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Finding Watchtowers and Blind Spots in Bethlehem

100326_090529-2497-palestineFrom the window of my hotel room in Bethlehem, I could see the "security" wall that separates the West Bank from the rest of Israel. Among the graffiti expressing the pain of the Palestinians is the following quote from Kurt Tucholsky, an early 20th century German Jewish journalist: "A country is not only what it does, but what it tolerates."

I was in the birthplace of Jesus attending a conference called "Christ at the Checkpoint: Theology in the Service of Peace and Justice." In the city where Jesus Christ was born two thousand years ago, several hundred delegates from around the world joined with Palestinian Christians to attempt to see scripture and the world through the lens of the Palestinian experience.

I found myself in the home of a hospitable Palestinian family in Beit Sahour near Bethlehem. Paul Alexander and I were observing a meeting of the Popular Committee to Defend Oush Gurab (which means "the nest of the crow," referring to a peak in Beit Sahour).

While the dialogue of the dozen men and women around the living room was in Arabic, we received occasional translation to help us understand all that was happening. The hilltop of Oush Garub used to be an Israeli military base surrounded by Palestinian communities. As security priorities have changed over the past several years, the Israelis decided to dismantle the military base so they could apply resources elsewhere.

Over the past few months, an organization called "Women in Green" has rallied both the support of Israelis who live in West Bank settlements to call on the government to reclaim this land for the Jewish people. The government has acquiesced to their demands, and began clearing ground on the site a few months ago. In response, Dr. Mazin Qumsiyeh called together a group of community leaders to form the Popular Committee to Defend Oush Gurab.

The new organization's first nonviolent protest included dozens of protestors and crescendoed with a Lutheran pastor leading the people in the Lord's Prayer. At that moment, the Israeli Army unleashed tear gas on those gathered, dispersing the crowd. A few weeks later, the Israeli army met the next nonviolent protest group with rubber-tipped bullets.

Later, a storm blew into Beit Sahour, dropping temperatures by 20 degrees. Simultaneously, an army construction team blew into town, constructing an entire small watchtower on the hilltop in less than three hours. The watchtower sits alone, protecting and securing nobody, on a hilltop surrounded by Palestinians.

What will the soldiers watch from this tower? What will they see? Who will they protect? Dr. Mazin and his committee view a watchtower as a logical first step in what may eventually be yet another Jewish settlement on the Palestinian land.

Back in the relative calm of my hotel room, I was once again pondering the words on that great barrier that defines daily life in Bethlehem and the West Bank, but with a slight alteration: "The church is not only what it does, but what it tolerates."

So many times, over so many centuries, the Church has tolerated injustice. At best, we claim we don't see the injustice, or that the issues are too complex, or try to find a suitable scapegoat so we can wash our hands of any responsibility. At worst, we support theologies and government policies, foreign and domestic, that contribute to and perpetuate injustice.

I had been staying in my Bethlehem hotel room for four days, but did not even know I could see the Wall from my room until one morning. I did not have the right vantage point. It was only when I walked up to the windows and sat at the desk that I noticed the Wall. I was blinded to harsh realities just a few hundred feet from my window.

How often do we insulate and isolate ourselves from the great injustices, viewing the world from watchtowers that affirm our prejudices and lack of involvement. As the church of Jesus Christ, we can no longer tolerate viewing the world from our old comfortable seats. We must stand up, look at the world from the vantage point of the marginalized, and refuse to continue to tolerate their dehumanizing plight.

My friend Marwan is a brave, strong Palestinian man who is giving his life to nonviolent resistance against injustice. At great personal risk, he let Paul and I see the Palestinian people in their home as they struggled. If I am to be true to the call of Jesus Christ, I must regularly try to see the world through Marwan's eyes, and never be satisfied with tolerating his plight.

The construction of the watchtower I witnessed today was unjust and hurtful to people created in the image of God. As the Church of Jesus Christ, we cannot tolerate this injustice by remaining silent. As Peter said nearly two thousand years ago, we cannot help to speak about what we have seen and heard.

