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Forgiveness, Fear, and the Mosque at Ground Zero

I've become used to seeing images of protests on the news recently. While a few years ago these were displayed as sure signs of anti-American sentiments, they are now a mainstay on the nightly news. Hardly a day goes by without seeing some sign calling Obama a Muslim socialist or demanding that the government not take away Medicare in order to pay for socialized heath care. But it was seriously disturbing to see the images from New York City yesterday of the protest of the Muslim center going in two blocks from the site of Ground Zero. The planned center is being built in an old Burlington Coat Factory building and will include a fitness center, community meeting rooms, and a mosque. Basically it's the neighborhood YMCA with that weird contemporary church plant meeting in the yoga room on Saturday nights. But it's Muslim and therefore has drawn out the haters.

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The organization Stop Islamization of America, a self-proclaimed human rights group, organized the protest on Sunday. This group's mission is to ensure the preservation of freedom of speech against Islamic supremacist intimidation and attempts to make the United States compliant with Shari'a [Islamic law]. After reading about this group and seeing some of the photos Samir Selmanovic posted from the event as he stood in solidarity with Muslims (including the one here), I couldn't help but reflect on the tendency in this country for us to fear and hate the other.

It is an odd balance, American's strike between forgiveness and hate. On one hand we become obsessed with stories of extreme forgiveness. The Amish women who chose to forgive and love the families of the man who killed their children so captured our attention the story was even turned into a movie. We prize such extreme acts of love almost to the point of fetishizing them, and yet when the offenders are too different from us we cling to our hatred. I remember listening to my grandfather's tales of World War II and first realizing this strange tension between forgiveness and prejudice. He fought on the German front as a naval officer, he was part of the D-Day invasion, ferried Patton across the Rhine River, and had his best friend blown away in the foxhole next to him. Year later, as a man of German descent himself, he had easily forgiven the Germans for the war and yet still spoke with extreme contempt about the Japanese. Forgiving those like us is easy; extending mercy to those who are other is where our fear often strangles our compassion.

This fear of the other prevents us from seeing the world clearly. Our belief in our own rightness clouds how we see the other. During my time at Wheaton College there was much debate about changing the school's mascot from that of Crusader. While it was eventually changed to the Wheaton Thunder, many people could not understand why there was any reason to change it at all. They thought it was preposterous that any person (especially Muslims and Jews) would be offended by the image or judge modern day Christians by the past actions of historical Crusaders. Yet, even in the church we daily judge Muslims by the actions of a few of its members. So while we applaud the Amish women for their acts of forgiveness, the fear and hatred sparked by the events of 9/11 still inform the average American's opinion of Muslims. So to the protesters, the building of a Muslim center and mosque so near the site of Ground Zero is just another act of violence -- a threat to American supremacy. There is no forgiveness of the terrorists and the grudge against them is extended to all Muslims.

I, like many of the Muslims involved, understand the need to tread carefully here. Even in working for peace and reconciliation one has to be aware of how one's actions might offend people who have been previously hurt. This is why Wheaton eventually did change its mascot, out of a desire to promote love and healing instead of reopening old wounds. But it is pure fear of the other that is sparking some to say just having Muslims near Ground Zero is offensive. It is heartbreaking knowing that many of the protesters are there claiming to represent Jesus while they scream their message of hate. This isn't just about protesting political ideas but a demonstration of our bondage to sin. The images of the protest hurt as they mock everything the faith I follow claims to uphold. As I wait to see how this current drama unfolds, I can't help but wonder what it will take for American Christians to move from just fetishizing forgiveness to actually letting mercy and compassion for all rule our hearts.

Julie Clawson is the author of Everyday Justice: The Global Impact of Our Daily Choices (IVP 2009). She blogs at julieclawson.com and emergingwomen.us.

+ Click here for a study and discussion guide on Christians and Islam.

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by: Ankaboot

08-13-2010 @ 1:38pm

I will concede the brouhaha, but, brouhaha aside there is real hurt.

With all due consideration and respect, you haven't a clue about how much we've all been hurt, profoundly, and not just by 9/11. Seriously. If it all became apparent to you in one minute, you'd go insane. I'm so looking forward to dying that I have to put myself in check constantly to make sure I don't work at it.

