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Turning the Tables of White-European-Male-Privilege: 'Our' Tables, 'Their' Tables, and New Tables

[Read more of this blog conversation in response to the Sojourners article "Is the 'Emerging Church' for Whites Only?"]

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Lisa Sharon Harper gets it right in her recent open letter. She responds to important conversations being raised around Soong-Chan Rah's recent book and Sojo piece.

Some folks won't go there, but others of us, for conscience's sake, have to grapple with the issue of Christendom and colonialism -- and the inherent white-European-male-privilege with which Christendom has been historically and theologically complicit.

As Lisa explains, the Christians who have opened this discussion have been largely non-white and non-male. Sooner or later, white folks like me -- especially the white males like me who have held the vast majority of the power in the Christian religion in all its main forms -- have to decide if we are willing to become peers with our non-white, non-male sisters and brothers. We have to decide -- not just if we will give "them" a place at "our" table, but if we will go join "them" at "their" table -- perhaps someday together forming new tables where "us" and "them" disappear into a larger "us."

Are we who have had the majority of power willing to learn to see the world from the perspective of the sub-altern (or marginal, non-privileged)? Are we willing -- not simply to bring "the other" into our field of hegemony and homogeneity, enhancing our "diversity" (which can too easily simply be another form of colonization) -- but to enter into the space created by those who have suffered under our hegemony and homogeneity? Are we willing to see margins as horizons?

Here's how I expressed the issue in the last chapter of A New Kind of Christianity:

As we've seen, the term Christianity (like its cousin orthodoxy) has too often camouflaged something quite foreign to Christ and his message, something that is more the problem than the solution: a fusion of Greek philosophy and Roman power, alloyed or adorned with elements drawn from the Bible, which is interpreted and applied in ways that often betray Jesus' life and teaching. Its defenders have unofficially mandated that when people try to modify that Greco-Roman orthodoxy, they must wear an adjective that brands them as aberrant, like a scarlet "A" sewn on their soul. For example, when theologians read the Bible through the lens of the Exodus narrative, they are called "liberation theologians," but their counterparts who read it through the Greco-Roman narrative are never labeled "domination theologians" or "colonization theologians." Similarly, we have "black theology" and "feminist theology," but Greco-Roman orthodoxy is never called "white theology" or "male theology." Having become utterly normative for most of us, it's just "theology." (p. 256)

I then acknowledge that even my book's clumsy modifier "a new kind of" can simply be a way of letting those in power tolerate diversity without addressing the deeper issues of violence, racism, colonialism, sexism, and imperialism that lie unacknowledged or hide undetected within hallowed words like Christianity, Evangelical, Mainline, Catholic, Orthodox, and so on.

So, thank God for Lisa Sharon Harper, Soong-Chan Rah, Tony Jones, Gabriel Salguero, and others who have waded into this profoundly and painfully important subject. The process is awkward and messy at times, but as my friend Randy Woodley says in The Justice Project, the key issue is to stay at the table when you're hurt and offended and misunderstood and made uncomfortable.

May we all -- especially those of us who are white and/or male -- come and stay at the table, pause to listen before we react, take a deep breath to expand before we contract, and prayerfully remain open before we shut down. Because now, I'd say, is when the emergent conversation (whatever it's called) could get more interesting and important than ever.

On a happy note, just as I was reading through this important thread of conversation, I received the announcement of this November's emergent village theological conversation. The topic and speakers -- as well as the makeup of the emergent village council -- bring joy to my heart, and speak to a hopeful future. We all live in the creative tension of progress made and a long way yet to go.

Brian McLarenBrian McLaren is an author and speaker whose new book is A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith. This post is excerpted from a longer entry on his blog.

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by: MouseHouse

04-23-2010 @ 8:57am

I guess my question (and I'm not being snide here, just an observation from someone from Asia) is how do we square the diversity of non-white voices with how much classic Billy Graham style evangelicalism and neo Pentecostalism (which many would see as antithetical to the kind of diversity that Brian seems to be calling for) deeply resonates with the non-white world, especially in Asia, far more than progressive Christianity? I realise this post is speaking in the context of US Christianity.. but just a thought.

by: Jesusistheway

04-24-2010 @ 9:41pm

Blessings to you and your work. Shalom.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 6:17am

If only your comments were serious and not sarcastic, for indeed this nation is in deep need of spiritual healing for the sins of her past. Or have you not heard of generational sin?

I've been concerned lately that many who are offended by suggestions like Brian's seem to lack empathy. Recent comments made by one acquaintance, that Native Americans should just "get over it", typify this observation. How might empathy inform our understanding of non-white people groups and their experiences? How might empathy inform our viewpoint of history and where we are today in our relations with each other? How might empathy cause us to respond more with compassion than with defensiveness? How might empathy help us to tear down walls of racism and the hurts from the very serious offenses of the past?

by: mjanem

04-23-2010 @ 4:13am

Mourning the legacy of our ancestors is at least a step toward reconciliation and toward a fuller understanding of the cross.

Jesus is indeed The Way: "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." - Ephesians 2:14-18.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

by: jperry

04-22-2010 @ 11:26pm

Those espousing this anti-Christian, hateful ideology are not interested in true justice, or in Christ's teachings. Rather, they are seeking to exploit Christianity, to promote an agenda that is about hatred and intolerance, it's about imposing slavery, nothing more.

Christ spoke out against greed, corruption, hypocrisy and hatred. Nor did Christ advocate for discrimination based on skin color, he didn't play to externals, but rather to what was in our hearts and minds, our very souls. I don't read that message here. What I do read is an intolerant rant, that is about pitting one group against another in order to oppress the rights of others. It's a call to provide an entitlement to hatred and corruption of the innocent. It was in fact, white Christians, many of them white male Christians who fought to end slavery, which infuriated the Arabs and Africans who fattened their purses with human trafficking. It was also white Christians, who created the concept of human and civil rights. All Wallis' seems to be in aid of, is perverting and corrupting the concepts and ending them.

Jim Wallis and his fellow travelers do not care about lifting the poor out of poverty, or giving them dignity through Christ's teachings.. they are little more than something he seeks to use.

Wallis and his fellow travelers don't address the fact that Greek and Roman societies weren't the only ones oppressing and abusing others, weren't the only colonial empires. Such things were a global phenomenon. Africa had sold it's people as slaves, long before the first English, Dutch or American bought or sold a slave. Africa has sold it's people as long as there has been an Africa, and they sold their people as slaves to Arabs for 10, 000 years. The trans-Atlantic slave trade was created by the Spanish, after they had committed genocide against the indigenous peoples of what we now call Latin America. They brought more than 8,000,000 African slaves to those lands, and worked virtually all of them to death. Those Spanish who committed genocide and enslaved, and slaughtered greedily were not all "white" skinned, nor do "brown" skinned Hispanics equate to indigenous heritage. Anyone who has been to Spain knows this for a fact, and anyone familiar with indigenous peoples know that they do not look like Hispanic people, their bone structure, hair, even facial hair is markedly different.

Jim Wallis doesn't seem to have a problem with the corruption, the cruelty or lack of justice in Latin America, in fact he seeks to rationalize the imposition of it here. He is in bed with the historic enemies of even the minimum wage, of wage standards, workplace protection, food, drug and product safety provisions and environmental protections, the US Chamber of Commerce and Business Roundtable. Wallis' much loved MDG's via the UN is being used to fund the rape and slaughter of Africans, Pakistanis and Indians, especially those who are Christian. African Anglican priests and bishops have exposed what is happening in many African nations, the abuses of corrupt governments who use these funds to line their pockets, to buy luxuries, as well as being used to purchase weapons used to maim, and kill Africans, including in the Sudan. Not a peep out of Wallis and his kind on the subject, but perhaps his meaning for "emerging church" means something different than what he'd purport it to mean? I'll wager that the god Wallis worships, is a golden idol.