Troy Jackson is senior pastor of University Christian Church in Cincinnati, a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, and earned his Ph.D. in United States history from the University of Kentucky. He is author of Becoming King: Martin Luther King Jr. and the Making of a National Leader (Civil Rights and the Struggle for Black Equality in the Twentieth Century) and a participant in Sojourners' Windchangers grassroots organizing project in Ohio.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: daoudkuttab

03-30-2010 @ 5:13am

Your friend Marwan was arrested on Palm Sunday as he and other Christians were carrying out a nonviolent protest. See more www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 3:55am

"My friend Marwan is a brave, strong Palestinian man who is giving his life to nonviolent resistance against injustice."

Good for him. But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace.

by: Dave_Metz

03-26-2010 @ 8:43pm

Sobering.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:22pm

"Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would
not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be
no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I
hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of
course I don't presume to speak for Him."

Ah, yes, the ole WWII canard. You have too little faith that God will
protect God's own children, so you insist that it is necessary for us to
take up the sword to do it ourselves. Jesus may have commanded his
disciples to put the sword away, but such words are rejected as being
impractical for us (who are also Jesus' disciples). God, somehow,
cannot be trusted to come through when the chips are down. And so
millions of people are killed in wars. Is this something you think God
is O.K. with?

Flip it around, for a second. If "religious freedom" is the highest
priority, then you may well be right -- that war must be fought to
protect it. But if worshiping and obeying God is a higher priority than
securing religious freedom, then other possibilities arise. Let's not
worship the freedom, let's worship God alone.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:21pm

If oppression is happening, even if unintentional, that is unacceptable.
And it IS happening. Acts of oppression are well documented by reliable
organizations. I have seen sufficient evidence to disbelieve the
"distorted or ginned up" claim that you make. And I also assert that
the oppression is indiscriminate -- often it is focused against
civilians and innocents.

See "www . cpt . org" for substantiation from direct eyewitnesses who
are Christians. If you disagree, then please supply me with a link to
refuting evidence from equally direct eyewitnesses who are also
Christians.

You claim that the Israelis are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is
the same toward them. Then how do you explain the settlements on
Palestinian territory? Taking someone's land to live on is not an act
of tolerance or acceptance, nor is it part of improving the security
picture.

I unequivocally condemn violence done both by Palestinian terrorists and
by the Israeli military and settlers. Will you join me -- agreeing that
the problem is two sided and condemning violence by both sides?

by: Stein

03-29-2010 @ 2:33pm

"[Christians must] look at the world from the vantage point of the marginalized, and refuse to continue to tolerate their dehumanizing plight."

Your response:

"But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace."

Can't you see how irrelevant your response is? So many innocent people, God's children, are being treated in a dehumanizing manner; it cannot be justified because some of them happen to have violent neighbors. Oppression can never be justified. It is always oppression.

Fortunately, God never says to us "first clean up your own side, and then perhaps we can address the other side together in actual peace."

Again, can't you see the mutuality that is needed here? I agree with Troy that we cannot tolerate the dehumanizing conditions and action occuring.

by: GWilson

04-02-2010 @ 10:56pm

"If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?" -- Stein

By that logic, why do we even have a Police department? I think you're taking things a little too literally. God is too busy being your guiding light to also be your police department.

I know of some people who trust God to heal their children when they have curable, treatable diseases and injuries. Unfortunately, more often than not, those children end up dead or permanently disabled.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 8:09pm

I don't think "oppression" is the intent of the Israelis. That's the giant false premise constantly put forth. They've been forced (in order to preserve any semblance of a civil, livable existence in their country) to adopt a pro-active stance. That stance I believe is measured and mindful of innocents, but it also lends itself to being easily distorted and ginned up as being indiscriminate.

The problem is not the Israelis, who are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is the same toward them. The problem, and it is a big one, is busses and restaurants full of innocents deliberately blown to bits NOT due to a land dispute, but to brainwashed hatred for Jews.

Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of course I don't presume to speak for Him.

by: theou

04-01-2010 @ 4:58pm

Deeds speak louder than words, GW.
If you take Yasser Arafat's alleged speech, swap the terms "jews" and "arabs" you will get a pretty good historical account of what has happened in Palestine since 1967.
It would not be "six to seven million" Jews it would be six to seven hundred thousand. But if you calculate in the multipling factor of overwhelming military force the effect is the same.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:12pm

"It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not
defending yourself, and others, against evil."

Well, I certainly challenge you to think and pray about that some more.
If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's
prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:05pm

You continue to assert "Isralis good, Palestinians evil". I disagree.

