%). Thirty-two percent think that Congress should pass legislation that has already been approved while 20% think Congress should pass only those provisions where there is broad agreement. Fifty-nine percent think the delay is due to both sides playing politics.

This Congress member told the partial truth. This is dishonest. This is dissembling. This is unnecessary. There are items in the polls that would support Republican positions. Most people think it is important for health insurers to have the ability to sell across state lines. However, by giving only the facts of the poll that support his position, this Congress member violated the Categorical Imperative and the Golden Rule. The presumption here is that he would not want people to tell half-truths to him or that we ought not to make half-truth-telling a universal law.

What is worse, we have to spend time checking the facts of a poll rather than learning the facts of the various proposals, a combination of which may finally get this country to universal health care. And universal health care is a moral good and ought to be a legislative imperative.

Dr. Valerie Elverton Dixon is an independent scholar who publishes lectures and essays at JustPeaceTheory.com. She received her Ph.D. in religion and society from Temple University and taught Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary and Andover Newton Theological School.

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by: Ngchen

02-25-2010 @ 5:38pm

For the FD and PD, there is a moral case to be made that hypothetically if the PD had the clear opportunity to save an innocent victim, but does not due to the victim being unable to pay, then there is something wrong.

Now as for insurance, suppose someone who's diabetic and needs insulin dies because there is not money to pay for it. It's a similar situation, and one can reasonably argue that the rest of society should pay for this sort of medically necessary treatment.

(I'm acutely aware of the fact that societal resources are not unlimited, and that the money has to come from somewhere. That's why I believe so strongly about the need for overall cost reduction, and limiting "charitable" medical care to a no-frills package.)

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06-20-2011 @ 8:28am

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by: pawheel

02-25-2010 @ 6:03pm

Fundamentalist,

Have you heard the statistic that over 40,000 people annually die in this country because they lack health insurance? I heard that from several sources, including the largest nurses organization in California, as well as more than one national news show.
People dying from crimes and fires are things that happen quickly usually; a gunshot, burned to death because they couldn't get out of a car or building, etc. I really disagree with the comparison.
" In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it."
I had a friend who knew he had a problem, but also knew that he made very little money and couldn't afford insurance. When it became obvious to us that something was wrong, we took him to a "Christian" for profit hospital, the closest one to his home. They looked at him, told us that he had a problem that needed to be dealt with right away, and immediately sent us away with nothing but the phone number for Medicaid. Message received, come back when you have insurance. So we took him to a non profit hospital who took him in immediately but he didn't survive long enough to even finish the Chemo treatments. Now you have heard of that happening. His name was Eddie Razoux. If single payer insurance existed in this country as it does in every other major industrialized country I argue that he would have possibly still be here. You may not know people who don't go to get treatment due to the cost, but I could name others from personal experience. I'm sure may others could also. It's true that people regularly decide against treatment due to cost. Many people have lost their homes or had to file bankrupcy due to medical problems only.
And don't even get me started about how many people who had paid into their insurance for years while they are healthy, then got dropped from coverage once they got an expensive illness. Several major insurers have addmitted to this or had paperwork from the company brought public. Wellpoint is one.
Insurance companies can have up to 30% profit rates, as in California. How much healthcare could 30 % of a multi billion $ company buy?

by: ckgmail

02-25-2010 @ 6:28pm

That sentence is used a couple of times in the book of Judges to introduce some pretty bad stuff.

by: ckgmail

02-27-2010 @ 2:04am

The clause, "In those days there was no king in Israel" occurs four times in
the Book of Judges:
Judges 17:5-6 from NRSV--"This man Micah had a shrine and he made an ephod
and teraphim, and installed one of his sons, who became his priest. In those
days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their
own eyes." This is near the beginning of the story of Micah setting up the
Danite shrine famous later for its bull worship. Very interesting story. You
might want to read again if you haven't read it lately.

Judges 18:1--"In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days
the tribe of Dan was seeking for itself a territory . . ." More of the story
of Micah, who had his own little shrine and his own gods.

Judges 19:1--"In those days, when there was no king in Israel . . ." And
then there follows the story of the rape of the Levite's concubine. Another
interesting, yet horrible story that you may want to read again.

Judges 21:25--[the very last verse in the Book of Judges] "In those days
there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own
eyes." And this immediately follows the kidnapping, by the Benjaminites, of
girls from Shiloh so that the tribe of Benjamin might not be utterly cut
off.

The book of Judges, as I'm sure you are aware, is a saga of repeated
idolatry in Israel, followed by repentance, deliverance by a judge,
backsliding into idolatry again, repentance, delivery, and so on throughtout
the book. These cycles occasionally are broken by stories, like the story of
Micah, the Levite's concubine, and the kidnaping of the girls of Shiloh. It
hardly paints a picture of an Israelite utopia.

Now, to be sure, the time of the Kings, while more orderly, was not more
righteous. But I would insist that a thorough going libertarianism is not a
scriptural ideal. Nor is it a good prescription for our times.

by: ingreif

02-27-2010 @ 1:26am

seriously why are we argueing about this. WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT PERIOD. We need to reel in spending. We are borrowing money our kids wont even be able to pay back. whats the point in saying we will give to the poor or needy when we dont have the money in the first place. We cant pay for something we dont have the money to use to pay for it. medicare and medicaid have how much wasted money from fraud. lets fix this first and see how many more people we can cover with the extra money we get. Coulkd we maybe try ideas that dont cost money first see how much this helps then go from there. Why the need to completely change it. Lets not foget the unions and how much they cost us. if the federal government had charge of health care GUESS WHO benefits the greatest unions. surprise surprise. there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much dishonesty on both sides its pathetic. WE ALL know this but ignore it. Polls are dishonest anyone who knows how to do it can make them say what they want. And speaking of half truths good gooly what politition tells the whole truth. Obama has told some seriouse half truths if not flat out lies. Heck they all have. Our government is in sad sad shape. Its abviouse after a year change and hope will have to what for some more honest polititions, if such exsist.

by: ckgmail

02-27-2010 @ 12:04am

The clause, "In those days there was no king in Israel" occurs four times in
the Book of Judges:
Judges 17:5-6 from NRSV--"This man Micah had a shrine and he made an ephod
and teraphim, and installed one of his sons, who became his priest. In those
days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their
own eyes." This is near the beginning of the story of Micah setting up the
Danite shrine famous later for its bull worship. Very interesting story. You
might want to read again if you haven't read it lately.

Judges 18:1--"In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days
the tribe of Dan was seeking for itself a territory . . ." More of the story
of Micah, who had his own little shrine and his own gods.

Judges 19:1--"In those days, when there was no king in Israel . . ." And
then there follows the story of the rape of the Levite's concubine. Another
interesting, yet horrible story that you may want to read again.

Judges 21:25--[the very last verse in the Book of Judges] "In those days
there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own
eyes." And this immediately follows the kidnapping, by the Benjaminites, of
girls from Shiloh so that the tribe of Benjamin might not be utterly cut
off.

The book of Judges, as I'm sure you are aware, is a saga of repeated
idolatry in Israel, followed by repentance, deliverance by a judge,
backsliding into idolatry again, repentance, delivery, and so on throughtout
the book. These cycles occasionally are broken by stories, like the story of
Micah, the Levite's concubine, and the kidnaping of the girls of Shiloh. It
hardly paints a picture of an Israelite utopia.

