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Christian Zionism: Theology that Legitimates Oppression

100519_090530-3804-palestineI recently returned from a speaking engagement at the Bethlehem Bible College; and what I witnessed firsthand sent chills up my back. Listening to the horror stories told to me by oppressed Palestinians elicited feelings ranging from indignation to compassion. What was particularly upsetting were the pained questions of an elderly Christian Palestinian woman, who asked, "Why don't our Christian brothers and sisters in America care about what is happening to us? Do they even know we exist? Do they know that their tax dollars paid for the Israeli tanks that destroyed my house and the houses of my neighbors?"

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Ten years. Thousands of lives. Billions of dollars.

Twenty-five years ago, Bethlehem was 70 percent Christian. Today less than 15 percent of its population is Christian. Sometimes heartless and dehumanizing treatment that Bethlehem Christians have had to endure over the years has led most of them to emigrate to other countries. To this exodus, many religious Zionists say, "Good riddance!" Presently, 42 percent of all Israeli citizens believe that all Palestinians should be removed from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States. They are armed with a theology created in the middle of the 19th century by a disaffected Anglican clergyman named John Nelson Darby in Plymouth, England. With this theology, called "Dispensationalism," they argue that according to their interpretation of Genesis 15:18-21, the Holy Land should belong exclusively to the Jews. They contend that all of this land is what was promised to "the seed of Abraham" and, according to their interpretation of biblical prophecies, Jesus cannot return until all of this land is occupied by Jews, and all others are forced to leave.

Of course, the Darbyites completely ignore the fact that the Arab peoples are also the seed of Abraham, having descended to the present day from Hagar, one of Abraham's servants. They fail to notice that Abraham affirmed both Isaac (his son by Sarah) and Ishmael (his son by Hagar) as his seed and called both to be present to bury their common father (Genesis 25:9). Furthermore, they are also prone to ignore that the land that Christian Zionists argue should be occupied only by Jews stretches from the Euphrates River to the Nile (Genesis 15:18-21). This includes the land now occupied by Arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. That would mean that all of the Arabs in those countries would have to be forced to leave their homelands. I need not spell out the ramifications of what that would mean.

It should be noted that no prominent theologians until Darby (i.e., Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Aquinas) ever mentioned anything remotely resembling these claims made by dispensationalists. This Johnny-come-lately theology of John Nelson Darby has permeated American Protestantism via the publication in 1908 of the incredibly popular Scofield Reference Study Bible. Too often Evangelicals have treated the Scofield reference notes at the bottom of each page of scripture with almost as much reverence as they do the holy writ at the top of each page. So prevalent is Darby's dispensationalist theology that most Evangelicals would be surprised to learn that his prophecies of a "rapture" and the historical events that he taught would accompany the rapture are nowhere to be found in Christian theology prior to the mid-19th century. Darby's prophecies make the early church fathers, along with the apostle Paul, seem stupid since Christ could not possibly have returned during their own times, as they were prone to expect.

Darby's influence on American Protestantism has recently received an enormous boost with the publication of the Left Behind series of books by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. Their series of books which are imagined accounts of events leading up to the rapture have sold more than 100 million copies.

You can gain some idea of the huge ideological support Christian Zionists have gained as of late by considering the extremist claims of television evangelist Pat Robertson, who says that Palestinian Christians have no right at all to any part of the Holy Land, even though in many instances it has been land that their ancestors have lived on for generations.

There are those who blame the Jewish lobbies for the 30 percent of all U.S. foreign aid that has gone to the State of Israel and which has enabled the Israelis to create the fourth most powerful army in the world. In reality, however, it is the Christian Zionists, led by such powerful televangelists as John Hagee who have been the primary sources of pressure on the U.S. Congress to financially back the Israeli military that has made the injustices I have described possible.

I personally have witnessed the sadness and disillusionment of Christian Palestinians who feel that their American Christian brothers and sisters could not care less about the sufferings that they must endure. What troubles them most is that their fellow Evangelicals in America have very little understanding of the way the entire Islamic world views what is happening in the Holy Land, and how American Evangelicals who unquestioningly support Israel's policies are hindering evangelism among Muslims. They know that there is little understanding among American Christians that so many of the conflicts that exist between Muslims and Christians around the world are partially due to what is happening in the Holy Land. For instance, the media in the Muslim world has linked the oppression of Palestinians to the justification of attacks on Americans, in particular, and the western world, in general.

Given the historical existential situation, we, as American Christians, should lend support to the efforts to have safe and secure borders for the State of Israel and protection against terrorists; but we should be equally committed to having a well-established Palestinian state that also has safe and secure borders. We should be calling for the demolition of the separation wall that is as offensive as the Berlin Wall was. And we should be demanding that the border between these two states be the "green line" negotiated following the 1967 war.

Furthermore, we should be committed to a Palestine that has fair access to usable water and that its people have the same freedom to travel as Israelis presently enjoy.

We should be calling for justice for both peoples, because ours is a God who is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and calls on we Christians to be agents of reconciliation (II Corinthians 5:18).

Tony Campolo is founder of the Evangelical Association for the Promotion of Education (EAPE) and professor emeritus of sociology at Eastern University.

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by: treesaregood

05-23-2010 @ 5:58pm

I'm thoroughly impressed by the piece. Props to Campolo for going out on a limb for this. Non-Palestinian Christians have a big history of activism for Palestinian rights. Christian Peacemaker Teams regularly to do trips to the West Bank and work in solidarity with the non-violent protests that are going on there. http://www.cpt.org/

I'm also impressed by the way he frames it as taking the responsibility of the current situation on himself and upon the US church as a whole. He could have also gone into the parallels between the foreign military occupation of Palestine during the time of Jesus by the Roman military and the current situation today. Or he could have gone in depth with the story of the Good Samaritan through the lens of race and how that might correspond with widespread racism in Israeli society towards Palestinians. (Ironically, the West Bank is largely in the area that was once historic Samaria)

A couple criticisms though. I'm not totally down with this whole religio-nationalism that he espouses (there are Christians in Palestine or Iraq or Lebanon so we should therefor care more, etc) but even the most pro-justice voices in the spectrum of US Christianity use it as reasoning- even Shane Claiborne. So it goes.

