Christian Militias, Revelation, and Christ's Consistent Nonviolence

Dear hammerud,

I am trying to imagine a scenario in which I stand idly by and allow an evil-doer to murder myself or my family. I hope I would be as Jesus facing death and violence at the hands of a mob--and protecting those he loved.

1) He prayed his Father would keep those he loved from the evil one. 2) He prayed that the Truth would sanctify them.
3) He prayed:"I in them, and thou in me , that they may be perfected into one; so that the world may know thou didst send me, and didst love them,as thou didst love me."

All this and more is in the final prayer before Jesus and his beloved brothers were accosted in the garden at John 17.

It is well to note that Jesus prayed for them while they felt free to sleep with their knives hidden in their bosoms. "Pray, lest you fall into temptation." Jesus advised. But they slept on.
When the mob arrived Jesus was not idly standing by. He was as prepared as his Father willed that he be."You seek me? Then let these others go."
Peter wounded a man then and we hear Jesus ask Peter, "The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?"

Without doubt it would require faith and prayer to respond as Jesus did but Jesus indicates that what faith we lack,we pray for. Peter, without his sword, find his faith insufficient to hold his ground and even denies Jesus in the next few hours.

Can there be a scenario in which we fail Jesus if we do as Jesus did?

All but two of the original apostles plus Paul died violent deaths.

And who keeps mentioning those people? Not me.

You want to identify for us a left wing militia group in the US???

They are not annoying, tiresome, and certainly not funny! They are inciting hatred and the downfall of what America has historically stood for - acceptance, tolerance, welcoming the huddled masses who long for freedom, the right to worship as you please, equality among all people, etc. I don't think anyone who advocated hating other Americans or even other humans is annoying, tiresome, or funny...especially when the reason they do it is for financial gain.

you are correct. he was anti-government, anti-tax, andti-healthcare, rightwing......completely the opposite of the person UMC described. perhaps you heard this spin on Hannity's show, UMC?

no, this is not true.

"Weapons reflect fear, not faith."

I love this simple statement, Viney. It's so true. Think about the white American man today who carries a concealed handgun when he's at the mall or TGI Friday's with his wife and kids becasue he's afraid of all the young black men out to get him.....that man who is fearful in his own house and would never even dream of venturing into the other side of town...

And then think of Mother Teresa, who spent every day deep in the heart of the worst slums, surrounded by people that, by that man's reasoning, should be out to get her. Think of the faith she had to live amongst them, armed only with Christ's love in her.

Yes, perfect love casts out fear, and fear and faith are mutually exclusive.

These postings are getting way off topic, as usual. I get frustrated when all this gets personal. I'm not opposed to both the right and left being on here, but can't we all be more respectful? Ugh.

I am very much in agreement with most of Mr. McLaren's views, and to a large extent, I am in alignment with what he is suggesting here.

However, I must comment that we are often caught up in misadventures of syntax and the inevitable shallowness of language when approaching the deeper things in life. Violence is much more than physical, and I think we get caught up there a lot. I truly believe we are missing a large part of what is being said, and missing even more that is to be understood.

Why does that matter?

Most of us are deathly afraid of physical violence, and that fear is only equalled in severity by our sheer lack of experience regarding it.

How much of this is our first world softness trying to bring God into our safe place? God is not safe, by any means. How is this different than the war mongers pointing to their revered passages in Scripture to bring God onto the battlefield, or into the torture chamber?

My point being here, is that if we, the removed (from violence), try and make God like us in our misunderstanding, we are committing a very dangerous act of assumption. To suggest that God is a non violent God can mean an awful lot of things, and I would simply like to say that like anything true, it would be better understood as something that points out your subjective take on violence, rather than God's real view.

The great thinker G.K Chesterton points out a deep truth here I think the emerging Jesus movement is missing in regards to social understanding from his book Heretics:

"The evil of militarism is not that it shows certain men to be fierce and haughty and excessively warlike. The evil of militarism is that it shows most men to be tame and timid and excessively peaceable. The professional soldier gains more and more power as the general courage of a community declines...All ages and all epics have sung of arms and the man; but we have effected simultaneously the deterioration of the man and the fantastic perfection of the arms."

Peace be with us all, but let us be careful what sort of peace we are wishing for.

WOW, so much arguing back and forth over who is more violent, the radical left or the radical right. Can't we all just agree that there are nuts and kooks on both sides of the spectrum, and that one action does not represent a whole group?!?

I mean our own President used to pal around with one of the guys responsible for the pentagon and capital hill bombings...yet we have faith that his views are not similar to those he associated with.

Ngchen wrote:

"Well, it's hard to reconcile the idea that God doesn't punish with much of the OT, which records divine punishment for a variety of offenses. As for Revelation, part of it seems to be about punishment of wickedness at some point in time (past? future?). But yes, in some sense hell is being separated from God, hating what is good, probably by one's own will. I've heard it argued that in some way the gates of hell are locked from the inside, yet those there have reached a point where they are unwilling to swallow their pride to open it."

I am no Biblical scholar or theologian. I take the Biblical sanctions as warnings of inevitable consequenxces and the rules by which God wants us to live. jThe way I see it is if you choose to live without God's guidance adn love here on earth, that's your choice and the consequence is that you will also exist in eternity outside His love and guidance. It's a recognition that if you didn't want God's presence in your earthly life, why would you want it for an eternity. God is there for all who seek Him but it is our choice ultimately.
I can see how the idea of the doors are locked from the inside is consistent with this view.