Wallis refuses to address the fact that his advocacy for illegal aliens, has displaced American citizen workers, many of whom are black Americans. He's also one of those whose attacks against any discussion of the harm brought about by not enforcing our immigration laws, has created an un-Christian attitude among illegal aliens, that they have a right to rob, rape, and kill American citizens and get away with it. This same attitude is on display by the various illegal alien amnesty groups, who refuse to address the criminal acts, the rapes and murders of citizens by illegals. The family of a wonderful young man in Los Angeles, who was murdered by an illegal alien gang banger, the Shaws, have been threatened, coerced, and abused by the illegal alien lobby, and corrupt democrats, merely for trying to get legislation on the ballot to amend Special Order 40 in such a way that any person who is arrested have their immigration status checked. The illegal alien gang banger who shot young Jamiel to death, had just been released from prison (he had a long and extensive record of violent crime), and when he saw Jamiel, he decided to kill him, the gang he belongs to, have all it's members tattoo the letters, "KB" on the backs of their necks, because to them, killing blacks is an activity they like to do. Jamiel, a young man with a stellar grade point average, who was being scouted by universities because he was a football star, was a good son, and wonderful big brother was shot to death a few doors down from his home. His mother was serving in Iraq. While gathering signatures on a petition in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles, the corrupt and cowardly mayor of the city, sent SWAT teams and helicopters to harass the family, demanding they provide documentation to prove their legal right to be in the country.. something they refuse to do to illegal aliens arrested for crimes. This was done to intimidate and punish them for daring to petition their government to seek redress. The mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaragosa, is himself the son of illegal aliens, and a former gang member, as well as a member of the Hispanic hate group, MeCHA. Tens of thousands of innocent black Americans in California alone have been murdered by Wallis' illegal aliens, and millions have been displaced from the jobs they held in that state alone. Young and old, black Americans have been forced out of jobs, and denied new ones, but by illegal aliens and their corrupt employers. White Americans have been subjected to the same displacement and discrimination.

The way Wallis speaks, it's as if all white Americans are wealthy and privileged. The facts are, that there are plenty of poor and suffering white Americans, just as there plenty of poor black and brown American citizens. The policies Wallis demands be implemented will only continue to increase the poverty of US citizens, as they already have created the tent cities that exist all across our nation, tent cities that Wallis, and those like him refuse to recognize. Wallis is regressive, he is the sort of man who spoke out of both sides of his face in centuries past. He's a sham clergyman, just like those who documented genocide and slavery throughout the world. He doesn't believe in God, or in Christ's teachings, they are a disguise he uses to collect dupes to exploit.

by: Jesusistheway

04-22-2010 @ 10:20pm

As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them.

by: RubyLou

04-22-2010 @ 4:25pm

Amen! It is an exciting time to be a part of Emergent---and to be a Christian. Thank you for keeping the conversation going.

by: soskaai

07-04-2011 @ 7:35am

LinkedIn

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This is a reminder that on June 20, Sospeter Gatobu sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Sospeter Gatobu's invitation.

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by: soskaai

07-04-2011 @ 7:35am

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 20, Sospeter Gatobu sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Sospeter Gatobu's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/e91...

Signing up is free and takes less than a minute.

by: soskaai

07-04-2011 @ 7:34am

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 20, Sospeter Gatobu sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Sospeter Gatobu's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/5mw...

Signing up is free and takes less than a minute.

by: dlowen

04-23-2010 @ 1:53pm

I'm right there with you on this one. As a privileged white male living in the South, people have a tendency to assume that I am part of the group that wants to maintain the status quo of white power. I did work hard to get my education and work long hours to earn a good living, but my road has been easy compared to many who have less. White folks aren't any more corrupt than any other race, just culturally raised to think they are ethnically superior, and that is as much a curse to our children as the reverse.

I wish every American could have the opportunity that I had to live for a few years in another country that doesn't speak English, where I was the ethnic minority (somewhere below 0.01%.) Of course, it was not the same as the reversed role in this country because most of the nationals automatically looked up to me because I was an American, favored by God. Perhaps one day we will all understand that God is "particularly fond" of each of His/Her children. (Read The Shack for a deeper understanding of the meaning of the last sentence.)

Peace y'all.

by: NC77

04-23-2010 @ 1:29pm

Unless it is born of the Holy Spirit it is not of God. Once again, this apparent confusion within emergent movement was addressed by Paul. 1 Corinthians, Chapters 1 and 2. Who within the emergent fad claims the leading of the Holy Spirit and God's annointing on their lives to lead the church in the direction being sought? God will not lead his people in a direction that cannot be clearly articulated and understood without strife, and supported by the scriptures.

John 16:5-16.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-22-2010 @ 7:28pm

I think I like the image of journey better than the table.

The table makes for strained conversation; ie straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I'll journey towards Jesus and gladly converse/relate to any bro's and sis's goin that way.

Keep your eyes on the prize.

by: soskaai

06-20-2011 @ 8:04pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Sospeter

Sospeter Gatobu

Research fellow/Teaching Assistant at University of Waterloo

Kitchener, Canada Area

Confirm that you know Sospeter Gatobu

https://www.linkedin.com/e/5mw...

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by: soskaai

06-20-2011 @ 8:04pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Sospeter

Sospeter Gatobu

Research fellow/Teaching Assistant at University of Waterloo

Kitchener, Canada Area

Confirm that you know Sospeter Gatobu

https://www.linkedin.com/e/e91...

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(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation

by: soskaai

06-20-2011 @ 8:03pm

LinkedIn

------------

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Sospeter

Sospeter Gatobu

Research fellow/Teaching Assistant at University of Waterloo

Kitchener, Canada Area

Confirm that you know Sospeter Gatobu

https://www.linkedin.com/e/u70...

--

(c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 5:18pm

They came with a Bible and a gun...they asked us to close our eyes to pray. When we opened our eyes, they had taken all our land, and resources...

This in a crude nutshell is the feeling of many in Africa who associate Christianity with white people (male of female). And on this, many reject Christ and the Christian faith.

Can we find it in our hearts to discuss such things at the "table" or as we walk hand-in-hand on that journey? Can we at least remove Christ from such deeds in the past and say "No, Christ was not in that picture?"...just a thought.

by: mjanem

04-22-2010 @ 8:53pm

Thank you for this post. It is refreshing in its humility. And I look forward to the conversation to unfold.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 1:03pm

I'm sorry that was your response. I guess I thought my questions were worth thinking about and discussion. This is the second time on this blog that I have invoked the word empathy. The first time the person completely ignored it--twice. This time you respond defensively. I would have liked to know your thoughts on how empathy could change things in this nation as a whole, but you preferred to take it personally. Sorry to have engaged with you. This time I mean it when I say I will leave you alone. Blessings on you and all you do for others.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 12:24pm

squeaky,
whatever I say -- you have no idea what I do in my life for others -- will not be good enough for you. I'm sorry you have to disagree with anyone who isn't it line with a certain paradigm. I guess discussion is more important than what we put into practice in our daily lives. I seek to reconcile each day on my job. But I'm not trying to please you, or Brian Mclaren or Jim Wallis. There is only One who I need to respond and be accountable to.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 5:47pm

Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian areas in the world.

by: MouseHouse

04-23-2010 @ 8:57am

I guess my question (and I'm not being snide here, just an observation from someone from Asia) is how do we square the diversity of non-white voices with how much classic Billy Graham style evangelicalism and neo Pentecostalism (which many would see as antithetical to the kind of diversity that Brian seems to be calling for) deeply resonates with the non-white world, especially in Asia, far more than progressive Christianity? I realise this post is speaking in the context of US Christianity.. but just a thought.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 6:17am

If only your comments were serious and not sarcastic, for indeed this nation is in deep need of spiritual healing for the sins of her past. Or have you not heard of generational sin?

