Mother's Day Challenges

So your sister-in-law would make the SAME gut-wrenching, life-snuffing decision a SECOND time without making the changes she needs to keep it from happening AGAIN? See, this is where you lost me, but you really prove my point. I would like to give the woman ENOUGH CREDIT to believe she would do WHATEVER she needs to do to keep from having a SECOND unwanted pregnancy, while your position says she is too weak to do that so she must be allowed to kill as many fetuses as she needs to. I say NO! Stand up for yourself and what is the right thing to do! Tell me, how many abortions do you think one person should have before the empathy wears off - three, four, ten, unlimited? Because there are women like that you know, don't you? And if we are going to take empathy to the point of absurdity, what about the father? Wouldn't he deserve some empathy? Maybe he had a bad childhood where he didn't get enough love from his mother, so he needs to get it from women, or maybe his father beat him so that would give him license to beat his girlfriend?
Let me tell you about my own real life story. Several years ago I was counseling this guy that I had met thru my jail ministry who had a drinking problem. He had lost a son so I tried to empathize with him. He got a new job but his car wasn't running so I let him borrow mine - well he goes and gets a DUI in MY CAR! Now should I have continued to let him use it so maybe the next time he could kill someone? Of course not! See there is a point where it becomes enabling.
As a Christ-follower I want to model my philosophy ENTIRELY after Him, not just the part that says "Woman, where are your accusers?" but ALSO where He says "neither do I condemn you, NOW GO, LEAVE YOUR LIFE OF SIN". Maybe that sounds heartless to you, but to me the heartless position is to keep allowing for hundreds of thousands of innocent lives to be ended by enabling the situation.

Well, as a woman, such words lifted my spirit. So I for one appreciate that they were shared in light of the upcoming Mother's Day. And, I have to admit, in light of these words, I will enjoy Mother's Day far more than I usually do.

I find it perplexing when people complain about what God's Politics authors post on *their* blog. FCOL. Do you have a blog? If so, give me the address so I can visit it and complain about what you post on it. FCITB.

Some years ago a woman I had an eye for then and who has been involved in crisis pregnancy and anti-abortion work for about as long as I've known her had confided to me that she had had at least one abortion (she was not forthcoming to me about the details), and I told her that she would receive no condemnation from me -- because I didn't know the circumstances of her making that tragic course.

BTW, it's important to remember that, when Jesus said that to the woman caught in adultery, she had been caught in what likely was a sting operation -- they had set her up to put Him in a Catch-22. The trouble is that, in the rush to nail Him on something, they ended up breaking the law themselves (they also had brought a ceremonially unclean woman into the temple area), so they had to withdraw the accusation.

Yes, that and the man caught in the act was not brought before Jesus with the woman, and the law stated both should have been. Perhaps he was used to "set her up." Or perhaps it is just another example of men not being expected to take responsibility for their sexual impulses.

an enjoyable Mother's Day:

women safe from rape
women no longer losing children to war
women treated with respect by men
women safe from domestic violence
end of sex slavery
end of slave labor for chocolate in Africa
when daily bread, enough for the day, is available for all
where forgiving sins as we have been forgiven is practiced widely
where we no longer become demons by demonizing others
where the goodness of the Creator is celebrated by all
where we care for creation as belonging, not to us, but to Creator

What does an enjoyable Mother's Day mean to you?

Here's another issue to contend with -- for capital crimes there had to be at least two witnesses, plus the accuser had to participate in the execution; however, to watch people "doing the nasty" was also illegal under Mosaic Law. That's probably why it was a set-up.

Well, as a woman, such words lifted my spirit. So I for one appreciate that they were shared in light of the upcoming Mother's Day. And, I have to admit, in light of these words, I will enjoy Mother's Day far more than I usually do.

I find it perplexing when people complain about what God's Politics authors post on *their* blog. FCOL. Do you have a blog? If so, give me the address so I can visit it and complain about what you post on it. FCITB.

Do you not agree with the concerns duhsciple brought up? If not, then perhaps you might want to think about the connections those concerns have with your concern. Work for a world that is more safe for women, and I am pretty sure the issue of abortion will be affected in a positive way for those of us who are pro-life.