I would also prefer that Campolo use the term "US Church" rather than "American Church" or "American Christians" since I'm pretty sure he isn't referring to the Church in Argentina or El Salvador.

Enough with the criticism though. Like I say, I'm thoroughly impressed.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 10:02pm

" believe Hagee believes in some form of 'dual-covenent' theology. And he's been accused of being a heretic because of it."

You mean that Hagee doesn't believe that the Jews have to accept Jesus as their Savior? They can reject Him? That does sound a bit "beyond the pale" for a conservative evangelical preacher.

by: treesaregood

05-23-2010 @ 5:58pm

I'm thoroughly impressed by the piece. Props to Campolo for going out on a limb for this. Non-Palestinian Christians have a big history of activism for Palestinian rights. Christian Peacemaker Teams regularly to do trips to the West Bank and work in solidarity with the non-violent protests that are going on there. http://www.cpt.org/

I'm also impressed by the way he frames it as taking the responsibility of the current situation on himself and upon the US church as a whole. He could have also gone into the parallels between the foreign military occupation of Palestine during the time of Jesus by the Roman military and the current situation today. Or he could have gone in depth with the story of the Good Samaritan through the lens of race and how that might correspond with widespread racism in Israeli society towards Palestinians. (Ironically, the West Bank is largely in the area that was once historic Samaria)

A couple criticisms though. I'm not totally down with this whole religio-nationalism that he espouses (there are Christians in Palestine or Iraq or Lebanon so we should therefor care more, etc) but even the most pro-justice voices in the spectrum of US Christianity use it as reasoning- even Shane Claiborne. So it goes.

I would also prefer that Campolo use the term "US Church" rather than "American Church" or "American Christians" since I'm pretty sure he isn't referring to the Church in Argentina or El Salvador.

Enough with the criticism though. Like I say, I'm thoroughly impressed.

by: idelette

05-19-2010 @ 11:15pm

Dear Tony
The sentence that grips me is the question from the elderly Christian Palestinian woman who asks: "Why don't our Christian brothers and sisters in America care about what is happening to us? I would love to share some of her story on our website: http://www.shelovesmagazine.com Any chance you could direct me to a source to help tell the story of our sisters in Palestine, please?
Thank you.

by: dan1132

05-24-2010 @ 6:45pm

Thank you, Mr Campolo, for making the preposterous notion of the Rapture even more exciting. For if it were not true, why would servants of the evil one -- the owner of the house -- attack this doctrine so consistently? (Luke 12:39)Choose your allies carefully, Mr Campolo. The best-known hater of John Nelson Darby's Rapture theology surely must have been Satanist Aleister Crowley, whose whole life became a rebellion against his Plymouth Brethren upbringing. Crowley's father was a traveling preacher and early follower of Darby.In the same way, Bono -- now the world's best-known social justice dogooder -- has said he walked away from the Christian community of his youth, rejecting what he called its "bollocks" fundamentalism based on the teaching of Watchman Nee. It's no secret that Watchman Nee was fed spiritually, in China, on the Bible teaching of John Nelson Darby and other Brethren writers.Bono, Jim Wallis, Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Barack Obama -- any friends of God's people Israel in that bunch?Just joining the dots for your readers, Mr Campolo. (Ephesians 5:11, Jude 1:23)

by: dpayton

05-21-2010 @ 3:45am

B_Barrett: "What this situation has always called for is simple: Unilateral non-aggression."

If the Palestinians, and their enablers, were to lay down their arms tomorrow, the fighting would stop. Period. Israel wants to live and let live.

If the Israelis were to lay down their arms tomorrow, there would be no Israel the following day. They do not want to let Israel live. Every Arab group enabling the Palestinians has the total destruction of Israel as part of their foundational documents. There is no reciprocal statement in anything Israel has ever said. Do you not see a vast gulf here?

Every good-faith move that Israel has made, including and especially forcibly removing Israelis from the West Bank, has been taken advantage of. The West Bank, instead of getting investment and becoming a tropical Mediterranean beach resort, has simply become a platform for nearly daily rocket attacks. The only thing that came from Israel leaving was that the rockets can be aimed deeper into Israel.

There is nothing that the Arabs have ever done to suggest that if Israel were to become unilaterally non-aggressive that they too would stop.

by: standotson407

05-24-2011 @ 10:36pm

As much as I agree with Tony Campolo's call for a just and compassionate solution to the violent conflict brought on by competing claims to holy land, I find it disconcerting that he takes some tired old pot shots at Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible and dispensationalists. So none of the classical theologians came to the same conclusions-- does that mean we should take our cue on Jewish-Christian relations from Martin Luther? Last I read, that approach led to a holocaust. And while none of the classical theologians used the word "Rapture", they all commented on I Thessalonians 4, and from what I've read, they had an expectation that Christ would come and that those who are alive would be "caught up with Christ in the clouds". Calvin simply struggled, as Augustine did, with perceived contradictions with Jesus' teaching that a grain of seed must die, so he saw the experience as a quick as a flash death and resurrection, but with the same effect as rapture. A final word: as one who grew up in a home that treasured the Scofield Bible, I can assure you that there is great diversity of opinion among dispensationalists as to the interpretation of events in the Middle East. It is a mystery that resists simple unveiling, and I observed many among the fold of Scofield note readers that would strongly support the two-state solution Tony Campolo calls for. So, while we on the politically liberal or progressive end of the spectrum are calling folks to love enemies, let's start by loving our own theological enemies, such as the dispensationalists, and let's not caricature them as so many are prone to do.

by: dpayton

05-21-2010 @ 3:45am

B_Barrett: "What this situation has always called for is simple: Unilateral non-aggression."

If the Palestinians, and their enablers, were to lay down their arms tomorrow, the fighting would stop. Period. Israel wants to live and let live.

If the Israelis were to lay down their arms tomorrow, there would be no Israel the following day. They do not want to let Israel live. Every Arab group enabling the Palestinians has the total destruction of Israel as part of their foundational documents. There is no reciprocal statement in anything Israel has ever said. Do you not see a vast gulf here?