I've been concerned lately that many who are offended by suggestions like Brian's seem to lack empathy. Recent comments made by one acquaintance, that Native Americans should just "get over it", typify this observation. How might empathy inform our understanding of non-white people groups and their experiences? How might empathy inform our viewpoint of history and where we are today in our relations with each other? How might empathy cause us to respond more with compassion than with defensiveness? How might empathy help us to tear down walls of racism and the hurts from the very serious offenses of the past?

by: mjanem

04-23-2010 @ 4:13am

Mourning the legacy of our ancestors is at least a step toward reconciliation and toward a fuller understanding of the cross.

Jesus is indeed The Way: "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." - Ephesians 2:14-18.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

by: jperry

04-22-2010 @ 11:26pm

Those espousing this anti-Christian, hateful ideology are not interested in true justice, or in Christ's teachings. Rather, they are seeking to exploit Christianity, to promote an agenda that is about hatred and intolerance, it's about imposing slavery, nothing more.

Christ spoke out against greed, corruption, hypocrisy and hatred. Nor did Christ advocate for discrimination based on skin color, he didn't play to externals, but rather to what was in our hearts and minds, our very souls. I don't read that message here. What I do read is an intolerant rant, that is about pitting one group against another in order to oppress the rights of others. It's a call to provide an entitlement to hatred and corruption of the innocent. It was in fact, white Christians, many of them white male Christians who fought to end slavery, which infuriated the Arabs and Africans who fattened their purses with human trafficking. It was also white Christians, who created the concept of human and civil rights. All Wallis' seems to be in aid of, is perverting and corrupting the concepts and ending them.

Jim Wallis and his fellow travelers do not care about lifting the poor out of poverty, or giving them dignity through Christ's teachings.. they are little more than something he seeks to use.

Wallis and his fellow travelers don't address the fact that Greek and Roman societies weren't the only ones oppressing and abusing others, weren't the only colonial empires. Such things were a global phenomenon. Africa had sold it's people as slaves, long before the first English, Dutch or American bought or sold a slave. Africa has sold it's people as long as there has been an Africa, and they sold their people as slaves to Arabs for 10, 000 years. The trans-Atlantic slave trade was created by the Spanish, after they had committed genocide against the indigenous peoples of what we now call Latin America. They brought more than 8,000,000 African slaves to those lands, and worked virtually all of them to death. Those Spanish who committed genocide and enslaved, and slaughtered greedily were not all "white" skinned, nor do "brown" skinned Hispanics equate to indigenous heritage. Anyone who has been to Spain knows this for a fact, and anyone familiar with indigenous peoples know that they do not look like Hispanic people, their bone structure, hair, even facial hair is markedly different.

Jim Wallis doesn't seem to have a problem with the corruption, the cruelty or lack of justice in Latin America, in fact he seeks to rationalize the imposition of it here. He is in bed with the historic enemies of even the minimum wage, of wage standards, workplace protection, food, drug and product safety provisions and environmental protections, the US Chamber of Commerce and Business Roundtable. Wallis' much loved MDG's via the UN is being used to fund the rape and slaughter of Africans, Pakistanis and Indians, especially those who are Christian. African Anglican priests and bishops have exposed what is happening in many African nations, the abuses of corrupt governments who use these funds to line their pockets, to buy luxuries, as well as being used to purchase weapons used to maim, and kill Africans, including in the Sudan. Not a peep out of Wallis and his kind on the subject, but perhaps his meaning for "emerging church" means something different than what he'd purport it to mean? I'll wager that the god Wallis worships, is a golden idol.

Wallis refuses to address the fact that his advocacy for illegal aliens, has displaced American citizen workers, many of whom are black Americans. He's also one of those whose attacks against any discussion of the harm brought about by not enforcing our immigration laws, has created an un-Christian attitude among illegal aliens, that they have a right to rob, rape, and kill American citizens and get away with it. This same attitude is on display by the various illegal alien amnesty groups, who refuse to address the criminal acts, the rapes and murders of citizens by illegals. The family of a wonderful young man in Los Angeles, who was murdered by an illegal alien gang banger, the Shaws, have been threatened, coerced, and abused by the illegal alien lobby, and corrupt democrats, merely for trying to get legislation on the ballot to amend Special Order 40 in such a way that any person who is arrested have their immigration status checked. The illegal alien gang banger who shot young Jamiel to death, had just been released from prison (he had a long and extensive record of violent crime), and when he saw Jamiel, he decided to kill him, the gang he belongs to, have all it's members tattoo the letters, "KB" on the backs of their necks, because to them, killing blacks is an activity they like to do. Jamiel, a young man with a stellar grade point average, who was being scouted by universities because he was a football star, was a good son, and wonderful big brother was shot to death a few doors down from his home. His mother was serving in Iraq. While gathering signatures on a petition in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles, the corrupt and cowardly mayor of the city, sent SWAT teams and helicopters to harass the family, demanding they provide documentation to prove their legal right to be in the country.. something they refuse to do to illegal aliens arrested for crimes. This was done to intimidate and punish them for daring to petition their government to seek redress. The mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaragosa, is himself the son of illegal aliens, and a former gang member, as well as a member of the Hispanic hate group, MeCHA. Tens of thousands of innocent black Americans in California alone have been murdered by Wallis' illegal aliens, and millions have been displaced from the jobs they held in that state alone. Young and old, black Americans have been forced out of jobs, and denied new ones, but by illegal aliens and their corrupt employers. White Americans have been subjected to the same displacement and discrimination.

The way Wallis speaks, it's as if all white Americans are wealthy and privileged. The facts are, that there are plenty of poor and suffering white Americans, just as there plenty of poor black and brown American citizens. The policies Wallis demands be implemented will only continue to increase the poverty of US citizens, as they already have created the tent cities that exist all across our nation, tent cities that Wallis, and those like him refuse to recognize. Wallis is regressive, he is the sort of man who spoke out of both sides of his face in centuries past. He's a sham clergyman, just like those who documented genocide and slavery throughout the world. He doesn't believe in God, or in Christ's teachings, they are a disguise he uses to collect dupes to exploit.

by: Jesusistheway

04-22-2010 @ 10:20pm

As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them.

by: outragex

04-23-2010 @ 7:41pm

We are called to "walk humbly with our God." We are also taught that God loves everyone of us us equally. That means to me that I can't dismiss the good-faith criticisms on US Christianity without giving them my fairest hearing. These criticisms are a blessing because they help me improve my walk with God. I may not agree with everything McLaren or others write, but I am thankful for their ideas that help me consider my walk and faith. This wealthy, white male appreciates their perspectives-thanks and blessings to all.

