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Let's Get Theological on Health Care and Warfare

100226_091022-164-health-careDid you watch any of the health-care summit yesterday in Washington? Guess what? The Republicans and Democrats are divided and likely can't find any common ground. All the morning press reports suggest that the Democrats may now use the parliamentary procedure known as "reconciliation" to pass a health-care bill with a simple majority and without any Republicans.

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Rather than just repeat the arguments I've made repeatedly about the critical need for health-care reform in this country, and to include the tens of millions who are currently without health insurance (and sounding like a Democrat to some of you), let's get theological. Republicans, of course, have also used reconciliation before to pass measures they wanted-like the Bush tax cuts. So, let's look at that theologically.

First, the tax cuts that George Bush pushed through Congress overwhelmingly benefited the richest people in America-virtually all analysts agree with that fact. But many Americans haven't really calculated that the cost of those tax cuts for the rich was literally double what health-care reform is projected to cost. Double. Yet, there was not even a mention from Republicans, then or now, about the fiscal cost of such enormous tax cuts for the wealthiest people in America. And now they are doing everything they can to stoke public outrage about the cost of health-care reform (even though the Congressional Budget Office says the President's proposal will likely reduce the deficit by $100 billion over the next decade). How does that square with the biblical emphasis on the priority of the poor? There is simply no way to justify the habitual behavior of the current Republican party's clear preference for the rich over everybody else. Probably my best friend in the Congress was Republican Senator Mark Hatfield. The current Republican Party is a very different one than it was in Hatfield's time. I know he would not have liked the "theology" of his party today.

Second, the largest single government discretionary expense is for the military, for fighting wars. Military spending is also, historically, the most wasteful form of government spending with cost overruns, fiscal abuse, political corruption, and shameful pork barrel interests all part of standard operating procedures. So why is there a continual refusal from Republicans to apply their concerns about waste, fraud, and abuse about government expenditures to those expenditures? How does that square with the biblical call to peacemaking and the Christian doctrine that is, at least, suspicious of war as the answer to the problems of human conflict, which should either be outright rejected or very reluctantly accepted as an absolute last resort? There is simply no possible biblical mandate for giving the military a blank check as the current Republicans almost always do now. Again, this would have been bad theology for the evangelical Mark Hatfield, who courageously opposed the war in Vietnam.

This morning, I thankfully boarded a train from Los Angeles to San Diego to finish the last leg of my book tour. In the train station were mostly low- to moderate-income people-who travel a lot by train. As I looked into their faces, it struck me that the current Republican Party is mostly against spending government money that would benefit them, but it has no problem running up enormous deficits when the money is going to the rich or to war. And that is simply not a tenable theological position from a biblical point of view.

Certainly, there are different and legitimate points of view among Christians and others about how best to fix the broken health-care system, and there is no theological mandate supporting only one set of policy options. But the Republican alternative ideas for health-care reform would cover only 3 million more people, unlike the President's plan which covers ten times that many-30 million people. Again, how is that justifiable from a Christian perspective?

Of course, the Democratic proposals fall far short of what a genuine and comprehensive reform of our very broken health care system would look like-much shorter than their term "less than perfect." Their current proposals are, at best, "less bad" than the Republicans', because they are also in bed with wealthy and powerful special interests.

But the Republicans are not being truthful here. They are not really against government spending and for fiscal responsibility. They simply think the government should in its tax, spending, and regulatory policies do all it can to benefit the rich over low- and middle-income people, and to uncritically support the business of war. Again, there is just no way to theologically defend that commitment. Sorry. I am making that as a theological statement and not just as a politically partisan one. Anyone care to provide a theological foundation for the Republican policy preferences for the rich and for war? I would really like to see it.

portrait-jim-wallisJim Wallis is the author of Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street -- A Moral Compass for the New Economy, CEO of Sojourners and blogs at www.godspolitics.com.

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by: alivingsacrifice

02-26-2010 @ 6:40pm

Dear Mr. Wallis,

Thank you for watching the health summit and continually engaging in the political process. I would like to respectfully disagree with a few of your assertions in this post:

First, you assert at the beginning of your post that you will theologically critique the Republican position. There are many types of theology--biblical, systematic, etc.--but they always offer a biblical or biblically-derived doctrinal basis for discussion. There is nothing theological whatsoever about your critique besides the fact that you used the term several times. Please rebut me if you think I'm being unfair.

Second, many Christians--myself included--believe in many of the current Republican proposals (including that of Rep. Ryan) because we believe they will be more beneficial to the poor. Most Republicans are not anti-poor, but believe that the wealth production of average Americans do much more to alleviate poverty than government programs.

Third, your understanding of what your political opponents believe belies a lack of understanding of what they believe. Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people. That money inevitably gets put into the marketplace and is used thousands of different ways. In fact, if individuals and groups are enabled to pick their own health care plan on the free market--as opposed to being given a limited number of highly-regulated options through their employers--many more people would be insured, myself included.

I am morally-opposed to the current Democratic proposals for health care reform because they will run up the deficit and increase an already unbearable burden upon future generations and it will gradually remove the element of choice from the present generation in their decisions concerning health care. Money is an expression of our free will and morality. When our money is controlled through health care, our morality is as well.

Please actually engage the actual positions of Republicans and don't staple "theology" onto your political critiques.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 7:38pm

With respect to alivingsacrifice, Mr. Wallis' post is theological.

It is not, as you note, traditionally theological, in the sense that it falls within standard systematic concepts. However, it is still theological to the core.

For example, his first point is an attempt to help us think about the biblical priority for the poor, a profoundly biblical notion, and how that idea squares with governmental policies which over time seem to benefit those who have more than those that do not.

There is little in the policies in question that would lead a someone to conclude that the priority of policy makers have been the marginalized of our society. I believe Mr. Wallis was making the point that to say tax cuts for the wealthy help everyone in the end is a pretty convenient thing to be able to say. I think the question is, Is this actually true?

I would suggest that Mr. Wallis is well aware of the positions of Republicans on issues such as the trickle down theory as you point out. My guess is that he is simply rejecting the idea that it works, and is calling a spade, what in his mind is, a spade.

Instead, perhaps, we should ask, what kind of tax policy promotes the extension of a just society for all people. That would be the theological question to consider and Mr. Wallis is demonstrating that it is a question that is not asked, or reflected on well.

Secondly, his point that Republicans call current Democratic proposals waste, while turning a blind eye to military spending is on two fronts theological. One it calls into question the double-minded nature of condemning a policy for transgressions they themselves are making, calling to mind Jesus' words regarding specks and planks. Also, Mr. Wallis forces us to wrestle with the morality of spending to begin with. Spending will happen that is no doubt, but what we spend money on is both a moral and theological question.

It seems to me that Mr. Wallis is suggesting that the combination of tax cuts that, in the first place, help the wealthiest segments of society, and escalating costs for military engagements around the world, which few can argue are entirely an issue of national security, should make us question the moral ground on which these policy arguments are made.

In addition, the current health care projection includes a deficit reduction. Please demonstrate counter evidence to show that it will run up the deficit for our grandchildren. It is important, as Mr. Wallis argues in Rediscovering Values, that we make decisions based on the 7th generation out, but it seems to me that declaring a decision to be harmful to our grandchildren plays on our emotions and it would bolster the argument to engage in real dialogue about the truth of this health care reform bill's effect on the deficit. (I say this to both sides, give us specifics and let's dialogue about its affect on our children's children)

This doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your thoughts on the bill, although I would like to hear your thoughts on how reforming health care is a moral issue to be for, not simply to be against. Surely the concept of health care for people who do not have it is a noble goal. Specific implementation of that goal is where the debate should take place.

Theology that cannot contend with real life is not Christian. The best kinds of theology attempt to wrestle with the real life issues of the day and attempts to understand how the Scriptures should shape the way we think and act today. This is exactly what Mr. Wallis' post does.

by: Patricia

02-26-2010 @ 7:42pm

Republicans may BELIEVE that tax cuts to the rich get put back into the marketplace and gets used in thousands of different ways, but I think if one looks at the ways the money from the last tax-cuts got used, it can be amply demonstrated that that belief is not an accurate one.

by: jesse3

02-26-2010 @ 7:44pm

I don't think I could say it better than Alivingsacrifice said it (I agree...where was any theological point?), but I'd like to point out the painfully obvious fact that Wallis misses from the start: tax cuts do not cost the government ANYTHING because it's not their money to begin with. Health care costs it a lot. Is that really a difficult distinction to understand?

Like livingsacrifice, I see straw men everywhere in this post. I also see a complete unwillingness to engage with his opponents. I guess it's hard to be prophetic when you're discussing issues that good people can disagree on. I think this is why it is important for Wallis to portray the opposition in such a negative light.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:54pm

"They simply think the government should in its tax, spending, and regulatory policies do all it can to benefit the rich over low- and middle-income people, and to uncritically support the business of war."

The Republicans help the rich; the Democrats help the poor. I'm not a Republican and will not defend them. But my gosh! How many times does we have to hear that old lie repeated?

Republicans passed the tax cuts because mainstream (Keynesian) economic theory said doing so would stimulate the economy (remember 9/11 and the depression of 2001?). Any tax cut benefits the rich because the rich pay most of the taxes. The top 20% pay 80% of all federal taxes. How can you not help the rich by reducing taxes? But the Republicans were wrong. Mainstream economists were wrong. The tax cuts did not stimulate the economy and they increased the budget deficit and federal borrowing dramatically.

Democrats are wrong on the healthcare bill. It will help some poor people in the short run, but it will increase taxes and inflation and will reduce wages in the long run. That is sound economics. There are no free lunches. The federal government has taken in around 20% of gdp for the past 70 years, regardless of changes to the tax laws or which party controls the government. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have been able to change that. If you increased the taxes on the rich to 100%, the federal government would not take in any more than 20% of the gdp. So if the feds spend more than 20% of the gdp, they won't have enough money and they'll have to borrow to cover the deficit.

But if you want to get theological, let's talk about "thou shalt not steal" and whether the guv is a thief if he takes from the rich to give to the poor. Many great theologians have said it. Or what about the theology of forced charity? If a man enters your home and steals your jewels, is it OK if he gives them to a poor person? But it's OK for the government to do the same thing?

