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Christian Anti-Logic and Immigration Reform

100521_100501-0781-immigration-rallyThe issue of illegal immigration in the United States requires an anti-logic of radical love. (The anti-logic I propose is not fallacious logic. The distinction is a topic for another essay.) Christianity is a counter-intuitive religion. The ethics of Jesus requires a rationality that is antithetical to ordinary logic. When ordinary logic says if someone hits you, hit them back, the anti-logic of Jesus says turn the other cheek. When ordinary logic says love your friends and hate your enemies, the anti-logic of Jesus says love your enemies. When ordinary logic says treat others the way they treat you, anti-logic says treat others the way you WANT them to treat you. When ordinary logic says return more evil for evil, anti-logic says overcome evil with good.

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On the question of illegal immigration, Christian anti-logic says to solve the problem, make it easier for people to come legally into the country to work. Offer hospitality to the undocumented workers who are already here and to those who will come under easier immigration rules. We ought to welcome them as brother and sister citizens.

The Bible teaches us to welcome the stranger because we ought to remember our own history, to remember when we were the strangers in the land. If we look deeply enough into our own histories, we will see when our ancestors were strangers in the land. When I consider my own family's history, I see the futility of an inhospitable response to the stranger. My parents moved to East St. Louis, Illinois, in the early 1950s. It was an era when jobs were plentiful. One could arrive in the morning and have a job by the end of the day. My father said he decided to move north because he could not tolerate living in the Jim Crow South where segregation was enforced by law.

However, if we look deeper into the history of East St. Louis, we see one of the bloodiest racial conflicts in the history of the United States, the race riots of 1917. In the early years of the 20th century, many cities around the nation experienced racial violence when European-Americans attacked African-American communities. The summer of 1919 is known as Red Summer because of the bloodshed.

One reason for the violence was competition for jobs. Employers often hired African-Americans from the South to break strikes. They often recruited them to work for lower wages. The question for me is: what would have happened had European-Americans welcomed African-Americans into the labor unions? What would have happened had they extended hospitality rather than violence?

History does not reveal its alternatives, but my guess is that race relations in the country would be very different. Cities would look very different. Knowing my own history, I say: welcome the stranger. Yes -- they are not citizens of the United States as were African-Americans moving north during the Great Migration. However, they are human beings acting on the same human impulse to go where they can make a better life.

Dr. Valerie Elverton Dixon is an independent scholar who publishes lectures and essays at JustPeaceTheory.com. She received her Ph.D. in religion and society from Temple University and taught Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary and Andover Newton Theological School.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: SamHamilton

05-27-2010 @ 10:03pm

I'm not sure which specific question you're referring to, but if it's my original question, then yes, I think it is a question worth posing to ourselves. Many people on this blog continually tell others that it is their Christian duty to accept and welcome any number of immigrants into their communities regardless of the consequences to their community of doing so. And if they don't accept this duty, they're often accused of bigotry and xenophobia. And I asked, would those same people say the same thing to non-western communities or non-American communities that were being forced to absorb large populations of westerners or Americans. Christianity is not a western religion with admonitions meant only for us. It's a universal faith, something that God meant for all humans. I think it's a legitimate question.

by: SamHamilton

05-27-2010 @ 10:03pm

I'm not sure which specific question you're referring to, but if it's my original question, then yes, I think it is a question worth posing to ourselves. Many people on this blog continually tell others that it is their Christian duty to accept and welcome any number of immigrants into their communities regardless of the consequences to their community of doing so. And if they don't accept this duty, they're often accused of bigotry and xenophobia. And I asked, would those same people say the same thing to non-western communities or non-American communities that were being forced to absorb large populations of westerners or Americans. Christianity is not a western religion with admonitions meant only for us. It's a universal faith, something that God meant for all humans. I think it's a legitimate question.

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

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by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2010 @ 4:10am

And another libertarian voice about immigration and the immorality of the Arizona law. L. Neil Smith writes:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle570-20100516...

Some relevant excerpts: "There are problems, however. To begin with, as I have explained, the federal law itself is morally wrong. On previous occasions, I have said the only excuse for national borders is to act like bulkheads in a ship, to close off portions of the hull that have succumbed to the cold, dark waters of tyranny from those still warmed by the light of liberty. The authoritarian excesses of the past four administrations have turned that one-time function of the border into a sick, ugly joke.

Part of the reason that the new law passed is that the problems associated with illegal immigration have been deliberately conflated with problems caused by the insanity of drug prohibition. Repeal the drug laws, and the shooting war on the border will stop like turning a faucet.

"

by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2010 @ 4:10am

And another libertarian voice about immigration and the immorality of the Arizona law. L. Neil Smith writes:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle570-20100516...