I think that the grabbing of Palestinian land by Israel would continue
even if all Palestinian terrorist activity were to cease. Israel has
continued to assert its right to new settlements on the very eve of US
Sec. of State visits to start a new peace initiative. That is so
brazen. The settlements are not for security reasons -- they are purely
for financial gain; and they leave so many Palestinians in poverty and
ruin.

Your hypothesis: "If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all
violence, there would be peace and security."

Fact: Israeli settlements continue to expand and take over Palestinian
land in violation of international treaties.

My assertion (tell me if you disagree): The settlements are NOT in
response to Palestinian violence.

When facts contradict hypotheses, the scientific method looks for how
the faulty hypotheses can be revised. Please do so.

P.S. Your quote from 14 years ago from a man who is dead is pretty
dated. You need to get some better material; stop living in the past.
Did you read any of the up-to-date material from the web site I
referenced to you?

P.P.S. I am not asserting "Isralis bad, Palestinians good". There is
no symmetry in our arguments. You're taking the extreme position of
supporting one side; I'm taking the middle. I'm asserting that BOTH
sides are doing bad things, and any solution must be for BOTH sides to
reform.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:46pm

It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not defending yourself, and others, against evil.

Maybe it's just me.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:43pm

Obviously we all "condemn" violence, but all "violence" is not created equal. But there needs to be some recognition that this is not in any way some kind of morally equivalent situation. There are surely many peaceful Palestinians who would love nothing more than to live in peace side by side with Israel. Many live and work in Israel. But there are far too many who wish for nothing short of its elimination:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." --- Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President', Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders

This is the mindset the Israelis are up against. If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all violence, there would be peace and security. If the Israeli side were to do the same, there would be more violence against them.

by: Stein

04-05-2010 @ 12:10pm

You are right in observing that there is a balance where God expects us
to partner with God in all the processes of living. Hence we should not
worry about what we should eat, but we need to work to earn a living
nonetheless. So we need to keep this balance.

You started this exchange by taking what I regarded as a cheap shot at
pacifists (look it up to refresh your memory if you need to). My
concern is that such a position is not observably different (i.e. to the
watching world) from having no faith at all. When asked, I believe that
you could articulate the faith in your position; it needs to be repeated
explicitly lest it be crowded out by the cares of the world -- which is
always the temptation on that side of the spectrum [and acknowledging
that pacifism has a different set of temptations on the other side].

So, to maintain a balance, I won't argue for inappropriate application
of blind faith, and correspondingly ask that you not 'dis' those who
take the Prince of Peace at his word and really believe that peace is
possible. We are both people of faith; let us not work to tear each
other down.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 3:55am

"My friend Marwan is a brave, strong Palestinian man who is giving his life to nonviolent resistance against injustice."

Good for him. But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace.

by: Dave_Metz

03-26-2010 @ 8:43pm

Sobering.

by: Stein

03-29-2010 @ 2:33pm

"[Christians must] look at the world from the vantage point of the marginalized, and refuse to continue to tolerate their dehumanizing plight."

Your response:

"But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace."

Can't you see how irrelevant your response is? So many innocent people, God's children, are being treated in a dehumanizing manner; it cannot be justified because some of them happen to have violent neighbors. Oppression can never be justified. It is always oppression.

Fortunately, God never says to us "first clean up your own side, and then perhaps we can address the other side together in actual peace."

Again, can't you see the mutuality that is needed here? I agree with Troy that we cannot tolerate the dehumanizing conditions and action occuring.

by: daoudkuttab

03-30-2010 @ 5:13am

Your friend Marwan was arrested on Palm Sunday as he and other Christians were carrying out a nonviolent protest. See more www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab

by: theou

04-01-2010 @ 4:58pm

Deeds speak louder than words, GW.
If you take Yasser Arafat's alleged speech, swap the terms "jews" and "arabs" you will get a pretty good historical account of what has happened in Palestine since 1967.
It would not be "six to seven million" Jews it would be six to seven hundred thousand. But if you calculate in the multipling factor of overwhelming military force the effect is the same.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 8:09pm

I don't think "oppression" is the intent of the Israelis. That's the giant false premise constantly put forth. They've been forced (in order to preserve any semblance of a civil, livable existence in their country) to adopt a pro-active stance. That stance I believe is measured and mindful of innocents, but it also lends itself to being easily distorted and ginned up as being indiscriminate.