Now, to be sure, the time of the Kings, while more orderly, was not more
righteous. But I would insist that a thorough going libertarianism is not a
scriptural ideal. Nor is it a good prescription for our times.

by: ingreif

02-26-2010 @ 11:26pm

seriously why are we argueing about this. WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT PERIOD. We need to reel in spending. We are borrowing money our kids wont even be able to pay back. whats the point in saying we will give to the poor or needy when we dont have the money in the first place. We cant pay for something we dont have the money to use to pay for it. medicare and medicaid have how much wasted money from fraud. lets fix this first and see how many more people we can cover with the extra money we get. Coulkd we maybe try ideas that dont cost money first see how much this helps then go from there. Why the need to completely change it. Lets not foget the unions and how much they cost us. if the federal government had charge of health care GUESS WHO benefits the greatest unions. surprise surprise. there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much dishonesty on both sides its pathetic. WE ALL know this but ignore it. Polls are dishonest anyone who knows how to do it can make them say what they want. And speaking of half truths good gooly what politition tells the whole truth. Obama has told some seriouse half truths if not flat out lies. Heck they all have. Our government is in sad sad shape. Its abviouse after a year change and hope will have to what for some more honest polititions, if such exsist.

by: squeaky

02-26-2010 @ 2:25pm

Sin

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 12:52pm

Europe has a much more rational form of socialism than we do. They set the prices for medical care. We have an irrational system of socialism that guarantees unlimited demand while limiting the supply without fixing prices. That is a recipe for disaster. If we must have socialism, then let's do it like Europe with price controls for every single one of the tens of thousands of procedures that doctors and hospitals perform, including caps on doctor and CEO salaries.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 12:49pm

Are you accusing me of lying? You should be willing to point out the lie and provide evidence that it is a lie.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 12:48pm

And the people under the kings acted more godly? I don't think so. Both groups had the law. The only difference between the judges and the kings was that the king and nobility could plunder the wealth of the rest of the nation at will, as Solomon did. God warned them about it.

If life under the Judges was so awful, then why did God say that Israel had rejected him and then warned them of the evil that kings would do to them?

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 12:45pm

Why?

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 12:44pm

"If single payer insurance existed in this country as it does in every other major industrialized country I argue that he would have possibly still be here."

Your story is sad and I feel for you and your friend. But think about what you're asking the for-profit hospital to do: you're asking them to use the money of their investors gave them to operate a business for charity instead. That hospital does not have the right to do that. That would be theft, even if for a good cause. The non-profit, probably operated by another Christian organization, had the funds to help the guy, funds designated as charity for that specific purpose. It's a shame you didn't take your friend to the hospital that has charitable funds available first. However, if your friend died soon afterwards, there is probably no reason to assume that he would have lived had he received treatment earlier. My father had the best insurance money can buy, and he still died of liver cancer after months in the hospital.

And having European style healthcare doesn't mean your friend would have lived. It's often the case that European doctors look at someone as sick as your friend and refuse treatment because they know it will do no good. American doctors will try anything even if the chances of success are close to zero.

Maybe I live in an unusual community, but when somone in the Tulsa area faces huge medical bills without insurance, a single story on the news brings in tens of thousands of dollars from willing donors. Plus we have two large non-profit hospitals that spend over half a million a month on charitable cases. A lot of wealthy people donate huge sums to those hospitals so they can care for the poor.

"Insurance companies can have up to 30% profit rates, as in California."

The national average is 5% profit for health insurance companies. Every state has an insurance commission that must approve rates. There is no free market in health insurance. I seriously doubt that a socialist state like CA would allow insurance companies to earn 30% profit.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 6:38pm

Apparently some polls have indicated that
a majority of Americans favor universal heallth
care w/ a single payer system.

by: jesse3

02-24-2010 @ 7:04pm

"At least one Republican Congress member is saying that the American people oppose the President's health-care reform proposal. He is correct. A recent Rasmussen poll reports that 56% of its respondents strongly oppose President Obama's health-care reform."

"This Congress member told the partial truth. This is dishonest."

Sorry, Valerie, I'm not computing. Was he telling the truth or wasn't he?

And you can change opinions on any piece of legislation by giving specifics here and there. Obviously, if you emphasize positive aspects of the legislation in a poll, you will shift opinions in a positive direction. And guess what? If you emphasize negative aspects of the legislation--and there are many in this piece--you will shift opinion in a negative direction. Saying "the public supports specific proposals" is not very meaningful.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:05pm

Everyone knows that you can get widely differing results from polls just by stating the question in a different way. So it's really not fair to call the Congressman a liar just because cited the results of a single poll.

Also, one of the main reasons for the intense fight over the issue is this tendency to cast it in absolute moral categories. It's not true that "universal health care is a moral good." We know from the Bible that helping the poor is good for individuals. And we know that withholding help from someone you know needs help when you have the means to help is immoral.

However, there are spheres of responsibility that put limits on my obligations to help others. At the extreme, I'm not responsible for everyone in the world. In addition, those closest to the victim and family share the greatest responsibility. My response to the victim should be voluntary; coerced charity is not much less than theft.

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirments of morality in the Bible.

We should refrain from casting political issues as absolute moral issues. Government paid insurance is just one of many possible ways to help provide healthcare to the poor. Preferring one of those alternatives is not immoral.

by: BlueDeacon

02-24-2010 @ 7:15pm

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirements of morality in the Bible.

Here's a different perspective: Suppose someone actually dies because he/she couldn't get health insurance for any of a number of different reasons (and this is more than a hypothetical). Some would put that on a par with police or fire protection. At that point it becomes more than an issue of "charity"; it's actually about justice.

by: histrogeek

02-24-2010 @ 7:32pm

Biblical law specifically stated that the poor of Israel were to be carried for. In part this was to be accomplished through individual acts of charity, but also through government action; these are law codes we're talking about. So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor? Isn't that enforced charity or theft?

And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts. The judgment fell on the community as a whole.

Finally, you talk about moral hazard, a favorite topic of certain economic theorist. I'll bring up another, negative externality (doesn't have the same ring I know). A business may save money by eliminating health insurance. They also save money by keeping taxes low because there is no public health insurance. Now say one of their employees gets TB or H1N1. They spread it to their family, then mine and throughout the community. So now we all pay, but the business has effectively gotten a big break. They don't pay any more than the rest of us, even though they got the benefit of high profits.

by: BuckeyeDon

02-24-2010 @ 7:39pm

Thank you, Valerie, for writing this column. I was just in an online discussion with someone who insisted that only 30% of Americans support the health care bill. I was able to show him that this was not really true.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:56pm

People die all the time from crime and fires, yet we don't consider the police or firemen immoral monsters for not preventing those deaths. In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it. I have heard of people dieing in an emergency room because the doctors were swamped and couldn't get to them in time.

But no one dies from lack of insurance; it's medically impossible. You could make the dubious claim that because they lacked insurance they didn't get the preventive care that might have given them better health.

But let's assume the absolutely worst case scenario and say that a hospital refused treatment for a critically ill person because he didn't have insurance and that person died. Before we condemn the hospital for acting immorally, we need to know what efforts the patient made to improve his health and pay for healthcare or insurance. We need to know what his neighbors, church, and family did, for they are the first line of defense. Then we need to know if the hospital could have saved the patient, because if the illness is advanced to the point that he faces death, hospitalization may not help.