Every good-faith move that Israel has made, including and especially forcibly removing Israelis from the West Bank, has been taken advantage of. The West Bank, instead of getting investment and becoming a tropical Mediterranean beach resort, has simply become a platform for nearly daily rocket attacks. The only thing that came from Israel leaving was that the rockets can be aimed deeper into Israel.

There is nothing that the Arabs have ever done to suggest that if Israel were to become unilaterally non-aggressive that they too would stop.

by: BlueDeacon

05-21-2010 @ 3:46am

I attended a Bible study on Revelation about a year-and-a-half ago, and virtually none of the things you read about in it are anything more than a dream, if you will; it's not referring to future events. This is what happens when you lift the Scriptures from their original, intended context. For example, Middle Eastern culture doesn't have a concept of literal time the way we do in the West. On top of that, "a thousand years" is a euphemism for "forever."

by: BlueDeacon

05-21-2010 @ 3:46am

I attended a Bible study on Revelation about a year-and-a-half ago, and virtually none of the things you read about in it are anything more than a dream, if you will; it's not referring to future events. This is what happens when you lift the Scriptures from their original, intended context. For example, Middle Eastern culture doesn't have a concept of literal time the way we do in the West. On top of that, "a thousand years" is a euphemism for "forever."

by: Ngchen

05-20-2010 @ 2:37pm

Unless he's backtracked (I don't keep track of him that much) then yes, he does believe that God's arranged a "second way" for the Jews to come to him, besides accepting Jesus as savior. His book In Defense of Israel spells out his argument, and the group "Christians United for Israel" has a lot to do with the ideas.

Yes, as I mentioned previously, "dual-covenant" theology has been argued as being heretical.

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by: dpayton

05-20-2010 @ 4:32pm

It's an AP report, Oct. You handwave it away because a conservative blog noted it. (I linked to the blog because I thought the comments had some good information in them as well.) Here's a direct link to the news article so you don't have to sully yourself by going to an alleged "right-wing anti-Muslim" site.

Blinders? Log in own eye?

by: Octoberfurst

05-20-2010 @ 3:56pm

dpayton, I find your post to be utter nonsense. Israel has been FAR more violent towards the Palestinians that the Palestinians have been towards Israel. Just compare the death toles. Thousands of Palestians killed versus a handful of Israelies.
Also the site you refered to is a right-wing anti-Muslim site so I take their "reporting" with a grain of salt. They don't even say where this article came from or who wrote it. Personally I think the article is total nonsense because Gaza already has a severe homeless problem--thanks to Israel--so why would they destroy even more homes???
You need to take your blinders off my friend and educate yourself. We must work for justice for the Palestinians and force Israel to accept a two-state solution instead of letting them gobble up what is left of the West Bank. Justice demands it.
By the way, there are Jews living in Arab lands. For example, twenty thousand Jews live in Morocco and they have no problems.

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 2:53pm

So Christian Zionists are taking over Bethlehem?

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 2:53pm

So Christian Zionists are taking over Bethlehem?

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2010 @ 5:44pm

Doing a bit of Googling, I found the following:

http://www.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen...

"In the expanded Chapter Ten, I will make the same point with language that does not hide my own perspective on the matter. The primary change will involve how I use the word "Messiah." In the expanded version, I will clarify the clear distinction between the 'Suffering Messiah,' the Lamb of God and the 'Reigning Messiah,' the Lion of the Tribe of Judah!"

It seems that Hagee believes that the Jews will accept Jesus as the "reigning Messiah" when he returns.

However, what does Hagee believe will happen if the Jews decide to remain Jewish upon Jesus' return?

by: Dadofiandi

05-20-2010 @ 5:47pm

Just an aside for the whole thread read Son of Hamas. Good history of events in Israel, the creation of Hamas and of its involvement with the PLO. It is written by oldest son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, the spiritual leader of Hamas. How he became a spy for Shin Bet and now is a Christian.
It's autobiographical so it's subjective but gives an "insiders" perspective.

by: liberalinlove

05-25-2010 @ 12:27am

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/tran...
Bill Moyers on Hagee, dispensationalism etc. interesting read.

by: BlueDeacon

05-28-2010 @ 2:00pm

This has nothing to do with "Sojourners propaganda" -- this is an issue of Biblical truth, and dispensationalism isn't it. And if anyone should know, Tony Campolo would; after all, he grew up with it.

by: liberalinlove

05-25-2010 @ 12:06am

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29 NIV). I wonder which piece of property I'd like.

By the way, I support several Jewish ministries, so I do love God's people. But loving God means loving justice also.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2010 @ 3:20pm

Dispensationalists ignore one point of Scripture -- ancient Israel's claim to the land was predicated on their obedience to God because He intended to use that nation to be a blessing to the rest of the world. No one in his right mind will argue that modern-day Israel is in obedience, especially considering that it rejects His Messiah.

by: liberalinlove

05-24-2010 @ 11:39pm

Wow, men who seek peace are the enemies of Israel. What a giant leap. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Matthew 5:9. I wonder what the Lord could have been thinking, himself a Jew, when he made reference to this at the sermon of the Mount. He must have meant unless you are a Palestinian Christian, or one who advocates for them. What else would a lover of Israel and simultaneous Savior of the world be thinking when he addressed the crowds gathered to hear him. When God gathers His people, they may displace generational families from their homes, who at one time lived peacefully, working the land, worshiping God, hmmm. I'm just so confused here.

I would say the end does not justify the means, and the fruit is not so tasty. All the dispensationalists from my childhood spent most of their lives looking for the anti-christ, instead of being about their Father's business. Maybe that is why some of these social justice do-gooders have walked away from their "faith". Maybe it lacked the sweet aroma of Jesus and what He calls us to be and do.

by: TimesShort

05-11-2011 @ 6:27pm

I do belive myself that the land was promised to the Jews for the Hornets mission was to chase who out....

I do have to ask what of the Non Christin Palestinian is it only the Christins we care about -- what of there issue.