And by the way--why are you putting the issue only on the shoulders of women? Pray that FATHERS have the moral fortitude to teach their SONS to take have the moral fortitude to take responsibility for their actions. Your comment shows a pretty blatant lack of concern for the choices women face when they find themselves pregnant. And all too often, it is the WOMAN who has to deal with the ramifications of that poor decision and who most has to live with it and have their lives completely changed by it, regardless of the fact the man is equally culpable (and may even be moreso, given our culture where young women STILL feel they have to "put out" in order to prove their love to their boyfriends). Work to change that dynamic, and I would be willing to wager you would see positive changes in the issue, as well.

With all due respect, I think you missed what Squeaky was saying. One of the biggest mistakes the anti-abortion movement ever did for the sake of political power was to divorce itself from other "sanctity of life" issues, and the ideology assumes that if you oppose abortion you're truly "pro-life."

I just added to what was stated - I do believe it all starts with the fundamental Truth of respect for Life, which at its' core is what Mothers' Day is all about, isn't it?

No, not the way you put it. The verse you quoted doesn't even apply to this situation -- it's about what happens you reject God -- and specifically refers to idolatry, with abortion being tangential at most.

Anyway, it's simply not true that pro-choice groups believe that abortion isn't traumatic for the women involved; I know for a fact that the local office of Planned Parenthood runs support groups for women who have had abortions because it has sent information to the newspaper where I work about them. However, what needs to be understood is that a large part of the abortion issue has to do with the women's relationship with the fathers.

Well, you are on to something, at least in terms of asking the question of why else a woman would have a second abortion if the the first one was so traumatic. I would suggest, however, that you think more broadly. If a woman is willing to have an incredibly traumatic medical procedure done not once, but twice, what does that tell you about her outlook for life if she prefers that to an unwanted pregnancy? What does that tell you about the gravity of facing that, if she sees the trauma of a medical procedure as being preferred? It seems to me the first step that pro-life men should take is to try to understand that perspective. As I said before, the bulk of the responsibility for unwanted pregnancy falls on the shoulders of the woman. The person whose life is changed most profoundly for the man's indiscretion is the woman. Empathy. Strive for it, especially if you wish there to be headway made on this issue.

Just a quick story to illustrate this point. This weekend my Mom, Sister-in-Law, and I were talking about how the stigma of single motherhood isn't nearly what it was just a few years ago. Some would decry this, but it is this stigma that leads desperate young women to desperate choices. My Sister-in-Law told us that she was so afraid of her mother that if she and my brother had become pregnant before they were married (they are Christians and they stayed pure until marriage), she would have had an abortion. She's pro-life, but that's how desperate and how much fear would have been involved. And believe me, in her mother, there was much to fear.

So lest you think abortion is an easy choice, or keeping the child is an easy choice, you would do well to try a little empathy and understand what drives women to make that decision. It's not simply selfishness, as many pro-life advocates would claim. Neither is it lack of wisdom. It is fear. What is needed is empathy and understanding, and once that happens, steps can be made to offer the kind of support and love that might cast out the fear and desperation in a young woman's life.

"so women of this day seek strength through contraceptive control"

you are half way there. The question is, why? Why do women feel they need to have that kind of control? Before you answer that, put yourself in a woman's position and think about the place of women throughout history and women's standing in the world today, not just in the US, but all over the world.

"And I would say to women:"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom" Proverbs 4:7, or "WISE UP!"

This is a pat answer. Pat answers tell me you haven't taken the time to wade into the mess of unwanted pregnancies and tried to see things from the front lines of the women who have to deal with them. Take some time to do that. It is so easy to make such judgments when what you are judging is completely and entirely outside of your experience, and can never be part of your experience. Not truly. Not at the level it is for a woman. If you want to see progress on this issue, jettison the pat answers, dig deeper to empathize, and advocate for WOMEN, in addition to that unwanted child.

Indeed, it is such pat answers that led to my initial response to you. Duhsciple listed off several major issues women in this world face--issues that women have faced for thousands of years. And by diverting to the issue of abortion, you basically told me you don't see those issues as important or even primary. Your response was dismissive of the very real pain and fear women all over the world endure, much of which is at the hands of men. Start wrestling with those, and perhaps you will begin to understand the abortion issue on a much deeper level. And perhaps you will be able to become a far more effective pro-life advocate. Men need to start taking responsibility for abortion, and until you do, you will not see the progress you desire. The answer very likely lies with men more than it does with women.

