Quitting Church: An Interview with Julia Duin

Thank you all for your supportive comments. It's good to know there are others who also can't abide the superficial, phoney or "we've got all the answers and everyone else is wrong" Christianity all around us.

Blue Deacon -- I hope to have your good fortune and find a church where diversity is the rule. I am an artist at heart and love diversity. I always think the opposite of diversity is living with all your own relatives all the time -- a sort of perpetual family gathering, which in my case would be totally predictably boring. Everyone is just too polite to talk about anything interesting. I just figure I can't learn much from someone who is just like me.

c...scholar --Sometimes I think God calls upon us to be the rebel, the squeaky wheel and those well-behaving folks will be horrified. But it might get people thinking and keep the complacent from becoming hopelessly apathetic.
I had an amazing experience of someone who was very vocal about hating me for a perceived insult. I considered this person to be a little nuts . I live in a large metropolitan area and one of my favorite charities is a small, obscure rescue organization of about 150 people. My sworn enemy turned out to be one of those. I am convinced the Lord put us in such proximity for a reason. We are now good friends and work together on various projects. Maybe it's because we fouind there was something in front of us that was more important than what was in the past. But I wouldn''t have believed it 10 years ago.

liberalinlove -- the story of your neighbors is awful and probably way too common. I have heard stories of people who have left their church because when they were in need, their church was not there to help. There are young women here who have turned to Islam because when they were in need, it was the Muslim women who came to thier aid. They seem to have a stronger emphasis on helping others than do Christians. Wasn't it Ghandi who said something like the world would be a wonderful place if only Christians would act more like Christ.
I've had the experience of being kicked while I was down by an old friend who took great pride in being a "good Christian". Makes you wonder what it takes to be a bad Christian. At the same time, the person who extended Christian charity to me has no ties to anything Christian and would be offended if called a Christian.

So many lessons we learn from these experiences. We have to look past the superficial, past what people say and look at what they do. And being a Christian is about how you deal with the world and not about reciting the right words at the right time.
I have adopted the habit of saying at least a short prayer every morning, if nothing else, that the Lord help me to be helpful. And sometimes it's hard to do. I have ended up lending money to someone with a poor track record for handling money. But I figure He wouldn't have put me in the position to do that if He wasn't covering my back. I have befriended people I would have shunned a few years ago. It was very rewarding when I realized that befriending someone actually helped someone straighten out their life.

Thanks for the coffee. Let us never be so polite that we cease to be truthful.

Thank you all for your supportive comments. It's good to know there are others who also can't abide the superficial, phoney or "we've got all the answers and everyone else is wrong" Christianity all around us.

Blue Deacon -- I hope to have your good fortune and find a church where diversity is the rule. I am an artist at heart and love diversity. I always think the opposite of diversity is living with all your own relatives all the time -- a sort of perpetual family gathering, which in my case would be totally predictably boring. Everyone is just too polite to talk about anything interesting. I just figure I can't learn much from someone who is just like me.

c...scholar --Sometimes I think God calls upon us to be the rebel, the squeaky wheel and those well-behaving folks will be horrified. But it might get people thinking and keep the complacent from becoming hopelessly apathetic.
I had an amazing experience of someone who was very vocal about hating me for a perceived insult. I considered this person to be a little nuts . I live in a large metropolitan area and one of my favorite charities is a small, obscure rescue organization of about 150 people. My sworn enemy turned out to be one of those. I am convinced the Lord put us in such proximity for a reason. We are now good friends and work together on various projects. Maybe it's because we fouind there was something in front of us that was more important than what was in the past. But I wouldn''t have believed it 10 years ago.

liberalinlove -- the story of your neighbors is awful and probably way too common. I have heard stories of people who have left their church because when they were in need, their church was not there to help. There are young women here who have turned to Islam because when they were in need, it was the Muslim women who came to thier aid. They seem to have a stronger emphasis on helping others than do Christians. Wasn't it Ghandi who said something like the world would be a wonderful place if only Christians would act more like Christ.
I've had the experience of being kicked while I was down by an old friend who took great pride in being a "good Christian". Makes you wonder what it takes to be a bad Christian. At the same time, the person who extended Christian charity to me has no ties to anything Christian and would be offended if called a Christian.

So many lessons we learn from these experiences. We have to look past the superficial, past what people say and look at what they do. And being a Christian is about how you deal with the world and not about reciting the right words at the right time.
I have adopted the habit of saying at least a short prayer every morning, if nothing else, that the Lord help me to be helpful. And sometimes it's hard to do. I have ended up lending money to someone with a poor track record for handling money. But I figure He wouldn't have put me in the position to do that if He wasn't covering my back. I have befriended people I would have shunned a few years ago. It was very rewarding when I realized that befriending someone actually helped someone straighten out their life.