And what about justice? Justice causes the state to treat all citizens equally. Is robbing the rich to help the poor justice? Some people want us to believe that the only way to help the poor is through forced charity through taxation. Without it, the poor will die. But the Bible commands individuals to help the poor, not the state. Jesus was not a policy wonk.

As for the spending on the military, I couldn't agree more.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:55pm

You should look at a history of budget deficit projections. They are notoriously horrible! They can't even get the next quarter correct, let alone ten years in the future.

by: VasuMurti

03-05-2010 @ 3:20am

"Let's get theological on...warfare."

When the soldiers asked John the Baptist, "And what shall we do?" he replied, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Since they could not remain soldiers and practice nonviolence, this passage suggests he told them to put down their weapons and seek a peaceful profession.

Jesus, in his Sermon on the Mount, said: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthew 5:9) Expressing concern for God's children, he said, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

"In concrete and vivid precepts," writes Professor G.J. Heering in The Fall of Christianity, "the Sermon on the Mount set forth the character and conduct of those who really follow Jesus: of those who may really be called God's children; of those who shall submit to the rule of God, of those who shall enter His Kingdom; in short, of true Christians: the pure in heart, the meek, the peacemakers, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, and are willing to suffer for its sake. They are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

"And then follow the commandments; 'Ye shall keep yourselves from killing but also from revenge. And in place of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, resist not that which is evil; but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' Can one find one little implication in these words that does not plead for peace or that does not shrink from violence in every degree or form?

"Jesus does not give detached commands. He brings you whole being and doing and suffering under the compulsion of one single principle. 'Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy, but i say unto you: love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you: that ye may be sons of your Father which is in heaven.' (Matthew 5:43-45; Luke 6:27-38)

"'Love even your enemy!' This is the highest demand that can ever be made. This love of enemy is not just one virtue among many, but the fairest flower of all human conduct.

"It is recognized that these commands though lay stress on the inward disposition and have not the force of law, were certainly meant as concrete instructions for the followers of Jesus. They had to be obeyed. Their carrying out was counted on. Behind these injunctions, which admit no cleavage between conduct and character, stands the newly sent Ambassador of God with His 'But I say unto you.'

"Not only the war of aggression but also defensive warfare is ruled out by the Sermon on the Mount...the gospel condemns war...We have primarily to recognize, however hard it may be to do so, that the waging of war has no place in the moral and spiritual teachings of Jesus.

"Hippolytus, second century Christian father and historian, wrote what he considered the Apostolic tradition and so the authentic Christian teaching, maintained, that when he applied for admission to the Christian fellowship, a solider must refuse to kill men, even if he were commanded by his superiors to do so and also must not take an oath.

"Justin Martyr, the principle apologist of the early Church (Cir. AD 150) writes that:

"'Christians seek no earthly realm, but a heavenly, and that this will be a realm of peace. The prophecy of Isaiah-that swords shall be beaten into plowshares and spears to pruning hooks begins to find fulfillment in the missions of Christians. For we refrain from the making of war on our enemies, but gladly go to death for Christ's sake. Christians are warriors of a different world, peaceful fighters. For Caesar's soldiers possess nothing which they can lose more precious than their life, while our love goes out to that eternal life which God will give.'"

The apostle Paul taught that Christian warfare is spiritual. (Romans 13:12) According to Professor Heering: "Origen, the great Christian father of the second century, would hear nothing of earthly military service: he regarded it as wholly forbidden:

"'We Christians no longer take up sword against nation, nor do we learn war any more, having become children of peace for the sake of Jesus who is our leader. We do not serve as soldiers under the Emperor, even though he requires it.

"'Persons who possess authority to kill, or soldiers, should not kill at all, even when it is commanded of them. Every one who receives a distinctive leading position, or a magisterial power, and does not clothe himself in the weaponlessness of which is becoming to the Gospel, should be separated from the flock.'"

Although he was the son of a military officer, the early Christian father Tertullian (AD 200) was opposed to militarism and violence. Professor Heering observes: "The question Tertullian faces is not whether a Christian may be a soldier, but even whether a soldier may be allowed within the Church. He answers 'No.' The soldier who becomes a Christian ought to leave the army. 'One soul cannot be true to two lords-God and Caesar. How shall a Christian man wage war; nay, how shall he even be a soldier in peace time, without the sword, which the Lord has taken away?--for in disarming Peter he ungirded every soldier.'"

The great Church father Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, denounced war and wrote:

"The whole earth is drenched in adversaries' blood, and if murder is committed, privately it is a crime, but if it happens with State authority, courage is the name for it: not the goodness of the cause, but the greatness of the cruelty makes the abominations blameless."

Attacking even capital punishment, Cyprian wrote: "Christians are not allowed to kill, it is not permitted to guiltless to put even the guilty to death."

The Christian writer Lactantius of Bithinia wrote about the Sixth Commandment ("Thou shalt not kill") as follows:

"When God prohibits killing, he not only forbids us to commit brigandage, which is not allowed even by public laws, but he warns us not to do even those things which are legal among men. And so it will not be lawful for a just man to serve as a soldier for justice itself is his military service, nor to accuse anyone of a capital offense, because it makes no difference whether they kill with a sword or with a word, since killing itself is forbidden."

Erasmus, a fifteenth century Christian father, scholar and theologian, considered it a sacrelige for a soldier to stitch the cross on his standard. "The cross," he said, "is the banner and standard of Him who has overcome and triumphed, not by fighting and slaying, but by His own bitter death. With the cross do ye deprive the life of your brother, whose life was rescued by the cross?

"O, you cruel, shameless lips: how dare ye call Father whilst ye rob your brother of Life?

"'Hallowed by Thy name': how can the name of God be more dishonored than by war?

"'Thy kingdom come': will ye pray thus while ye scraple at nought and shrink from no bloodshed, however great?

"'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven': God desires peace and ye make war.

"Ye pray your common Father for daily bread, and meantime ye burn all your brother's rye and corn.

"How shamefully will ye say: 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them who trespass against us, while ye desire nothing else but to slay and to do mischief.

"Ye pray that ye may not come into danger or temptation and ye lead your brother into every sort of danger and temptation."

In her 1991 essay, "The Bible and Peace and War," Ursula King asks, "how are we to explain that Jesus, the founder of Christianity, is often called 'the Prince of Peace' and yet Western civilization so deeply shaped by the Christian story which is clearly pacifist in origin and essence, has become so militaristic from an early stage in its history?"

King quotes Christian pacifist John Ferguson from his 1977 study War and Peace in the World's Religions:

"The historic association of the Christian faith with nations of commercial enterprise, imperialistic expansion and technological advancement has meant that Christian peoples, although their faith is one of the most pacifistic in its origins, have a record of military activity second to none."

According to King, "In the early Church, pacifism was the dominant position up to the reign of Constantine, when Christianity became a state religion. Until then no Christian author approved of Christian participation in battle, whereas in AD 314 the Council of Arles decreed that Christians who gave up their arms in time of peace should be excommunicated."

In Theology and Social Structure, Robin Gill has written:

"The situation of the pre-Constantinian church appears all the more remarkable when it is realised that no major Christian church or denomination has been consistently pacifist since Constantine. Indeed, Christian pacifism has been largely confined to a small group of sects, such as the Quakers, Anabaptists, Mennonites, Brethren and Jehovah's Witnesses. Further, pacifists within the churches, as distinct from sects, have in times of war been barely tolerated by their fellow Christians."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. once said that in today's world the choice is either nonviolence or nonexistence.

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 7:57pm

If we stopped the "wars" we'd be able to pay for health care.
BTW- what is the projected health related costs for these "wars"? (ie. ptsd, prosthetics, veterans benefits, etc.)

by: sam80

03-04-2010 @ 6:34pm

Mr. Wallis,

Just like you can find any biblical verses to justify your support of being against the War on Terrorism by calling it a peacemaking, any Republican supporter, or non-Republican, can use the Bible to justify his support for this war. For example, any supporter of the War on Terrorism, can use Matthew 10:34-39. So, that will make you lose your argument.

Also, thanks to yours and other liberal Christians' influence, majority of people have voted for President Obama, who is not doing peacemaking, but trying to appease America's enemies, Muslim fundamentalists, just like Neville Chamberlain along with the approval of Roosevelt was appeasing the Nazis in the 1930s. Both of these groups, were and are against the freedom that Jesus and the apostles have preached about, and God is watching...

Your constant bashing of Republicans in the name of Christ is as bad as Tony Perkins's constant bashing of Democrats also done in the name of Christ. It makes me see you both as weak spiritual leaders.

by: prgrs_ev

03-03-2010 @ 5:34am

Point taken. I responded form my email account and I did not see the thread. With regards to reconciliation...we will see...

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:04pm

Thanks for the response. I agree that you are correct that it is not as simple as suggesting that Republicans are anti-poor and Democrats are anti-rich. Nothing can be that cut and dry.

Your statistics about the ineffectual tax cuts are perhaps what was meant about tax cuts costing us something (see other comments above).

About not stealing, how does that square with Jesus suggesting that we ought to give to Caesar what is, ie. government really does have some claim on our money? I'm just asking, I don't have a thought here really.

And I'm not sure justice is treating everyone the same. That is probably more accurately a description of fairness. Justice seems to be taking steps to right wrongs, to make a society just, which may in fact mean that things are not shared equally...which seems to suggest that the rich have a right to be rich but also the responsibility to bear more of the burden. Again, just wondering out loud.

by: Agjosh

03-03-2010 @ 5:20am

Umm...did you read this article? It is clearly written by someone from the religious left. That someone chose to put the word "theology" in the headline and then write a political paper. I actually tried to separate the two out in my post and addressed them separately. But let's be 100% clear: I am not the one confused here. I did not write this article and try to combine politics and theology. I simply have tried to show that the article did not achieve it's goal of being theological and then to discuss whether or not government/politics and theology were the same. Reread my posts throughout this string and you will clearly see that I do not believe the two are the same.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:07pm

Those are the kind of statistics and historical analysis that would help us to think well about the debate. As I'm not an economist, I wouldn't pretend to be able to analyze much but I'd like to hear... How do proponents of the bill respond when confronted with the same statistics? Then a response to their response etc.