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 7:35pm

Are emergent churches, or the emergent church or "Emergent" (as referenced above) the same as Brian's "new Christianity?"

I'm still trying to get my hands around what an emergent church is, but when I asked before on this blog someone told me it was simply a form of church that is authentic to its time, place and congregants. Thus, an emergent church is not a different theology or "denomination" of Christianity, but might simply be a different form of "doing church." One emergent church in place X might be completely different than an emergent church in place Y.

Bryan makes it sound like the emergent church has a different theology/orthodoxy by inserting his book in this conversation. Does it?

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 6:40pm

That may be true...but "Fastest growing" is not always "Best growing".
Compare the oak and the mushroom. The African church has been described as a
thousand miles wide and one inch deep. And that is a big problem. Most
people drop out because the goodies promised are late in coming.
Discipleship is lacking, even among leaders. Materialism is the gospel...and
poverty is evidence of lack of faith...Most pastors flock to the West, give
wonderful stories of their churches, and out of...perhaps guilt, genuine
concern, or ignorance, they get willing financial support...and fill their
bank accounts. Of course they can then show how "blessed" they are when they
drive around with bodyguards, and live among the rich...

I am an African, I live in Africa, and I travel a lot in Africa.

by: dlowen

04-23-2010 @ 1:53pm

I'm right there with you on this one. As a privileged white male living in the South, people have a tendency to assume that I am part of the group that wants to maintain the status quo of white power. I did work hard to get my education and work long hours to earn a good living, but my road has been easy compared to many who have less. White folks aren't any more corrupt than any other race, just culturally raised to think they are ethnically superior, and that is as much a curse to our children as the reverse.

I wish every American could have the opportunity that I had to live for a few years in another country that doesn't speak English, where I was the ethnic minority (somewhere below 0.01%.) Of course, it was not the same as the reversed role in this country because most of the nationals automatically looked up to me because I was an American, favored by God. Perhaps one day we will all understand that God is "particularly fond" of each of His/Her children. (Read The Shack for a deeper understanding of the meaning of the last sentence.)

Peace y'all.

by: NC77

04-23-2010 @ 1:29pm

Unless it is born of the Holy Spirit it is not of God. Once again, this apparent confusion within emergent movement was addressed by Paul. 1 Corinthians, Chapters 1 and 2. Who within the emergent fad claims the leading of the Holy Spirit and God's annointing on their lives to lead the church in the direction being sought? God will not lead his people in a direction that cannot be clearly articulated and understood without strife, and supported by the scriptures.

John 16:5-16.

by: MikeClawson

04-23-2010 @ 10:48pm

Sam - many different things are emerging in the church. Some are rethinking worship styles and evangelistic methods, others are rethinking forms and structures of church, and others are rethinking theological and justice issues. Thus you are right, emerging Christians are going to be very different depending on who you are looking at. Brian's "New Kind of Christianity" is one type of emergence, but he does not speak for everyone and there has never been any expectation among emergents that one has to agree with anything or everything said by anyone else in the conversation, not even influential authors like Brian.

Does that help clarify?

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 11:51pm

That actually does help a bit Mike. Thanks. I still have many questions, but for now it sounds like the other person I spoke to was giving too narrow a definition.

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 5:18pm

They came with a Bible and a gun...they asked us to close our eyes to pray. When we opened our eyes, they had taken all our land, and resources...

This in a crude nutshell is the feeling of many in Africa who associate Christianity with white people (male of female). And on this, many reject Christ and the Christian faith.

Can we find it in our hearts to discuss such things at the "table" or as we walk hand-in-hand on that journey? Can we at least remove Christ from such deeds in the past and say "No, Christ was not in that picture?"...just a thought.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:30am

Jesusis the way -- ".As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them."

You were being sarcastic, right?

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 5:47pm

Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian areas in the world.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 4:04am

This article made me chuckle because it reminded me of my serior year of high school. The school had been run by the "cool" kids for three years. My crowd was anything but cool, but all of sudden we were in charge and ran most of the events through graduation. There were a lot of smart, creative kids in our group We really didn't care what the "cool" kids did or thought. They became mostly irrelevant. I think that is in microcosm how the world works. When those in power become a little too arrogant, too lazy, too sure of thier position, someone else shows up to fill the vacancy that is left by the indifferrence of the powerful.
Since I do not fit the white-European-male mold, I have enjoyed occasionally upsetting their applecart People of all cultures are examining Christianity and the words of the Bible and they do not care if their beliefs, practices and interpretations may differ from the traditional

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:40am

Thank you for opening our eyes.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:37am

squeaky --"I'm sorry that was your response."

I applaud your response.

by: outragex

04-23-2010 @ 7:41pm

We are called to "walk humbly with our God." We are also taught that God loves everyone of us us equally. That means to me that I can't dismiss the good-faith criticisms on US Christianity without giving them my fairest hearing. These criticisms are a blessing because they help me improve my walk with God. I may not agree with everything McLaren or others write, but I am thankful for their ideas that help me consider my walk and faith. This wealthy, white male appreciates their perspectives-thanks and blessings to all.

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 7:35pm

Are emergent churches, or the emergent church or "Emergent" (as referenced above) the same as Brian's "new Christianity?"

I'm still trying to get my hands around what an emergent church is, but when I asked before on this blog someone told me it was simply a form of church that is authentic to its time, place and congregants. Thus, an emergent church is not a different theology or "denomination" of Christianity, but might simply be a different form of "doing church." One emergent church in place X might be completely different than an emergent church in place Y.

Bryan makes it sound like the emergent church has a different theology/orthodoxy by inserting his book in this conversation. Does it?

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 6:40pm

That may be true...but "Fastest growing" is not always "Best growing".
Compare the oak and the mushroom. The African church has been described as a
thousand miles wide and one inch deep. And that is a big problem. Most
people drop out because the goodies promised are late in coming.
Discipleship is lacking, even among leaders. Materialism is the gospel...and
poverty is evidence of lack of faith...Most pastors flock to the West, give
wonderful stories of their churches, and out of...perhaps guilt, genuine
concern, or ignorance, they get willing financial support...and fill their
bank accounts. Of course they can then show how "blessed" they are when they
drive around with bodyguards, and live among the rich...

I am an African, I live in Africa, and I travel a lot in Africa.

by: squeaky

04-24-2010 @ 7:15am

Thx, Sct

by: soskaai

04-24-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you, too.
I pray that God will will re-awaken us from the "bless-me" stupor to
"how-can-we-be-blessed-together" mentality. Then we can reach out and touch,
and in turn be touched by others...Oh Lord, God, do it in my lifetime!

by: Jesusistheway

04-24-2010 @ 4:35pm

I have many Ethiopian friends, and I can tell you the evangelical church there is alive and well. My daughter is from Ethiopia, and my wife and I were blessed to meet the birth mother who makes the equivalent of 25 cents a day. She's also a woman of great faith. The Ethiopian friends I met in Illinois had children on the honor roll at school. When they were walking down the street and there were African Americans on the corner, the Ethiopian kids often had to walk on the other side of the street because they were being taunted, and worse. Obviously, they were being too white. The Ethiopian father did grunt work and barely made above minimum wage, even though he had a bad back. My family and I are attending an Anglican church here, which until recently was under the jurisdiction of the Anglican Church of Africa because it was more conservative theologically than the Episcopal church here. There is a Nigerian Anglican church in my city. From all indications the African Anglican church is not as you indicate, unless you consider them to conservative for your tastes.

by: MikeClawson

04-23-2010 @ 10:48pm

Sam - many different things are emerging in the church. Some are rethinking worship styles and evangelistic methods, others are rethinking forms and structures of church, and others are rethinking theological and justice issues. Thus you are right, emerging Christians are going to be very different depending on who you are looking at. Brian's "New Kind of Christianity" is one type of emergence, but he does not speak for everyone and there has never been any expectation among emergents that one has to agree with anything or everything said by anyone else in the conversation, not even influential authors like Brian.