I do know there will be a man to help with this issue and we know him as the Anti Christ -- sweet its so nice to see the Bible in action.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2010 @ 3:20pm

Dispensationalists ignore one point of Scripture -- ancient Israel's claim to the land was predicated on their obedience to God because He intended to use that nation to be a blessing to the rest of the world. No one in his right mind will argue that modern-day Israel is in obedience, especially considering that it rejects His Messiah.

by: JohnH54

05-20-2010 @ 6:59pm

I will admit I'm a dispensationalist. Just want to make that clear. However, I do not know of a single dispensationalist who teaches that only 144,000 will be saved. Rather, ALL Israel will be saved. ALL Israel will accept the Messiah. That's the point Paul is making in Romans 9-11. I think all means all.

In fact, the end of Hosea 5 and beginning of Hosea 6 say that they will call out for the Messiah to return and rescue them, and He will.

Hagee has a different view on this, and he's wrong and has been severely criticized for that view.

by: mathrandir

05-19-2010 @ 3:01pm

I think I'd have to disagree that John Hagee personally has any appreciable effect on decisions in Congress. In fact, I'd hypothesize that almost any other lobbying group in the country has at least the same amount of influence as him.

On the other hand, this isn't the point. The pervasiveness of this particular brand of theology among the American populace *is* politically influential, if for no other reason that most American Christians grew up hearing some flavor of it in Sunday School, from the pulpit, and even from politicians on TV. And here, Campolo's point is well-made.

More often than not, the modern-day country known as Israel doesn't act as a picture of the kingdom of God, rather as a nuisance to the peace of human-kind. It's time for Americans to wake up and smell the bad theology.

by: JohnH54

05-20-2010 @ 6:55pm

pdayton, citing facts to people on the left is a waste of time. Arab oppression of Palestinians is far greater than what Israel has done. Again, facts do not matter to people like Octoberfurst.

by: mathrandir

05-19-2010 @ 3:01pm

I think I'd have to disagree that John Hagee personally has any appreciable effect on decisions in Congress. In fact, I'd hypothesize that almost any other lobbying group in the country has at least the same amount of influence as him.

On the other hand, this isn't the point. The pervasiveness of this particular brand of theology among the American populace *is* politically influential, if for no other reason that most American Christians grew up hearing some flavor of it in Sunday School, from the pulpit, and even from politicians on TV. And here, Campolo's point is well-made.

More often than not, the modern-day country known as Israel doesn't act as a picture of the kingdom of God, rather as a nuisance to the peace of human-kind. It's time for Americans to wake up and smell the bad theology.

by: Jonwards

06-01-2011 @ 1:37am

A most interesting and provocative piece I found on Google that deals with Christian Zionism is titled "Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism." I invite all to check it out.

by: ckgmailOTscholar

05-19-2010 @ 3:48pm

Mathrandir's point about Hagee is probably well taken. Other dispensationalists do have tremendous influence. Christian ministers who preach dispensationalism have bought into this johnny-come-lately theology, not knowing, or more likely, not caring that it is johnny-come-lately. Dispensationalism bends Daniel and Revelation into its scheme, starting with the scheme and then making scripture fit.

by: ckgmailOTscholar

05-19-2010 @ 3:48pm

Mathrandir's point about Hagee is probably well taken. Other dispensationalists do have tremendous influence. Christian ministers who preach dispensationalism have bought into this johnny-come-lately theology, not knowing, or more likely, not caring that it is johnny-come-lately. Dispensationalism bends Daniel and Revelation into its scheme, starting with the scheme and then making scripture fit.

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by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 5:02pm

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States.

So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? I'm guessing Hamas is pre-trib and Hezbollah is post-trib? Or do I have that backwards?

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 5:02pm

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States.

So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? I'm guessing Hamas is pre-trib and Hezbollah is post-trib? Or do I have that backwards?

LV

by: dpayton

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Granted: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are perfect.
Granted: Both sides insist they are protecting themselves from the other.

Given that, Israel has been far more peaceful towards the Palestinians than the other way around. Israel has carried out targeted strikes against Palestinians they claim are responsible for attacks. The Palestinians, on the other hand, lob missiles at civilians in Sderot just about daily for years. (Pausing, of course, for when their ambassador, former President Carter, visits the area.) These days, Palestinians are destroying Palestinian homes. It's understandable if you didn't know this, as the MSM refuses to report about any issue in the Middle East unless it can blame Israel for it.

Appealing to theology is a smoke screen. Unless and until the Palestinians clean their own house, there's very little to discuss. Yes, we should send humanitarian aid. Yes we should speak out about injustice on both sides. Yes we should let the plight of Palestinian Christian be known. But life for Arabs, any Arabs, in Israel is far, far better than it is for Jews in any Arab land (if they're even allowed in). Please keep that in mind.

by: dpayton

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Granted: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are perfect.
Granted: Both sides insist they are protecting themselves from the other.

Given that, Israel has been far more peaceful towards the Palestinians than the other way around. Israel has carried out targeted strikes against Palestinians they claim are responsible for attacks. The Palestinians, on the other hand, lob missiles at civilians in Sderot just about daily for years. (Pausing, of course, for when their ambassador, former President Carter, visits the area.) These days, Palestinians are destroying Palestinian homes. It's understandable if you didn't know this, as the MSM refuses to report about any issue in the Middle East unless it can blame Israel for it.

Appealing to theology is a smoke screen. Unless and until the Palestinians clean their own house, there's very little to discuss. Yes, we should send humanitarian aid. Yes we should speak out about injustice on both sides. Yes we should let the plight of Palestinian Christian be known. But life for Arabs, any Arabs, in Israel is far, far better than it is for Jews in any Arab land (if they're even allowed in). Please keep that in mind.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria, was particularly obsessed with the Covenant area.
As a Biblical point, it's interesting to note that the earlier prophets like Amos, and also the stories of Elijah and Elisha, indicate that God was active and judging all the kingdoms within the Covenant area. Amos in particular condemns the other kingdoms for a lot of diplomatic skull-duggery against one another, not just against Israel and Judah. And Elijah is given power at Mount Horeb to anoint non-Jewish kings. So for at least part of the Bible, the Land is seen as God's special province, but not necessarily the special province of the Hebrews (as they were at that time).