A debate that progresses along those lines would be most informative and would help more people think through the issues as opposed to being, in a sense, captive to the talking points of politicians and pundits on both sides of the aisle.

by: prgrs_ev

03-03-2010 @ 3:49am

We will have to see if the legal argument is cogent and your political argument will rest on that outcome. And for the record politics is not theology, something that the religious right has consistently confused as you have.

by: dlondonx

02-26-2010 @ 8:09pm

I cannot fathom the willingness of a Christian to embrace with such passion Ayn Rands atheistic religion of worshipping the wealthy as saviors to society with their greed, which is really the basis of so called trickle down economics. If you read any history, there have been countless times where a powerful, wealthy elite (say, the French Aristrocracy) were able to use the government to protect their wealth and status, and, instead of making the lives of the common man better, they made them even worse. Spend any time reading Hugo (A Christian), or even Dickens, and you can see this fact plainly. Read Barrington Moore, and you can see a little more clearly just how some wealthy who wanted more power were able to stoke the flames of revolution to knock off their aristocratic rivals, which is a point that many wealth worshippers fail to realize in our day and age. And when we look at more recent history, we dont see trickle-down economics, but trickle-out economics, as capital has fled out of the US economy to India, China, and the rest of the far east where they can benefit from slavery, or near slavery labor conditions (for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations, read The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga) to make things, and provide services which most people agree are worse than they were only a few years ago. As for the theology of the post, what part of the bible do you read where there isnt a missive to help the poor, live peacefully, and avoid wealth idolization. Of course, if you just dont like these passages, you can check out the Conservative Bible Project for a more favorable reading (its kind of short, though).

by: Agjosh

03-03-2010 @ 2:29am

But you said earlier that socialized health care would bring the cost per person down. Mass. is not higher because of insurance companies, it is higher because it adopted socialized health care for its residents!!! Yet another illogical statement.

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 8:27pm

I just did some research. A British article addressed the "hidden costs" (death benefits and medical benefits) of the Afghan War to be 1/3 of the "expenditures". Extrapolating these numbers to our current $100B annual budget yields a hidden cost of $32B of GOVERNMENT provided health care per year. As Jim said, do we want to kill and maim people or do we want to heal them. That may not be a theological question to some, but how you choose to answer may reveal the God you worship.

by: Agjosh

03-03-2010 @ 2:26am

Politically speaking you are wrong. This bill does not qualify for reconciliation and this has been stated by individuals on both sides of the aisle as well as several individuals from the justice department - you know, the one's who actually are supposed to say if it fits or not.
More amazing though is that on a blog posing as a theological discussion, you just advocated the ends justifying the means, comparative morality, and wrong returned for wrong. How very theologically astute of you!! I'm sure that is what Jesus meant with the whole turn the other cheek thing.

by: Agjosh

03-03-2010 @ 2:21am

TO continue this discussion with you is fruitless. You make wild claims based on personal opinions, but you cannot back a single claim you make with a piece of evidence. For example, you state it is cheaper for government to run programs than private enterprise. That is simply wrong. You cannot show one study to back this claim. here are some examples where you are wrong: Job creation - the private sector average cost to create 1 new job is around 35,000 dollars - the government cost to create the same type job is over 200,000 dollars. While government postal services pricing continues to rise even while subsidized by tax dollars, private postal services offer higher levels of service for similar pricing and make a profit. The same is true of transportation.
You say "we are the government"...well, then why are we even discussing this? Not one poll shows that the majority of Americans favor the current proposed health care change.
As to a comparison of healthcare quality between America in other countries, again, every study shows you are wrong. Not to mention, numerous headlines share stories that illustrate this point. The prime minister in Canada needs surgery and choses to leave his country and go to New York to get the procedure done. Same with key leaders from Germany. If the politicians and leaders from these other countries are openly discouraging America from moving in this direction, shouldn't we heed their warning?

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:37pm

I have a degree in economics and have studied it for 30 years, but I have never seen an instance in which statistics settled a dispute, unless it was very minor. The problem with statistics is that each side does their analyses with different assumptions, different techniques, and different data sets, so comparisons are impossible. And each side thinks the other is completely idiotic for using their assumptions, data and methods. Sorry. I don't think statistics will help much.

by: Patricia

03-02-2010 @ 2:12pm

I understand hermeneutics just fine - my church has about 2000 years of hermeneutics under its belt :). And my church is just fine with government involvement in helping the poor and the sick. We have never had the focus on individualism that some denominations later adopted. Not every Christian denomination "deduces" the same message you do from scripture.

Jesus called his followers together from the beginning as a community. They lived together. They traveled together. They believed together. They huddled together in a room after the crucifixion, and they received the Holy Spirit together in that room.

One of the first things the apostles did was establish a formal mechanism to attend to the needs of widows, orphans and the poor. The community pooled their resources in common and the needs were taken care of from this common pool. Individuals gave their money to the group, and the group dispensed it. That's quite clear in the Acts of the Apostles.

Our government is us. It's the mechanism we use to address the needs of our national community. Just as the early church chose to establish an entity to address the needs of those less fortunate in the church community, we may choose to use the entity of our government to address the members of our national community. There is no theological proscription from doing so.

Your contention regarding private enterprise providing any service for less than government is simply not true - the nations with government-administered health care spend HALF what we do, and their populations are healthier - how do you explain that?

The countries who have government-administered health care have had cost increases, but theirs have been a fraction of what ours have been. If you are going to look at the problems they have, you have to also look at the problems WE have. Ours are much more severe. We have millions of people without access, we spend twice as much as the other nations do, and we are not as healthy as they are. Those are facts.

"Adequate" was a poor choice of words - I meant it in the sense that everyone is covered, VS our inadequate system that leaves millions without care.

Germany. There are others, but you asked me to name one :).

How would you reconcile your claim of "significant decline in health care quality, research, and ease of access" with the fact that the populations of every one of those countries are healthier than ours is? You don't get healthy populations with low-quality health care. Research takes place in those nations just as it does in ours - mostly through government-funded programs, also just like in ours.

It is true that for some non-critical specialist care people in other countries have to wait longer than we do, but when people are sick, they have comparable ease of access to doctors and care - I've lived in several of those countries and I've experienced health care in those countries - the access argument is greatly overblown.

My argument is not "ludicrous" - there is neither a prescription nor a proscription in the scriptures for using government to address the needs of the poor, there are examples of both individuals and groups addressing these needs in the scripture, and many Christian denominations find those group examples to be evidence that government can be a valid mechanism for addressing those needs. I believe your interpretation in favor of strictly individual action is flawed and incorrect.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:38pm

Exactly!

by: Patricia

03-02-2010 @ 1:29pm

Which is exactly why we need Medicare for Everyone - get those insurance corporations out of our health care :)!

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:42pm

"for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations,"

That's simply not true. Ask anyone in India or China if they are better off today than 10 years ago. Anyone. China has lifted over 300 million out of poverty in 30 years by abandoning a small amount of socialism. State redistribution, healthcare, or charity had nothing to do with it. India has lifted hundreds of millions from starvation poverty. They aren't doing as well as China because they still cling to their socialism.

by: fundamentalist

03-02-2010 @ 12:29pm

Massachusetts shows us the future of health care:

"

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:47pm

Excellent point. We still live in a finite world. There is so much good we could be doing with the money spent on the Iraq and Afghan wars. The first principle you learn in intro economics classes is opportunity costs. When you choose to do one thing, that means you have automatically prevented yourself from doing something else at the same time with the same money.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:53pm

True...but how do we move past fear mongering and actually discuss the issue? Is it a lost cause?

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 9:01pm

Honestly, I don't know. Fear mongering works well, that's why it is used so much.

by: ckgmail

02-26-2010 @ 9:17pm

Someone commented about tax cuts being spent, and improving the economy. Tax cuts for the rich do not do that. The Bush tax cuts simply increased the gap between the incomes and wealth of the poor and the very rich. I always hearken back to Isaiah chapter 5, "Woe to those who join house to house, and field to field" etc.

I'm with Jim. This is a theological moral issue. It is not really a conservative vs. liberal political issue.

by: ingreif

02-26-2010 @ 10:12pm

I dont think jim wallace really studies what he is about to write about. he just wings it with emotions. There is no theological answer to these two things in scripture. War is an horrible thing that just happens and always will. Its doing it the best we can and in trying to decide if its the right thing or not. Not an easy thing to decide. For one reconciliations is about finances, taxes and spending, NOT about health care So to use it does break the rules. And they apposed it when it was done So why would they do it know. thats MORAL jim to you. You make an awful lot of ASSUMPTIONS without actual facts. i think there is a rule for us against this. It amazes me how oftain you will discredit republicans but ignore democrates follies. But no we know your not a democrate. But alivingsacrifice is completely correct. i would love to see Jim actually have a discussion with such person. he might learn something, like how to actually look into what he is speaking about so he wont seem so dishonest and biased towards republicans.

by: sgillesp

02-26-2010 @ 10:16pm

Alivingsacrifice: I'm glad you used the word "believe" - as in, "Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people." We certainly have been told that for 30 years, and I too believed it for a long time. But in fact, now we see that the booming economy was a mirage, and that a small portion of the population made themselves much, much richer while most Americans lost ground in terms of buying power and salary in the last several decades. I suppose Republicans can believe whatever they want, but I am dumbfounded why Christians should believe it. Jesus-followers ought to be as highly suspicious of business and profit as government - all are the systems of sinful humanity and are earth-bound. All those things are tools, and it seems to me that when we buy into an ideology about the virtues of free markets, we've put our treasure in the wrong place. I will agree that government is a solution, either - but in some circumstances, it may be a better tool. In the health care reform debate, I think we've seen what unfettered private profit as motive has wrought: 1/6 of the population without access to health care, and many of us paying way too much to companies who orient themselves toward reducing care so they can keep more of the money. That sounds unjust to me, and so perhaps we need to use the government tool to change things. I do not believe that giving even more power to the business-model will produce anything but more injustice.

by: kansasmennonite

02-26-2010 @ 10:58pm

Maybe we should "give" money to the rich so the poor would prosper!