You would have to be much more specific about a particular case to determine if the death of the patient was an injustice or an immoral act.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:13pm

Clearly the Bible commands the godly to care for the poor. But how much and who should do it. I don't think the Mosaic law instructs the state to do it. If that were the case, the laws requiring care for the poor would have specific penalties for breaking them, as the criminal laws reqarding theft and murder do. In other words, you could go to jail or be fined for not giving to the poor. In addition, charity should be voluntary. If the state does it through taxation, then it's not voluntary. One could argue that it's theft.

"So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor?"

So did the Mosaic law provide penalties for refusing to do so? Could the poor take a farmer to court and sue for damages? You could do that under the Mosaic law for theft or fraud, but not for breaking the poor laws. I think that indicates that God wanted charity to be voluntary. He would personally deal with violators.

But even if the Mosaic law criminalized neglect of the poor, that places no requirement on us to do the same. All that the Mosaic law requires of us is the principle that we care for the poor. How we do it is up to us.

"And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts."

As I wrote above, God dealt personally with those who neglected the poor, and he judged the entire nation for it, too. But that doesn't mean he made taking care of the poor the state's responsibility. Also, the condemnation of the rich in the OT was not about neglect or exploitation, it was about the nobility abusing their power in government to steal from the poor.

"I'll bring up another, negative externality"

I would quibble that your scenario is an externality of the business's decision, but that's not important. The important point is sphere's of responsibility. You're scenario assumes that the business, and only the business, is responsible for the health of its employees. It is not. The employee is responsible first, then his family, friends, church, neighbors, etc. in concentric circles radiating out from him. The business is not responsible for the health of employees; it is responsible to pay a market wage for work; that's all.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:14pm

I'm not opposed to the public option. In other posts I expressed my support for it for practical reason. My argument here is that it's not a moral issue; it's a practical issue. And casting it as a moral issue only clouds it and makes agreement on practical matters more difficult.

by: Jesusistheway

02-24-2010 @ 8:41pm

I was under the impression that, in ancient Israel, their religion and their government were indistinguishable. Ironically, we are told that the US is a secular nation. What's fascinating is that"we" want a wall of separation between religion and government, but we also want our government to act morally when it comes to issues such as health care, climate change, racial relations. But when it comes to issues like abortion and homosexuality, government shouldn't and can't legislate morality.

I'm all for a single-payer system, but I'm also in favor of a ban on abortions in the country. Both are based on a moral view and a desire to do unto others.....unfortunately, too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 9:01pm

Yes the religion and government were the same; Israel was a theocracy. But even in that theocracy God limited the power of the state and reserved judgment on some things for himself. In fact, Israel under the Judges is a libertarians dream come true!

"too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good."

It's more accurate to say that people have different ideas of what constitutes the "greater good."

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 9:18pm

In the days of the Judges "there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes." I fear the latter clause would prevail in a strictly libertarian society.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:32pm

This is true. When polls specifically ask if Americans support Medicare for Everyone, 2/3 of the respondents say yes! That's a pretty clear, pretty unambiguous question - kind of hard to spin - which is why the consistent, 2/3 YES answer to THAT poll question is hardly ever mentioned.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 11:35pm

Nobody wants Medicare for All except 2/3 of the people. That's why that poll is hardly ever mentioned.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:46pm

It's the difference between opposing what people BELIEVE is the proposal VS supporting what is actually IN the proposal. Republicans have done a masterful job lying about and distorting this proposal. Many people who believe they oppose it based on the lies they've been told, find that they support it when they learn the truth.

So, yes, this Congress member was dishonest - twice - first in lying about the proposal initially specifically to undermine support, and then in presenting the opposition to the distorted version as opposition to the actual proposal.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 12:09am

Your comments sound so legalistic and pharisaical to me, and I just don't see where your interpretation fits with the command Jesus gave us as His followers.

I cannot remember a single instance in the New Testament when a sick person came to Jesus and He stopped to ascertain whether or not that person, their family, or their neighbors had fulfilled their "responsibilities" before healing.

Jesus healed the sick.

Jesuis commanded us to love others as He loves us, and that love repeatedly, fundamentally included healing the sick.

This is absolutely a moral issue. It's more than a moral issue - it's a spiritual issue.As is lying, as is distortion. Christians ought to refrain from using dishonesty to promote their desired outcomes. If the truth will not suffice as the means,then it's time to take a closer look at the ends.

by: BlueDeacon

02-25-2010 @ 2:14am

There's a difference. There was no need for a legislature in ancient Israel because there was no need to make more civil laws -- they had already been given.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 2:56am

Yes...insurance corporations don't want it...pharmaceutical corporations don't want it...their high-paid lobbyists don't want it...members of Congress who would lose access to the funding don't want it...no one making a buck from jacking up prices wants it...too bad about the majority of the American people.

by: ckgmail

02-25-2010 @ 12:15pm

So, we have the best government money can buy.

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:32pm

And that's a bad thing?

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:50pm

Jesus did not give us government policies. He gave us guidance on personal behavior. Jesus was not a policy wonk. It's ridiculous to say that the state should follow the Sermon on the Mount. That's just sloppy hermeneutics. And since so many want to toss around the dishonesty charge, sloppy hermeneutics is dishonest handling of the word of God.

Of course personal behavior toward the poor and needy is a moral issue. To claim that I said otherwise is dishonest as well. I was writing about government policies. It's wrong to say that a particular government policy is the moral thing to do and to oppose that policy is immoral. Morality isn't just a matter of preference. Because I oppose one particular policy for helping the poor doesn't mean that I hate the poor and want to see them dead. That's such an old socialist ploy, and it's dishonest, too.

Socialists think that helping the poor is nothing but a matter of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, and since the rich won't voluntarily give as much as socialists want them to, the state needs to put a gun to their heads and take it by force. But does that really make the poor better off? In the very short run it does, but history has proven that in the long run it makes them, and everyone else poorer.

Should Congress pass the president's healthcare bill, even with a public option, the problem won't be solved. It will only increase demand for healthcare without increasing the supply at all. Even people with no economics background should be able to see that increasing demand for something with a fixed supply will cause huge price increases in medical care. The state can make criminals of those who don't want to buy insurance, but it will have to provide greater and greater subsidies because fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. At some point the state will go bankrupt because it can't get the taxes it needs to continue paying insurance premiums for those who can't afford them.

That's where European countries are today. They have taxed their people to the point that they can't increase revenue through taxes any more, yet the costs of socialism are growing rapidly. So they have huge budget deficits and borrow from the rest of the world to finance their socialism. What happens when the rest of the world quits buying their debt? Greece, is what happens. California is what happens. That's why the people elected Merkel and Sarkozy, to try to rein in socialist spending. But they haven't succeeded very well.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 1:54pm

Isn't the point of this article highlighting the dishonesty of using distortion and half-truths to advance an argument?

by: squeaky

02-25-2010 @ 2:09pm

Yup.

by: Ngchen

02-25-2010 @ 5:38pm

For the FD and PD, there is a moral case to be made that hypothetically if the PD had the clear opportunity to save an innocent victim, but does not due to the victim being unable to pay, then there is something wrong.

Now as for insurance, suppose someone who's diabetic and needs insulin dies because there is not money to pay for it. It's a similar situation, and one can reasonably argue that the rest of society should pay for this sort of medically necessary treatment.