Some relevant excerpts: "There are problems, however. To begin with, as I have explained, the federal law itself is morally wrong. On previous occasions, I have said the only excuse for national borders is to act like bulkheads in a ship, to close off portions of the hull that have succumbed to the cold, dark waters of tyranny from those still warmed by the light of liberty. The authoritarian excesses of the past four administrations have turned that one-time function of the border into a sick, ugly joke.

Part of the reason that the new law passed is that the problems associated with illegal immigration have been deliberately conflated with problems caused by the insanity of drug prohibition. Repeal the drug laws, and the shooting war on the border will stop like turning a faucet.

"

by: Nick Altieri

05-21-2010 @ 4:56pm

It seems that there are two Christian movements in this country, one that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and one that is based more in the Old Testament.
I have always said that the teachings of Jesus trump the rest of the Bible. Sermon(s) on the Mount are my guide.
If the FRC claims that I am not a a 'real' Christian then I might suggest that they are misguided.

by: Becky Swanson

05-21-2010 @ 5:31pm

There may indeed be two movements that call themselves Christian but it's not a OT/NT division between them.

The OT is full of God's commands to treat the stranger well, to take care of the orphan and the widows and that those are not just personal commands but expected of the community/nation as a whole. There are not two different messages between the Old and New Testaments.

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by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

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by: Pan

08-11-2011 @ 2:12am

Test...

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by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

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by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: Nick Altieri

05-21-2010 @ 4:56pm

It seems that there are two Christian movements in this country, one that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and one that is based more in the Old Testament.
I have always said that the teachings of Jesus trump the rest of the Bible. Sermon(s) on the Mount are my guide.
If the FRC claims that I am not a a 'real' Christian then I might suggest that they are misguided.

by: Becky Swanson

05-21-2010 @ 5:31pm

There may indeed be two movements that call themselves Christian but it's not a OT/NT division between them.

The OT is full of God's commands to treat the stranger well, to take care of the orphan and the widows and that those are not just personal commands but expected of the community/nation as a whole. There are not two different messages between the Old and New Testaments.

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by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: SamHamilton

05-22-2010 @ 11:36am

In a way, yes. Except much of that was done violently, while the situation I describe doesn't involve violence.

But yes, one could ask my question of Native Americans. If the Europeans and eventual Americans hadn't used violence as a means of taking land from the Native Americans, but simply overrun their culture and society through sheer numbers and cultural domination, would today's Christians have preached the same message of accepting the alien into your midst?

by: myfanwy

05-22-2010 @ 11:13am

As a marketing and political organization, perhaps Focus On the Family/Family Research Council is "successful." Christian leaders? I don't think so.

I try to follow Christ's example--I'm not in the least interested in what FOTF has to say. Even their research is suspect.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: BluegrassRiver

05-21-2010 @ 4:05pm

Focus On the Family/Family REsearch Council's Tony Perkins announced today a long diatribe about immigration and Arizona. As you know, they are the largest marketing and political organization in Chrisitanity by far. The point they made was that Obama, liberals, and Democrats don't care much about all the U.S. citizens that are being tortured, sodomized, burned, and limbs hacked off by illegal Mexicans. He postulated that Obama doesn't care much about this country and the President of Mexico is our enemy. His choice of words is very strong.

Does Christianity accurately reflect these successful Christian leaders at FRC? They say if you don't agree with them you may not be thinking like a Christian.

by: Nick Altieri

05-21-2010 @ 4:56pm

It seems that there are two Christian movements in this country, one that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and one that is based more in the Old Testament.
I have always said that the teachings of Jesus trump the rest of the Bible. Sermon(s) on the Mount are my guide.
If the FRC claims that I am not a a 'real' Christian then I might suggest that they are misguided.

by: Nick Altieri

05-21-2010 @ 4:56pm

It seems that there are two Christian movements in this country, one that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and one that is based more in the Old Testament.
I have always said that the teachings of Jesus trump the rest of the Bible. Sermon(s) on the Mount are my guide.
If the FRC claims that I am not a a 'real' Christian then I might suggest that they are misguided.

by: Becky Swanson

05-21-2010 @ 5:31pm

There may indeed be two movements that call themselves Christian but it's not a OT/NT division between them.

The OT is full of God's commands to treat the stranger well, to take care of the orphan and the widows and that those are not just personal commands but expected of the community/nation as a whole. There are not two different messages between the Old and New Testaments.

by: Becky Swanson

05-21-2010 @ 5:31pm

There may indeed be two movements that call themselves Christian but it's not a OT/NT division between them.