Your not interested in helping the poor-you're interested in keeping the status quo.

by: xfree9

02-26-2010 @ 11:28pm

The Caesar thing... Greg Boyd has a sermon on his website (gregboyd.org) that addresses this issue. Essentially, Jesus was being sarcastic and saying, "Well if it's got his imprint on it, give it back to him," the implication being, God owns everything, and if Caesar thinks he's all so special, give him his money. The point of that questions was to "trap" Jesus, so Jesus responded by not giving either side what they were hoping to trap him with.

Even some liberal theologians who likely would not believe gov't to be thieving from citizens have proposed such an interpretation. the point of the story is: God owns everything.

You are right about justice being the righting of wrongs, but once we agree upon that, we have to have a discussion on what "wrongs" have been committed. Everybody has a different set of preferences that determine what "wrongs" were committed. The idea of "shared equally" implies that there is a fixed amount of "wealth" out there, and for somebody to be richer, somebody else must be poorer. In some arenas (like politics), this is true. Defenders of a free market would say that in a truly free market, each person is free to choose that which benefits him, and is protected against being forced to make choices which are detrimental to him. In other words, if people are truly free, and their right to make peaceful trade agreements with others, the very logic and inherent nature of a willing trade means both parties are better off.

You are wondering out loud very good questions.

by: algalg

02-27-2010 @ 12:08am

Thanks for the response...at some level, I'm guessing Jesus was also speaking to the idea that God's kingdom doesn't operate within the same perameters as Caesar's; challenging his listeners to keep the power of Caesar in perspective...he may collect taxes but he isn't...etc. Certainly God owns everything, and earthly kings and kingdoms pale in comparison...

And I think you're right, the discussion of justice does come down to thinking through what the wrongs are...I think that was exactly the point of the original post by Jim, trying to discern where the injustices lie. I'm not saying I come down on each point where he does, just saying I think that is what he was doing.

by: Agjosh

02-27-2010 @ 1:50am

Numerous studies have shown that conservatives, republicans, right-wingers what ever you want to call us give more per capita (regardless of income level) than liberals by a significant amount. Not only do they give more, but they are three times more likely to personally serve those in need in a hands on manner. Please do not say I or others of my political persuasion are not interested in helping the poor based on your misunderstandings.

by: kansasmennonite

02-27-2010 @ 1:57am

You're getting socialism and communism mixed up.

by: Agjosh

02-27-2010 @ 2:00am

This article was in no way theological. Just because something is written with soemone's bias as a result even of their biblical interpretation, does not make the comment theological. Writing it on a page that uses scripture references to establish a code also does not make the article theological. Theology should apply to real life - no doubt, but good theology, exogetical theology - looks to scripture to change individual lives and then to impact real life and society. Good theology does not take a political bias, sprinkle in some (often twisted) scripture, and say "look how spiritual my view of the world is". This is wrong for both ends of the spectrum btw.

by: VasuMurti

03-05-2010 @ 1:20am

"Let's get theological on...warfare."

When the soldiers asked John the Baptist, "And what shall we do?" he replied, "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Since they could not remain soldiers and practice nonviolence, this passage suggests he told them to put down their weapons and seek a peaceful profession.

Jesus, in his Sermon on the Mount, said: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthew 5:9) Expressing concern for God's children, he said, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

"In concrete and vivid precepts," writes Professor G.J. Heering in The Fall of Christianity, "the Sermon on the Mount set forth the character and conduct of those who really follow Jesus: of those who may really be called God's children; of those who shall submit to the rule of God, of those who shall enter His Kingdom; in short, of true Christians: the pure in heart, the meek, the peacemakers, those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, and are willing to suffer for its sake. They are the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

"And then follow the commandments; 'Ye shall keep yourselves from killing but also from revenge. And in place of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, resist not that which is evil; but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' Can one find one little implication in these words that does not plead for peace or that does not shrink from violence in every degree or form?

"Jesus does not give detached commands. He brings you whole being and doing and suffering under the compulsion of one single principle. 'Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy, but i say unto you: love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, bless them that curse you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you: that ye may be sons of your Father which is in heaven.' (Matthew 5:43-45; Luke 6:27-38)

"'Love even your enemy!' This is the highest demand that can ever be made. This love of enemy is not just one virtue among many, but the fairest flower of all human conduct.

"It is recognized that these commands though lay stress on the inward disposition and have not the force of law, were certainly meant as concrete instructions for the followers of Jesus. They had to be obeyed. Their carrying out was counted on. Behind these injunctions, which admit no cleavage between conduct and character, stands the newly sent Ambassador of God with His 'But I say unto you.'

"Not only the war of aggression but also defensive warfare is ruled out by the Sermon on the Mount...the gospel condemns war...We have primarily to recognize, however hard it may be to do so, that the waging of war has no place in the moral and spiritual teachings of Jesus.

"Hippolytus, second century Christian father and historian, wrote what he considered the Apostolic tradition and so the authentic Christian teaching, maintained, that when he applied for admission to the Christian fellowship, a solider must refuse to kill men, even if he were commanded by his superiors to do so and also must not take an oath.

"Justin Martyr, the principle apologist of the early Church (Cir. AD 150) writes that:

"'Christians seek no earthly realm, but a heavenly, and that this will be a realm of peace. The prophecy of Isaiah-that swords shall be beaten into plowshares and spears to pruning hooks begins to find fulfillment in the missions of Christians. For we refrain from the making of war on our enemies, but gladly go to death for Christ's sake. Christians are warriors of a different world, peaceful fighters. For Caesar's soldiers possess nothing which they can lose more precious than their life, while our love goes out to that eternal life which God will give.'"

The apostle Paul taught that Christian warfare is spiritual. (Romans 13:12) According to Professor Heering: "Origen, the great Christian father of the second century, would hear nothing of earthly military service: he regarded it as wholly forbidden:

"'We Christians no longer take up sword against nation, nor do we learn war any more, having become children of peace for the sake of Jesus who is our leader. We do not serve as soldiers under the Emperor, even though he requires it.

"'Persons who possess authority to kill, or soldiers, should not kill at all, even when it is commanded of them. Every one who receives a distinctive leading position, or a magisterial power, and does not clothe himself in the weaponlessness of which is becoming to the Gospel, should be separated from the flock.'"

Although he was the son of a military officer, the early Christian father Tertullian (AD 200) was opposed to militarism and violence. Professor Heering observes: "The question Tertullian faces is not whether a Christian may be a soldier, but even whether a soldier may be allowed within the Church. He answers 'No.' The soldier who becomes a Christian ought to leave the army. 'One soul cannot be true to two lords-God and Caesar. How shall a Christian man wage war; nay, how shall he even be a soldier in peace time, without the sword, which the Lord has taken away?--for in disarming Peter he ungirded every soldier.'"

The great Church father Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, denounced war and wrote:

"The whole earth is drenched in adversaries' blood, and if murder is committed, privately it is a crime, but if it happens with State authority, courage is the name for it: not the goodness of the cause, but the greatness of the cruelty makes the abominations blameless."

Attacking even capital punishment, Cyprian wrote: "Christians are not allowed to kill, it is not permitted to guiltless to put even the guilty to death."

The Christian writer Lactantius of Bithinia wrote about the Sixth Commandment ("Thou shalt not kill") as follows:

"When God prohibits killing, he not only forbids us to commit brigandage, which is not allowed even by public laws, but he warns us not to do even those things which are legal among men. And so it will not be lawful for a just man to serve as a soldier for justice itself is his military service, nor to accuse anyone of a capital offense, because it makes no difference whether they kill with a sword or with a word, since killing itself is forbidden."

Erasmus, a fifteenth century Christian father, scholar and theologian, considered it a sacrelige for a soldier to stitch the cross on his standard. "The cross," he said, "is the banner and standard of Him who has overcome and triumphed, not by fighting and slaying, but by His own bitter death. With the cross do ye deprive the life of your brother, whose life was rescued by the cross?

"O, you cruel, shameless lips: how dare ye call Father whilst ye rob your brother of Life?

"'Hallowed by Thy name': how can the name of God be more dishonored than by war?

"'Thy kingdom come': will ye pray thus while ye scraple at nought and shrink from no bloodshed, however great?

"'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven': God desires peace and ye make war.

"Ye pray your common Father for daily bread, and meantime ye burn all your brother's rye and corn.

"How shamefully will ye say: 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them who trespass against us, while ye desire nothing else but to slay and to do mischief.

"Ye pray that ye may not come into danger or temptation and ye lead your brother into every sort of danger and temptation."

In her 1991 essay, "The Bible and Peace and War," Ursula King asks, "how are we to explain that Jesus, the founder of Christianity, is often called 'the Prince of Peace' and yet Western civilization so deeply shaped by the Christian story which is clearly pacifist in origin and essence, has become so militaristic from an early stage in its history?"

King quotes Christian pacifist John Ferguson from his 1977 study War and Peace in the World's Religions:

"The historic association of the Christian faith with nations of commercial enterprise, imperialistic expansion and technological advancement has meant that Christian peoples, although their faith is one of the most pacifistic in its origins, have a record of military activity second to none."

According to King, "In the early Church, pacifism was the dominant position up to the reign of Constantine, when Christianity became a state religion. Until then no Christian author approved of Christian participation in battle, whereas in AD 314 the Council of Arles decreed that Christians who gave up their arms in time of peace should be excommunicated."

In Theology and Social Structure, Robin Gill has written:

"The situation of the pre-Constantinian church appears all the more remarkable when it is realised that no major Christian church or denomination has been consistently pacifist since Constantine. Indeed, Christian pacifism has been largely confined to a small group of sects, such as the Quakers, Anabaptists, Mennonites, Brethren and Jehovah's Witnesses. Further, pacifists within the churches, as distinct from sects, have in times of war been barely tolerated by their fellow Christians."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. once said that in today's world the choice is either nonviolence or nonexistence.

by: whiteteacher

02-28-2010 @ 1:24am

This is a valid point, but the healthcare debate should be centered on systemic change. It is not a question of whether a person is giving or not giving to the poor, but whether the "system" allows change for the better in terms of healthcare for the people in the country. Similar to issues of individual racism versus institutional racism. Yes, someone can say that they never call someone the "n" word or "burn crosses in their yard" but that does not mean racism does not exist.

(Maybe not the best connection, but...) I also see it similar to building a wall along the Arizona-Mexico border to fix the immigration "problem." This does not address systemic challenges, but just serves as a checklist of things we do to say we have addressed immigration.

by: Mennoman

02-28-2010 @ 9:59am

"Even some liberal theologians who likely would not believe gov't to be thieving from citizens have proposed such an interpretation."