Does that help clarify?

by: soskaai

06-27-2011 @ 12:30pm

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 20, Sospeter Gatobu sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Sospeter Gatobu's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/5mw...

Signing up is free and takes less than a minute.

by: soskaai

06-27-2011 @ 12:30pm

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 20, Sospeter Gatobu sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Sospeter Gatobu's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/u70...

Signing up is free and takes less than a minute.

by: soskaai

04-24-2010 @ 5:33pm

Sorry...that last statement about the African Anglican church...and my
tastes...I really think you are generalizing, both about my tastes and the
African Anglican church...

by: soskaai

04-24-2010 @ 5:28pm

Thank you very much for your mail. I am glad I am having a conversation
with a person I have never met, on a matter that we both feel strongly
about.

First, please do not get me wrong. I have very deep respect for the poor
believers in Africa. I come from there, I live with them. For all intents
and purposes, they are only poor materially, but very rich in faith. They
are also very hard working, and their material poverty can largely be
attributed to political and social systems, either locally or globally.
I was involved with Bible Translation work in Africa, for many years. Later
I was involved in development work that covered Africa. I had projects in
Ethiopia, and made several visits to the country. They are great people.

Secondly, I actually think "conservative" is great! I think the new "hip
hop" type has missed the point...
As I have mentioned, I had the privilege of being involved in Bible work. I
had to work with all denominations. I learned to appreciate the diversity in
God's Church. However, I also know that Christ is not, and I am sure, was
not interested in those boundaries that so divide us. I believe Christ would
like us to be one...and as the old song goes, so we can "guard each one's
dignity and save each one's pride"..as "we work with each other", as "we
work side by side".

Am glad you are doing your part, and may God bless you for changing that
girl's life...

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: RubyLou

04-22-2010 @ 4:25pm

Amen! It is an exciting time to be a part of Emergent---and to be a Christian. Thank you for keeping the conversation going.

by: RubyLou

04-22-2010 @ 4:25pm

Amen! It is an exciting time to be a part of Emergent---and to be a Christian. Thank you for keeping the conversation going.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-22-2010 @ 7:28pm

I think I like the image of journey better than the table.

The table makes for strained conversation; ie straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I'll journey towards Jesus and gladly converse/relate to any bro's and sis's goin that way.

Keep your eyes on the prize.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-22-2010 @ 7:28pm

I think I like the image of journey better than the table.

The table makes for strained conversation; ie straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I'll journey towards Jesus and gladly converse/relate to any bro's and sis's goin that way.

Keep your eyes on the prize.

by: mjanem

04-22-2010 @ 8:53pm

Thank you for this post. It is refreshing in its humility. And I look forward to the conversation to unfold.

by: mjanem

04-22-2010 @ 8:53pm

Thank you for this post. It is refreshing in its humility. And I look forward to the conversation to unfold.

by: Jesusistheway

04-22-2010 @ 10:20pm

As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them.

by: Jesusistheway

04-22-2010 @ 10:20pm

As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them.

by: jperry

04-22-2010 @ 11:26pm

Those espousing this anti-Christian, hateful ideology are not interested in true justice, or in Christ's teachings. Rather, they are seeking to exploit Christianity, to promote an agenda that is about hatred and intolerance, it's about imposing slavery, nothing more.

Christ spoke out against greed, corruption, hypocrisy and hatred. Nor did Christ advocate for discrimination based on skin color, he didn't play to externals, but rather to what was in our hearts and minds, our very souls. I don't read that message here. What I do read is an intolerant rant, that is about pitting one group against another in order to oppress the rights of others. It's a call to provide an entitlement to hatred and corruption of the innocent. It was in fact, white Christians, many of them white male Christians who fought to end slavery, which infuriated the Arabs and Africans who fattened their purses with human trafficking. It was also white Christians, who created the concept of human and civil rights. All Wallis' seems to be in aid of, is perverting and corrupting the concepts and ending them.

Jim Wallis and his fellow travelers do not care about lifting the poor out of poverty, or giving them dignity through Christ's teachings.. they are little more than something he seeks to use.

Wallis and his fellow travelers don't address the fact that Greek and Roman societies weren't the only ones oppressing and abusing others, weren't the only colonial empires. Such things were a global phenomenon. Africa had sold it's people as slaves, long before the first English, Dutch or American bought or sold a slave. Africa has sold it's people as long as there has been an Africa, and they sold their people as slaves to Arabs for 10, 000 years. The trans-Atlantic slave trade was created by the Spanish, after they had committed genocide against the indigenous peoples of what we now call Latin America. They brought more than 8,000,000 African slaves to those lands, and worked virtually all of them to death. Those Spanish who committed genocide and enslaved, and slaughtered greedily were not all "white" skinned, nor do "brown" skinned Hispanics equate to indigenous heritage. Anyone who has been to Spain knows this for a fact, and anyone familiar with indigenous peoples know that they do not look like Hispanic people, their bone structure, hair, even facial hair is markedly different.

Jim Wallis doesn't seem to have a problem with the corruption, the cruelty or lack of justice in Latin America, in fact he seeks to rationalize the imposition of it here. He is in bed with the historic enemies of even the minimum wage, of wage standards, workplace protection, food, drug and product safety provisions and environmental protections, the US Chamber of Commerce and Business Roundtable. Wallis' much loved MDG's via the UN is being used to fund the rape and slaughter of Africans, Pakistanis and Indians, especially those who are Christian. African Anglican priests and bishops have exposed what is happening in many African nations, the abuses of corrupt governments who use these funds to line their pockets, to buy luxuries, as well as being used to purchase weapons used to maim, and kill Africans, including in the Sudan. Not a peep out of Wallis and his kind on the subject, but perhaps his meaning for "emerging church" means something different than what he'd purport it to mean? I'll wager that the god Wallis worships, is a golden idol.

Wallis refuses to address the fact that his advocacy for illegal aliens, has displaced American citizen workers, many of whom are black Americans. He's also one of those whose attacks against any discussion of the harm brought about by not enforcing our immigration laws, has created an un-Christian attitude among illegal aliens, that they have a right to rob, rape, and kill American citizens and get away with it. This same attitude is on display by the various illegal alien amnesty groups, who refuse to address the criminal acts, the rapes and murders of citizens by illegals. The family of a wonderful young man in Los Angeles, who was murdered by an illegal alien gang banger, the Shaws, have been threatened, coerced, and abused by the illegal alien lobby, and corrupt democrats, merely for trying to get legislation on the ballot to amend Special Order 40 in such a way that any person who is arrested have their immigration status checked. The illegal alien gang banger who shot young Jamiel to death, had just been released from prison (he had a long and extensive record of violent crime), and when he saw Jamiel, he decided to kill him, the gang he belongs to, have all it's members tattoo the letters, "KB" on the backs of their necks, because to them, killing blacks is an activity they like to do. Jamiel, a young man with a stellar grade point average, who was being scouted by universities because he was a football star, was a good son, and wonderful big brother was shot to death a few doors down from his home. His mother was serving in Iraq. While gathering signatures on a petition in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles, the corrupt and cowardly mayor of the city, sent SWAT teams and helicopters to harass the family, demanding they provide documentation to prove their legal right to be in the country.. something they refuse to do to illegal aliens arrested for crimes. This was done to intimidate and punish them for daring to petition their government to seek redress. The mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaragosa, is himself the son of illegal aliens, and a former gang member, as well as a member of the Hispanic hate group, MeCHA. Tens of thousands of innocent black Americans in California alone have been murdered by Wallis' illegal aliens, and millions have been displaced from the jobs they held in that state alone. Young and old, black Americans have been forced out of jobs, and denied new ones, but by illegal aliens and their corrupt employers. White Americans have been subjected to the same displacement and discrimination.