(I'm acutely aware of the fact that societal resources are not unlimited, and that the money has to come from somewhere. That's why I believe so strongly about the need for overall cost reduction, and limiting "charitable" medical care to a no-frills package.)

by: pawheel

02-25-2010 @ 6:03pm

Fundamentalist,

Have you heard the statistic that over 40,000 people annually die in this country because they lack health insurance? I heard that from several sources, including the largest nurses organization in California, as well as more than one national news show.
People dying from crimes and fires are things that happen quickly usually; a gunshot, burned to death because they couldn't get out of a car or building, etc. I really disagree with the comparison.
" In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it."
I had a friend who knew he had a problem, but also knew that he made very little money and couldn't afford insurance. When it became obvious to us that something was wrong, we took him to a "Christian" for profit hospital, the closest one to his home. They looked at him, told us that he had a problem that needed to be dealt with right away, and immediately sent us away with nothing but the phone number for Medicaid. Message received, come back when you have insurance. So we took him to a non profit hospital who took him in immediately but he didn't survive long enough to even finish the Chemo treatments. Now you have heard of that happening. His name was Eddie Razoux. If single payer insurance existed in this country as it does in every other major industrialized country I argue that he would have possibly still be here. You may not know people who don't go to get treatment due to the cost, but I could name others from personal experience. I'm sure may others could also. It's true that people regularly decide against treatment due to cost. Many people have lost their homes or had to file bankrupcy due to medical problems only.
And don't even get me started about how many people who had paid into their insurance for years while they are healthy, then got dropped from coverage once they got an expensive illness. Several major insurers have addmitted to this or had paperwork from the company brought public. Wellpoint is one.
Insurance companies can have up to 30% profit rates, as in California. How much healthcare could 30 % of a multi billion $ company buy?

by: ckgmail

02-27-2010 @ 2:04am

The clause, "In those days there was no king in Israel" occurs four times in
the Book of Judges:
Judges 17:5-6 from NRSV--"This man Micah had a shrine and he made an ephod
and teraphim, and installed one of his sons, who became his priest. In those
days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their
own eyes." This is near the beginning of the story of Micah setting up the
Danite shrine famous later for its bull worship. Very interesting story. You
might want to read again if you haven't read it lately.

Judges 18:1--"In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days
the tribe of Dan was seeking for itself a territory . . ." More of the story
of Micah, who had his own little shrine and his own gods.

Judges 19:1--"In those days, when there was no king in Israel . . ." And
then there follows the story of the rape of the Levite's concubine. Another
interesting, yet horrible story that you may want to read again.

Judges 21:25--[the very last verse in the Book of Judges] "In those days
there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own
eyes." And this immediately follows the kidnapping, by the Benjaminites, of
girls from Shiloh so that the tribe of Benjamin might not be utterly cut
off.

The book of Judges, as I'm sure you are aware, is a saga of repeated
idolatry in Israel, followed by repentance, deliverance by a judge,
backsliding into idolatry again, repentance, delivery, and so on throughtout
the book. These cycles occasionally are broken by stories, like the story of
Micah, the Levite's concubine, and the kidnaping of the girls of Shiloh. It
hardly paints a picture of an Israelite utopia.

Now, to be sure, the time of the Kings, while more orderly, was not more
righteous. But I would insist that a thorough going libertarianism is not a
scriptural ideal. Nor is it a good prescription for our times.

by: ingreif

02-27-2010 @ 1:26am

seriously why are we argueing about this. WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT PERIOD. We need to reel in spending. We are borrowing money our kids wont even be able to pay back. whats the point in saying we will give to the poor or needy when we dont have the money in the first place. We cant pay for something we dont have the money to use to pay for it. medicare and medicaid have how much wasted money from fraud. lets fix this first and see how many more people we can cover with the extra money we get. Coulkd we maybe try ideas that dont cost money first see how much this helps then go from there. Why the need to completely change it. Lets not foget the unions and how much they cost us. if the federal government had charge of health care GUESS WHO benefits the greatest unions. surprise surprise. there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much dishonesty on both sides its pathetic. WE ALL know this but ignore it. Polls are dishonest anyone who knows how to do it can make them say what they want. And speaking of half truths good gooly what politition tells the whole truth. Obama has told some seriouse half truths if not flat out lies. Heck they all have. Our government is in sad sad shape. Its abviouse after a year change and hope will have to what for some more honest polititions, if such exsist.

by: ckgmail

02-25-2010 @ 6:28pm

That sentence is used a couple of times in the book of Judges to introduce some pretty bad stuff.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 6:38pm

Apparently some polls have indicated that
a majority of Americans favor universal heallth
care w/ a single payer system.

by: jesse3

02-24-2010 @ 7:04pm

"At least one Republican Congress member is saying that the American people oppose the President's health-care reform proposal. He is correct. A recent Rasmussen poll reports that 56% of its respondents strongly oppose President Obama's health-care reform."

"This Congress member told the partial truth. This is dishonest."

Sorry, Valerie, I'm not computing. Was he telling the truth or wasn't he?

And you can change opinions on any piece of legislation by giving specifics here and there. Obviously, if you emphasize positive aspects of the legislation in a poll, you will shift opinions in a positive direction. And guess what? If you emphasize negative aspects of the legislation--and there are many in this piece--you will shift opinion in a negative direction. Saying "the public supports specific proposals" is not very meaningful.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:05pm

Everyone knows that you can get widely differing results from polls just by stating the question in a different way. So it's really not fair to call the Congressman a liar just because cited the results of a single poll.

Also, one of the main reasons for the intense fight over the issue is this tendency to cast it in absolute moral categories. It's not true that "universal health care is a moral good." We know from the Bible that helping the poor is good for individuals. And we know that withholding help from someone you know needs help when you have the means to help is immoral.

However, there are spheres of responsibility that put limits on my obligations to help others. At the extreme, I'm not responsible for everyone in the world. In addition, those closest to the victim and family share the greatest responsibility. My response to the victim should be voluntary; coerced charity is not much less than theft.

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirments of morality in the Bible.

We should refrain from casting political issues as absolute moral issues. Government paid insurance is just one of many possible ways to help provide healthcare to the poor. Preferring one of those alternatives is not immoral.

by: BlueDeacon

02-24-2010 @ 7:15pm

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirements of morality in the Bible.

Here's a different perspective: Suppose someone actually dies because he/she couldn't get health insurance for any of a number of different reasons (and this is more than a hypothetical). Some would put that on a par with police or fire protection. At that point it becomes more than an issue of "charity"; it's actually about justice.

by: ckgmail

02-27-2010 @ 12:04am

The clause, "In those days there was no king in Israel" occurs four times in
the Book of Judges:
Judges 17:5-6 from NRSV--"This man Micah had a shrine and he made an ephod
and teraphim, and installed one of his sons, who became his priest. In those
days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their
own eyes." This is near the beginning of the story of Micah setting up the
Danite shrine famous later for its bull worship. Very interesting story. You
might want to read again if you haven't read it lately.

Judges 18:1--"In those days there was no king in Israel. And in those days
the tribe of Dan was seeking for itself a territory . . ." More of the story
of Micah, who had his own little shrine and his own gods.

Judges 19:1--"In those days, when there was no king in Israel . . ." And
then there follows the story of the rape of the Levite's concubine. Another
interesting, yet horrible story that you may want to read again.