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria, was particularly obsessed with the Covenant area.
As a Biblical point, it's interesting to note that the earlier prophets like Amos, and also the stories of Elijah and Elisha, indicate that God was active and judging all the kingdoms within the Covenant area. Amos in particular condemns the other kingdoms for a lot of diplomatic skull-duggery against one another, not just against Israel and Judah. And Elijah is given power at Mount Horeb to anoint non-Jewish kings. So for at least part of the Bible, the Land is seen as God's special province, but not necessarily the special province of the Hebrews (as they were at that time).

by: histrogeek

05-20-2010 @ 8:18pm

My apologies.
The 144,000 comes from Revelations (can't recall the exact chapter sorry) and has been quoted to me by several Christians I've met who met who were interested in the End Times; I must have mistaken their interpretations for those of dispensationalists.
I think Hal Lindsey used it too, but I could be wrong about that.

by: NC77

05-21-2010 @ 4:34pm

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. That is the crux of the problem with dispensationalism. All (Gentile and Hebrew) who are in Christ are the true Jews. The ones that are circumcised by the heart (the spirit), not the flesh (the law), are the true Jews. The Jews were not abandoned for "the church" age because they rejected Christ. The Gentiles were grafted into a tree that they were not a natural part of. Romans 11

Compolo seems to lack understanding of the New Testament scriptures. I say that based on his assertion - "Of course, the Darbyites completely ignore the fact that the Arab peoples are also the seed of Abraham, having descended to the present day from Hagar, one of Abraham's servants. They fail to notice that Abraham affirmed both Isaac (his son by Sarah) and Ishmael (his son by Hagar) as his seed and called both to be present to bury their common father (Genesis 25:9).

Read Galations 4:21-31. Hagar is the slave women, while Sarah the free woman. Those who are saved through faith in Christ are children of the free woman. Those who are children of Hagar and rely on the law for righteous are slaves, and do not belong to Christ.

It hinges on a correct understanding of the Abrahamic convenant. Salvation is by faith, not by the law of God. The Jews were set apart as a nation after they were delivered out of Eygpt so that the seed of Abraham (Jesus), the promise of a savior for sinful man could be brought into the world. All who believe are the seed of Abraham and have received the promise. Anyone who is the seed of Hagar is a slave under the law.

by: NC77

05-21-2010 @ 4:34pm

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. That is the crux of the problem with dispensationalism. All (Gentile and Hebrew) who are in Christ are the true Jews. The ones that are circumcised by the heart (the spirit), not the flesh (the law), are the true Jews. The Jews were not abandoned for "the church" age because they rejected Christ. The Gentiles were grafted into a tree that they were not a natural part of. Romans 11

Compolo seems to lack understanding of the New Testament scriptures. I say that based on his assertion - "Of course, the Darbyites completely ignore the fact that the Arab peoples are also the seed of Abraham, having descended to the present day from Hagar, one of Abraham's servants. They fail to notice that Abraham affirmed both Isaac (his son by Sarah) and Ishmael (his son by Hagar) as his seed and called both to be present to bury their common father (Genesis 25:9).

Read Galations 4:21-31. Hagar is the slave women, while Sarah the free woman. Those who are saved through faith in Christ are children of the free woman. Those who are children of Hagar and rely on the law for righteous are slaves, and do not belong to Christ.

It hinges on a correct understanding of the Abrahamic convenant. Salvation is by faith, not by the law of God. The Jews were set apart as a nation after they were delivered out of Eygpt so that the seed of Abraham (Jesus), the promise of a savior for sinful man could be brought into the world. All who believe are the seed of Abraham and have received the promise. Anyone who is the seed of Hagar is a slave under the law.

by: liberalinlove

05-21-2010 @ 4:12pm

removed

by: liberalinlove

05-21-2010 @ 4:12pm

removed

by: JohnH54

05-20-2010 @ 9:01pm

You don't have to apologize. It's a common error. Part of it comes from the
Jehovah Witness use of the term that only 144,000 will be saved.

The passage in Revelation refers to 144,000 witnesses, 12,000 from each
tribe who will witness about the Messiah. I think it means 144,000. YMMV.

Again, Paul in Romans 9-11 talks about "all Israel" being saved. Not just
144,000, but all Israel. Again, read that along with the end of Hosea 5 and
beginning of Hosea 6.

by: WitnessforPeace

06-17-2010 @ 8:56am

In this discussion of who is going to Hell, we're leaving a lot out. God is merciful, and God is just. Either we believe this about God, or we place ourselves as judges of His actions. In taking the place of God, we become idolaters, worshiping ourselves.
So, I 'd recommend shifting the focus OFF who's going where and leaving it up to God. I'd recommend this to Hagee et al, as well. The difference would be that it is conventionally assumed that Dispensationalists believe in God's love and justice. Liberal theology, in which much of this discussion is steeped, places men and women in the place of God by exalting human Reason above Revelation through Scripture and Jesus. A theological liberal would SAY they believed in God's love, of course, but it would be "love" watered down by a sentimental, and dangerous, defining of divine love out of existence. And "justice," far from being the reign of a loving and wise God, becomes a political program where power and privilege are exercised by the few in the name of the many.
As for the original column: while I admire Tony Campolo in many ways, he places way too much stress on how the Jews got there. By, in effect, disputing their right to protect themselves he comes dangerously close to agreeing with the odious Helen Thomas that the Jews ought to go somewhere else. A better focus would be on the deplorable oppressions visited by the PLO leadership and Hamas on the Palestinians, by PREVENTING their permanent resettlement, and using them to gain political power. And, in the case of Arafat and others, a pretty nifty palace to live in at someone else's expense.
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by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:05pm

You imply that Muslim theology, faith and practice is often sick and distorted. Doh! I agree!

This makes you feel better about sick, distorted versions of Christian faith, theology and practice? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A plague upon all their houses: Dispensational Christian, Hamas, and Hezbollah!

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:05pm

You imply that Muslim theology, faith and practice is often sick and distorted. Doh! I agree!

This makes you feel better about sick, distorted versions of Christian faith, theology and practice? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A plague upon all their houses: Dispensational Christian, Hamas, and Hezbollah!