Let me set up an analogous situation to try to explain this hurt.

I understand more deeply and personally than you might imagine.

But following along with your analogy, suppose that the woman had been blindfolded and bound and was made to think it was a man, but it was actually another species of creature entirely, not human at all, that was planning to come around again, and you knew all that.

What might you consider doing for her?

Take your time and make yourself imagine what I've described, you can do it.

by: Ankaboot

08-25-2010 @ 1:30am

I chose the ONLY God.

Well stated.

I can't keep up with eleven conversation threads, so I'll be posting for a while in Jim Wallis' thread on "American Muslims Are Not Responsible for 9/11" and on from there as long as the threads touch on Islam or Islam in America.

Or I wear out my welcome, whichever happens first.

Thank everyone for an enjoyable conversation. Several, in fact.

by: Ankaboot

08-13-2010 @ 1:38pm

I will concede the brouhaha, but, brouhaha aside there is real hurt.

With all due consideration and respect, you haven't a clue about how much we've all been hurt, profoundly, and not just by 9/11. Seriously. If it all became apparent to you in one minute, you'd go insane. I'm so looking forward to dying that I have to put myself in check constantly to make sure I don't work at it.

Let me set up an analogous situation to try to explain this hurt.

I understand more deeply and personally than you might imagine.

But following along with your analogy, suppose that the woman had been blindfolded and bound and was made to think it was a man, but it was actually another species of creature entirely, not human at all, that was planning to come around again, and you knew all that.

What might you consider doing for her?

Take your time and make yourself imagine what I've described, you can do it.

by: Ankaboot

08-25-2010 @ 1:30am

I chose the ONLY God.

Well stated.

I can't keep up with eleven conversation threads, so I'll be posting for a while in Jim Wallis' thread on "American Muslims Are Not Responsible for 9/11" and on from there as long as the threads touch on Islam or Islam in America.

Or I wear out my welcome, whichever happens first.

Thank everyone for an enjoyable conversation. Several, in fact.

by: Ankaboot

08-10-2010 @ 9:16pm

Would you agree that it is only for God to decide on what grounds His
forgiveness is to be given?

Absolutely. We believe that He has told us, in plain, clear, and
explicit terms, what those grounds are, have always been, and will
always be. There are two kinds of "forgiveness," and varying
prerequisites depending on what one needs to have forgiven. All of it
is clarified.

The Holy Bible says that the forgiveness of sin is only granted by
the blood of Christ.

Okay. We don't believe it says that. Sacrificial atonement was an
invention of the rabbis denounced by the prophets long before Jesus
arrived, and Jesus changed nothing of the Law but denounced the false
tradition of the pharisees ~ which included that.

Then why does the Quran state clearly that Jesus is not God?

Because it's one of those things that needs to be stated with no
ambiguity whatsoever and no possibility of "interpretation," leaving
nothing to the imagination or any "mystery."

by: Melvin_H_Fox

08-25-2010 @ 12:52am

I will clarify: You are free to worship a false god if you desire to worship any god other than the One True Living God, Jesus Christ, if you want to. You do this at your peril. Do not take this as any sort of threat from me or any other Christian. For the judgment day will come of God Himself.

I am curious; do any of the Christians reading this blog deny these truths of which I speak?

-Mel

by: Ankaboot

08-10-2010 @ 9:16pm

Would you agree that it is only for God to decide on what grounds His
forgiveness is to be given?

Absolutely. We believe that He has told us, in plain, clear, and
explicit terms, what those grounds are, have always been, and will
always be. There are two kinds of "forgiveness," and varying
prerequisites depending on what one needs to have forgiven. All of it
is clarified.

The Holy Bible says that the forgiveness of sin is only granted by
the blood of Christ.

Okay. We don't believe it says that. Sacrificial atonement was an
invention of the rabbis denounced by the prophets long before Jesus
arrived, and Jesus changed nothing of the Law but denounced the false
tradition of the pharisees ~ which included that.

Then why does the Quran state clearly that Jesus is not God?

Because it's one of those things that needs to be stated with no
ambiguity whatsoever and no possibility of "interpretation," leaving
nothing to the imagination or any "mystery."

by: Melvin_H_Fox

08-25-2010 @ 12:52am

I will clarify: You are free to worship a false god if you desire to worship any god other than the One True Living God, Jesus Christ, if you want to. You do this at your peril. Do not take this as any sort of threat from me or any other Christian. For the judgment day will come of God Himself.