Judges 21:25--[the very last verse in the Book of Judges] "In those days
there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own
eyes." And this immediately follows the kidnapping, by the Benjaminites, of
girls from Shiloh so that the tribe of Benjamin might not be utterly cut
off.

The book of Judges, as I'm sure you are aware, is a saga of repeated
idolatry in Israel, followed by repentance, deliverance by a judge,
backsliding into idolatry again, repentance, delivery, and so on throughtout
the book. These cycles occasionally are broken by stories, like the story of
Micah, the Levite's concubine, and the kidnaping of the girls of Shiloh. It
hardly paints a picture of an Israelite utopia.

Now, to be sure, the time of the Kings, while more orderly, was not more
righteous. But I would insist that a thorough going libertarianism is not a
scriptural ideal. Nor is it a good prescription for our times.

by: histrogeek

02-24-2010 @ 7:32pm

Biblical law specifically stated that the poor of Israel were to be carried for. In part this was to be accomplished through individual acts of charity, but also through government action; these are law codes we're talking about. So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor? Isn't that enforced charity or theft?

And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts. The judgment fell on the community as a whole.

Finally, you talk about moral hazard, a favorite topic of certain economic theorist. I'll bring up another, negative externality (doesn't have the same ring I know). A business may save money by eliminating health insurance. They also save money by keeping taxes low because there is no public health insurance. Now say one of their employees gets TB or H1N1. They spread it to their family, then mine and throughout the community. So now we all pay, but the business has effectively gotten a big break. They don't pay any more than the rest of us, even though they got the benefit of high profits.

by: ingreif

02-26-2010 @ 11:26pm

seriously why are we argueing about this. WE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO DO IT PERIOD. We need to reel in spending. We are borrowing money our kids wont even be able to pay back. whats the point in saying we will give to the poor or needy when we dont have the money in the first place. We cant pay for something we dont have the money to use to pay for it. medicare and medicaid have how much wasted money from fraud. lets fix this first and see how many more people we can cover with the extra money we get. Coulkd we maybe try ideas that dont cost money first see how much this helps then go from there. Why the need to completely change it. Lets not foget the unions and how much they cost us. if the federal government had charge of health care GUESS WHO benefits the greatest unions. surprise surprise. there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much dishonesty on both sides its pathetic. WE ALL know this but ignore it. Polls are dishonest anyone who knows how to do it can make them say what they want. And speaking of half truths good gooly what politition tells the whole truth. Obama has told some seriouse half truths if not flat out lies. Heck they all have. Our government is in sad sad shape. Its abviouse after a year change and hope will have to what for some more honest polititions, if such exsist.

by: BuckeyeDon

02-24-2010 @ 7:39pm

Thank you, Valerie, for writing this column. I was just in an online discussion with someone who insisted that only 30% of Americans support the health care bill. I was able to show him that this was not really true.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 6:38pm

Apparently some polls have indicated that
a majority of Americans favor universal heallth
care w/ a single payer system.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 6:38pm

Apparently some polls have indicated that
a majority of Americans favor universal heallth
care w/ a single payer system.

by: jesse3

02-24-2010 @ 7:04pm

"At least one Republican Congress member is saying that the American people oppose the President's health-care reform proposal. He is correct. A recent Rasmussen poll reports that 56% of its respondents strongly oppose President Obama's health-care reform."

"This Congress member told the partial truth. This is dishonest."

Sorry, Valerie, I'm not computing. Was he telling the truth or wasn't he?

And you can change opinions on any piece of legislation by giving specifics here and there. Obviously, if you emphasize positive aspects of the legislation in a poll, you will shift opinions in a positive direction. And guess what? If you emphasize negative aspects of the legislation--and there are many in this piece--you will shift opinion in a negative direction. Saying "the public supports specific proposals" is not very meaningful.

by: jesse3

02-24-2010 @ 7:04pm

"At least one Republican Congress member is saying that the American people oppose the President's health-care reform proposal. He is correct. A recent Rasmussen poll reports that 56% of its respondents strongly oppose President Obama's health-care reform."

"This Congress member told the partial truth. This is dishonest."

Sorry, Valerie, I'm not computing. Was he telling the truth or wasn't he?

And you can change opinions on any piece of legislation by giving specifics here and there. Obviously, if you emphasize positive aspects of the legislation in a poll, you will shift opinions in a positive direction. And guess what? If you emphasize negative aspects of the legislation--and there are many in this piece--you will shift opinion in a negative direction. Saying "the public supports specific proposals" is not very meaningful.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:05pm

Everyone knows that you can get widely differing results from polls just by stating the question in a different way. So it's really not fair to call the Congressman a liar just because cited the results of a single poll.

Also, one of the main reasons for the intense fight over the issue is this tendency to cast it in absolute moral categories. It's not true that "universal health care is a moral good." We know from the Bible that helping the poor is good for individuals. And we know that withholding help from someone you know needs help when you have the means to help is immoral.

However, there are spheres of responsibility that put limits on my obligations to help others. At the extreme, I'm not responsible for everyone in the world. In addition, those closest to the victim and family share the greatest responsibility. My response to the victim should be voluntary; coerced charity is not much less than theft.

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirments of morality in the Bible.

We should refrain from casting political issues as absolute moral issues. Government paid insurance is just one of many possible ways to help provide healthcare to the poor. Preferring one of those alternatives is not immoral.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:05pm

Everyone knows that you can get widely differing results from polls just by stating the question in a different way. So it's really not fair to call the Congressman a liar just because cited the results of a single poll.

Also, one of the main reasons for the intense fight over the issue is this tendency to cast it in absolute moral categories. It's not true that "universal health care is a moral good." We know from the Bible that helping the poor is good for individuals. And we know that withholding help from someone you know needs help when you have the means to help is immoral.

However, there are spheres of responsibility that put limits on my obligations to help others. At the extreme, I'm not responsible for everyone in the world. In addition, those closest to the victim and family share the greatest responsibility. My response to the victim should be voluntary; coerced charity is not much less than theft.

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirments of morality in the Bible.

We should refrain from casting political issues as absolute moral issues. Government paid insurance is just one of many possible ways to help provide healthcare to the poor. Preferring one of those alternatives is not immoral.

by: BlueDeacon

02-24-2010 @ 7:15pm

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirements of morality in the Bible.

Here's a different perspective: Suppose someone actually dies because he/she couldn't get health insurance for any of a number of different reasons (and this is more than a hypothetical). Some would put that on a par with police or fire protection. At that point it becomes more than an issue of "charity"; it's actually about justice.

by: BlueDeacon

02-24-2010 @ 7:15pm

Government guaranteed health insurance goes far beyond the moral requirements for charity of the Bible. It takes by force from one group and gives to another without first checking that the receiver, his neighbors or his family have fulfilled their responsibilities. It creates a moral hazard that encourages risky behavior. So it's not at all clear that government paid insurance is a moral good because it ignores many of the requirements of morality in the Bible.

Here's a different perspective: Suppose someone actually dies because he/she couldn't get health insurance for any of a number of different reasons (and this is more than a hypothetical). Some would put that on a par with police or fire protection. At that point it becomes more than an issue of "charity"; it's actually about justice.

by: histrogeek

02-24-2010 @ 7:32pm

Biblical law specifically stated that the poor of Israel were to be carried for. In part this was to be accomplished through individual acts of charity, but also through government action; these are law codes we're talking about. So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor? Isn't that enforced charity or theft?