The problem is not the Israelis, who are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is the same toward them. The problem, and it is a big one, is busses and restaurants full of innocents deliberately blown to bits NOT due to a land dispute, but to brainwashed hatred for Jews.

Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of course I don't presume to speak for Him.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:22pm

"Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would
not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be
no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I
hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of
course I don't presume to speak for Him."

Ah, yes, the ole WWII canard. You have too little faith that God will
protect God's own children, so you insist that it is necessary for us to
take up the sword to do it ourselves. Jesus may have commanded his
disciples to put the sword away, but such words are rejected as being
impractical for us (who are also Jesus' disciples). God, somehow,
cannot be trusted to come through when the chips are down. And so
millions of people are killed in wars. Is this something you think God
is O.K. with?

Flip it around, for a second. If "religious freedom" is the highest
priority, then you may well be right -- that war must be fought to
protect it. But if worshiping and obeying God is a higher priority than
securing religious freedom, then other possibilities arise. Let's not
worship the freedom, let's worship God alone.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:21pm

If oppression is happening, even if unintentional, that is unacceptable.
And it IS happening. Acts of oppression are well documented by reliable
organizations. I have seen sufficient evidence to disbelieve the
"distorted or ginned up" claim that you make. And I also assert that
the oppression is indiscriminate -- often it is focused against
civilians and innocents.

See "www . cpt . org" for substantiation from direct eyewitnesses who
are Christians. If you disagree, then please supply me with a link to
refuting evidence from equally direct eyewitnesses who are also
Christians.

You claim that the Israelis are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is
the same toward them. Then how do you explain the settlements on
Palestinian territory? Taking someone's land to live on is not an act
of tolerance or acceptance, nor is it part of improving the security
picture.

I unequivocally condemn violence done both by Palestinian terrorists and
by the Israeli military and settlers. Will you join me -- agreeing that
the problem is two sided and condemning violence by both sides?

by: Stein

04-05-2010 @ 12:10pm

You are right in observing that there is a balance where God expects us
to partner with God in all the processes of living. Hence we should not
worry about what we should eat, but we need to work to earn a living
nonetheless. So we need to keep this balance.

You started this exchange by taking what I regarded as a cheap shot at
pacifists (look it up to refresh your memory if you need to). My
concern is that such a position is not observably different (i.e. to the
watching world) from having no faith at all. When asked, I believe that
you could articulate the faith in your position; it needs to be repeated
explicitly lest it be crowded out by the cares of the world -- which is
always the temptation on that side of the spectrum [and acknowledging
that pacifism has a different set of temptations on the other side].

So, to maintain a balance, I won't argue for inappropriate application
of blind faith, and correspondingly ask that you not 'dis' those who
take the Prince of Peace at his word and really believe that peace is
possible. We are both people of faith; let us not work to tear each
other down.

by: kschl13

08-27-2010 @ 11:41am

"From the window of my hotel room in Bethlehem, I could see the "security" wall that separates the West Bank from the rest of Israel."

Obvioiusly, the West Bank is not Israel. So the wall does NOT separate the West Bank from "the rest of Israel".
It separates (the people of) the West Bank "from Israel" (PLUS the originally Palestinian land that - through the wall - has been anexed to the Israeli side.

by: GWilson

04-02-2010 @ 10:56pm

"If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?" -- Stein

By that logic, why do we even have a Police department? I think you're taking things a little too literally. God is too busy being your guiding light to also be your police department.

I know of some people who trust God to heal their children when they have curable, treatable diseases and injuries. Unfortunately, more often than not, those children end up dead or permanently disabled.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:12pm

"It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not
defending yourself, and others, against evil."

Well, I certainly challenge you to think and pray about that some more.
If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's
prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:05pm

You continue to assert "Isralis good, Palestinians evil". I disagree.

I think that the grabbing of Palestinian land by Israel would continue
even if all Palestinian terrorist activity were to cease. Israel has
continued to assert its right to new settlements on the very eve of US
Sec. of State visits to start a new peace initiative. That is so
brazen. The settlements are not for security reasons -- they are purely
for financial gain; and they leave so many Palestinians in poverty and
ruin.