I am curious; do any of the Christians reading this blog deny these truths of which I speak?

-Mel

by: Melvin_H_Fox

08-11-2010 @ 1:48pm

Then why does the Quran state clearly that Jesus is not God?

"Because it's one of those things that needs to be stated with no
ambiguity whatsoever and no possibility of "interpretation," leaving
nothing to the imagination or any "mystery.""

This is exactly why I can accept Islam as no other thing than worship of a false god. Anyone who knows Jesus as God will not be condemned. Anyone who has not believed in the Son of God stands condemned already because of their unbelief. [John 3] Talk about your clearly stated facts and leaving no room for interpretation.

-Mel

by: deaconesselizabeth

06-11-2010 @ 5:10pm

I didn't include the website for St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church. Look at the picture of what was there before Sept. 11, 2001. It still is not rebuilt. Christians can talk about personal theology, but if there is no gathering of Christians, there is no church. And it is impossible in this climate to gather in the winter without a building. Build a church that was destroyed before you support the building of something else.
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/

by: deaconesselizabeth

06-11-2010 @ 5:10pm

I didn't include the website for St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church. Look at the picture of what was there before Sept. 11, 2001. It still is not rebuilt. Christians can talk about personal theology, but if there is no gathering of Christians, there is no church. And it is impossible in this climate to gather in the winter without a building. Build a church that was destroyed before you support the building of something else.
http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/

by: xsartre

08-20-2010 @ 10:07am

I can't get your link to work - did you mean http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2010/08/15/groun... ?

In which case, this image makes the same point: http://i36.tinypic.com/i4ochh.jpg

by: Ask

07-12-2010 @ 5:31pm

Dominus tecum, soror.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "the other," a deceitful term coined by the late Edward Said. The symbolism is clear to any who studies Islamic history. A mosque by Ground Zero is a symbol of victory over conquered non-Muslims. Made even more so by the name: Cordoba House. Cordoba was the seat of power for centuries of Islamic occupation of Spain (look up al-Andalus).

3,000 people were murdered by the sons of Muhammed on 9/11, who were fulfilling their duty of jihad. A mosque by the final resting place of many of the innocents is a declaration of victory by the Ishmaelites.

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: xsartre

08-20-2010 @ 10:07am

I can't get your link to work - did you mean http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2010/08/15/groun... ?

In which case, this image makes the same point: http://i36.tinypic.com/i4ochh.jpg

by: Ankaboot

08-11-2010 @ 5:22pm

"Then why does the Quran state clearly that Jesus is not God?"

Because it's one of those things that needs to be stated with no
ambiguity whatsoever and no possibility of "interpretation," leaving nothing to the imagination or any "mystery."

This is exactly why I can accept Islam as no other thing than worship of a false god. Anyone who knows Jesus as God will not be condemned. Anyone who has not believed in the Son of God stands condemned already because of their unbelief. [John 3] Talk about your clearly stated facts and leaving no room for interpretation.

This is exactly why there are three tents of Shem: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and another abode, and others, and "many mansions" in His House.

Please read "The Straight Path to God", written thirty years ago and never since revised. It discusses man's relationship to faith, does not "make everything equal," has no "pronouncements" that anyone needs to "believe" in order to be "saved," and may have some understanding of why so many people believe so many different things. Your faith is what God has given you to "know," and others have been given other things to know.

It is not given to me to believe that Jesus is God. Period. I've never believed it, and don't. That's half of the coin. The other half of that coin is that I am absolutely certain that Jesus is not God, and nothing you could say or do could make me doubt that in the slightest.

I do not believe what you believe, and you do not believe what I believe; and I will not believe what you believe, and you do not believe what I believe. You have your conviction, I have mine.

That's the way God has arranged our lives. To you, that means that in the next life you will be in heaven and I won't. That does not in the least bother me, scare me, or begin to persuade me that you are some kind of irredeemable evil person.

I've received the Good News that Jesus announced to the nations. I am absolutely certain that I know that Good News in its entirety, and there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that it is true and complete: I testify that Jesus and the faithful of Israel fulfilled the Promise of Israel made freely to God at Sinai, to announce to the nations the Good News of the coming, next, after him, of the Kingdom of God.