Thanks for the coffee. Let us never be so polite that we cease to be truthful.

The position of Judgement is already filled and no opening are expected...Thanks.

Your comment about saying at least a short prayer every morning got me thinking...I believe it is Anne LaMott who says she has two basic prayers:

"Help me! Help me! Help me!"

and:

"Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!"

Many, many days, those are my prayers, too :).

So true. Seems if we spent more time walking with each other through their challenges and less time judging, we would be closer to the church God likely intends.

Biblical Judging
Matthew 7:1-6

Introduction

Dear Linda,
My dad is an ordained minister. I grew up in the church. I had to leave it to get saved. The reason is, I never thought I was a good person in the church. I thought that going to church would save me. Church participation and ministry became my God. I couldn't hear God's voice because I was too busy fulfilling the pastor's idea of what God wanted for me. It has taken me a lifetime to expunge the message of what a worm I am, and truly accept the Grace God extends towards me. No works, free and without condemnations.

I think you have it backwards. It is the cross, not church attendance that saves. By the way, church attendance like you are discussing is a relatively new phenomenon. Jesus wasn't Methodist, or Seventh Day Adventist, or Pentecostal. He celebrated His faith as a Hebrew going to temple. He promised a day would come where we would worship in spirit and in truth. That is what we hold ourselves accountable to.

People leaving the chuch I think happens because the church appears artificial to them in many ways.
I believe often it is caused by life, the church appears to be more out of the center of the person's life . They have problems , anxiety , sadness, their friends , real friends are not going to their church .
We really need , I really need to learn to love the folks in our church.

Linda I would recommend perhaps this is the kind of conversation a person should have in private with another.

Linda I would recommend perhaps this is the kind of conversation a person should have in private with another.

As one of the "foremerly churched, now unchurched", I can offer some light on this subject. There are many reasons why people leave the established church but I suspect there is a rather broad general pattern.
I grew up in the Presbyterian church, which my parents chose because it was just two blocks from home. At least that's the story. I stopped going to church while in college. I considered myself to be a believer and generally pretty good person. Then I got into big trouble. I turned to God, partly prompted by my early church teaching and partly a result of being drawn to some of the TV evangelists I happened upon. I dumped it all on God and put Him in charge of my life. It was truly a "born again" experience. It changed my life and the way I look at things. I knew I had been kidding myself about being a "good person". I sought to find out what I needed to do to live the way God wanted me too.
I knew it required complete honesty with myself, with others and in all things. That was very hard. I started looking for a church, a minister,a priest to help me. I found that God was perfectly capable of leading me Himself. I have now what I consider a very strong and healthy sense of God in my life. I am much less judgmental of others and try to live doing what is right instead of thinking about what others are doing wrong. We are all in different places on our journey. What others need from us is compassion and sometime4s an example of doing right.
Once in the early part of my journey, I came home from a store and found that the cashier had failed to charge me for a five dollar item. I sent the store a check for $5 and explained that it was not the cashier's fault. It was at that time about keeping my pledge of total honesty. I didn't realize what an impact that had on the people in that store until I received a phone call from the manager. It was an embarrassing situation for me. I thought they would probably just figure me for some kind of nut-job or perhaps a repentent shop-lifter. But they took it in the spirit of one person just doing the right thing. There is no doubt in my mind this was one of many God-lessons.

I have tried to find a church where I could fellowship with people of similar experiences and journies. I worhsip God every day. I don't need a certain building for that. I learn about God every day by examining the world He put me in. I have become wary of those who claim to be God-fearing-church-goers, yet speak too much of hatred, intolerance, ritualistic observances and the material world. Some churches seem to be more of a style show and I don't have the wardrobe for that. Others are more like the minister as teacher and the congregation as second-grade students. And there are those who think they have all the answers. If you just follow thier rules and accept thier idealogy, you will become a member. As if we could ever even come close to having all the answers about God's world!

So I am happily unchurched and I figure if and when God wants me to find a church, He will make it pretty clear to me. He has not failed me yet. If not for Him, I am quite sure I would either be dead or living under a bridge.

The bottom line -- people leave chruch because they are not finding a strong spiritual connection to God there.Maybe that is partly due to our reluctance to share our deepest feelings and put on an act for others that we think makes it look like we have it all together. Maybe we hope we can take a short-cut by going to church and going throuigh the motions rather than by making a life-changing surrender to God's will.