For those who think the Hutaree terrorists are merely a "fringe movement", take another look:

...Mark Potok, the executive director of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks extremist groups, says:
"The Hutaree were apparently ensconced right smack in the middle of the militia movement," said Potok.
Potok explained that the more secular militia groups foresee an impending catastrophe in the form of the federal government confiscating weapons, imposing martial law, and herding those who resist into concentration camps. Ultimately, he said, they fear that the U.S. will be subsumed into a socialistic "One World Order," under supra-national bodies like the U.N. or the EU.
"The only difference with the Hutarees is that they put this millenial spin on it," Potok said. In their version, the coming catastrophe involves the appearance of the Anti-Christ, but groups like the U.N. and E.U. are also vilified. "It's very much the same idea."

If you visit the militia websites (the Hutaree site had links to militia organizations all over America, but has been taken down as of yesterday) you will find an abundance of fear mongering, blatant racism, threats of violence, graphic depictions of violence, worship of weaponry, twisted right wing Christianity, libertarian sloganeering, "Don't Tread On Me" yellow Gadsden flags, references to the Tea Party, ad infinitum.

These militia movements are armed to the teeth.
They listen and respond to "dog whistle" rhetoric from the right wing GOP leadership.
Don't kid yourself - this is nothing like left wing extremism.
We ignore these psychopaths at our own peril.
We need to hold the GOP leadership accountable for incitement to violence.

talk to the slaves about constitutional freedom.

If only the martyrs had a sword..

"Commonsense conservatives/lovers of America" to "RELOAD" and published a graphic listing twenty Democrats who voted for the health care bill and marked their locations on the U.S. map with crosshairs"

So you progressive who do not take anything in the Bible literal, but you do take this literal.

How convienvent.

VineyD, What does Jesus mean by--give up your life to save it? I believe he means give up the false idea about yourself. You think you're a conservative republican with the right answers? You think you're a liberal democrat with the right answers? You're operating out of a false self, on the attack of another false self. Give up your false self and come back to the center of Jesus' teaching.

Christian?? ...Militia! What a lie! Followers of the Prince of Peace will eschew violence!

dfischler wrote: Patricia: Get a grip. It is slanderous to accuse the people you mention of "inciting violence." They are no more inciting violence by calling people to oppose public policy they object to than Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are inciting violence against insurance executives and Wall Street bankers by denouncing their actions.

The group your news item points to is pure fringe nutcase--just like any of a number of such groups and individuals on the left. Trying to associate such extremists with mainstream individuals or groups that you oppose is a reprehensible practice and a sin against the Ninth Commandment.
........................

I can't speak for Patricia, but I think I understand where she's coming from. For example, Sarah Palin didn't say "People, oppose public policy you object to." In the wake of death threats and vandalism against several democrats, she told "Commonsense conservatives/lovers of America" to "RELOAD" and published a graphic listing twenty Democrats who voted for the health care bill and marked their locations on the U.S. map with crosshairs. (I think that's a much better example of "reprehensible" than the one you gave.)

During elections, we're used to hearing both sides use war terminology like "battleground states" and normally that wouldn't be considered inflammatory. But she purposefully chose that specific imagery knowing that some of the people on her list had recently been threatened with acts of violence.

A perfectly innocent figure of speech? I ain't buyin' it. At best, it was incredibly irresponsible and shows really poor judgment from someone who claims to be capable of leading our country. And instead of saying, "In light of the current atmosphere perhaps she could've phrased that differently", the others all defended her choices and claimed that (I'm paraphrasing here) she was unjustly accused of inciting violence and that anyone who read anything more into it is either out to get her or just too stupid to understand what she meant. I don't think so.

They do not incite violence, that is a blatant lie! I have never been involved in the political process until now. There are no victims here, only those people who wish to live without their government legislating all areas and aspects of their lives. What to eat and drink, how to live, what to think, how to raise your children, etc. the list goes on and on. I will fight, through the political process for my right to free choice. The battle is for liberty vs tyranny.

Yes Pastor Jeff, but there are no more slaves, except those that this central government wishes to create. And it is Pastors like you who stand on the pulpit and promote your leftist agenda. So, why are you so surprised that there are those that oppose it also stand on the pulpit against it?

"What do people think about the American flag and the Bible holding hands?"
I think it's idolatry.

"So you progressives who do not take anything in the Bible literal[sic] . . ." Do you know a progressive who does not take anything in the Bible literally? We don't take everything literally. I've never known anyone who does. While I would not take putting crosshairs on the map literally, it is highly suggestive. If my residence were marked with crosshairs on somebody's map, I would certainly take it as a significant threat.

How do we square the notion of a non-violent God with a God who will exact vengeance in due time (Romans 12:19). After all, isn't one of the main reasons why we are supposed to forgive our enemies the idea that God will deal with it?

With such being said, I can understand how even God probably wouldn't be fond of punishing the wicked, even though it ultimately is necessary due to their persistent unbelief.

umc wrote: "Commonsense conservatives/lovers of America" to "RELOAD" and published a graphic listing twenty Democrats who voted for the health care bill and marked their locations on the U.S. map with crosshairs"

So you progressive who do not take anything in the Bible literal, but you do take this literal.

How convienvent.
............

You read three paragraphs, handpicked one sentence, and surmised that you know me well enough to conclude what I believe about the Bible?
How convenient!

Palin's choice of words and graphics were irresponsible and insulting given the fact that she knew others had threatened the lives of some of the people she was pointing crosshairs at. Of all the figurative imagery she could've used to get her point across, she chose examples that the violent fringe element amongst her supporters is likely to "take literal".
A mere coincidence?
How convenient.

If a left-leaning cable news contributor had done the same thing (and been defended by other democrats/pundits/bloggers) I would have the same opinion of it.
...How does that tell you what I do or don't take literally?