Every muslim testifies to this. Someone who denies it cannot be muslim.

Apart from that, it appears that we are given different things to know. That's why we're two communities and not one.

But we are both in His House of Abraham, by faith, not by blood, and by His Grace.

Now I think that if you will look in the Bible, in the first five books of the Old Testament, you'll find that it says the same thing ~ that all of the families of the earth will be blessed in Abraham.

You might consider that.

by: Ask

07-12-2010 @ 5:31pm

Dominus tecum, soror.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "the other," a deceitful term coined by the late Edward Said. The symbolism is clear to any who studies Islamic history. A mosque by Ground Zero is a symbol of victory over conquered non-Muslims. Made even more so by the name: Cordoba House. Cordoba was the seat of power for centuries of Islamic occupation of Spain (look up al-Andalus).

3,000 people were murdered by the sons of Muhammed on 9/11, who were fulfilling their duty of jihad. A mosque by the final resting place of many of the innocents is a declaration of victory by the Ishmaelites.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: deaconesselizabeth

06-11-2010 @ 5:14pm

I cannot understand why so few people realize that St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, New York, NY once stood next to the Trade Center, and was crushed on Sept. 11, 2001. Go to their website and look at the picture. St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is still not rebuilt. There is no church without a gathering of Christians, and buildings are needed in cold climates. Love your enemies, but first rebuild that church.

by: xsartre

08-18-2010 @ 3:31am

Punishment of all muslims because of the actions of a tiny evil group, who were arrogant enough to declare that they acted in the name of 1.5 billion people, smacks of collective punishment on a much larger scale than that practised by a certain German dictator in WW2.

I remember the horror of that awful day. I also remember the many muslims who approached me - a newcomer to Islam - shortly afterwards to make it very clear that they found the 9/11 attacks repugnant. They completely disassociated themselves and their religion from them.

Our small community, which had been going about its business quietly in a small suburban town outside London, suddenly began living in fear of 'reprisals'. Windows were broken in the building we prayed in. Some of the men took turns to sleep there at night. Not for one moment did any of us imagine that those who were terrorising us had anything to do with the local Christian community.

But you know what? Our imam went to the local Christian churches and started a series of exchanges between our communities, where we learned about each other. We went to their church services, they came to our prayers. Afterwards we talked to one another about what we had in common; and what we didn't. Although this exchange might have taken place in any case, it was expedited by the urgency of the post 9/11 situation. Maybe, God willing, in time the positive effects of that day may come to outweigh the negative ones. As the Qur'an says: "They plan and God plans, and God is the best of planners".

The perpetrators of 9/11 may have wanted to force the Islamic world into a confrontation with America. Their act was a political one, not a religious one, as shown by the targets they chose. But, by opposing outreach initiatives from the American muslim community; by attempting to limit their rights to congregate and worship lawfully; opponents of the Cordoba Initiative are doing the terrorists' bidding and becoming unwitting accomplices of the nineteen people who kickstarted this whole dreadful situation.

Is that really what they intend?

by: deaconesselizabeth

06-11-2010 @ 5:14pm

I cannot understand why so few people realize that St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, New York, NY once stood next to the Trade Center, and was crushed on Sept. 11, 2001. Go to their website and look at the picture. St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is still not rebuilt. There is no church without a gathering of Christians, and buildings are needed in cold climates. Love your enemies, but first rebuild that church.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: xsartre

08-18-2010 @ 3:31am

Punishment of all muslims because of the actions of a tiny evil group, who were arrogant enough to declare that they acted in the name of 1.5 billion people, smacks of collective punishment on a much larger scale than that practised by a certain German dictator in WW2.

I remember the horror of that awful day. I also remember the many muslims who approached me - a newcomer to Islam - shortly afterwards to make it very clear that they found the 9/11 attacks repugnant. They completely disassociated themselves and their religion from them.

Our small community, which had been going about its business quietly in a small suburban town outside London, suddenly began living in fear of 'reprisals'. Windows were broken in the building we prayed in. Some of the men took turns to sleep there at night. Not for one moment did any of us imagine that those who were terrorising us had anything to do with the local Christian community.