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: dpayton

05-21-2010 @ 3:45am

B_Barrett: "What this situation has always called for is simple: Unilateral non-aggression."

If the Palestinians, and their enablers, were to lay down their arms tomorrow, the fighting would stop. Period. Israel wants to live and let live.

If the Israelis were to lay down their arms tomorrow, there would be no Israel the following day. They do not want to let Israel live. Every Arab group enabling the Palestinians has the total destruction of Israel as part of their foundational documents. There is no reciprocal statement in anything Israel has ever said. Do you not see a vast gulf here?

Every good-faith move that Israel has made, including and especially forcibly removing Israelis from the West Bank, has been taken advantage of. The West Bank, instead of getting investment and becoming a tropical Mediterranean beach resort, has simply become a platform for nearly daily rocket attacks. The only thing that came from Israel leaving was that the rockets can be aimed deeper into Israel.

There is nothing that the Arabs have ever done to suggest that if Israel were to become unilaterally non-aggressive that they too would stop.

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 2:53pm

So Christian Zionists are taking over Bethlehem?

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 2:53pm

So Christian Zionists are taking over Bethlehem?

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 2:53pm

So Christian Zionists are taking over Bethlehem?

by: mathrandir

05-19-2010 @ 3:01pm

I think I'd have to disagree that John Hagee personally has any appreciable effect on decisions in Congress. In fact, I'd hypothesize that almost any other lobbying group in the country has at least the same amount of influence as him.

On the other hand, this isn't the point. The pervasiveness of this particular brand of theology among the American populace *is* politically influential, if for no other reason that most American Christians grew up hearing some flavor of it in Sunday School, from the pulpit, and even from politicians on TV. And here, Campolo's point is well-made.

More often than not, the modern-day country known as Israel doesn't act as a picture of the kingdom of God, rather as a nuisance to the peace of human-kind. It's time for Americans to wake up and smell the bad theology.

by: mathrandir

05-19-2010 @ 3:01pm

I think I'd have to disagree that John Hagee personally has any appreciable effect on decisions in Congress. In fact, I'd hypothesize that almost any other lobbying group in the country has at least the same amount of influence as him.

On the other hand, this isn't the point. The pervasiveness of this particular brand of theology among the American populace *is* politically influential, if for no other reason that most American Christians grew up hearing some flavor of it in Sunday School, from the pulpit, and even from politicians on TV. And here, Campolo's point is well-made.

More often than not, the modern-day country known as Israel doesn't act as a picture of the kingdom of God, rather as a nuisance to the peace of human-kind. It's time for Americans to wake up and smell the bad theology.

by: mathrandir

05-19-2010 @ 3:01pm

I think I'd have to disagree that John Hagee personally has any appreciable effect on decisions in Congress. In fact, I'd hypothesize that almost any other lobbying group in the country has at least the same amount of influence as him.

On the other hand, this isn't the point. The pervasiveness of this particular brand of theology among the American populace *is* politically influential, if for no other reason that most American Christians grew up hearing some flavor of it in Sunday School, from the pulpit, and even from politicians on TV. And here, Campolo's point is well-made.

More often than not, the modern-day country known as Israel doesn't act as a picture of the kingdom of God, rather as a nuisance to the peace of human-kind. It's time for Americans to wake up and smell the bad theology.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2010 @ 3:20pm

Dispensationalists ignore one point of Scripture -- ancient Israel's claim to the land was predicated on their obedience to God because He intended to use that nation to be a blessing to the rest of the world. No one in his right mind will argue that modern-day Israel is in obedience, especially considering that it rejects His Messiah.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2010 @ 3:20pm

Dispensationalists ignore one point of Scripture -- ancient Israel's claim to the land was predicated on their obedience to God because He intended to use that nation to be a blessing to the rest of the world. No one in his right mind will argue that modern-day Israel is in obedience, especially considering that it rejects His Messiah.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2010 @ 3:20pm

Dispensationalists ignore one point of Scripture -- ancient Israel's claim to the land was predicated on their obedience to God because He intended to use that nation to be a blessing to the rest of the world. No one in his right mind will argue that modern-day Israel is in obedience, especially considering that it rejects His Messiah.

by: ckgmailOTscholar

05-19-2010 @ 3:48pm

Mathrandir's point about Hagee is probably well taken. Other dispensationalists do have tremendous influence. Christian ministers who preach dispensationalism have bought into this johnny-come-lately theology, not knowing, or more likely, not caring that it is johnny-come-lately. Dispensationalism bends Daniel and Revelation into its scheme, starting with the scheme and then making scripture fit.

by: ckgmailOTscholar

05-19-2010 @ 3:48pm

Mathrandir's point about Hagee is probably well taken. Other dispensationalists do have tremendous influence. Christian ministers who preach dispensationalism have bought into this johnny-come-lately theology, not knowing, or more likely, not caring that it is johnny-come-lately. Dispensationalism bends Daniel and Revelation into its scheme, starting with the scheme and then making scripture fit.

by: ckgmailOTscholar

05-19-2010 @ 3:48pm

Mathrandir's point about Hagee is probably well taken. Other dispensationalists do have tremendous influence. Christian ministers who preach dispensationalism have bought into this johnny-come-lately theology, not knowing, or more likely, not caring that it is johnny-come-lately. Dispensationalism bends Daniel and Revelation into its scheme, starting with the scheme and then making scripture fit.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria, was particularly obsessed with the Covenant area.
As a Biblical point, it's interesting to note that the earlier prophets like Amos, and also the stories of Elijah and Elisha, indicate that God was active and judging all the kingdoms within the Covenant area. Amos in particular condemns the other kingdoms for a lot of diplomatic skull-duggery against one another, not just against Israel and Judah. And Elijah is given power at Mount Horeb to anoint non-Jewish kings. So for at least part of the Bible, the Land is seen as God's special province, but not necessarily the special province of the Hebrews (as they were at that time).