I think that that statement misstates the manner in which many liberal theologians view the Roman government. In what I have read, they [the Liberal theologians] found the Roman system oppressive and exploitative.

by: Mennoman

02-28-2010 @ 10:05am

I can see your point about Jim Wallis's alleged "unwillingness to engage with his opponents" if you define "engaging with one's opponents" as bowing down and accepting their diametrically opposed policy positions. Which you seem to do.

That, however, is not a reasonable definition for engagement. But then again, why would one expect reasonableness from a party whose avowed mission is to obstruct and make the country ungovernable?

by: alivingsacrifice

02-26-2010 @ 6:40pm

Dear Mr. Wallis,

Thank you for watching the health summit and continually engaging in the political process. I would like to respectfully disagree with a few of your assertions in this post:

First, you assert at the beginning of your post that you will theologically critique the Republican position. There are many types of theology--biblical, systematic, etc.--but they always offer a biblical or biblically-derived doctrinal basis for discussion. There is nothing theological whatsoever about your critique besides the fact that you used the term several times. Please rebut me if you think I'm being unfair.

Second, many Christians--myself included--believe in many of the current Republican proposals (including that of Rep. Ryan) because we believe they will be more beneficial to the poor. Most Republicans are not anti-poor, but believe that the wealth production of average Americans do much more to alleviate poverty than government programs.

Third, your understanding of what your political opponents believe belies a lack of understanding of what they believe. Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people. That money inevitably gets put into the marketplace and is used thousands of different ways. In fact, if individuals and groups are enabled to pick their own health care plan on the free market--as opposed to being given a limited number of highly-regulated options through their employers--many more people would be insured, myself included.

I am morally-opposed to the current Democratic proposals for health care reform because they will run up the deficit and increase an already unbearable burden upon future generations and it will gradually remove the element of choice from the present generation in their decisions concerning health care. Money is an expression of our free will and morality. When our money is controlled through health care, our morality is as well.

Please actually engage the actual positions of Republicans and don't staple "theology" onto your political critiques.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 7:38pm

With respect to alivingsacrifice, Mr. Wallis' post is theological.

It is not, as you note, traditionally theological, in the sense that it falls within standard systematic concepts. However, it is still theological to the core.

For example, his first point is an attempt to help us think about the biblical priority for the poor, a profoundly biblical notion, and how that idea squares with governmental policies which over time seem to benefit those who have more than those that do not.

There is little in the policies in question that would lead a someone to conclude that the priority of policy makers have been the marginalized of our society. I believe Mr. Wallis was making the point that to say tax cuts for the wealthy help everyone in the end is a pretty convenient thing to be able to say. I think the question is, Is this actually true?

I would suggest that Mr. Wallis is well aware of the positions of Republicans on issues such as the trickle down theory as you point out. My guess is that he is simply rejecting the idea that it works, and is calling a spade, what in his mind is, a spade.

Instead, perhaps, we should ask, what kind of tax policy promotes the extension of a just society for all people. That would be the theological question to consider and Mr. Wallis is demonstrating that it is a question that is not asked, or reflected on well.

Secondly, his point that Republicans call current Democratic proposals waste, while turning a blind eye to military spending is on two fronts theological. One it calls into question the double-minded nature of condemning a policy for transgressions they themselves are making, calling to mind Jesus' words regarding specks and planks. Also, Mr. Wallis forces us to wrestle with the morality of spending to begin with. Spending will happen that is no doubt, but what we spend money on is both a moral and theological question.

It seems to me that Mr. Wallis is suggesting that the combination of tax cuts that, in the first place, help the wealthiest segments of society, and escalating costs for military engagements around the world, which few can argue are entirely an issue of national security, should make us question the moral ground on which these policy arguments are made.

In addition, the current health care projection includes a deficit reduction. Please demonstrate counter evidence to show that it will run up the deficit for our grandchildren. It is important, as Mr. Wallis argues in Rediscovering Values, that we make decisions based on the 7th generation out, but it seems to me that declaring a decision to be harmful to our grandchildren plays on our emotions and it would bolster the argument to engage in real dialogue about the truth of this health care reform bill's effect on the deficit. (I say this to both sides, give us specifics and let's dialogue about its affect on our children's children)

This doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your thoughts on the bill, although I would like to hear your thoughts on how reforming health care is a moral issue to be for, not simply to be against. Surely the concept of health care for people who do not have it is a noble goal. Specific implementation of that goal is where the debate should take place.

Theology that cannot contend with real life is not Christian. The best kinds of theology attempt to wrestle with the real life issues of the day and attempts to understand how the Scriptures should shape the way we think and act today. This is exactly what Mr. Wallis' post does.

by: Patricia

02-26-2010 @ 7:42pm

Republicans may BELIEVE that tax cuts to the rich get put back into the marketplace and gets used in thousands of different ways, but I think if one looks at the ways the money from the last tax-cuts got used, it can be amply demonstrated that that belief is not an accurate one.

by: jesse3

02-26-2010 @ 7:44pm

I don't think I could say it better than Alivingsacrifice said it (I agree...where was any theological point?), but I'd like to point out the painfully obvious fact that Wallis misses from the start: tax cuts do not cost the government ANYTHING because it's not their money to begin with. Health care costs it a lot. Is that really a difficult distinction to understand?

Like livingsacrifice, I see straw men everywhere in this post. I also see a complete unwillingness to engage with his opponents. I guess it's hard to be prophetic when you're discussing issues that good people can disagree on. I think this is why it is important for Wallis to portray the opposition in such a negative light.

by: fundamentalist

03-01-2010 @ 6:12pm

Algalg, your questions are getting too deep for a blog. These aren't easy issues, as you know.

"I'm not sure justice is treating everyone the same."

You're right, but justice encompasses fairness. If the state treats people differently based on wealth or status, then it is being unfair, and therefore unjust. And when someone is treated unfairly, or wronged, then justice requires correcting that wrong, as you wrote.

"

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:54pm

"They simply think the government should in its tax, spending, and regulatory policies do all it can to benefit the rich over low- and middle-income people, and to uncritically support the business of war."

The Republicans help the rich; the Democrats help the poor. I'm not a Republican and will not defend them. But my gosh! How many times does we have to hear that old lie repeated?

Republicans passed the tax cuts because mainstream (Keynesian) economic theory said doing so would stimulate the economy (remember 9/11 and the depression of 2001?). Any tax cut benefits the rich because the rich pay most of the taxes. The top 20% pay 80% of all federal taxes. How can you not help the rich by reducing taxes? But the Republicans were wrong. Mainstream economists were wrong. The tax cuts did not stimulate the economy and they increased the budget deficit and federal borrowing dramatically.

Democrats are wrong on the healthcare bill. It will help some poor people in the short run, but it will increase taxes and inflation and will reduce wages in the long run. That is sound economics. There are no free lunches. The federal government has taken in around 20% of gdp for the past 70 years, regardless of changes to the tax laws or which party controls the government. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have been able to change that. If you increased the taxes on the rich to 100%, the federal government would not take in any more than 20% of the gdp. So if the feds spend more than 20% of the gdp, they won't have enough money and they'll have to borrow to cover the deficit.

But if you want to get theological, let's talk about "thou shalt not steal" and whether the guv is a thief if he takes from the rich to give to the poor. Many great theologians have said it. Or what about the theology of forced charity? If a man enters your home and steals your jewels, is it OK if he gives them to a poor person? But it's OK for the government to do the same thing?

And what about justice? Justice causes the state to treat all citizens equally. Is robbing the rich to help the poor justice? Some people want us to believe that the only way to help the poor is through forced charity through taxation. Without it, the poor will die. But the Bible commands individuals to help the poor, not the state. Jesus was not a policy wonk.

As for the spending on the military, I couldn't agree more.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:55pm

You should look at a history of budget deficit projections. They are notoriously horrible! They can't even get the next quarter correct, let alone ten years in the future.

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 7:57pm

If we stopped the "wars" we'd be able to pay for health care.
BTW- what is the projected health related costs for these "wars"? (ie. ptsd, prosthetics, veterans benefits, etc.)

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:04pm

Thanks for the response. I agree that you are correct that it is not as simple as suggesting that Republicans are anti-poor and Democrats are anti-rich. Nothing can be that cut and dry.

Your statistics about the ineffectual tax cuts are perhaps what was meant about tax cuts costing us something (see other comments above).

About not stealing, how does that square with Jesus suggesting that we ought to give to Caesar what is, ie. government really does have some claim on our money? I'm just asking, I don't have a thought here really.

And I'm not sure justice is treating everyone the same. That is probably more accurately a description of fairness. Justice seems to be taking steps to right wrongs, to make a society just, which may in fact mean that things are not shared equally...which seems to suggest that the rich have a right to be rich but also the responsibility to bear more of the burden. Again, just wondering out loud.

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by: alivingsacrifice

02-26-2010 @ 6:40pm

Dear Mr. Wallis,

Thank you for watching the health summit and continually engaging in the political process. I would like to respectfully disagree with a few of your assertions in this post:

First, you assert at the beginning of your post that you will theologically critique the Republican position. There are many types of theology--biblical, systematic, etc.--but they always offer a biblical or biblically-derived doctrinal basis for discussion. There is nothing theological whatsoever about your critique besides the fact that you used the term several times. Please rebut me if you think I'm being unfair.

Second, many Christians--myself included--believe in many of the current Republican proposals (including that of Rep. Ryan) because we believe they will be more beneficial to the poor. Most Republicans are not anti-poor, but believe that the wealth production of average Americans do much more to alleviate poverty than government programs.

Third, your understanding of what your political opponents believe belies a lack of understanding of what they believe. Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people. That money inevitably gets put into the marketplace and is used thousands of different ways. In fact, if individuals and groups are enabled to pick their own health care plan on the free market--as opposed to being given a limited number of highly-regulated options through their employers--many more people would be insured, myself included.

I am morally-opposed to the current Democratic proposals for health care reform because they will run up the deficit and increase an already unbearable burden upon future generations and it will gradually remove the element of choice from the present generation in their decisions concerning health care. Money is an expression of our free will and morality. When our money is controlled through health care, our morality is as well.