Your hypothesis: "If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all
violence, there would be peace and security."

Fact: Israeli settlements continue to expand and take over Palestinian
land in violation of international treaties.

My assertion (tell me if you disagree): The settlements are NOT in
response to Palestinian violence.

When facts contradict hypotheses, the scientific method looks for how
the faulty hypotheses can be revised. Please do so.

P.S. Your quote from 14 years ago from a man who is dead is pretty
dated. You need to get some better material; stop living in the past.
Did you read any of the up-to-date material from the web site I
referenced to you?

P.P.S. I am not asserting "Isralis bad, Palestinians good". There is
no symmetry in our arguments. You're taking the extreme position of
supporting one side; I'm taking the middle. I'm asserting that BOTH
sides are doing bad things, and any solution must be for BOTH sides to
reform.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:46pm

It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not defending yourself, and others, against evil.

Maybe it's just me.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:43pm

Obviously we all "condemn" violence, but all "violence" is not created equal. But there needs to be some recognition that this is not in any way some kind of morally equivalent situation. There are surely many peaceful Palestinians who would love nothing more than to live in peace side by side with Israel. Many live and work in Israel. But there are far too many who wish for nothing short of its elimination:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." --- Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President', Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders

This is the mindset the Israelis are up against. If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all violence, there would be peace and security. If the Israeli side were to do the same, there would be more violence against them.

by: kschl13

08-27-2010 @ 11:41am

"From the window of my hotel room in Bethlehem, I could see the "security" wall that separates the West Bank from the rest of Israel."

Obvioiusly, the West Bank is not Israel. So the wall does NOT separate the West Bank from "the rest of Israel".
It separates (the people of) the West Bank "from Israel" (PLUS the originally Palestinian land that - through the wall - has been anexed to the Israeli side.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: Dave_Metz

03-26-2010 @ 8:43pm

Sobering.

by: Dave_Metz

03-26-2010 @ 8:43pm

Sobering.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 3:55am

"My friend Marwan is a brave, strong Palestinian man who is giving his life to nonviolent resistance against injustice."

Good for him. But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 3:55am

"My friend Marwan is a brave, strong Palestinian man who is giving his life to nonviolent resistance against injustice."

Good for him. But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace.

by: Stein

03-29-2010 @ 2:33pm

"[Christians must] look at the world from the vantage point of the marginalized, and refuse to continue to tolerate their dehumanizing plight."

Your response:

"But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace."

Can't you see how irrelevant your response is? So many innocent people, God's children, are being treated in a dehumanizing manner; it cannot be justified because some of them happen to have violent neighbors. Oppression can never be justified. It is always oppression.

Fortunately, God never says to us "first clean up your own side, and then perhaps we can address the other side together in actual peace."

Again, can't you see the mutuality that is needed here? I agree with Troy that we cannot tolerate the dehumanizing conditions and action occuring.

by: Stein

03-29-2010 @ 2:33pm

"[Christians must] look at the world from the vantage point of the marginalized, and refuse to continue to tolerate their dehumanizing plight."

Your response:

"But you see it's the violent resistance that makes things like the wall and the watchtowers necessary. Tell your friend to clean up his own side of the fence, and then perhaps they can address the other side together in actual peace."

Can't you see how irrelevant your response is? So many innocent people, God's children, are being treated in a dehumanizing manner; it cannot be justified because some of them happen to have violent neighbors. Oppression can never be justified. It is always oppression.

Fortunately, God never says to us "first clean up your own side, and then perhaps we can address the other side together in actual peace."

Again, can't you see the mutuality that is needed here? I agree with Troy that we cannot tolerate the dehumanizing conditions and action occuring.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 8:09pm

I don't think "oppression" is the intent of the Israelis. That's the giant false premise constantly put forth. They've been forced (in order to preserve any semblance of a civil, livable existence in their country) to adopt a pro-active stance. That stance I believe is measured and mindful of innocents, but it also lends itself to being easily distorted and ginned up as being indiscriminate.

The problem is not the Israelis, who are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is the same toward them. The problem, and it is a big one, is busses and restaurants full of innocents deliberately blown to bits NOT due to a land dispute, but to brainwashed hatred for Jews.

Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of course I don't presume to speak for Him.

by: GWilson

03-29-2010 @ 8:09pm

I don't think "oppression" is the intent of the Israelis. That's the giant false premise constantly put forth. They've been forced (in order to preserve any semblance of a civil, livable existence in their country) to adopt a pro-active stance. That stance I believe is measured and mindful of innocents, but it also lends itself to being easily distorted and ginned up as being indiscriminate.

The problem is not the Israelis, who are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is the same toward them. The problem, and it is a big one, is busses and restaurants full of innocents deliberately blown to bits NOT due to a land dispute, but to brainwashed hatred for Jews.

Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of course I don't presume to speak for Him.

by: daoudkuttab

03-30-2010 @ 5:13am

Your friend Marwan was arrested on Palm Sunday as he and other Christians were carrying out a nonviolent protest. See more www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab

by: daoudkuttab

03-30-2010 @ 5:13am

Your friend Marwan was arrested on Palm Sunday as he and other Christians were carrying out a nonviolent protest. See more www.huffingtonpost.com/daoud-kuttab

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:21pm

If oppression is happening, even if unintentional, that is unacceptable.
And it IS happening. Acts of oppression are well documented by reliable
organizations. I have seen sufficient evidence to disbelieve the
"distorted or ginned up" claim that you make. And I also assert that
the oppression is indiscriminate -- often it is focused against
civilians and innocents.

See "www . cpt . org" for substantiation from direct eyewitnesses who
are Christians. If you disagree, then please supply me with a link to
refuting evidence from equally direct eyewitnesses who are also
Christians.

You claim that the Israelis are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is
the same toward them. Then how do you explain the settlements on
Palestinian territory? Taking someone's land to live on is not an act
of tolerance or acceptance, nor is it part of improving the security
picture.

I unequivocally condemn violence done both by Palestinian terrorists and
by the Israeli military and settlers. Will you join me -- agreeing that
the problem is two sided and condemning violence by both sides?

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:21pm

If oppression is happening, even if unintentional, that is unacceptable.
And it IS happening. Acts of oppression are well documented by reliable
organizations. I have seen sufficient evidence to disbelieve the
"distorted or ginned up" claim that you make. And I also assert that
the oppression is indiscriminate -- often it is focused against
civilians and innocents.

See "www . cpt . org" for substantiation from direct eyewitnesses who
are Christians. If you disagree, then please supply me with a link to
refuting evidence from equally direct eyewitnesses who are also
Christians.

You claim that the Israelis are tolerant and accepting of anyone who is
the same toward them. Then how do you explain the settlements on
Palestinian territory? Taking someone's land to live on is not an act
of tolerance or acceptance, nor is it part of improving the security
picture.

I unequivocally condemn violence done both by Palestinian terrorists and
by the Israeli military and settlers. Will you join me -- agreeing that
the problem is two sided and condemning violence by both sides?

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:22pm

"Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would
not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be
no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I
hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of
course I don't presume to speak for Him."

Ah, yes, the ole WWII canard. You have too little faith that God will
protect God's own children, so you insist that it is necessary for us to
take up the sword to do it ourselves. Jesus may have commanded his
disciples to put the sword away, but such words are rejected as being
impractical for us (who are also Jesus' disciples). God, somehow,
cannot be trusted to come through when the chips are down. And so
millions of people are killed in wars. Is this something you think God
is O.K. with?

Flip it around, for a second. If "religious freedom" is the highest
priority, then you may well be right -- that war must be fought to
protect it. But if worshiping and obeying God is a higher priority than
securing religious freedom, then other possibilities arise. Let's not
worship the freedom, let's worship God alone.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 4:22pm

"Keeping with your pacifist mindset during WWII, I dare say you would
not be enjoying your religious freedom today, and there would indeed be
no Jewish State, nor Jews, causing problems in the entire world. I
hardly think that would be something God would be O.K. with, but of
course I don't presume to speak for Him."

Ah, yes, the ole WWII canard. You have too little faith that God will
protect God's own children, so you insist that it is necessary for us to
take up the sword to do it ourselves. Jesus may have commanded his
disciples to put the sword away, but such words are rejected as being
impractical for us (who are also Jesus' disciples). God, somehow,
cannot be trusted to come through when the chips are down. And so
millions of people are killed in wars. Is this something you think God
is O.K. with?