"Not until there are people in the world who are not being discriminated against or persecuted" said my husband, who just came into my study. He then opened the door and added, "and we have a hell of a long way to go!"

Dear pcnot4me: You are welcome to enjoy the day! In whatever way you wish!! (Because, indeed, in America some of us have those freedoms.) But those of us who call ourselves "Christian" are challenged to love our neighbors as ourselves, even when that is difficult. This includes Mothers Day. I cherish my children and would give my life for them. But sadly, as I type, women are burying their children in the Sudan because of starvation and in Haiti because of disease. Some women in Chicago will bury their children at some point this month because they were innocent bystanders whose lives were claimed by one more bullet. For me to "just enjoy" Mothers Day without being mindful of my other sisters is idolatry.

That being said, beloved brother/sister in Christ, I hope that you DO enjoy the day. As the psalmist proclaims, "This is the day that the Lord has made! Let us rejoice and be glad in it!"

an enjoyable Mother's Day:

women safe from rape
women no longer losing children to war
women treated with respect by men
women safe from domestic violence
end of sex slavery
end of slave labor for chocolate in Africa
when daily bread, enough for the day, is available for all
where forgiving sins as we have been forgiven is practiced widely
where we no longer become demons by demonizing others
where the goodness of the Creator is celebrated by all
where we care for creation as belonging, not to us, but to Creator

What does an enjoyable Mother's Day mean to you?

You covered it brother...thanks.

Do you not agree with the concerns duhsciple brought up? If not, then perhaps you might want to think about the connections those concerns have with your concern. Work for a world that is more safe for women, and I am pretty sure the issue of abortion will be affected in a positive way for those of us who are pro-life.

And by the way--why are you putting the issue only on the shoulders of women? Pray that FATHERS have the moral fortitude to teach their SONS to take have the moral fortitude to take responsibility for their actions. Your comment shows a pretty blatant lack of concern for the choices women face when they find themselves pregnant. And all too often, it is the WOMAN who has to deal with the ramifications of that poor decision and who most has to live with it and have their lives completely changed by it, regardless of the fact the man is equally culpable (and may even be moreso, given our culture where young women STILL feel they have to "put out" in order to prove their love to their boyfriends). Work to change that dynamic, and I would be willing to wager you would see positive changes in the issue, as well.

So your sister-in-law would make the SAME gut-wrenching, life-snuffing decision a SECOND time without making the changes she needs to keep it from happening AGAIN? See, this is where you lost me, but you really prove my point. I would like to give the woman ENOUGH CREDIT to believe she would do WHATEVER she needs to do to keep from having a SECOND unwanted pregnancy, while your position says she is too weak to do that so she must be allowed to kill as many fetuses as she needs to. I say NO! Stand up for yourself and what is the right thing to do! Tell me, how many abortions do you think one person should have before the empathy wears off - three, four, ten, unlimited? Because there are women like that you know, don't you? And if we are going to take empathy to the point of absurdity, what about the father? Wouldn't he deserve some empathy? Maybe he had a bad childhood where he didn't get enough love from his mother, so he needs to get it from women, or maybe his father beat him so that would give him license to beat his girlfriend?
Let me tell you about my own real life story. Several years ago I was counseling this guy that I had met thru my jail ministry who had a drinking problem. He had lost a son so I tried to empathize with him. He got a new job but his car wasn't running so I let him borrow mine - well he goes and gets a DUI in MY CAR! Now should I have continued to let him use it so maybe the next time he could kill someone? Of course not! See there is a point where it becomes enabling.
As a Christ-follower I want to model my philosophy ENTIRELY after Him, not just the part that says "Woman, where are your accusers?" but ALSO where He says "neither do I condemn you, NOW GO, LEAVE YOUR LIFE OF SIN". Maybe that sounds heartless to you, but to me the heartless position is to keep allowing for hundreds of thousands of innocent lives to be ended by enabling the situation.

With all due respect, I think you missed what Squeaky was saying. One of the biggest mistakes the anti-abortion movement ever did for the sake of political power was to divorce itself from other "sanctity of life" issues, and the ideology assumes that if you oppose abortion you're truly "pro-life."