Please actually engage the actual positions of Republicans and don't staple "theology" onto your political critiques.

by: alivingsacrifice

02-26-2010 @ 6:40pm

Dear Mr. Wallis,

Thank you for watching the health summit and continually engaging in the political process. I would like to respectfully disagree with a few of your assertions in this post:

First, you assert at the beginning of your post that you will theologically critique the Republican position. There are many types of theology--biblical, systematic, etc.--but they always offer a biblical or biblically-derived doctrinal basis for discussion. There is nothing theological whatsoever about your critique besides the fact that you used the term several times. Please rebut me if you think I'm being unfair.

Second, many Christians--myself included--believe in many of the current Republican proposals (including that of Rep. Ryan) because we believe they will be more beneficial to the poor. Most Republicans are not anti-poor, but believe that the wealth production of average Americans do much more to alleviate poverty than government programs.

Third, your understanding of what your political opponents believe belies a lack of understanding of what they believe. Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people. That money inevitably gets put into the marketplace and is used thousands of different ways. In fact, if individuals and groups are enabled to pick their own health care plan on the free market--as opposed to being given a limited number of highly-regulated options through their employers--many more people would be insured, myself included.

I am morally-opposed to the current Democratic proposals for health care reform because they will run up the deficit and increase an already unbearable burden upon future generations and it will gradually remove the element of choice from the present generation in their decisions concerning health care. Money is an expression of our free will and morality. When our money is controlled through health care, our morality is as well.

Please actually engage the actual positions of Republicans and don't staple "theology" onto your political critiques.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 7:38pm

With respect to alivingsacrifice, Mr. Wallis' post is theological.

It is not, as you note, traditionally theological, in the sense that it falls within standard systematic concepts. However, it is still theological to the core.

For example, his first point is an attempt to help us think about the biblical priority for the poor, a profoundly biblical notion, and how that idea squares with governmental policies which over time seem to benefit those who have more than those that do not.

There is little in the policies in question that would lead a someone to conclude that the priority of policy makers have been the marginalized of our society. I believe Mr. Wallis was making the point that to say tax cuts for the wealthy help everyone in the end is a pretty convenient thing to be able to say. I think the question is, Is this actually true?

I would suggest that Mr. Wallis is well aware of the positions of Republicans on issues such as the trickle down theory as you point out. My guess is that he is simply rejecting the idea that it works, and is calling a spade, what in his mind is, a spade.

Instead, perhaps, we should ask, what kind of tax policy promotes the extension of a just society for all people. That would be the theological question to consider and Mr. Wallis is demonstrating that it is a question that is not asked, or reflected on well.

Secondly, his point that Republicans call current Democratic proposals waste, while turning a blind eye to military spending is on two fronts theological. One it calls into question the double-minded nature of condemning a policy for transgressions they themselves are making, calling to mind Jesus' words regarding specks and planks. Also, Mr. Wallis forces us to wrestle with the morality of spending to begin with. Spending will happen that is no doubt, but what we spend money on is both a moral and theological question.

It seems to me that Mr. Wallis is suggesting that the combination of tax cuts that, in the first place, help the wealthiest segments of society, and escalating costs for military engagements around the world, which few can argue are entirely an issue of national security, should make us question the moral ground on which these policy arguments are made.

In addition, the current health care projection includes a deficit reduction. Please demonstrate counter evidence to show that it will run up the deficit for our grandchildren. It is important, as Mr. Wallis argues in Rediscovering Values, that we make decisions based on the 7th generation out, but it seems to me that declaring a decision to be harmful to our grandchildren plays on our emotions and it would bolster the argument to engage in real dialogue about the truth of this health care reform bill's effect on the deficit. (I say this to both sides, give us specifics and let's dialogue about its affect on our children's children)

This doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your thoughts on the bill, although I would like to hear your thoughts on how reforming health care is a moral issue to be for, not simply to be against. Surely the concept of health care for people who do not have it is a noble goal. Specific implementation of that goal is where the debate should take place.

Theology that cannot contend with real life is not Christian. The best kinds of theology attempt to wrestle with the real life issues of the day and attempts to understand how the Scriptures should shape the way we think and act today. This is exactly what Mr. Wallis' post does.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 7:38pm

With respect to alivingsacrifice, Mr. Wallis' post is theological.

It is not, as you note, traditionally theological, in the sense that it falls within standard systematic concepts. However, it is still theological to the core.

For example, his first point is an attempt to help us think about the biblical priority for the poor, a profoundly biblical notion, and how that idea squares with governmental policies which over time seem to benefit those who have more than those that do not.

There is little in the policies in question that would lead a someone to conclude that the priority of policy makers have been the marginalized of our society. I believe Mr. Wallis was making the point that to say tax cuts for the wealthy help everyone in the end is a pretty convenient thing to be able to say. I think the question is, Is this actually true?

I would suggest that Mr. Wallis is well aware of the positions of Republicans on issues such as the trickle down theory as you point out. My guess is that he is simply rejecting the idea that it works, and is calling a spade, what in his mind is, a spade.

Instead, perhaps, we should ask, what kind of tax policy promotes the extension of a just society for all people. That would be the theological question to consider and Mr. Wallis is demonstrating that it is a question that is not asked, or reflected on well.

Secondly, his point that Republicans call current Democratic proposals waste, while turning a blind eye to military spending is on two fronts theological. One it calls into question the double-minded nature of condemning a policy for transgressions they themselves are making, calling to mind Jesus' words regarding specks and planks. Also, Mr. Wallis forces us to wrestle with the morality of spending to begin with. Spending will happen that is no doubt, but what we spend money on is both a moral and theological question.

It seems to me that Mr. Wallis is suggesting that the combination of tax cuts that, in the first place, help the wealthiest segments of society, and escalating costs for military engagements around the world, which few can argue are entirely an issue of national security, should make us question the moral ground on which these policy arguments are made.

In addition, the current health care projection includes a deficit reduction. Please demonstrate counter evidence to show that it will run up the deficit for our grandchildren. It is important, as Mr. Wallis argues in Rediscovering Values, that we make decisions based on the 7th generation out, but it seems to me that declaring a decision to be harmful to our grandchildren plays on our emotions and it would bolster the argument to engage in real dialogue about the truth of this health care reform bill's effect on the deficit. (I say this to both sides, give us specifics and let's dialogue about its affect on our children's children)

This doesn't mean you aren't entitled to your thoughts on the bill, although I would like to hear your thoughts on how reforming health care is a moral issue to be for, not simply to be against. Surely the concept of health care for people who do not have it is a noble goal. Specific implementation of that goal is where the debate should take place.

Theology that cannot contend with real life is not Christian. The best kinds of theology attempt to wrestle with the real life issues of the day and attempts to understand how the Scriptures should shape the way we think and act today. This is exactly what Mr. Wallis' post does.

by: Patricia

02-26-2010 @ 7:42pm

Republicans may BELIEVE that tax cuts to the rich get put back into the marketplace and gets used in thousands of different ways, but I think if one looks at the ways the money from the last tax-cuts got used, it can be amply demonstrated that that belief is not an accurate one.

by: Patricia

02-26-2010 @ 7:42pm

Republicans may BELIEVE that tax cuts to the rich get put back into the marketplace and gets used in thousands of different ways, but I think if one looks at the ways the money from the last tax-cuts got used, it can be amply demonstrated that that belief is not an accurate one.

by: jesse3

02-26-2010 @ 7:44pm

I don't think I could say it better than Alivingsacrifice said it (I agree...where was any theological point?), but I'd like to point out the painfully obvious fact that Wallis misses from the start: tax cuts do not cost the government ANYTHING because it's not their money to begin with. Health care costs it a lot. Is that really a difficult distinction to understand?

Like livingsacrifice, I see straw men everywhere in this post. I also see a complete unwillingness to engage with his opponents. I guess it's hard to be prophetic when you're discussing issues that good people can disagree on. I think this is why it is important for Wallis to portray the opposition in such a negative light.

by: jesse3

02-26-2010 @ 7:44pm

I don't think I could say it better than Alivingsacrifice said it (I agree...where was any theological point?), but I'd like to point out the painfully obvious fact that Wallis misses from the start: tax cuts do not cost the government ANYTHING because it's not their money to begin with. Health care costs it a lot. Is that really a difficult distinction to understand?

Like livingsacrifice, I see straw men everywhere in this post. I also see a complete unwillingness to engage with his opponents. I guess it's hard to be prophetic when you're discussing issues that good people can disagree on. I think this is why it is important for Wallis to portray the opposition in such a negative light.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:54pm

"They simply think the government should in its tax, spending, and regulatory policies do all it can to benefit the rich over low- and middle-income people, and to uncritically support the business of war."

The Republicans help the rich; the Democrats help the poor. I'm not a Republican and will not defend them. But my gosh! How many times does we have to hear that old lie repeated?

Republicans passed the tax cuts because mainstream (Keynesian) economic theory said doing so would stimulate the economy (remember 9/11 and the depression of 2001?). Any tax cut benefits the rich because the rich pay most of the taxes. The top 20% pay 80% of all federal taxes. How can you not help the rich by reducing taxes? But the Republicans were wrong. Mainstream economists were wrong. The tax cuts did not stimulate the economy and they increased the budget deficit and federal borrowing dramatically.

Democrats are wrong on the healthcare bill. It will help some poor people in the short run, but it will increase taxes and inflation and will reduce wages in the long run. That is sound economics. There are no free lunches. The federal government has taken in around 20% of gdp for the past 70 years, regardless of changes to the tax laws or which party controls the government. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have been able to change that. If you increased the taxes on the rich to 100%, the federal government would not take in any more than 20% of the gdp. So if the feds spend more than 20% of the gdp, they won't have enough money and they'll have to borrow to cover the deficit.

But if you want to get theological, let's talk about "thou shalt not steal" and whether the guv is a thief if he takes from the rich to give to the poor. Many great theologians have said it. Or what about the theology of forced charity? If a man enters your home and steals your jewels, is it OK if he gives them to a poor person? But it's OK for the government to do the same thing?

And what about justice? Justice causes the state to treat all citizens equally. Is robbing the rich to help the poor justice? Some people want us to believe that the only way to help the poor is through forced charity through taxation. Without it, the poor will die. But the Bible commands individuals to help the poor, not the state. Jesus was not a policy wonk.