And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts. The judgment fell on the community as a whole.

Finally, you talk about moral hazard, a favorite topic of certain economic theorist. I'll bring up another, negative externality (doesn't have the same ring I know). A business may save money by eliminating health insurance. They also save money by keeping taxes low because there is no public health insurance. Now say one of their employees gets TB or H1N1. They spread it to their family, then mine and throughout the community. So now we all pay, but the business has effectively gotten a big break. They don't pay any more than the rest of us, even though they got the benefit of high profits.

by: histrogeek

02-24-2010 @ 7:32pm

Biblical law specifically stated that the poor of Israel were to be carried for. In part this was to be accomplished through individual acts of charity, but also through government action; these are law codes we're talking about. So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor? Isn't that enforced charity or theft?

And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts. The judgment fell on the community as a whole.

Finally, you talk about moral hazard, a favorite topic of certain economic theorist. I'll bring up another, negative externality (doesn't have the same ring I know). A business may save money by eliminating health insurance. They also save money by keeping taxes low because there is no public health insurance. Now say one of their employees gets TB or H1N1. They spread it to their family, then mine and throughout the community. So now we all pay, but the business has effectively gotten a big break. They don't pay any more than the rest of us, even though they got the benefit of high profits.

by: BuckeyeDon

02-24-2010 @ 7:39pm

Thank you, Valerie, for writing this column. I was just in an online discussion with someone who insisted that only 30% of Americans support the health care bill. I was able to show him that this was not really true.

by: BuckeyeDon

02-24-2010 @ 7:39pm

Thank you, Valerie, for writing this column. I was just in an online discussion with someone who insisted that only 30% of Americans support the health care bill. I was able to show him that this was not really true.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:56pm

People die all the time from crime and fires, yet we don't consider the police or firemen immoral monsters for not preventing those deaths. In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it. I have heard of people dieing in an emergency room because the doctors were swamped and couldn't get to them in time.

But no one dies from lack of insurance; it's medically impossible. You could make the dubious claim that because they lacked insurance they didn't get the preventive care that might have given them better health.

But let's assume the absolutely worst case scenario and say that a hospital refused treatment for a critically ill person because he didn't have insurance and that person died. Before we condemn the hospital for acting immorally, we need to know what efforts the patient made to improve his health and pay for healthcare or insurance. We need to know what his neighbors, church, and family did, for they are the first line of defense. Then we need to know if the hospital could have saved the patient, because if the illness is advanced to the point that he faces death, hospitalization may not help.

You would have to be much more specific about a particular case to determine if the death of the patient was an injustice or an immoral act.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 7:56pm

People die all the time from crime and fires, yet we don't consider the police or firemen immoral monsters for not preventing those deaths. In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it. I have heard of people dieing in an emergency room because the doctors were swamped and couldn't get to them in time.

But no one dies from lack of insurance; it's medically impossible. You could make the dubious claim that because they lacked insurance they didn't get the preventive care that might have given them better health.

But let's assume the absolutely worst case scenario and say that a hospital refused treatment for a critically ill person because he didn't have insurance and that person died. Before we condemn the hospital for acting immorally, we need to know what efforts the patient made to improve his health and pay for healthcare or insurance. We need to know what his neighbors, church, and family did, for they are the first line of defense. Then we need to know if the hospital could have saved the patient, because if the illness is advanced to the point that he faces death, hospitalization may not help.

You would have to be much more specific about a particular case to determine if the death of the patient was an injustice or an immoral act.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:13pm

Clearly the Bible commands the godly to care for the poor. But how much and who should do it. I don't think the Mosaic law instructs the state to do it. If that were the case, the laws requiring care for the poor would have specific penalties for breaking them, as the criminal laws reqarding theft and murder do. In other words, you could go to jail or be fined for not giving to the poor. In addition, charity should be voluntary. If the state does it through taxation, then it's not voluntary. One could argue that it's theft.

"So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor?"

So did the Mosaic law provide penalties for refusing to do so? Could the poor take a farmer to court and sue for damages? You could do that under the Mosaic law for theft or fraud, but not for breaking the poor laws. I think that indicates that God wanted charity to be voluntary. He would personally deal with violators.

But even if the Mosaic law criminalized neglect of the poor, that places no requirement on us to do the same. All that the Mosaic law requires of us is the principle that we care for the poor. How we do it is up to us.

"And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts."

As I wrote above, God dealt personally with those who neglected the poor, and he judged the entire nation for it, too. But that doesn't mean he made taking care of the poor the state's responsibility. Also, the condemnation of the rich in the OT was not about neglect or exploitation, it was about the nobility abusing their power in government to steal from the poor.

"I'll bring up another, negative externality"

I would quibble that your scenario is an externality of the business's decision, but that's not important. The important point is sphere's of responsibility. You're scenario assumes that the business, and only the business, is responsible for the health of its employees. It is not. The employee is responsible first, then his family, friends, church, neighbors, etc. in concentric circles radiating out from him. The business is not responsible for the health of employees; it is responsible to pay a market wage for work; that's all.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:13pm

Clearly the Bible commands the godly to care for the poor. But how much and who should do it. I don't think the Mosaic law instructs the state to do it. If that were the case, the laws requiring care for the poor would have specific penalties for breaking them, as the criminal laws reqarding theft and murder do. In other words, you could go to jail or be fined for not giving to the poor. In addition, charity should be voluntary. If the state does it through taxation, then it's not voluntary. One could argue that it's theft.

"So is legally requiring land owners not to glean their fields or reap at the corners somehow not forcing them to give to the poor?"

So did the Mosaic law provide penalties for refusing to do so? Could the poor take a farmer to court and sue for damages? You could do that under the Mosaic law for theft or fraud, but not for breaking the poor laws. I think that indicates that God wanted charity to be voluntary. He would personally deal with violators.

But even if the Mosaic law criminalized neglect of the poor, that places no requirement on us to do the same. All that the Mosaic law requires of us is the principle that we care for the poor. How we do it is up to us.

"And the Prophets condemned exploitation and neglect of the poor without any distinction between public or private acts."

As I wrote above, God dealt personally with those who neglected the poor, and he judged the entire nation for it, too. But that doesn't mean he made taking care of the poor the state's responsibility. Also, the condemnation of the rich in the OT was not about neglect or exploitation, it was about the nobility abusing their power in government to steal from the poor.

"I'll bring up another, negative externality"

I would quibble that your scenario is an externality of the business's decision, but that's not important. The important point is sphere's of responsibility. You're scenario assumes that the business, and only the business, is responsible for the health of its employees. It is not. The employee is responsible first, then his family, friends, church, neighbors, etc. in concentric circles radiating out from him. The business is not responsible for the health of employees; it is responsible to pay a market wage for work; that's all.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:14pm

I'm not opposed to the public option. In other posts I expressed my support for it for practical reason. My argument here is that it's not a moral issue; it's a practical issue. And casting it as a moral issue only clouds it and makes agreement on practical matters more difficult.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 8:14pm

I'm not opposed to the public option. In other posts I expressed my support for it for practical reason. My argument here is that it's not a moral issue; it's a practical issue. And casting it as a moral issue only clouds it and makes agreement on practical matters more difficult.

by: Jesusistheway

02-24-2010 @ 8:41pm

I was under the impression that, in ancient Israel, their religion and their government were indistinguishable. Ironically, we are told that the US is a secular nation. What's fascinating is that"we" want a wall of separation between religion and government, but we also want our government to act morally when it comes to issues such as health care, climate change, racial relations. But when it comes to issues like abortion and homosexuality, government shouldn't and can't legislate morality.