Her comment about taking her child to church so she can have a break is a sure sign of selfishness, she admits to it but does not seem too bothered by it.

I am concerned for her or anybody else that goes to church for the wrong reasons, because this indicates they are unregenerate.

So you do not care that she might still be lost in her sins???

Ultimately she needs to examine her faith to see if it is real, she knows herself much better than I can ever know. I am just bringing up the issue she may not be even saved, and she should be concerned about it. If you want to label me as "judgemental" feel free to - true love for a person does not hide any concerns they may have for a person.

In Christ,
Linda

"Her comment about taking her child to church so she can have a break is a sure sign of selfishness"

Maybe if we heard the audio, there would be laughter that might indicate the comment was said in jest. We don't even have the full story in context of tone and body language, much less a whole lot of information from the post. So what more evidence do you have to indicate this woman's soul is in trouble?

But the truth is, we have the words themselves which tell us this is only part of the issue--she said it was both for her child's spiritual formation and for hers as well.

In fact, many churches use child care as a means of luring folks in the door in the first place. So, hey, it works! So what are you complaining about anyway? If she needs to be saved, then isn't it great she is going to church? Even if her motives don't quite meet your specifications? Do you have a motive check at the door of your church? "Oops--you are just here for the coffee. Sorry. Go home and watch the infomercials about P90X and Dyson vacuum cleaners with their proper amount of suction. Would it be better for her to just go to the park on Sundays instead?

I'm thinking of an appropriate expression that describes your comments...something about mountains and molehills...

"Ultimately she needs to examine her faith to see if it is real"

And you do not know whether or not she has done that. And, frankly, I don't know whether or not you have done that, either. Why should I assume you have? Because you tell me so? Why should I believe you? What if I said, "Linda, you need to repent so you can see people through Jesus' eyes. Then you will understand salvation." True statements, right? But how does it feel to be told that? Chances are you would feel I had judged you. Which might be one thing if I actually knew you and your situation, but I don't. So do I have the right to do that?

"she knows herself much better than I can ever know"

Exactly. So stopping commenting as if you know her.

"I am just bringing up the issue she may not be even saved, and she should be concerned about it."

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to make that call. Or do you have the ability to read into a person's heart?

"Her comment about taking her child to church so she can have a break is a sure sign of selfishness"

Maybe if we heard the audio, there would be laughter that might indicate the comment was said in jest. We don't even have the full story in context of tone and body language, much less a whole lot of information from the post. So what more evidence do you have to indicate this woman's soul is in trouble?

But the truth is, we have the words themselves which tell us this is only part of the issue--she said it was both for her child's spiritual formation and for hers as well.

In fact, many churches use child care as a means of luring folks in the door in the first place. So, hey, it works! So what are you complaining about anyway? If she needs to be saved, then isn't it great she is going to church? Even if her motives don't quite meet your specifications? Do you have a motive check at the door of your church? "Oops--you are just here for the coffee. Sorry. Go home and watch the infomercials about P90X and Dyson vacuum cleaners with their proper amount of suction. Would it be better for her to just go to the park on Sundays instead?

I'm thinking of an appropriate expression that describes your comments...something about mountains and molehills...

"Ultimately she needs to examine her faith to see if it is real"

And you do not know whether or not she has done that. And, frankly, I don't know whether or not you have done that, either. Why should I assume you have? Because you tell me so? Why should I believe you? What if I said, "Linda, you need to repent so you can see people through Jesus' eyes. Then you will understand salvation." True statements, right? But how does it feel to be told that? Chances are you would feel I had judged you. Which might be one thing if I actually knew you and your situation, but I don't. So do I have the right to do that?

"she knows herself much better than I can ever know"

Exactly. So stopping commenting as if you know her.

"I am just bringing up the issue she may not be even saved, and she should be concerned about it."

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to make that call. Or do you have the ability to read into a person's heart?

I would say the majority of churches in America are full of unregenerate pastors and members, and therefore do not proclaim the whole counsel of God and should be avoided.

There was a time in my walk when I would have said the same thing. Between the ages of 18 and about 35, in fact.

Then I became exposed to a much wider array of Christians from denominations I had deemed as "lost." And as I observed their lives and quiet commitment to Christ, I began to understand the falsehoods in such attitudes. And I repented.

But this is the way of denominationalism. We look down our noses at other denominations because they surely don't have "The Truth."

Look. This is our job: preach Christ crucified and risen and His salvation and grace to us, and be light and salt in this world.