As for the spending on the military, I couldn't agree more.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:54pm

"They simply think the government should in its tax, spending, and regulatory policies do all it can to benefit the rich over low- and middle-income people, and to uncritically support the business of war."

The Republicans help the rich; the Democrats help the poor. I'm not a Republican and will not defend them. But my gosh! How many times does we have to hear that old lie repeated?

Republicans passed the tax cuts because mainstream (Keynesian) economic theory said doing so would stimulate the economy (remember 9/11 and the depression of 2001?). Any tax cut benefits the rich because the rich pay most of the taxes. The top 20% pay 80% of all federal taxes. How can you not help the rich by reducing taxes? But the Republicans were wrong. Mainstream economists were wrong. The tax cuts did not stimulate the economy and they increased the budget deficit and federal borrowing dramatically.

Democrats are wrong on the healthcare bill. It will help some poor people in the short run, but it will increase taxes and inflation and will reduce wages in the long run. That is sound economics. There are no free lunches. The federal government has taken in around 20% of gdp for the past 70 years, regardless of changes to the tax laws or which party controls the government. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have been able to change that. If you increased the taxes on the rich to 100%, the federal government would not take in any more than 20% of the gdp. So if the feds spend more than 20% of the gdp, they won't have enough money and they'll have to borrow to cover the deficit.

But if you want to get theological, let's talk about "thou shalt not steal" and whether the guv is a thief if he takes from the rich to give to the poor. Many great theologians have said it. Or what about the theology of forced charity? If a man enters your home and steals your jewels, is it OK if he gives them to a poor person? But it's OK for the government to do the same thing?

And what about justice? Justice causes the state to treat all citizens equally. Is robbing the rich to help the poor justice? Some people want us to believe that the only way to help the poor is through forced charity through taxation. Without it, the poor will die. But the Bible commands individuals to help the poor, not the state. Jesus was not a policy wonk.

As for the spending on the military, I couldn't agree more.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:55pm

You should look at a history of budget deficit projections. They are notoriously horrible! They can't even get the next quarter correct, let alone ten years in the future.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 7:55pm

You should look at a history of budget deficit projections. They are notoriously horrible! They can't even get the next quarter correct, let alone ten years in the future.

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 7:57pm

If we stopped the "wars" we'd be able to pay for health care.
BTW- what is the projected health related costs for these "wars"? (ie. ptsd, prosthetics, veterans benefits, etc.)

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 7:57pm

If we stopped the "wars" we'd be able to pay for health care.
BTW- what is the projected health related costs for these "wars"? (ie. ptsd, prosthetics, veterans benefits, etc.)

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:04pm

Thanks for the response. I agree that you are correct that it is not as simple as suggesting that Republicans are anti-poor and Democrats are anti-rich. Nothing can be that cut and dry.

Your statistics about the ineffectual tax cuts are perhaps what was meant about tax cuts costing us something (see other comments above).

About not stealing, how does that square with Jesus suggesting that we ought to give to Caesar what is, ie. government really does have some claim on our money? I'm just asking, I don't have a thought here really.

And I'm not sure justice is treating everyone the same. That is probably more accurately a description of fairness. Justice seems to be taking steps to right wrongs, to make a society just, which may in fact mean that things are not shared equally...which seems to suggest that the rich have a right to be rich but also the responsibility to bear more of the burden. Again, just wondering out loud.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:04pm

Thanks for the response. I agree that you are correct that it is not as simple as suggesting that Republicans are anti-poor and Democrats are anti-rich. Nothing can be that cut and dry.

Your statistics about the ineffectual tax cuts are perhaps what was meant about tax cuts costing us something (see other comments above).

About not stealing, how does that square with Jesus suggesting that we ought to give to Caesar what is, ie. government really does have some claim on our money? I'm just asking, I don't have a thought here really.

And I'm not sure justice is treating everyone the same. That is probably more accurately a description of fairness. Justice seems to be taking steps to right wrongs, to make a society just, which may in fact mean that things are not shared equally...which seems to suggest that the rich have a right to be rich but also the responsibility to bear more of the burden. Again, just wondering out loud.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:07pm

Those are the kind of statistics and historical analysis that would help us to think well about the debate. As I'm not an economist, I wouldn't pretend to be able to analyze much but I'd like to hear... How do proponents of the bill respond when confronted with the same statistics? Then a response to their response etc.

A debate that progresses along those lines would be most informative and would help more people think through the issues as opposed to being, in a sense, captive to the talking points of politicians and pundits on both sides of the aisle.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:07pm

Those are the kind of statistics and historical analysis that would help us to think well about the debate. As I'm not an economist, I wouldn't pretend to be able to analyze much but I'd like to hear... How do proponents of the bill respond when confronted with the same statistics? Then a response to their response etc.

A debate that progresses along those lines would be most informative and would help more people think through the issues as opposed to being, in a sense, captive to the talking points of politicians and pundits on both sides of the aisle.

by: dlondonx

02-26-2010 @ 8:09pm

I cannot fathom the willingness of a Christian to embrace with such passion Ayn Rands atheistic religion of worshipping the wealthy as saviors to society with their greed, which is really the basis of so called trickle down economics. If you read any history, there have been countless times where a powerful, wealthy elite (say, the French Aristrocracy) were able to use the government to protect their wealth and status, and, instead of making the lives of the common man better, they made them even worse. Spend any time reading Hugo (A Christian), or even Dickens, and you can see this fact plainly. Read Barrington Moore, and you can see a little more clearly just how some wealthy who wanted more power were able to stoke the flames of revolution to knock off their aristocratic rivals, which is a point that many wealth worshippers fail to realize in our day and age. And when we look at more recent history, we dont see trickle-down economics, but trickle-out economics, as capital has fled out of the US economy to India, China, and the rest of the far east where they can benefit from slavery, or near slavery labor conditions (for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations, read The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga) to make things, and provide services which most people agree are worse than they were only a few years ago. As for the theology of the post, what part of the bible do you read where there isnt a missive to help the poor, live peacefully, and avoid wealth idolization. Of course, if you just dont like these passages, you can check out the Conservative Bible Project for a more favorable reading (its kind of short, though).

by: dlondonx

02-26-2010 @ 8:09pm

I cannot fathom the willingness of a Christian to embrace with such passion Ayn Rands atheistic religion of worshipping the wealthy as saviors to society with their greed, which is really the basis of so called trickle down economics. If you read any history, there have been countless times where a powerful, wealthy elite (say, the French Aristrocracy) were able to use the government to protect their wealth and status, and, instead of making the lives of the common man better, they made them even worse. Spend any time reading Hugo (A Christian), or even Dickens, and you can see this fact plainly. Read Barrington Moore, and you can see a little more clearly just how some wealthy who wanted more power were able to stoke the flames of revolution to knock off their aristocratic rivals, which is a point that many wealth worshippers fail to realize in our day and age. And when we look at more recent history, we dont see trickle-down economics, but trickle-out economics, as capital has fled out of the US economy to India, China, and the rest of the far east where they can benefit from slavery, or near slavery labor conditions (for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations, read The White Tiger by Aravind Adiga) to make things, and provide services which most people agree are worse than they were only a few years ago. As for the theology of the post, what part of the bible do you read where there isnt a missive to help the poor, live peacefully, and avoid wealth idolization. Of course, if you just dont like these passages, you can check out the Conservative Bible Project for a more favorable reading (its kind of short, though).

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 8:27pm

I just did some research. A British article addressed the "hidden costs" (death benefits and medical benefits) of the Afghan War to be 1/3 of the "expenditures". Extrapolating these numbers to our current $100B annual budget yields a hidden cost of $32B of GOVERNMENT provided health care per year. As Jim said, do we want to kill and maim people or do we want to heal them. That may not be a theological question to some, but how you choose to answer may reveal the God you worship.

by: PASTOR JEFF

02-26-2010 @ 8:27pm

I just did some research. A British article addressed the "hidden costs" (death benefits and medical benefits) of the Afghan War to be 1/3 of the "expenditures". Extrapolating these numbers to our current $100B annual budget yields a hidden cost of $32B of GOVERNMENT provided health care per year. As Jim said, do we want to kill and maim people or do we want to heal them. That may not be a theological question to some, but how you choose to answer may reveal the God you worship.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:37pm

I have a degree in economics and have studied it for 30 years, but I have never seen an instance in which statistics settled a dispute, unless it was very minor. The problem with statistics is that each side does their analyses with different assumptions, different techniques, and different data sets, so comparisons are impossible. And each side thinks the other is completely idiotic for using their assumptions, data and methods. Sorry. I don't think statistics will help much.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:37pm

I have a degree in economics and have studied it for 30 years, but I have never seen an instance in which statistics settled a dispute, unless it was very minor. The problem with statistics is that each side does their analyses with different assumptions, different techniques, and different data sets, so comparisons are impossible. And each side thinks the other is completely idiotic for using their assumptions, data and methods. Sorry. I don't think statistics will help much.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:38pm

Exactly!

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:38pm

Exactly!

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:42pm

"for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations,"

That's simply not true. Ask anyone in India or China if they are better off today than 10 years ago. Anyone. China has lifted over 300 million out of poverty in 30 years by abandoning a small amount of socialism. State redistribution, healthcare, or charity had nothing to do with it. India has lifted hundreds of millions from starvation poverty. They aren't doing as well as China because they still cling to their socialism.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:42pm

"for every person whose life has been made better, 100s are placed into awful situations,"

That's simply not true. Ask anyone in India or China if they are better off today than 10 years ago. Anyone. China has lifted over 300 million out of poverty in 30 years by abandoning a small amount of socialism. State redistribution, healthcare, or charity had nothing to do with it. India has lifted hundreds of millions from starvation poverty. They aren't doing as well as China because they still cling to their socialism.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:47pm

Excellent point. We still live in a finite world. There is so much good we could be doing with the money spent on the Iraq and Afghan wars. The first principle you learn in intro economics classes is opportunity costs. When you choose to do one thing, that means you have automatically prevented yourself from doing something else at the same time with the same money.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 8:47pm

Excellent point. We still live in a finite world. There is so much good we could be doing with the money spent on the Iraq and Afghan wars. The first principle you learn in intro economics classes is opportunity costs. When you choose to do one thing, that means you have automatically prevented yourself from doing something else at the same time with the same money.