On the contrary, I agree with most of what was said, as I stated in the post. The article was titled "Mother's Day Challenges" and the original question I replied to was "What does an enjoyable Mother's Day mean to you?" I just added to what was stated - I do believe it all starts with the fundamental Truth of repect for Life, which at its' core is what Mothers' Day is all about, isn't it? Again, citing Romans 1, verse 25 says "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie" which is the point I'm trying to make. One of the biggest lies I see of the pro-Choice movement that I never see refuted is that abortion is always an extremely traumatic decision for the woman which is never entered into lightly. Yet the (liberal) Guttmacher Institute states on their website:
"Each year, two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; half have had at least one previous abortion." Clearly that truth contradicts the lie. And yet many women swallow it hook, line, and sinker. This pro-life, pro-Christian feminist would like to see women set free in all areas to be what God wants them to be, for "if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" John 8:36

Yes, that and the man caught in the act was not brought before Jesus with the woman, and the law stated both should have been. Perhaps he was used to "set her up." Or perhaps it is just another example of men not being expected to take responsibility for their sexual impulses.

Here's another issue to contend with -- for capital crimes there had to be at least two witnesses, plus the accuser had to participate in the execution; however, to watch people "doing the nasty" was also illegal under Mosaic Law. That's probably why it was a set-up.

Well, you are on to something, at least in terms of asking the question of why else a woman would have a second abortion if the the first one was so traumatic. I would suggest, however, that you think more broadly. If a woman is willing to have an incredibly traumatic medical procedure done not once, but twice, what does that tell you about her outlook for life if she prefers that to an unwanted pregnancy? What does that tell you about the gravity of facing that, if she sees the trauma of a medical procedure as being preferred? It seems to me the first step that pro-life men should take is to try to understand that perspective. As I said before, the bulk of the responsibility for unwanted pregnancy falls on the shoulders of the woman. The person whose life is changed most profoundly for the man's indiscretion is the woman. Empathy. Strive for it, especially if you wish there to be headway made on this issue.

Just a quick story to illustrate this point. This weekend my Mom, Sister-in-Law, and I were talking about how the stigma of single motherhood isn't nearly what it was just a few years ago. Some would decry this, but it is this stigma that leads desperate young women to desperate choices. My Sister-in-Law told us that she was so afraid of her mother that if she and my brother had become pregnant before they were married (they are Christians and they stayed pure until marriage), she would have had an abortion. She's pro-life, but that's how desperate and how much fear would have been involved. And believe me, in her mother, there was much to fear.

So lest you think abortion is an easy choice, or keeping the child is an easy choice, you would do well to try a little empathy and understand what drives women to make that decision. It's not simply selfishness, as many pro-life advocates would claim. Neither is it lack of wisdom. It is fear. What is needed is empathy and understanding, and once that happens, steps can be made to offer the kind of support and love that might cast out the fear and desperation in a young woman's life.

"so women of this day seek strength through contraceptive control"

you are half way there. The question is, why? Why do women feel they need to have that kind of control? Before you answer that, put yourself in a woman's position and think about the place of women throughout history and women's standing in the world today, not just in the US, but all over the world.

"And I would say to women:"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom" Proverbs 4:7, or "WISE UP!"

This is a pat answer. Pat answers tell me you haven't taken the time to wade into the mess of unwanted pregnancies and tried to see things from the front lines of the women who have to deal with them. Take some time to do that. It is so easy to make such judgments when what you are judging is completely and entirely outside of your experience, and can never be part of your experience. Not truly. Not at the level it is for a woman. If you want to see progress on this issue, jettison the pat answers, dig deeper to empathize, and advocate for WOMEN, in addition to that unwanted child.

Indeed, it is such pat answers that led to my initial response to you. Duhsciple listed off several major issues women in this world face--issues that women have faced for thousands of years. And by diverting to the issue of abortion, you basically told me you don't see those issues as important or even primary. Your response was dismissive of the very real pain and fear women all over the world endure, much of which is at the hands of men. Start wrestling with those, and perhaps you will begin to understand the abortion issue on a much deeper level. And perhaps you will be able to become a far more effective pro-life advocate. Men need to start taking responsibility for abortion, and until you do, you will not see the progress you desire. The answer very likely lies with men more than it does with women.

Why do you ask?

Is there a day of the year that those who post on Sojo will be ok with the rest of us just enjoying?