The way Wallis speaks, it's as if all white Americans are wealthy and privileged. The facts are, that there are plenty of poor and suffering white Americans, just as there plenty of poor black and brown American citizens. The policies Wallis demands be implemented will only continue to increase the poverty of US citizens, as they already have created the tent cities that exist all across our nation, tent cities that Wallis, and those like him refuse to recognize. Wallis is regressive, he is the sort of man who spoke out of both sides of his face in centuries past. He's a sham clergyman, just like those who documented genocide and slavery throughout the world. He doesn't believe in God, or in Christ's teachings, they are a disguise he uses to collect dupes to exploit.

by: jperry

04-22-2010 @ 11:26pm

Those espousing this anti-Christian, hateful ideology are not interested in true justice, or in Christ's teachings. Rather, they are seeking to exploit Christianity, to promote an agenda that is about hatred and intolerance, it's about imposing slavery, nothing more.

Christ spoke out against greed, corruption, hypocrisy and hatred. Nor did Christ advocate for discrimination based on skin color, he didn't play to externals, but rather to what was in our hearts and minds, our very souls. I don't read that message here. What I do read is an intolerant rant, that is about pitting one group against another in order to oppress the rights of others. It's a call to provide an entitlement to hatred and corruption of the innocent. It was in fact, white Christians, many of them white male Christians who fought to end slavery, which infuriated the Arabs and Africans who fattened their purses with human trafficking. It was also white Christians, who created the concept of human and civil rights. All Wallis' seems to be in aid of, is perverting and corrupting the concepts and ending them.

Jim Wallis and his fellow travelers do not care about lifting the poor out of poverty, or giving them dignity through Christ's teachings.. they are little more than something he seeks to use.

Wallis and his fellow travelers don't address the fact that Greek and Roman societies weren't the only ones oppressing and abusing others, weren't the only colonial empires. Such things were a global phenomenon. Africa had sold it's people as slaves, long before the first English, Dutch or American bought or sold a slave. Africa has sold it's people as long as there has been an Africa, and they sold their people as slaves to Arabs for 10, 000 years. The trans-Atlantic slave trade was created by the Spanish, after they had committed genocide against the indigenous peoples of what we now call Latin America. They brought more than 8,000,000 African slaves to those lands, and worked virtually all of them to death. Those Spanish who committed genocide and enslaved, and slaughtered greedily were not all "white" skinned, nor do "brown" skinned Hispanics equate to indigenous heritage. Anyone who has been to Spain knows this for a fact, and anyone familiar with indigenous peoples know that they do not look like Hispanic people, their bone structure, hair, even facial hair is markedly different.

Jim Wallis doesn't seem to have a problem with the corruption, the cruelty or lack of justice in Latin America, in fact he seeks to rationalize the imposition of it here. He is in bed with the historic enemies of even the minimum wage, of wage standards, workplace protection, food, drug and product safety provisions and environmental protections, the US Chamber of Commerce and Business Roundtable. Wallis' much loved MDG's via the UN is being used to fund the rape and slaughter of Africans, Pakistanis and Indians, especially those who are Christian. African Anglican priests and bishops have exposed what is happening in many African nations, the abuses of corrupt governments who use these funds to line their pockets, to buy luxuries, as well as being used to purchase weapons used to maim, and kill Africans, including in the Sudan. Not a peep out of Wallis and his kind on the subject, but perhaps his meaning for "emerging church" means something different than what he'd purport it to mean? I'll wager that the god Wallis worships, is a golden idol.

Wallis refuses to address the fact that his advocacy for illegal aliens, has displaced American citizen workers, many of whom are black Americans. He's also one of those whose attacks against any discussion of the harm brought about by not enforcing our immigration laws, has created an un-Christian attitude among illegal aliens, that they have a right to rob, rape, and kill American citizens and get away with it. This same attitude is on display by the various illegal alien amnesty groups, who refuse to address the criminal acts, the rapes and murders of citizens by illegals. The family of a wonderful young man in Los Angeles, who was murdered by an illegal alien gang banger, the Shaws, have been threatened, coerced, and abused by the illegal alien lobby, and corrupt democrats, merely for trying to get legislation on the ballot to amend Special Order 40 in such a way that any person who is arrested have their immigration status checked. The illegal alien gang banger who shot young Jamiel to death, had just been released from prison (he had a long and extensive record of violent crime), and when he saw Jamiel, he decided to kill him, the gang he belongs to, have all it's members tattoo the letters, "KB" on the backs of their necks, because to them, killing blacks is an activity they like to do. Jamiel, a young man with a stellar grade point average, who was being scouted by universities because he was a football star, was a good son, and wonderful big brother was shot to death a few doors down from his home. His mother was serving in Iraq. While gathering signatures on a petition in MacArthur Park in Los Angeles, the corrupt and cowardly mayor of the city, sent SWAT teams and helicopters to harass the family, demanding they provide documentation to prove their legal right to be in the country.. something they refuse to do to illegal aliens arrested for crimes. This was done to intimidate and punish them for daring to petition their government to seek redress. The mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaragosa, is himself the son of illegal aliens, and a former gang member, as well as a member of the Hispanic hate group, MeCHA. Tens of thousands of innocent black Americans in California alone have been murdered by Wallis' illegal aliens, and millions have been displaced from the jobs they held in that state alone. Young and old, black Americans have been forced out of jobs, and denied new ones, but by illegal aliens and their corrupt employers. White Americans have been subjected to the same displacement and discrimination.

The way Wallis speaks, it's as if all white Americans are wealthy and privileged. The facts are, that there are plenty of poor and suffering white Americans, just as there plenty of poor black and brown American citizens. The policies Wallis demands be implemented will only continue to increase the poverty of US citizens, as they already have created the tent cities that exist all across our nation, tent cities that Wallis, and those like him refuse to recognize. Wallis is regressive, he is the sort of man who spoke out of both sides of his face in centuries past. He's a sham clergyman, just like those who documented genocide and slavery throughout the world. He doesn't believe in God, or in Christ's teachings, they are a disguise he uses to collect dupes to exploit.

by: mjanem

04-23-2010 @ 4:13am

Mourning the legacy of our ancestors is at least a step toward reconciliation and toward a fuller understanding of the cross.

Jesus is indeed The Way: "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." - Ephesians 2:14-18.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

by: mjanem

04-23-2010 @ 4:13am

Mourning the legacy of our ancestors is at least a step toward reconciliation and toward a fuller understanding of the cross.

Jesus is indeed The Way: "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." - Ephesians 2:14-18.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 6:17am

If only your comments were serious and not sarcastic, for indeed this nation is in deep need of spiritual healing for the sins of her past. Or have you not heard of generational sin?