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:53pm

True...but how do we move past fear mongering and actually discuss the issue? Is it a lost cause?

by: algalg

02-26-2010 @ 8:53pm

True...but how do we move past fear mongering and actually discuss the issue? Is it a lost cause?

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 9:01pm

Honestly, I don't know. Fear mongering works well, that's why it is used so much.

by: fundamentalist

02-26-2010 @ 9:01pm

Honestly, I don't know. Fear mongering works well, that's why it is used so much.

by: ckgmail

02-26-2010 @ 9:17pm

Someone commented about tax cuts being spent, and improving the economy. Tax cuts for the rich do not do that. The Bush tax cuts simply increased the gap between the incomes and wealth of the poor and the very rich. I always hearken back to Isaiah chapter 5, "Woe to those who join house to house, and field to field" etc.

I'm with Jim. This is a theological moral issue. It is not really a conservative vs. liberal political issue.

by: ckgmail

02-26-2010 @ 9:17pm

Someone commented about tax cuts being spent, and improving the economy. Tax cuts for the rich do not do that. The Bush tax cuts simply increased the gap between the incomes and wealth of the poor and the very rich. I always hearken back to Isaiah chapter 5, "Woe to those who join house to house, and field to field" etc.

I'm with Jim. This is a theological moral issue. It is not really a conservative vs. liberal political issue.

by: ingreif

02-26-2010 @ 10:12pm

I dont think jim wallace really studies what he is about to write about. he just wings it with emotions. There is no theological answer to these two things in scripture. War is an horrible thing that just happens and always will. Its doing it the best we can and in trying to decide if its the right thing or not. Not an easy thing to decide. For one reconciliations is about finances, taxes and spending, NOT about health care So to use it does break the rules. And they apposed it when it was done So why would they do it know. thats MORAL jim to you. You make an awful lot of ASSUMPTIONS without actual facts. i think there is a rule for us against this. It amazes me how oftain you will discredit republicans but ignore democrates follies. But no we know your not a democrate. But alivingsacrifice is completely correct. i would love to see Jim actually have a discussion with such person. he might learn something, like how to actually look into what he is speaking about so he wont seem so dishonest and biased towards republicans.

by: ingreif

02-26-2010 @ 10:12pm

I dont think jim wallace really studies what he is about to write about. he just wings it with emotions. There is no theological answer to these two things in scripture. War is an horrible thing that just happens and always will. Its doing it the best we can and in trying to decide if its the right thing or not. Not an easy thing to decide. For one reconciliations is about finances, taxes and spending, NOT about health care So to use it does break the rules. And they apposed it when it was done So why would they do it know. thats MORAL jim to you. You make an awful lot of ASSUMPTIONS without actual facts. i think there is a rule for us against this. It amazes me how oftain you will discredit republicans but ignore democrates follies. But no we know your not a democrate. But alivingsacrifice is completely correct. i would love to see Jim actually have a discussion with such person. he might learn something, like how to actually look into what he is speaking about so he wont seem so dishonest and biased towards republicans.

by: sgillesp

02-26-2010 @ 10:16pm

Alivingsacrifice: I'm glad you used the word "believe" - as in, "Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people." We certainly have been told that for 30 years, and I too believed it for a long time. But in fact, now we see that the booming economy was a mirage, and that a small portion of the population made themselves much, much richer while most Americans lost ground in terms of buying power and salary in the last several decades. I suppose Republicans can believe whatever they want, but I am dumbfounded why Christians should believe it. Jesus-followers ought to be as highly suspicious of business and profit as government - all are the systems of sinful humanity and are earth-bound. All those things are tools, and it seems to me that when we buy into an ideology about the virtues of free markets, we've put our treasure in the wrong place. I will agree that government is a solution, either - but in some circumstances, it may be a better tool. In the health care reform debate, I think we've seen what unfettered private profit as motive has wrought: 1/6 of the population without access to health care, and many of us paying way too much to companies who orient themselves toward reducing care so they can keep more of the money. That sounds unjust to me, and so perhaps we need to use the government tool to change things. I do not believe that giving even more power to the business-model will produce anything but more injustice.

by: sgillesp

02-26-2010 @ 10:16pm

Alivingsacrifice: I'm glad you used the word "believe" - as in, "Republicans believe that even tax cuts for the rich help all people." We certainly have been told that for 30 years, and I too believed it for a long time. But in fact, now we see that the booming economy was a mirage, and that a small portion of the population made themselves much, much richer while most Americans lost ground in terms of buying power and salary in the last several decades. I suppose Republicans can believe whatever they want, but I am dumbfounded why Christians should believe it. Jesus-followers ought to be as highly suspicious of business and profit as government - all are the systems of sinful humanity and are earth-bound. All those things are tools, and it seems to me that when we buy into an ideology about the virtues of free markets, we've put our treasure in the wrong place. I will agree that government is a solution, either - but in some circumstances, it may be a better tool. In the health care reform debate, I think we've seen what unfettered private profit as motive has wrought: 1/6 of the population without access to health care, and many of us paying way too much to companies who orient themselves toward reducing care so they can keep more of the money. That sounds unjust to me, and so perhaps we need to use the government tool to change things. I do not believe that giving even more power to the business-model will produce anything but more injustice.

by: kansasmennonite

02-26-2010 @ 10:58pm

Maybe we should "give" money to the rich so the poor would prosper!

Your not interested in helping the poor-you're interested in keeping the status quo.

by: kansasmennonite

02-26-2010 @ 10:58pm

Maybe we should "give" money to the rich so the poor would prosper!

Your not interested in helping the poor-you're interested in keeping the status quo.

by: xfree9

02-26-2010 @ 11:28pm

The Caesar thing... Greg Boyd has a sermon on his website (gregboyd.org) that addresses this issue. Essentially, Jesus was being sarcastic and saying, "Well if it's got his imprint on it, give it back to him," the implication being, God owns everything, and if Caesar thinks he's all so special, give him his money. The point of that questions was to "trap" Jesus, so Jesus responded by not giving either side what they were hoping to trap him with.

Even some liberal theologians who likely would not believe gov't to be thieving from citizens have proposed such an interpretation. the point of the story is: God owns everything.

You are right about justice being the righting of wrongs, but once we agree upon that, we have to have a discussion on what "wrongs" have been committed. Everybody has a different set of preferences that determine what "wrongs" were committed. The idea of "shared equally" implies that there is a fixed amount of "wealth" out there, and for somebody to be richer, somebody else must be poorer. In some arenas (like politics), this is true. Defenders of a free market would say that in a truly free market, each person is free to choose that which benefits him, and is protected against being forced to make choices which are detrimental to him. In other words, if people are truly free, and their right to make peaceful trade agreements with others, the very logic and inherent nature of a willing trade means both parties are better off.

You are wondering out loud very good questions.

by: xfree9

02-26-2010 @ 11:28pm

The Caesar thing... Greg Boyd has a sermon on his website (gregboyd.org) that addresses this issue. Essentially, Jesus was being sarcastic and saying, "Well if it's got his imprint on it, give it back to him," the implication being, God owns everything, and if Caesar thinks he's all so special, give him his money. The point of that questions was to "trap" Jesus, so Jesus responded by not giving either side what they were hoping to trap him with.

Even some liberal theologians who likely would not believe gov't to be thieving from citizens have proposed such an interpretation. the point of the story is: God owns everything.

You are right about justice being the righting of wrongs, but once we agree upon that, we have to have a discussion on what "wrongs" have been committed. Everybody has a different set of preferences that determine what "wrongs" were committed. The idea of "shared equally" implies that there is a fixed amount of "wealth" out there, and for somebody to be richer, somebody else must be poorer. In some arenas (like politics), this is true. Defenders of a free market would say that in a truly free market, each person is free to choose that which benefits him, and is protected against being forced to make choices which are detrimental to him. In other words, if people are truly free, and their right to make peaceful trade agreements with others, the very logic and inherent nature of a willing trade means both parties are better off.

You are wondering out loud very good questions.

by: algalg

02-27-2010 @ 12:08am

Thanks for the response...at some level, I'm guessing Jesus was also speaking to the idea that God's kingdom doesn't operate within the same perameters as Caesar's; challenging his listeners to keep the power of Caesar in perspective...he may collect taxes but he isn't...etc. Certainly God owns everything, and earthly kings and kingdoms pale in comparison...

And I think you're right, the discussion of justice does come down to thinking through what the wrongs are...I think that was exactly the point of the original post by Jim, trying to discern where the injustices lie. I'm not saying I come down on each point where he does, just saying I think that is what he was doing.

by: algalg

02-27-2010 @ 12:08am

Thanks for the response...at some level, I'm guessing Jesus was also speaking to the idea that God's kingdom doesn't operate within the same perameters as Caesar's; challenging his listeners to keep the power of Caesar in perspective...he may collect taxes but he isn't...etc. Certainly God owns everything, and earthly kings and kingdoms pale in comparison...

And I think you're right, the discussion of justice does come down to thinking through what the wrongs are...I think that was exactly the point of the original post by Jim, trying to discern where the injustices lie. I'm not saying I come down on each point where he does, just saying I think that is what he was doing.

by: Agjosh

02-27-2010 @ 1:50am

Numerous studies have shown that conservatives, republicans, right-wingers what ever you want to call us give more per capita (regardless of income level) than liberals by a significant amount. Not only do they give more, but they are three times more likely to personally serve those in need in a hands on manner. Please do not say I or others of my political persuasion are not interested in helping the poor based on your misunderstandings.

by: Agjosh

02-27-2010 @ 1:50am

Numerous studies have shown that conservatives, republicans, right-wingers what ever you want to call us give more per capita (regardless of income level) than liberals by a significant amount. Not only do they give more, but they are three times more likely to personally serve those in need in a hands on manner. Please do not say I or others of my political persuasion are not interested in helping the poor based on your misunderstandings.

by: kansasmennonite

02-27-2010 @ 1:57am

You're getting socialism and communism mixed up.

by: kansasmennonite

02-27-2010 @ 1:57am

You're getting socialism and communism mixed up.