Flip it around, for a second. If "religious freedom" is the highest
priority, then you may well be right -- that war must be fought to
protect it. But if worshiping and obeying God is a higher priority than
securing religious freedom, then other possibilities arise. Let's not
worship the freedom, let's worship God alone.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:43pm

Obviously we all "condemn" violence, but all "violence" is not created equal. But there needs to be some recognition that this is not in any way some kind of morally equivalent situation. There are surely many peaceful Palestinians who would love nothing more than to live in peace side by side with Israel. Many live and work in Israel. But there are far too many who wish for nothing short of its elimination:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." --- Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President', Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders

This is the mindset the Israelis are up against. If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all violence, there would be peace and security. If the Israeli side were to do the same, there would be more violence against them.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:43pm

Obviously we all "condemn" violence, but all "violence" is not created equal. But there needs to be some recognition that this is not in any way some kind of morally equivalent situation. There are surely many peaceful Palestinians who would love nothing more than to live in peace side by side with Israel. Many live and work in Israel. But there are far too many who wish for nothing short of its elimination:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." --- Yasser Arafat - Palestinian 'President', Jan. 30, 1996, Private speech to Arab leaders

This is the mindset the Israelis are up against. If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all violence, there would be peace and security. If the Israeli side were to do the same, there would be more violence against them.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:46pm

It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not defending yourself, and others, against evil.

Maybe it's just me.

by: GWilson

03-30-2010 @ 6:46pm

It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not defending yourself, and others, against evil.

Maybe it's just me.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:05pm

You continue to assert "Isralis good, Palestinians evil". I disagree.

I think that the grabbing of Palestinian land by Israel would continue
even if all Palestinian terrorist activity were to cease. Israel has
continued to assert its right to new settlements on the very eve of US
Sec. of State visits to start a new peace initiative. That is so
brazen. The settlements are not for security reasons -- they are purely
for financial gain; and they leave so many Palestinians in poverty and
ruin.

Your hypothesis: "If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all
violence, there would be peace and security."

Fact: Israeli settlements continue to expand and take over Palestinian
land in violation of international treaties.

My assertion (tell me if you disagree): The settlements are NOT in
response to Palestinian violence.

When facts contradict hypotheses, the scientific method looks for how
the faulty hypotheses can be revised. Please do so.

P.S. Your quote from 14 years ago from a man who is dead is pretty
dated. You need to get some better material; stop living in the past.
Did you read any of the up-to-date material from the web site I
referenced to you?

P.P.S. I am not asserting "Isralis bad, Palestinians good". There is
no symmetry in our arguments. You're taking the extreme position of
supporting one side; I'm taking the middle. I'm asserting that BOTH
sides are doing bad things, and any solution must be for BOTH sides to
reform.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:05pm

You continue to assert "Isralis good, Palestinians evil". I disagree.

I think that the grabbing of Palestinian land by Israel would continue
even if all Palestinian terrorist activity were to cease. Israel has
continued to assert its right to new settlements on the very eve of US
Sec. of State visits to start a new peace initiative. That is so
brazen. The settlements are not for security reasons -- they are purely
for financial gain; and they leave so many Palestinians in poverty and
ruin.

Your hypothesis: "If the Palestinian side were to stop any and all
violence, there would be peace and security."

Fact: Israeli settlements continue to expand and take over Palestinian
land in violation of international treaties.

My assertion (tell me if you disagree): The settlements are NOT in
response to Palestinian violence.

When facts contradict hypotheses, the scientific method looks for how
the faulty hypotheses can be revised. Please do so.

P.S. Your quote from 14 years ago from a man who is dead is pretty
dated. You need to get some better material; stop living in the past.
Did you read any of the up-to-date material from the web site I
referenced to you?

P.P.S. I am not asserting "Isralis bad, Palestinians good". There is
no symmetry in our arguments. You're taking the extreme position of
supporting one side; I'm taking the middle. I'm asserting that BOTH
sides are doing bad things, and any solution must be for BOTH sides to
reform.

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:12pm

"It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not
defending yourself, and others, against evil."

Well, I certainly challenge you to think and pray about that some more.
If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's
prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?

by: Stein

03-30-2010 @ 7:12pm

"It's one thing to trust God. But I hardly think that includes not
defending yourself, and others, against evil."