But you know what? Our imam went to the local Christian churches and started a series of exchanges between our communities, where we learned about each other. We went to their church services, they came to our prayers. Afterwards we talked to one another about what we had in common; and what we didn't. Although this exchange might have taken place in any case, it was expedited by the urgency of the post 9/11 situation. Maybe, God willing, in time the positive effects of that day may come to outweigh the negative ones. As the Qur'an says: "They plan and God plans, and God is the best of planners".

The perpetrators of 9/11 may have wanted to force the Islamic world into a confrontation with America. Their act was a political one, not a religious one, as shown by the targets they chose. But, by opposing outreach initiatives from the American muslim community; by attempting to limit their rights to congregate and worship lawfully; opponents of the Cordoba Initiative are doing the terrorists' bidding and becoming unwitting accomplices of the nineteen people who kickstarted this whole dreadful situation.

Is that really what they intend?

by: deaconesselizabeth

06-11-2010 @ 5:14pm

I cannot understand why so few people realize that St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, New York, NY once stood next to the Trade Center, and was crushed on Sept. 11, 2001. Go to their website and look at the picture. St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is still not rebuilt. There is no church without a gathering of Christians, and buildings are needed in cold climates. Love your enemies, but first rebuild that church.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 10:15pm

"Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start. "

No I don't . I live out on the west coast. Basically those religious Muslims I know are on a friendly but casual chit chat basis. I work at a Ferry Dock.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:44pm

I like the idea of the mosque donating money to the victims of 9/11! That would build trust. If I were a Muslim, living on the Muslim side of the bridge, I might advocate for that. Since I am a Christian, living on the Jesus follower side of the bridge, what might I do to build trust?

Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start.

by: Ankaboot

08-20-2010 @ 11:43am

Try going here and looking at it on that thread, where an "attached files" thumbnail opens a copy of the original.

It appears that the graphic has been removed from the original website host. But your link does get the same graphic from the same host, so I don't know why the link doesn't work.

And your graphic does make the same point, even better.

by: Ankaboot

08-20-2010 @ 11:43am

Try going here and looking at it on that thread, where an "attached files" thumbnail opens a copy of the original.

It appears that the graphic has been removed from the original website host. But your link does get the same graphic from the same host, so I don't know why the link doesn't work.

And your graphic does make the same point, even better.

by: dansmith10003

07-17-2010 @ 1:33am

Cordoba House is NOT A MOSQUE that is media invention ... & right wing fantasy... liberals buy into this right wing rhetoric way too easily... realize that places like Heritage Foundation only exist to fool u like this... check out the official statement of Cordoba Institute (play on video) http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

by: Ankaboot

03-18-2011 @ 11:11pm

Peace to you all:

I, a muslim, am being accused of lying about Jesus by two of Sojo's Christian guests ~ "Greg Dill" and "WitheringHeights." In this discussion, they are saying that I have written in these forums things about Jesus that are false according to Scripture (which they apparently have not read). I have asked that anyone bring forth anything I have written about Jesus at Sojo that contradicts Scripture, several times, and in the week or so since I made that request, no one has brought forth anything of that character, let alone the two accusers.

God damns those who lie about Jesus. This is true according to both Christianity and Islam. Lying about Jesus is Denial according to Islam, or deliberate falsification of the truth (although usually translated simply as "unbelief"), and is termed "blasphemy" or "infidelity" in Christianity. Lying about the Messiah is a crime punishable by stoning in the Torah. An accusation of lying about Jesus is a curse. I am being cursed by two people in that conversation who say they are Christians.

So I'll ask again, of all who read this: please bring forth anything I have written about Jesus that is not true according to Biblical Scripture, and post it in that conversation. And should anyone wish to contradict the accusers, I would certainly appreciate that as well.

I did not come here to become an object of controversy, although I knew it was possible despite the "Comment Code of Conduct" by which commenters agree to avoid slandering others. This, in my view, is false slander of the worst sort possible in these forums. I'm not personally offended or disturbed by it, and although the topic of the discussion ~ ironically ~ is "An Apology to My Muslim Friends, by Lynne Hybels," I have no wish for any "apology" from anyone for anything that anyone may do, Christian, Denier, or otherwise. But I don't think that these accusations and curses are what the members of Sojo's on-line community have in mind for these discussion threads.