I'm all for a single-payer system, but I'm also in favor of a ban on abortions in the country. Both are based on a moral view and a desire to do unto others.....unfortunately, too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good.

by: Jesusistheway

02-24-2010 @ 8:41pm

I was under the impression that, in ancient Israel, their religion and their government were indistinguishable. Ironically, we are told that the US is a secular nation. What's fascinating is that"we" want a wall of separation between religion and government, but we also want our government to act morally when it comes to issues such as health care, climate change, racial relations. But when it comes to issues like abortion and homosexuality, government shouldn't and can't legislate morality.

I'm all for a single-payer system, but I'm also in favor of a ban on abortions in the country. Both are based on a moral view and a desire to do unto others.....unfortunately, too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good.

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 9:01pm

Yes the religion and government were the same; Israel was a theocracy. But even in that theocracy God limited the power of the state and reserved judgment on some things for himself. In fact, Israel under the Judges is a libertarians dream come true!

"too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good."

It's more accurate to say that people have different ideas of what constitutes the "greater good."

by: fundamentalist

02-24-2010 @ 9:01pm

Yes the religion and government were the same; Israel was a theocracy. But even in that theocracy God limited the power of the state and reserved judgment on some things for himself. In fact, Israel under the Judges is a libertarians dream come true!

"too many people are rooted in ideology and partisanship instead of the greater good."

It's more accurate to say that people have different ideas of what constitutes the "greater good."

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 9:18pm

In the days of the Judges "there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes." I fear the latter clause would prevail in a strictly libertarian society.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 9:18pm

In the days of the Judges "there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes." I fear the latter clause would prevail in a strictly libertarian society.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:32pm

This is true. When polls specifically ask if Americans support Medicare for Everyone, 2/3 of the respondents say yes! That's a pretty clear, pretty unambiguous question - kind of hard to spin - which is why the consistent, 2/3 YES answer to THAT poll question is hardly ever mentioned.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:32pm

This is true. When polls specifically ask if Americans support Medicare for Everyone, 2/3 of the respondents say yes! That's a pretty clear, pretty unambiguous question - kind of hard to spin - which is why the consistent, 2/3 YES answer to THAT poll question is hardly ever mentioned.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 11:35pm

Nobody wants Medicare for All except 2/3 of the people. That's why that poll is hardly ever mentioned.

by: ckgmail

02-24-2010 @ 11:35pm

Nobody wants Medicare for All except 2/3 of the people. That's why that poll is hardly ever mentioned.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:46pm

It's the difference between opposing what people BELIEVE is the proposal VS supporting what is actually IN the proposal. Republicans have done a masterful job lying about and distorting this proposal. Many people who believe they oppose it based on the lies they've been told, find that they support it when they learn the truth.

So, yes, this Congress member was dishonest - twice - first in lying about the proposal initially specifically to undermine support, and then in presenting the opposition to the distorted version as opposition to the actual proposal.

by: Patricia

02-24-2010 @ 11:46pm

It's the difference between opposing what people BELIEVE is the proposal VS supporting what is actually IN the proposal. Republicans have done a masterful job lying about and distorting this proposal. Many people who believe they oppose it based on the lies they've been told, find that they support it when they learn the truth.

So, yes, this Congress member was dishonest - twice - first in lying about the proposal initially specifically to undermine support, and then in presenting the opposition to the distorted version as opposition to the actual proposal.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 12:09am

Your comments sound so legalistic and pharisaical to me, and I just don't see where your interpretation fits with the command Jesus gave us as His followers.

I cannot remember a single instance in the New Testament when a sick person came to Jesus and He stopped to ascertain whether or not that person, their family, or their neighbors had fulfilled their "responsibilities" before healing.

Jesus healed the sick.

Jesuis commanded us to love others as He loves us, and that love repeatedly, fundamentally included healing the sick.

This is absolutely a moral issue. It's more than a moral issue - it's a spiritual issue.As is lying, as is distortion. Christians ought to refrain from using dishonesty to promote their desired outcomes. If the truth will not suffice as the means,then it's time to take a closer look at the ends.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 12:09am

Your comments sound so legalistic and pharisaical to me, and I just don't see where your interpretation fits with the command Jesus gave us as His followers.

I cannot remember a single instance in the New Testament when a sick person came to Jesus and He stopped to ascertain whether or not that person, their family, or their neighbors had fulfilled their "responsibilities" before healing.

Jesus healed the sick.

Jesuis commanded us to love others as He loves us, and that love repeatedly, fundamentally included healing the sick.

This is absolutely a moral issue. It's more than a moral issue - it's a spiritual issue.As is lying, as is distortion. Christians ought to refrain from using dishonesty to promote their desired outcomes. If the truth will not suffice as the means,then it's time to take a closer look at the ends.

by: BlueDeacon

02-25-2010 @ 2:14am

There's a difference. There was no need for a legislature in ancient Israel because there was no need to make more civil laws -- they had already been given.

by: BlueDeacon

02-25-2010 @ 2:14am

There's a difference. There was no need for a legislature in ancient Israel because there was no need to make more civil laws -- they had already been given.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 2:56am

Yes...insurance corporations don't want it...pharmaceutical corporations don't want it...their high-paid lobbyists don't want it...members of Congress who would lose access to the funding don't want it...no one making a buck from jacking up prices wants it...too bad about the majority of the American people.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 2:56am

Yes...insurance corporations don't want it...pharmaceutical corporations don't want it...their high-paid lobbyists don't want it...members of Congress who would lose access to the funding don't want it...no one making a buck from jacking up prices wants it...too bad about the majority of the American people.

by: ckgmail

02-25-2010 @ 12:15pm

So, we have the best government money can buy.

by: ckgmail

02-25-2010 @ 12:15pm

So, we have the best government money can buy.

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:32pm

And that's a bad thing?

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:32pm

And that's a bad thing?

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:50pm

Jesus did not give us government policies. He gave us guidance on personal behavior. Jesus was not a policy wonk. It's ridiculous to say that the state should follow the Sermon on the Mount. That's just sloppy hermeneutics. And since so many want to toss around the dishonesty charge, sloppy hermeneutics is dishonest handling of the word of God.

Of course personal behavior toward the poor and needy is a moral issue. To claim that I said otherwise is dishonest as well. I was writing about government policies. It's wrong to say that a particular government policy is the moral thing to do and to oppose that policy is immoral. Morality isn't just a matter of preference. Because I oppose one particular policy for helping the poor doesn't mean that I hate the poor and want to see them dead. That's such an old socialist ploy, and it's dishonest, too.

Socialists think that helping the poor is nothing but a matter of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, and since the rich won't voluntarily give as much as socialists want them to, the state needs to put a gun to their heads and take it by force. But does that really make the poor better off? In the very short run it does, but history has proven that in the long run it makes them, and everyone else poorer.

Should Congress pass the president's healthcare bill, even with a public option, the problem won't be solved. It will only increase demand for healthcare without increasing the supply at all. Even people with no economics background should be able to see that increasing demand for something with a fixed supply will cause huge price increases in medical care. The state can make criminals of those who don't want to buy insurance, but it will have to provide greater and greater subsidies because fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. At some point the state will go bankrupt because it can't get the taxes it needs to continue paying insurance premiums for those who can't afford them.