The OT is full of God's commands to treat the stranger well, to take care of the orphan and the widows and that those are not just personal commands but expected of the community/nation as a whole. There are not two different messages between the Old and New Testaments.

by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

by: csack

05-21-2010 @ 5:35pm

i'm confused then, because the part in the Bible about welcoming the stranger is from the Old Testament. so we should forget that part?

by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: alberto83

05-21-2010 @ 7:56pm

The "Anti-Logic" is thinking that the United States, a secular institution, would enact positions consistent with a particular religious faith.

by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: Ngchen

05-21-2010 @ 8:57pm

It's high time that the radicals from Family Research Council get called out for what they are doing. For one thing, they speak for a minority of people, and I doubt they're really the largest "marketing and political organization in Christianity by far." If they really are, then we're all in trouble.

As Jim Wallis noted several years ago, an excessive devotion to country is a form of idolatry. (FWIW, an excessive devotion to this world can also be a form of idolatry, which is something the left should keep in mind.)

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: PiperJM

05-21-2010 @ 9:41pm

Thank you for sharing your family's story, I really like your framework of "anti-logic". It help express a point of view I have around a choice we make : accepting the scarcity model promoted by powerful people (ie you must fight your neighbor for scraps or you won't get anything) versus believing in abundance through solidarity (ie I join with my neighbor to struggle together for what is just and for what we both need). Thank you.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:07pm

Do you have a link to the text or audio of what Perkins said? I get the sense this isn't an entirely complete characterization of what he said. Maybe I'm wrong.

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: SamHamilton

05-21-2010 @ 10:09pm

I agree that Christianity is, at times, anti-logic. It's certainly anti-how the world usually works. It is true, the Bible tells us to be welcoming to the alien or stranger in our midst. Jesus says to love our neighbor as ourselves. The question still remains, what kind of national immigration policy would reflect these Biblical admonitions?

Should anyone who sets foot in the United States be allowed to stay as long as they like? Is there a limit to the number of immigrants a country can accept without being accused of being inhospitable to its neighbors and violating Biblical admonitions?

I'd also ask people to think about a hypothetical

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: hillbilly66

05-22-2010 @ 12:05am

I think that your next to last paragraph accurately depicted what we did to the Native Americans.

by: myfanwy

05-22-2010 @ 11:13am

As a marketing and political organization, perhaps Focus On the Family/Family Research Council is "successful." Christian leaders? I don't think so.

I try to follow Christ's example--I'm not in the least interested in what FOTF has to say. Even their research is suspect.

by: myfanwy

05-22-2010 @ 11:13am

As a marketing and political organization, perhaps Focus On the Family/Family Research Council is "successful." Christian leaders? I don't think so.

I try to follow Christ's example--I'm not in the least interested in what FOTF has to say. Even their research is suspect.

by: myfanwy

05-22-2010 @ 11:13am

As a marketing and political organization, perhaps Focus On the Family/Family Research Council is "successful." Christian leaders? I don't think so.

I try to follow Christ's example--I'm not in the least interested in what FOTF has to say. Even their research is suspect.

by: SamHamilton

05-22-2010 @ 11:36am

In a way, yes. Except much of that was done violently, while the situation I describe doesn't involve violence.

But yes, one could ask my question of Native Americans. If the Europeans and eventual Americans hadn't used violence as a means of taking land from the Native Americans, but simply overrun their culture and society through sheer numbers and cultural domination, would today's Christians have preached the same message of accepting the alien into your midst?

by: SamHamilton

05-22-2010 @ 11:36am

In a way, yes. Except much of that was done violently, while the situation I describe doesn't involve violence.

But yes, one could ask my question of Native Americans. If the Europeans and eventual Americans hadn't used violence as a means of taking land from the Native Americans, but simply overrun their culture and society through sheer numbers and cultural domination, would today's Christians have preached the same message of accepting the alien into your midst?

by: SamHamilton

05-22-2010 @ 11:36am

In a way, yes. Except much of that was done violently, while the situation I describe doesn't involve violence.

But yes, one could ask my question of Native Americans. If the Europeans and eventual Americans hadn't used violence as a means of taking land from the Native Americans, but simply overrun their culture and society through sheer numbers and cultural domination, would today's Christians have preached the same message of accepting the alien into your midst?

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2010 @ 4:10am

And another libertarian voice about immigration and the immorality of the Arizona law. L. Neil Smith writes:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle570-20100516...

Some relevant excerpts: "There are problems, however. To begin with, as I have explained, the federal law itself is morally wrong. On previous occasions, I have said the only excuse for national borders is to act like bulkheads in a ship, to close off portions of the hull that have succumbed to the cold, dark waters of tyranny from those still warmed by the light of liberty. The authoritarian excesses of the past four administrations have turned that one-time function of the border into a sick, ugly joke.

Part of the reason that the new law passed is that the problems associated with illegal immigration have been deliberately conflated with problems caused by the insanity of drug prohibition. Repeal the drug laws, and the shooting war on the border will stop like turning a faucet.

"

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2010 @ 4:10am

And another libertarian voice about immigration and the immorality of the Arizona law. L. Neil Smith writes:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle570-20100516...