Thank you, and may God return to you the best of what you do.

~~ Ankaboot,

Shaykh al-Hajj Dawud Ahmad al-Amriki al-Qadiri
hajj@muslimamerica.net (509) 258-9031
Muslim America, Springdale, Washington

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: NMRod

06-10-2010 @ 3:20am

Yeah, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that religion is mostly a construct to allow for the hardening of conscience that allows people to feel good about the evil done to other tribes.

That's where my born-again journey has ended up, thanks to my co-religionists and pastors.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-10-2010 @ 11:43am

I learned a long time ago that the Only Real Shepherd we have is Jesus. Pastors, bishops or grand fu bars or whatever a hierarch is called are only sheep dogs and many of those have long ago forgotten why they are there. In the words of that wonderful Simon and Garfunkel song Bleaker Street "they hide the Shepherd from the Sheep"! The "church" has been a harlot and has gleefully slept with big money, racism, nationalism, you name the prostitution and she has been in the bed with it and why she we be surprised at that, after all the Enemy can appear as an angel of light! She has forgotten the words of her Beloved "if you seek to save your life you will lose it!" and man has she lost it! If you want to know where the authentic church is look to the poor, the elderly, the powerless, the hungry, the outcast and the prisoner there you will find the Church of Jesus Christ.

by: Cheez Doodle

08-17-2010 @ 3:32am

I agree that it is being built in an inappropriate area of the city. It's like that Crusader mascot that Julie was talking about being offensive. Doesn't the Muslim community see that building a Mosque/Community Center so close to what was destroyed by extremists is offensive to us. I know that things like this just prove what kind of days we are in and at the same time its scary that America is turning away from God its exciting because it means we are going home soon. That being said we need to really watch what we do because you may be the only Jesus that anyone sees. Teach the Gospel to as many as are willing to hear. The last days are upon us. GOOD is EVIL and EVIL is GOOD. Only in America do we call killing a baby a choice, Sexual Perversion an Alternative Lifestyle, Keeping Christianity to yourself a freedom of religion. Just remember be what ever you want just don't be a Christian!!!

by: Ankaboot

08-17-2010 @ 5:40am

I cannot understand why so few people realize that St. Nicholas Greek
Orthodox Church, New York, NY once stood next to the Trade Center, and
was crushed on Sept. 11, 2001. Go to their website and look at the
picture. St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is still not rebuilt.
There is no church without a gathering of Christians, and buildings are
needed in cold climates. Love your enemies, but first rebuild that
church.

Set up a PayPal account to collect funds for rebuilding St. Nicholas and
I'll put a page on the Muslim America website as a mirror of whatever
page you put on the Web to invite contributions. Then I'll send a link
to my page to the major muslim newsgroups, forums, and mailing lists.
In return you can let people know how many muslims send contributions.

Or you can wait for your government grant, but that may take a while ...

by: Ankaboot

08-12-2010 @ 2:28pm

I am sorry Ankaboot; but your entire post is non-sense.

No need to apologize, I appreciate your candor. Thank you.

by: xsartre

08-17-2010 @ 5:17am

WHY upset people by building on that site and naming it after the great mosque of Cordoba?

For what it's worth, here is what Cordoba represents to me, as someone who came to Islam from a Christian background. Cordoba was at the time of the muslim occupation of Spain the largest and most advanced city in the world. Its streets were lit at night, long before electricity. It was a fertile meeting ground for religious scholars and intellectuals from all over Europe, who came to share in the treasure trove of knowledge from the ancient world and from the Arab world, all of which was being made available in Arabic, the lingua franca of the time. It was an open society where interaction took place between muslims, Christians and Jews. I have never read anywhere, nor heard any muslim say, that it established some sort of superiority of the Arabs over the Europeans, or of the muslims over the Christians and Jews. There is and was no triumphalism.

I challenge you to show that Cordoba represents, to a muslim, anything other than a dream of religious pluralism, peace and cultural exchange between us and all those of good will. You can browse muslim websites - there are many that mention Cordoba - and see where this "hidden agenda" might be.

If what you say were true, these people would understand the pain and offense they are unnecessarily creating and move the site at least 2 miles away. The fact that they are knowingly causing violence and strife is proof that they have an agenda that has nothing to do with being "friends".