I've been concerned lately that many who are offended by suggestions like Brian's seem to lack empathy. Recent comments made by one acquaintance, that Native Americans should just "get over it", typify this observation. How might empathy inform our understanding of non-white people groups and their experiences? How might empathy inform our viewpoint of history and where we are today in our relations with each other? How might empathy cause us to respond more with compassion than with defensiveness? How might empathy help us to tear down walls of racism and the hurts from the very serious offenses of the past?

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 6:17am

If only your comments were serious and not sarcastic, for indeed this nation is in deep need of spiritual healing for the sins of her past. Or have you not heard of generational sin?

I've been concerned lately that many who are offended by suggestions like Brian's seem to lack empathy. Recent comments made by one acquaintance, that Native Americans should just "get over it", typify this observation. How might empathy inform our understanding of non-white people groups and their experiences? How might empathy inform our viewpoint of history and where we are today in our relations with each other? How might empathy cause us to respond more with compassion than with defensiveness? How might empathy help us to tear down walls of racism and the hurts from the very serious offenses of the past?

by: MouseHouse

04-23-2010 @ 8:57am

I guess my question (and I'm not being snide here, just an observation from someone from Asia) is how do we square the diversity of non-white voices with how much classic Billy Graham style evangelicalism and neo Pentecostalism (which many would see as antithetical to the kind of diversity that Brian seems to be calling for) deeply resonates with the non-white world, especially in Asia, far more than progressive Christianity? I realise this post is speaking in the context of US Christianity.. but just a thought.

by: MouseHouse

04-23-2010 @ 8:57am

I guess my question (and I'm not being snide here, just an observation from someone from Asia) is how do we square the diversity of non-white voices with how much classic Billy Graham style evangelicalism and neo Pentecostalism (which many would see as antithetical to the kind of diversity that Brian seems to be calling for) deeply resonates with the non-white world, especially in Asia, far more than progressive Christianity? I realise this post is speaking in the context of US Christianity.. but just a thought.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 12:24pm

squeaky,
whatever I say -- you have no idea what I do in my life for others -- will not be good enough for you. I'm sorry you have to disagree with anyone who isn't it line with a certain paradigm. I guess discussion is more important than what we put into practice in our daily lives. I seek to reconcile each day on my job. But I'm not trying to please you, or Brian Mclaren or Jim Wallis. There is only One who I need to respond and be accountable to.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 12:24pm

squeaky,
whatever I say -- you have no idea what I do in my life for others -- will not be good enough for you. I'm sorry you have to disagree with anyone who isn't it line with a certain paradigm. I guess discussion is more important than what we put into practice in our daily lives. I seek to reconcile each day on my job. But I'm not trying to please you, or Brian Mclaren or Jim Wallis. There is only One who I need to respond and be accountable to.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 1:03pm

I'm sorry that was your response. I guess I thought my questions were worth thinking about and discussion. This is the second time on this blog that I have invoked the word empathy. The first time the person completely ignored it--twice. This time you respond defensively. I would have liked to know your thoughts on how empathy could change things in this nation as a whole, but you preferred to take it personally. Sorry to have engaged with you. This time I mean it when I say I will leave you alone. Blessings on you and all you do for others.

by: squeaky

04-23-2010 @ 1:03pm

I'm sorry that was your response. I guess I thought my questions were worth thinking about and discussion. This is the second time on this blog that I have invoked the word empathy. The first time the person completely ignored it--twice. This time you respond defensively. I would have liked to know your thoughts on how empathy could change things in this nation as a whole, but you preferred to take it personally. Sorry to have engaged with you. This time I mean it when I say I will leave you alone. Blessings on you and all you do for others.

by: NC77

04-23-2010 @ 1:29pm

Unless it is born of the Holy Spirit it is not of God. Once again, this apparent confusion within emergent movement was addressed by Paul. 1 Corinthians, Chapters 1 and 2. Who within the emergent fad claims the leading of the Holy Spirit and God's annointing on their lives to lead the church in the direction being sought? God will not lead his people in a direction that cannot be clearly articulated and understood without strife, and supported by the scriptures.

John 16:5-16.

by: NC77

04-23-2010 @ 1:29pm

Unless it is born of the Holy Spirit it is not of God. Once again, this apparent confusion within emergent movement was addressed by Paul. 1 Corinthians, Chapters 1 and 2. Who within the emergent fad claims the leading of the Holy Spirit and God's annointing on their lives to lead the church in the direction being sought? God will not lead his people in a direction that cannot be clearly articulated and understood without strife, and supported by the scriptures.

John 16:5-16.

by: dlowen

04-23-2010 @ 1:53pm

I'm right there with you on this one. As a privileged white male living in the South, people have a tendency to assume that I am part of the group that wants to maintain the status quo of white power. I did work hard to get my education and work long hours to earn a good living, but my road has been easy compared to many who have less. White folks aren't any more corrupt than any other race, just culturally raised to think they are ethnically superior, and that is as much a curse to our children as the reverse.

I wish every American could have the opportunity that I had to live for a few years in another country that doesn't speak English, where I was the ethnic minority (somewhere below 0.01%.) Of course, it was not the same as the reversed role in this country because most of the nationals automatically looked up to me because I was an American, favored by God. Perhaps one day we will all understand that God is "particularly fond" of each of His/Her children. (Read The Shack for a deeper understanding of the meaning of the last sentence.)

Peace y'all.

by: dlowen

04-23-2010 @ 1:53pm

I'm right there with you on this one. As a privileged white male living in the South, people have a tendency to assume that I am part of the group that wants to maintain the status quo of white power. I did work hard to get my education and work long hours to earn a good living, but my road has been easy compared to many who have less. White folks aren't any more corrupt than any other race, just culturally raised to think they are ethnically superior, and that is as much a curse to our children as the reverse.

I wish every American could have the opportunity that I had to live for a few years in another country that doesn't speak English, where I was the ethnic minority (somewhere below 0.01%.) Of course, it was not the same as the reversed role in this country because most of the nationals automatically looked up to me because I was an American, favored by God. Perhaps one day we will all understand that God is "particularly fond" of each of His/Her children. (Read The Shack for a deeper understanding of the meaning of the last sentence.)

Peace y'all.

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 5:18pm

They came with a Bible and a gun...they asked us to close our eyes to pray. When we opened our eyes, they had taken all our land, and resources...

This in a crude nutshell is the feeling of many in Africa who associate Christianity with white people (male of female). And on this, many reject Christ and the Christian faith.

Can we find it in our hearts to discuss such things at the "table" or as we walk hand-in-hand on that journey? Can we at least remove Christ from such deeds in the past and say "No, Christ was not in that picture?"...just a thought.

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 5:18pm

They came with a Bible and a gun...they asked us to close our eyes to pray. When we opened our eyes, they had taken all our land, and resources...

This in a crude nutshell is the feeling of many in Africa who associate Christianity with white people (male of female). And on this, many reject Christ and the Christian faith.

Can we find it in our hearts to discuss such things at the "table" or as we walk hand-in-hand on that journey? Can we at least remove Christ from such deeds in the past and say "No, Christ was not in that picture?"...just a thought.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 5:47pm

Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian areas in the world.

by: Jesusistheway

04-23-2010 @ 5:47pm

Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian areas in the world.