That's where European countries are today. They have taxed their people to the point that they can't increase revenue through taxes any more, yet the costs of socialism are growing rapidly. So they have huge budget deficits and borrow from the rest of the world to finance their socialism. What happens when the rest of the world quits buying their debt? Greece, is what happens. California is what happens. That's why the people elected Merkel and Sarkozy, to try to rein in socialist spending. But they haven't succeeded very well.

by: fundamentalist

02-25-2010 @ 12:50pm

Jesus did not give us government policies. He gave us guidance on personal behavior. Jesus was not a policy wonk. It's ridiculous to say that the state should follow the Sermon on the Mount. That's just sloppy hermeneutics. And since so many want to toss around the dishonesty charge, sloppy hermeneutics is dishonest handling of the word of God.

Of course personal behavior toward the poor and needy is a moral issue. To claim that I said otherwise is dishonest as well. I was writing about government policies. It's wrong to say that a particular government policy is the moral thing to do and to oppose that policy is immoral. Morality isn't just a matter of preference. Because I oppose one particular policy for helping the poor doesn't mean that I hate the poor and want to see them dead. That's such an old socialist ploy, and it's dishonest, too.

Socialists think that helping the poor is nothing but a matter of taking from the rich and giving to the poor, and since the rich won't voluntarily give as much as socialists want them to, the state needs to put a gun to their heads and take it by force. But does that really make the poor better off? In the very short run it does, but history has proven that in the long run it makes them, and everyone else poorer.

Should Congress pass the president's healthcare bill, even with a public option, the problem won't be solved. It will only increase demand for healthcare without increasing the supply at all. Even people with no economics background should be able to see that increasing demand for something with a fixed supply will cause huge price increases in medical care. The state can make criminals of those who don't want to buy insurance, but it will have to provide greater and greater subsidies because fewer and fewer people will be able to afford it. At some point the state will go bankrupt because it can't get the taxes it needs to continue paying insurance premiums for those who can't afford them.

That's where European countries are today. They have taxed their people to the point that they can't increase revenue through taxes any more, yet the costs of socialism are growing rapidly. So they have huge budget deficits and borrow from the rest of the world to finance their socialism. What happens when the rest of the world quits buying their debt? Greece, is what happens. California is what happens. That's why the people elected Merkel and Sarkozy, to try to rein in socialist spending. But they haven't succeeded very well.

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 1:54pm

Isn't the point of this article highlighting the dishonesty of using distortion and half-truths to advance an argument?

by: Patricia

02-25-2010 @ 1:54pm

Isn't the point of this article highlighting the dishonesty of using distortion and half-truths to advance an argument?

by: squeaky

02-25-2010 @ 2:09pm

Yup.

by: squeaky

02-25-2010 @ 2:09pm

Yup.

by: Ngchen

02-25-2010 @ 5:38pm

For the FD and PD, there is a moral case to be made that hypothetically if the PD had the clear opportunity to save an innocent victim, but does not due to the victim being unable to pay, then there is something wrong.

Now as for insurance, suppose someone who's diabetic and needs insulin dies because there is not money to pay for it. It's a similar situation, and one can reasonably argue that the rest of society should pay for this sort of medically necessary treatment.

(I'm acutely aware of the fact that societal resources are not unlimited, and that the money has to come from somewhere. That's why I believe so strongly about the need for overall cost reduction, and limiting "charitable" medical care to a no-frills package.)

by: Ngchen

02-25-2010 @ 5:38pm

For the FD and PD, there is a moral case to be made that hypothetically if the PD had the clear opportunity to save an innocent victim, but does not due to the victim being unable to pay, then there is something wrong.

Now as for insurance, suppose someone who's diabetic and needs insulin dies because there is not money to pay for it. It's a similar situation, and one can reasonably argue that the rest of society should pay for this sort of medically necessary treatment.

(I'm acutely aware of the fact that societal resources are not unlimited, and that the money has to come from somewhere. That's why I believe so strongly about the need for overall cost reduction, and limiting "charitable" medical care to a no-frills package.)

by: pawheel

02-25-2010 @ 6:03pm

Fundamentalist,

Have you heard the statistic that over 40,000 people annually die in this country because they lack health insurance? I heard that from several sources, including the largest nurses organization in California, as well as more than one national news show.
People dying from crimes and fires are things that happen quickly usually; a gunshot, burned to death because they couldn't get out of a car or building, etc. I really disagree with the comparison.
" In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it."
I had a friend who knew he had a problem, but also knew that he made very little money and couldn't afford insurance. When it became obvious to us that something was wrong, we took him to a "Christian" for profit hospital, the closest one to his home. They looked at him, told us that he had a problem that needed to be dealt with right away, and immediately sent us away with nothing but the phone number for Medicaid. Message received, come back when you have insurance. So we took him to a non profit hospital who took him in immediately but he didn't survive long enough to even finish the Chemo treatments. Now you have heard of that happening. His name was Eddie Razoux. If single payer insurance existed in this country as it does in every other major industrialized country I argue that he would have possibly still be here. You may not know people who don't go to get treatment due to the cost, but I could name others from personal experience. I'm sure may others could also. It's true that people regularly decide against treatment due to cost. Many people have lost their homes or had to file bankrupcy due to medical problems only.
And don't even get me started about how many people who had paid into their insurance for years while they are healthy, then got dropped from coverage once they got an expensive illness. Several major insurers have addmitted to this or had paperwork from the company brought public. Wellpoint is one.
Insurance companies can have up to 30% profit rates, as in California. How much healthcare could 30 % of a multi billion $ company buy?

by: pawheel

02-25-2010 @ 6:03pm

Fundamentalist,

Have you heard the statistic that over 40,000 people annually die in this country because they lack health insurance? I heard that from several sources, including the largest nurses organization in California, as well as more than one national news show.
People dying from crimes and fires are things that happen quickly usually; a gunshot, burned to death because they couldn't get out of a car or building, etc. I really disagree with the comparison.
" In the same way, people die every day from illnesses. If they died without insurance, then we need to determine if doctors or hospitals refused care for lack of insurance. You might find rare instances where that happened, but I have never heard of it."
I had a friend who knew he had a problem, but also knew that he made very little money and couldn't afford insurance. When it became obvious to us that something was wrong, we took him to a "Christian" for profit hospital, the closest one to his home. They looked at him, told us that he had a problem that needed to be dealt with right away, and immediately sent us away with nothing but the phone number for Medicaid. Message received, come back when you have insurance. So we took him to a non profit hospital who took him in immediately but he didn't survive long enough to even finish the Chemo treatments. Now you have heard of that happening. His name was Eddie Razoux. If single payer insurance existed in this country as it does in every other major industrialized country I argue that he would have possibly still be here. You may not know people who don't go to get treatment due to the cost, but I could name others from personal experience. I'm sure may others could also. It's true that people regularly decide against treatment due to cost. Many people have lost their homes or had to file bankrupcy due to medical problems only.
And don't even get me started about how many people who had paid into their insurance for years while they are healthy, then got dropped from coverage once they got an expensive illness. Several major insurers have addmitted to this or had paperwork from the company brought public. Wellpoint is one.
Insurance companies can have up to 30% profit rates, as in California. How much healthcare could 30 % of a multi billion $ company buy?