So muslims can only be "friends" if they know their place? Rebuilding their community centre is uppity behaviour? Seems to me America has been through that before.

They are already showing the face of Islam that most Americans are familiar with - agressive, offensive and disrespectful - ready to provoke violence and bloodshed, which is what this building will do.

Well you're familiar with some things and unfamiliar with others because you are not relying on your personal experiences or on anything approaching a comprehensive analysis. You absorb what your own media presents to you and imagine that it is the whole of the truth. It is often untrue, and even when it is true it is rarely the complete truth.

Was the behaviour of American soldiers at Abu Ghraib or at Guantanamo "agressive, offensive and disrespectul"?

Let's be objective here. Just pure numbers. Do you think that muslim nations (or nominal muslim nations) have started more wars and killed more people not of their own faith than (nominally) Christian nations in the last 10 years, 50 years, 100 years? Did you know that any numerical analysis of terrorism has concluded that the majority of terrorist incidents are perpetrated by Christians, not muslims? Why do we not label Christians as "ready to provoke violence and bloodshed"?

Would you call area bombing of a residental neighbourhood with phosphorus bombs and depleted uranium "terrorism"?

You will excuse the "aggressive" tone of my reply. Self-defence is allowable under both of our belief systems. Jesus, may peace be upon him, did not mince his words in the New Testament. His speech to the scribes and Pharisees still sends a shiver down my spine.

by: Melvin_H_Fox

08-12-2010 @ 1:52pm

I am sorry Ankaboot; but your entire post is non-sense.

Of course my mind could be convinced that Jesus is not God. That is why I must keep short accounts in prayer and the reading of His word. I remain vulnerable to deception.

You on the other hand could, at any moment, be visited by the true Holy Spirit of God Almighty. Do you think that Paul was less entrenched in his belief that Jesus was not God than you just one day before his conversion? Non-sense.

You honestly maintain that the fact that by Abraham's faith all nations will be blessed implies that those who don't accept the gift of Christ's redemptive work on the cross will be received by the Father? Non-sense.

Many mansions? Yes! Many Kingdoms? No! If my King is Jesus Christ, and He is my King, and Jesus is not God, then he is not King and I will not be permitted in the Kingdom of God. If Jesus is God, then He is the King of the Kingdom of God. What you or I believe about Jesus has no impact on that reality. You believe that you can enter the Kingdom and not recognize the King as King. Non-sense.

You have rejected the Good News that Jesus clearly announced. Yet, you believe there will be no eternal consequence should that announcement be true. Non-sense.

-Mel

by: xsartre

08-17-2010 @ 4:46am

Doesn't the Muslim community see that building a Mosque/Community Center so close to what was destroyed by extremists is offensive to us.

And who is "us"? Are American muslims not included in that word "us" too? Muslims died in the WTC on 9/11. The people who perpetrated that atrocity were not muslim in any real sense.

That community centre that you mention was there long ago, before 9/11. It has every right to stay there, or else your Constitution is a lie and your country is built upon a lie.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: Ankaboot

08-17-2010 @ 5:54am

Doesn't the Muslim community see that building a Mosque/Community
Center so close to what was destroyed by extremists is offensive to us.

Sure we do. We also know that you shouldn't be offended.

Do you know what Christians do that we find offensive?

I didn't think so ...

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: Ankaboot

08-17-2010 @ 6:04am

I know that things like this just prove what kind of days we are in and at the same time its scary that America is turning away from God its exciting because it means we are going home soon.

You watch too much television and don't spend enough time getting to know your neighbors. Americans are turning back to God, not away. You just won't see much of it in the mainstream media.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 10:15pm

"Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start. "

No I don't . I live out on the west coast. Basically those religious Muslims I know are on a friendly but casual chit chat basis. I work at a Ferry Dock.