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 6:40pm

That may be true...but "Fastest growing" is not always "Best growing".
Compare the oak and the mushroom. The African church has been described as a
thousand miles wide and one inch deep. And that is a big problem. Most
people drop out because the goodies promised are late in coming.
Discipleship is lacking, even among leaders. Materialism is the gospel...and
poverty is evidence of lack of faith...Most pastors flock to the West, give
wonderful stories of their churches, and out of...perhaps guilt, genuine
concern, or ignorance, they get willing financial support...and fill their
bank accounts. Of course they can then show how "blessed" they are when they
drive around with bodyguards, and live among the rich...

I am an African, I live in Africa, and I travel a lot in Africa.

by: soskaai

04-23-2010 @ 6:40pm

That may be true...but "Fastest growing" is not always "Best growing".
Compare the oak and the mushroom. The African church has been described as a
thousand miles wide and one inch deep. And that is a big problem. Most
people drop out because the goodies promised are late in coming.
Discipleship is lacking, even among leaders. Materialism is the gospel...and
poverty is evidence of lack of faith...Most pastors flock to the West, give
wonderful stories of their churches, and out of...perhaps guilt, genuine
concern, or ignorance, they get willing financial support...and fill their
bank accounts. Of course they can then show how "blessed" they are when they
drive around with bodyguards, and live among the rich...

I am an African, I live in Africa, and I travel a lot in Africa.

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 7:35pm

Are emergent churches, or the emergent church or "Emergent" (as referenced above) the same as Brian's "new Christianity?"

I'm still trying to get my hands around what an emergent church is, but when I asked before on this blog someone told me it was simply a form of church that is authentic to its time, place and congregants. Thus, an emergent church is not a different theology or "denomination" of Christianity, but might simply be a different form of "doing church." One emergent church in place X might be completely different than an emergent church in place Y.

Bryan makes it sound like the emergent church has a different theology/orthodoxy by inserting his book in this conversation. Does it?

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 7:35pm

Are emergent churches, or the emergent church or "Emergent" (as referenced above) the same as Brian's "new Christianity?"

I'm still trying to get my hands around what an emergent church is, but when I asked before on this blog someone told me it was simply a form of church that is authentic to its time, place and congregants. Thus, an emergent church is not a different theology or "denomination" of Christianity, but might simply be a different form of "doing church." One emergent church in place X might be completely different than an emergent church in place Y.

Bryan makes it sound like the emergent church has a different theology/orthodoxy by inserting his book in this conversation. Does it?

by: outragex

04-23-2010 @ 7:41pm

We are called to "walk humbly with our God." We are also taught that God loves everyone of us us equally. That means to me that I can't dismiss the good-faith criticisms on US Christianity without giving them my fairest hearing. These criticisms are a blessing because they help me improve my walk with God. I may not agree with everything McLaren or others write, but I am thankful for their ideas that help me consider my walk and faith. This wealthy, white male appreciates their perspectives-thanks and blessings to all.

by: outragex

04-23-2010 @ 7:41pm

We are called to "walk humbly with our God." We are also taught that God loves everyone of us us equally. That means to me that I can't dismiss the good-faith criticisms on US Christianity without giving them my fairest hearing. These criticisms are a blessing because they help me improve my walk with God. I may not agree with everything McLaren or others write, but I am thankful for their ideas that help me consider my walk and faith. This wealthy, white male appreciates their perspectives-thanks and blessings to all.

by: MikeClawson

04-23-2010 @ 10:48pm

Sam - many different things are emerging in the church. Some are rethinking worship styles and evangelistic methods, others are rethinking forms and structures of church, and others are rethinking theological and justice issues. Thus you are right, emerging Christians are going to be very different depending on who you are looking at. Brian's "New Kind of Christianity" is one type of emergence, but he does not speak for everyone and there has never been any expectation among emergents that one has to agree with anything or everything said by anyone else in the conversation, not even influential authors like Brian.

Does that help clarify?

by: MikeClawson

04-23-2010 @ 10:48pm

Sam - many different things are emerging in the church. Some are rethinking worship styles and evangelistic methods, others are rethinking forms and structures of church, and others are rethinking theological and justice issues. Thus you are right, emerging Christians are going to be very different depending on who you are looking at. Brian's "New Kind of Christianity" is one type of emergence, but he does not speak for everyone and there has never been any expectation among emergents that one has to agree with anything or everything said by anyone else in the conversation, not even influential authors like Brian.

Does that help clarify?

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 11:51pm

That actually does help a bit Mike. Thanks. I still have many questions, but for now it sounds like the other person I spoke to was giving too narrow a definition.

by: SamHamilton

04-23-2010 @ 11:51pm

That actually does help a bit Mike. Thanks. I still have many questions, but for now it sounds like the other person I spoke to was giving too narrow a definition.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:30am

Jesusis the way -- ".As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them."

You were being sarcastic, right?

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:30am

Jesusis the way -- ".As a privileged White male, I call on my brethren in joining me by putting on a sack cloth and ashes and go into mourning for all our indiscretions, past, present and future. We also need to renounce everything but the post-modern paradigm of looking at Scripture. And we should do this because we fundamentally lack the tolerance that the post-modern, emergent movement has for the groups that oppose them."

You were being sarcastic, right?

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:37am

squeaky --"I'm sorry that was your response."

I applaud your response.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:37am

squeaky --"I'm sorry that was your response."

I applaud your response.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:40am

Thank you for opening our eyes.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 3:40am

Thank you for opening our eyes.

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 4:04am

This article made me chuckle because it reminded me of my serior year of high school. The school had been run by the "cool" kids for three years. My crowd was anything but cool, but all of sudden we were in charge and ran most of the events through graduation. There were a lot of smart, creative kids in our group We really didn't care what the "cool" kids did or thought. They became mostly irrelevant. I think that is in microcosm how the world works. When those in power become a little too arrogant, too lazy, too sure of thier position, someone else shows up to fill the vacancy that is left by the indifferrence of the powerful.
Since I do not fit the white-European-male mold, I have enjoyed occasionally upsetting their applecart People of all cultures are examining Christianity and the words of the Bible and they do not care if their beliefs, practices and interpretations may differ from the traditional

by: scat

04-24-2010 @ 4:04am

This article made me chuckle because it reminded me of my serior year of high school. The school had been run by the "cool" kids for three years. My crowd was anything but cool, but all of sudden we were in charge and ran most of the events through graduation. There were a lot of smart, creative kids in our group We really didn't care what the "cool" kids did or thought. They became mostly irrelevant. I think that is in microcosm how the world works. When those in power become a little too arrogant, too lazy, too sure of thier position, someone else shows up to fill the vacancy that is left by the indifferrence of the powerful.
Since I do not fit the white-European-male mold, I have enjoyed occasionally upsetting their applecart People of all cultures are examining Christianity and the words of the Bible and they do not care if their beliefs, practices and interpretations may differ from the traditional

by: squeaky

04-24-2010 @ 7:15am

Thx, Sct

by: squeaky

04-24-2010 @ 7:15am

Thx, Sct

by: soskaai

04-24-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you, too.
I pray that God will will re-awaken us from the "bless-me" stupor to
"how-can-we-be-blessed-together" mentality. Then we can reach out and touch,
and in turn be touched by others...Oh Lord, God, do it in my lifetime!

by: soskaai

04-24-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you, too.
I pray that God will will re-awaken us from the "bless-me" stupor to
"how-can-we-be-blessed-together" mentality. Then we can reach out and touch,
and in turn be touched by others...Oh Lord, God, do it in my lifetime!