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria, was particularly obsessed with the Covenant area.
As a Biblical point, it's interesting to note that the earlier prophets like Amos, and also the stories of Elijah and Elisha, indicate that God was active and judging all the kingdoms within the Covenant area. Amos in particular condemns the other kingdoms for a lot of diplomatic skull-duggery against one another, not just against Israel and Judah. And Elijah is given power at Mount Horeb to anoint non-Jewish kings. So for at least part of the Bible, the Land is seen as God's special province, but not necessarily the special province of the Hebrews (as they were at that time).

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Hafez Assad, the late president of Syria, was particularly obsessed with the Covenant area.
As a Biblical point, it's interesting to note that the earlier prophets like Amos, and also the stories of Elijah and Elisha, indicate that God was active and judging all the kingdoms within the Covenant area. Amos in particular condemns the other kingdoms for a lot of diplomatic skull-duggery against one another, not just against Israel and Judah. And Elijah is given power at Mount Horeb to anoint non-Jewish kings. So for at least part of the Bible, the Land is seen as God's special province, but not necessarily the special province of the Hebrews (as they were at that time).

by: dpayton

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Granted: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are perfect.
Granted: Both sides insist they are protecting themselves from the other.

Given that, Israel has been far more peaceful towards the Palestinians than the other way around. Israel has carried out targeted strikes against Palestinians they claim are responsible for attacks. The Palestinians, on the other hand, lob missiles at civilians in Sderot just about daily for years. (Pausing, of course, for when their ambassador, former President Carter, visits the area.) These days, Palestinians are destroying Palestinian homes. It's understandable if you didn't know this, as the MSM refuses to report about any issue in the Middle East unless it can blame Israel for it.

Appealing to theology is a smoke screen. Unless and until the Palestinians clean their own house, there's very little to discuss. Yes, we should send humanitarian aid. Yes we should speak out about injustice on both sides. Yes we should let the plight of Palestinian Christian be known. But life for Arabs, any Arabs, in Israel is far, far better than it is for Jews in any Arab land (if they're even allowed in). Please keep that in mind.

by: dpayton

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Granted: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are perfect.
Granted: Both sides insist they are protecting themselves from the other.

Given that, Israel has been far more peaceful towards the Palestinians than the other way around. Israel has carried out targeted strikes against Palestinians they claim are responsible for attacks. The Palestinians, on the other hand, lob missiles at civilians in Sderot just about daily for years. (Pausing, of course, for when their ambassador, former President Carter, visits the area.) These days, Palestinians are destroying Palestinian homes. It's understandable if you didn't know this, as the MSM refuses to report about any issue in the Middle East unless it can blame Israel for it.

Appealing to theology is a smoke screen. Unless and until the Palestinians clean their own house, there's very little to discuss. Yes, we should send humanitarian aid. Yes we should speak out about injustice on both sides. Yes we should let the plight of Palestinian Christian be known. But life for Arabs, any Arabs, in Israel is far, far better than it is for Jews in any Arab land (if they're even allowed in). Please keep that in mind.

by: dpayton

05-19-2010 @ 5:01pm

Granted: Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are perfect.
Granted: Both sides insist they are protecting themselves from the other.

Given that, Israel has been far more peaceful towards the Palestinians than the other way around. Israel has carried out targeted strikes against Palestinians they claim are responsible for attacks. The Palestinians, on the other hand, lob missiles at civilians in Sderot just about daily for years. (Pausing, of course, for when their ambassador, former President Carter, visits the area.) These days, Palestinians are destroying Palestinian homes. It's understandable if you didn't know this, as the MSM refuses to report about any issue in the Middle East unless it can blame Israel for it.

Appealing to theology is a smoke screen. Unless and until the Palestinians clean their own house, there's very little to discuss. Yes, we should send humanitarian aid. Yes we should speak out about injustice on both sides. Yes we should let the plight of Palestinian Christian be known. But life for Arabs, any Arabs, in Israel is far, far better than it is for Jews in any Arab land (if they're even allowed in). Please keep that in mind.

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 5:02pm

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States.

So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? I'm guessing Hamas is pre-trib and Hezbollah is post-trib? Or do I have that backwards?

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 5:02pm

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States.

So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? I'm guessing Hamas is pre-trib and Hezbollah is post-trib? Or do I have that backwards?

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

05-19-2010 @ 5:02pm

The most serious threats to the well-being of the Palestinians in general, and to the Christian Palestinians in particular, come not from the Jews, but from Christian Zionists here in the United States.

So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? I'm guessing Hamas is pre-trib and Hezbollah is post-trib? Or do I have that backwards?

LV

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 7:52pm

I don't understand "Christian Zionists" or "dispensationalism." Because what happens in their scenario when Jesus returns and the Israelis, being Jewish, don't accept Him as the Messiah? Do these Jews all end up going to Hell?

If I were an Israeli Jew, I would be very, very suspicious of a group of "Christian Zionists" who would support this sort of scenario. In the very end, according to the "Christian Zionists" vision, most Israelis would be condemned to eternal damnation.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 7:52pm

I don't understand "Christian Zionists" or "dispensationalism." Because what happens in their scenario when Jesus returns and the Israelis, being Jewish, don't accept Him as the Messiah? Do these Jews all end up going to Hell?

If I were an Israeli Jew, I would be very, very suspicious of a group of "Christian Zionists" who would support this sort of scenario. In the very end, according to the "Christian Zionists" vision, most Israelis would be condemned to eternal damnation.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 7:52pm

I don't understand "Christian Zionists" or "dispensationalism." Because what happens in their scenario when Jesus returns and the Israelis, being Jewish, don't accept Him as the Messiah? Do these Jews all end up going to Hell?

If I were an Israeli Jew, I would be very, very suspicious of a group of "Christian Zionists" who would support this sort of scenario. In the very end, according to the "Christian Zionists" vision, most Israelis would be condemned to eternal damnation.

by: john316

05-19-2010 @ 7:59pm

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews "will be saved."

by: john316

05-19-2010 @ 7:59pm

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews "will be saved."

by: john316

05-19-2010 @ 7:59pm

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews "will be saved."

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

God's promise "land grant promise" to Abraham in Genesis 12 was unconditional. God's promise "land grant promise" to Israel was "conditional," Deuteronomy 28 especially certainly emphasizes blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. So it depends upon the particular texts. As I read the NT, there is a shift from "land emphasis" to "kingdom of God" emphasis which is a reality beyond borders and flags.