It is not our job to judge the hearts and motives of others. We are all on a faith journey. Best to recognize that and play our role in helping each other move forward as we journey together, rather than becoming stumbling blocks to each other. Judgmental attitudes repel rather than draw people to Jesus. Which is why He didn't display it (except to those who thought they had it all together).

There was a time in my walk when I would have said the same thing. Between the ages of 18 and about 35, in fact.

Then I became exposed to a much wider array of Christians from denominations I had deemed as "lost." And as I observed their lives and quiet commitment to Christ, I began to understand the falsehoods in such attitudes. And I repented.

But this is the way of denominationalism. We look down our noses at other denominations because they surely don't have "The Truth."

Look. This is our job: preach Christ crucified and risen and His salvation and grace to us, and be light and salt in this world.

It is not our job to judge the hearts and motives of others. We are all on a faith journey. Best to recognize that and play our role in helping each other move forward as we journey together, rather than becoming stumbling blocks to each other. Judgmental attitudes repel rather than draw people to Jesus. Which is why He didn't display it (except to those who thought they had it all together).

I spent most of my life in church until about 10 years ago. (I'm 63, so that's a lot of time in the pews.) Then we had a family crisis, and the church was abusive. Very abusive. I left. Attended several other churches, but was more and more discouraged by gossip, pettiness (hymns or praise songs? Should coffee be permitted in the fellowship hall?), and so often the pettiness degenerated into backbiting and real mean-spiritedness. A lot of judgmentallism, especially on the part of self-proclaimed "leaders". Endless services that were so mind-numbing that I felt I must be in purgatory: come be bored in the name of the Lord! It all felt so disconnected from the daily dependence on God and prayer of my life away from church. I thought, so what's the point? I can read the Bible in my living room.

And now I'm back in church, because I've come to believe that the institutional church is necessary, rather like God's embassy in a fallen world. Because I grew up in church, I knew where to find God when I realized I needed Him! The church I'm attending now seems unusually short on judgmentalism and long on servant-hearts, which is a big plus. But the main thing is, I think I should be supporting the Lord's embassy.

I spent most of my life in church until about 10 years ago. (I'm 63, so that's a lot of time in the pews.) Then we had a family crisis, and the church was abusive. Very abusive. I left. Attended several other churches, but was more and more discouraged by gossip, pettiness (hymns or praise songs? Should coffee be permitted in the fellowship hall?), and so often the pettiness degenerated into backbiting and real mean-spiritedness. A lot of judgmentallism, especially on the part of self-proclaimed "leaders". Endless services that were so mind-numbing that I felt I must be in purgatory: come be bored in the name of the Lord! It all felt so disconnected from the daily dependence on God and prayer of my life away from church. I thought, so what's the point? I can read the Bible in my living room.

And now I'm back in church, because I've come to believe that the institutional church is necessary, rather like God's embassy in a fallen world. Because I grew up in church, I knew where to find God when I realized I needed Him! The church I'm attending now seems unusually short on judgmentalism and long on servant-hearts, which is a big plus. But the main thing is, I think I should be supporting the Lord's embassy.

How can anyone leave "church" when they are part of a living breathing body of believers, for which Christ is the cornerstone and the head. I may have left organized religious experiences, but I never left the church. I still have fellowship, teaching, places to minister and to be ministered to, and corporate worship may be as fun as singing in my shower. The church building does not define Church for me anymore. My relationship with a living Savior as shepherd of my soul is ever growing and maturing. He leads beside the still waters, and He feeds me with good pasture.

So true. Seems if we spent more time walking with each other through their challenges and less time judging, we would be closer to the church God likely intends.

You may want to buy the book! I think that is why there was an interview. The reasons people leave the church may be better answered in the book and not her interview in this post.

Biblical Judging
Matthew 7:1-6

Introduction

Dear Linda,
My dad is an ordained minister. I grew up in the church. I had to leave it to get saved. The reason is, I never thought I was a good person in the church. I thought that going to church would save me. Church participation and ministry became my God. I couldn't hear God's voice because I was too busy fulfilling the pastor's idea of what God wanted for me. It has taken me a lifetime to expunge the message of what a worm I am, and truly accept the Grace God extends towards me. No works, free and without condemnations.

I think you have it backwards. It is the cross, not church attendance that saves. By the way, church attendance like you are discussing is a relatively new phenomenon. Jesus wasn't Methodist, or Seventh Day Adventist, or Pentecostal. He celebrated His faith as a Hebrew going to temple. He promised a day would come where we would worship in spirit and in truth. That is what we hold ourselves accountable to.