Well, I certainly challenge you to think and pray about that some more.
If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's
prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?

by: theou

04-01-2010 @ 4:58pm

Deeds speak louder than words, GW.
If you take Yasser Arafat's alleged speech, swap the terms "jews" and "arabs" you will get a pretty good historical account of what has happened in Palestine since 1967.
It would not be "six to seven million" Jews it would be six to seven hundred thousand. But if you calculate in the multipling factor of overwhelming military force the effect is the same.

by: theou

04-01-2010 @ 4:58pm

Deeds speak louder than words, GW.
If you take Yasser Arafat's alleged speech, swap the terms "jews" and "arabs" you will get a pretty good historical account of what has happened in Palestine since 1967.
It would not be "six to seven million" Jews it would be six to seven hundred thousand. But if you calculate in the multipling factor of overwhelming military force the effect is the same.

by: GWilson

04-02-2010 @ 10:56pm

"If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?" -- Stein

By that logic, why do we even have a Police department? I think you're taking things a little too literally. God is too busy being your guiding light to also be your police department.

I know of some people who trust God to heal their children when they have curable, treatable diseases and injuries. Unfortunately, more often than not, those children end up dead or permanently disabled.

by: GWilson

04-02-2010 @ 10:56pm

"If you can't trust God to defend you from evil (as we pray in the Lord's prayer) then what does trusting God even mean to you?" -- Stein

By that logic, why do we even have a Police department? I think you're taking things a little too literally. God is too busy being your guiding light to also be your police department.

I know of some people who trust God to heal their children when they have curable, treatable diseases and injuries. Unfortunately, more often than not, those children end up dead or permanently disabled.

by: Stein

04-05-2010 @ 12:10pm

You are right in observing that there is a balance where God expects us
to partner with God in all the processes of living. Hence we should not
worry about what we should eat, but we need to work to earn a living
nonetheless. So we need to keep this balance.

You started this exchange by taking what I regarded as a cheap shot at
pacifists (look it up to refresh your memory if you need to). My
concern is that such a position is not observably different (i.e. to the
watching world) from having no faith at all. When asked, I believe that
you could articulate the faith in your position; it needs to be repeated
explicitly lest it be crowded out by the cares of the world -- which is
always the temptation on that side of the spectrum [and acknowledging
that pacifism has a different set of temptations on the other side].

So, to maintain a balance, I won't argue for inappropriate application
of blind faith, and correspondingly ask that you not 'dis' those who
take the Prince of Peace at his word and really believe that peace is
possible. We are both people of faith; let us not work to tear each
other down.

by: Stein

04-05-2010 @ 12:10pm

You are right in observing that there is a balance where God expects us
to partner with God in all the processes of living. Hence we should not
worry about what we should eat, but we need to work to earn a living
nonetheless. So we need to keep this balance.

You started this exchange by taking what I regarded as a cheap shot at
pacifists (look it up to refresh your memory if you need to). My
concern is that such a position is not observably different (i.e. to the
watching world) from having no faith at all. When asked, I believe that
you could articulate the faith in your position; it needs to be repeated
explicitly lest it be crowded out by the cares of the world -- which is
always the temptation on that side of the spectrum [and acknowledging
that pacifism has a different set of temptations on the other side].

So, to maintain a balance, I won't argue for inappropriate application
of blind faith, and correspondingly ask that you not 'dis' those who
take the Prince of Peace at his word and really believe that peace is
possible. We are both people of faith; let us not work to tear each
other down.

by: kschl13

08-27-2010 @ 11:41am

"From the window of my hotel room in Bethlehem, I could see the "security" wall that separates the West Bank from the rest of Israel."

Obvioiusly, the West Bank is not Israel. So the wall does NOT separate the West Bank from "the rest of Israel".
It separates (the people of) the West Bank "from Israel" (PLUS the originally Palestinian land that - through the wall - has been anexed to the Israeli side.

by: kschl13

08-27-2010 @ 11:41am

"From the window of my hotel room in Bethlehem, I could see the "security" wall that separates the West Bank from the rest of Israel."

Obvioiusly, the West Bank is not Israel. So the wall does NOT separate the West Bank from "the rest of Israel".
It separates (the people of) the West Bank "from Israel" (PLUS the originally Palestinian land that - through the wall - has been anexed to the Israeli side.