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

God's promise "land grant promise" to Abraham in Genesis 12 was unconditional. God's promise "land grant promise" to Israel was "conditional," Deuteronomy 28 especially certainly emphasizes blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. So it depends upon the particular texts. As I read the NT, there is a shift from "land emphasis" to "kingdom of God" emphasis which is a reality beyond borders and flags.

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

God's promise "land grant promise" to Abraham in Genesis 12 was unconditional. God's promise "land grant promise" to Israel was "conditional," Deuteronomy 28 especially certainly emphasizes blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. So it depends upon the particular texts. As I read the NT, there is a shift from "land emphasis" to "kingdom of God" emphasis which is a reality beyond borders and flags.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

Yes to both of your questions. Their theology believes that a remnant of 144,000 Jews will be saved at the end of days.
Many Israelis are suspicious of these Christian Zionists, but don't want to pick a fight with a political ally over a religious point.
On the other hand, the Dispensationalist crowd are both dangerous to Israel and Palestine because their support for Israel is based on its usefulness in provoking the end of the world.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

Yes to both of your questions. Their theology believes that a remnant of 144,000 Jews will be saved at the end of days.
Many Israelis are suspicious of these Christian Zionists, but don't want to pick a fight with a political ally over a religious point.
On the other hand, the Dispensationalist crowd are both dangerous to Israel and Palestine because their support for Israel is based on its usefulness in provoking the end of the world.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:02pm

Yes to both of your questions. Their theology believes that a remnant of 144,000 Jews will be saved at the end of days.
Many Israelis are suspicious of these Christian Zionists, but don't want to pick a fight with a political ally over a religious point.
On the other hand, the Dispensationalist crowd are both dangerous to Israel and Palestine because their support for Israel is based on its usefulness in provoking the end of the world.

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:05pm

You imply that Muslim theology, faith and practice is often sick and distorted. Doh! I agree!

This makes you feel better about sick, distorted versions of Christian faith, theology and practice? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A plague upon all their houses: Dispensational Christian, Hamas, and Hezbollah!

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:05pm

You imply that Muslim theology, faith and practice is often sick and distorted. Doh! I agree!

This makes you feel better about sick, distorted versions of Christian faith, theology and practice? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A plague upon all their houses: Dispensational Christian, Hamas, and Hezbollah!

by: duhsciple

05-19-2010 @ 8:05pm

You imply that Muslim theology, faith and practice is often sick and distorted. Doh! I agree!

This makes you feel better about sick, distorted versions of Christian faith, theology and practice? Sorry, I'm not buying it. A plague upon all their houses: Dispensational Christian, Hamas, and Hezbollah!

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:14pm

"So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? "

Hamas and Hezbollah are not fighting each other. Hamas is headquartered in Gaza with a strong presence in the West Bank. Hezbollah is located in Lebanon especially in the south.
I suspect you mean Fatah instead of Hezbollah. Aside from their dislike of Israel, the three groups have very little in common.
Incidentally, Christian Zionism is not innocent in the intra-Palestinian fighting. Hamas would be nothing had Israel, sponsored by its belligerent supports including Christian Zionists, not used Hamas to drive the PLO from Gaza back in the 80s.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:14pm

"So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? "

Hamas and Hezbollah are not fighting each other. Hamas is headquartered in Gaza with a strong presence in the West Bank. Hezbollah is located in Lebanon especially in the south.
I suspect you mean Fatah instead of Hezbollah. Aside from their dislike of Israel, the three groups have very little in common.
Incidentally, Christian Zionism is not innocent in the intra-Palestinian fighting. Hamas would be nothing had Israel, sponsored by its belligerent supports including Christian Zionists, not used Hamas to drive the PLO from Gaza back in the 80s.

by: histrogeek

05-19-2010 @ 8:14pm

"So all the bitter infighting between Hamas and Hezbollah that has contributed to the suffering on the West Bank has its roots in differing schools of Dispensationalists? "

Hamas and Hezbollah are not fighting each other. Hamas is headquartered in Gaza with a strong presence in the West Bank. Hezbollah is located in Lebanon especially in the south.
I suspect you mean Fatah instead of Hezbollah. Aside from their dislike of Israel, the three groups have very little in common.
Incidentally, Christian Zionism is not innocent in the intra-Palestinian fighting. Hamas would be nothing had Israel, sponsored by its belligerent supports including Christian Zionists, not used Hamas to drive the PLO from Gaza back in the 80s.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 8:35pm

"I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews 'will be saved.'"

Even if these Jews remain Jewish and don't convert to Christianity? I would like to see how Hagee gets around this problem.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 8:35pm

"I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews 'will be saved.'"

Even if these Jews remain Jewish and don't convert to Christianity? I would like to see how Hagee gets around this problem.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 8:35pm

"I could be wrong about this, but I believe that Reverend Hagee has devised some theories about how the Jews 'will be saved.'"

Even if these Jews remain Jewish and don't convert to Christianity? I would like to see how Hagee gets around this problem.

by: Ngchen

05-19-2010 @ 8:40pm

I believe Hagee believes in some form of "dual-covenent" theology. And he's been accused of being a heretic because of it.

by: Ngchen

05-19-2010 @ 8:40pm

I believe Hagee believes in some form of "dual-covenent" theology. And he's been accused of being a heretic because of it.

by: Ngchen

05-19-2010 @ 8:40pm

I believe Hagee believes in some form of "dual-covenent" theology. And he's been accused of being a heretic because of it.

by: carlcopas

05-19-2010 @ 9:38pm

That's correct.

by: carlcopas

05-19-2010 @ 9:38pm

That's correct.

by: carlcopas

05-19-2010 @ 9:38pm

That's correct.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2010 @ 10:02pm

" believe Hagee believes in some form of 'dual-covenent' theology. And he's been accused of being a heretic because of it."

You mean that Hagee doesn't believe that the Jews have to accept Jesus as their Savior? They can reject Him? That does sound a bit "beyond the pale" for a conservative evangelical preacher.