Some relevant excerpts: "There are problems, however. To begin with, as I have explained, the federal law itself is morally wrong. On previous occasions, I have said the only excuse for national borders is to act like bulkheads in a ship, to close off portions of the hull that have succumbed to the cold, dark waters of tyranny from those still warmed by the light of liberty. The authoritarian excesses of the past four administrations have turned that one-time function of the border into a sick, ugly joke.

Part of the reason that the new law passed is that the problems associated with illegal immigration have been deliberately conflated with problems caused by the insanity of drug prohibition. Repeal the drug laws, and the shooting war on the border will stop like turning a faucet.

"

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2010 @ 4:10am

And another libertarian voice about immigration and the immorality of the Arizona law. L. Neil Smith writes:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle570-20100516...

Some relevant excerpts: "There are problems, however. To begin with, as I have explained, the federal law itself is morally wrong. On previous occasions, I have said the only excuse for national borders is to act like bulkheads in a ship, to close off portions of the hull that have succumbed to the cold, dark waters of tyranny from those still warmed by the light of liberty. The authoritarian excesses of the past four administrations have turned that one-time function of the border into a sick, ugly joke.

Part of the reason that the new law passed is that the problems associated with illegal immigration have been deliberately conflated with problems caused by the insanity of drug prohibition. Repeal the drug laws, and the shooting war on the border will stop like turning a faucet.

"

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: BlueDeacon

05-26-2010 @ 6:12pm

Is that even a question that the Christian should ask? Part of the problem with Western Christians is that we have become so culture-bound in our own right that anything that threatens our hegemony, which means we've become part of the "world system" we're supposed to fight against.

by: SamHamilton

05-27-2010 @ 10:03pm

I'm not sure which specific question you're referring to, but if it's my original question, then yes, I think it is a question worth posing to ourselves. Many people on this blog continually tell others that it is their Christian duty to accept and welcome any number of immigrants into their communities regardless of the consequences to their community of doing so. And if they don't accept this duty, they're often accused of bigotry and xenophobia. And I asked, would those same people say the same thing to non-western communities or non-American communities that were being forced to absorb large populations of westerners or Americans. Christianity is not a western religion with admonitions meant only for us. It's a universal faith, something that God meant for all humans. I think it's a legitimate question.

by: SamHamilton

05-27-2010 @ 10:03pm

I'm not sure which specific question you're referring to, but if it's my original question, then yes, I think it is a question worth posing to ourselves. Many people on this blog continually tell others that it is their Christian duty to accept and welcome any number of immigrants into their communities regardless of the consequences to their community of doing so. And if they don't accept this duty, they're often accused of bigotry and xenophobia. And I asked, would those same people say the same thing to non-western communities or non-American communities that were being forced to absorb large populations of westerners or Americans. Christianity is not a western religion with admonitions meant only for us. It's a universal faith, something that God meant for all humans. I think it's a legitimate question.

by: SamHamilton

05-27-2010 @ 10:03pm

I'm not sure which specific question you're referring to, but if it's my original question, then yes, I think it is a question worth posing to ourselves. Many people on this blog continually tell others that it is their Christian duty to accept and welcome any number of immigrants into their communities regardless of the consequences to their community of doing so. And if they don't accept this duty, they're often accused of bigotry and xenophobia. And I asked, would those same people say the same thing to non-western communities or non-American communities that were being forced to absorb large populations of westerners or Americans. Christianity is not a western religion with admonitions meant only for us. It's a universal faith, something that God meant for all humans. I think it's a legitimate question.

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

by: debsaid

05-29-2010 @ 11:46pm

I loved SamHamilton's point, and I think the culture issue is a legit concern. Just look at the OT: sure, the Israelites were to welcome strangers in their midst, but were they to allow change to their way of life and adopt the stranger's culture? Or was the stranger to adapt?
I'm all for immigration (being an immigrant myself), but I strongly believe that it is the immigrant's duty to adapt to his/her host country, and not the other way around. If you are a guest, you respect your host's rules and way of doing things. Is that not right?

by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

by: dlholl

05-30-2010 @ 7:56pm

Christians from the old and new testaments are commanded to obey the law of the land. This is what is so troubling about this immigration issue. Of course, we are to help the stranger, but I believe that we won't be able to do anything in a country that doesn't stand on its own laws. The U.S. has the most lax immigration laws of any country in the world and that is now getting us into great trouble. We should be putting our churches to work on helping the immigrant come through the right door, and have a working (agricultural) mission on the Mexican side to aid those that are deported. We don't need immigration reform, we need to obey the laws that are written, and take up the cross in their countries to help them become self-sufficient with a democratic governing system.

by: Treasure Hunters Roadshow

05-13-2011 @ 7:28am

this was great...

[..]fantastic![..]...