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by: teller

06-08-2010 @ 3:16pm

Tonight I am to tell the Bible story to the kids at Bible school. It is from Matthew 8; the story of the foreign occupying soldier (centurion) who asked Jesus to heal his servant. This despised foreign soldier is considered a hero of faith. I pray that we today can hear the call to see others as people, loved by God. Matthew told this story of Jesus to the early church which was by then being persecuted by the empire which the soldier represented. I believe that Jesus meant what he said in Matthew's chapters 5, 6, and 7.

by: teller

06-08-2010 @ 3:16pm

Tonight I am to tell the Bible story to the kids at Bible school. It is from Matthew 8; the story of the foreign occupying soldier (centurion) who asked Jesus to heal his servant. This despised foreign soldier is considered a hero of faith. I pray that we today can hear the call to see others as people, loved by God. Matthew told this story of Jesus to the early church which was by then being persecuted by the empire which the soldier represented. I believe that Jesus meant what he said in Matthew's chapters 5, 6, and 7.

by: teller

06-08-2010 @ 3:16pm

Tonight I am to tell the Bible story to the kids at Bible school. It is from Matthew 8; the story of the foreign occupying soldier (centurion) who asked Jesus to heal his servant. This despised foreign soldier is considered a hero of faith. I pray that we today can hear the call to see others as people, loved by God. Matthew told this story of Jesus to the early church which was by then being persecuted by the empire which the soldier represented. I believe that Jesus meant what he said in Matthew's chapters 5, 6, and 7.

by: AbelDC

06-08-2010 @ 8:23pm

To answer your question, you can't.

As for the rest of what you said, I find it an ironic way of proving the articles point. You are so afraid of the chance of them destroying who you are that you are willing to do it for them so you can get rid of them.

by: AbelDC

06-08-2010 @ 8:23pm

To answer your question, you can't.

As for the rest of what you said, I find it an ironic way of proving the articles point. You are so afraid of the chance of them destroying who you are that you are willing to do it for them so you can get rid of them.

by: AbelDC

06-08-2010 @ 8:23pm

To answer your question, you can't.

As for the rest of what you said, I find it an ironic way of proving the articles point. You are so afraid of the chance of them destroying who you are that you are willing to do it for them so you can get rid of them.

by: duhsciple

06-08-2010 @ 8:57pm

Read Matthew 5:43-48 and Luke 6:32-36. Jesus is our Master. What is his perspective, based on these texts, on "eradicating Islam"? We will have to make a hard choice: to follow the Master or not.

by: duhsciple

06-08-2010 @ 8:57pm

Read Matthew 5:43-48 and Luke 6:32-36. Jesus is our Master. What is his perspective, based on these texts, on "eradicating Islam"? We will have to make a hard choice: to follow the Master or not.

by: duhsciple

06-08-2010 @ 8:57pm

Read Matthew 5:43-48 and Luke 6:32-36. Jesus is our Master. What is his perspective, based on these texts, on "eradicating Islam"? We will have to make a hard choice: to follow the Master or not.

by: rustys1

06-08-2010 @ 9:10pm

I agree with the premise of this article. Christians have nothing to fear in this world or the next, and forgiveness is paramount.

I just hope we keep in mind that compassion and mercy for any group of people, including Muslims, is to show them Jesus (in our lives and in the scriptures). I hope we'll find a fertile mission field two blocks from ground zero. They, like us, need the gospel.

by: rustys1

06-08-2010 @ 9:10pm

I agree with the premise of this article. Christians have nothing to fear in this world or the next, and forgiveness is paramount.

I just hope we keep in mind that compassion and mercy for any group of people, including Muslims, is to show them Jesus (in our lives and in the scriptures). I hope we'll find a fertile mission field two blocks from ground zero. They, like us, need the gospel.

by: rustys1

06-08-2010 @ 9:10pm

I agree with the premise of this article. Christians have nothing to fear in this world or the next, and forgiveness is paramount.

I just hope we keep in mind that compassion and mercy for any group of people, including Muslims, is to show them Jesus (in our lives and in the scriptures). I hope we'll find a fertile mission field two blocks from ground zero. They, like us, need the gospel.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:07am

Well said.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:07am

Well said.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:07am

Well said.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:09am

I am not following you ?

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:09am

I am not following you ?

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:09am

I am not following you ?

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 11:59am

Jesus, the Master, says, "It's easy to love those who love you. I'm commanding you to love your enemies." I don't see how "eradicating Islam" fulfills Christ's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. Of course, Christ's words are difficult to apply to radical Muslims. Yet, this is the very place where the words apply most. Hope this clarifies a bit.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 11:59am

Jesus, the Master, says, "It's easy to love those who love you. I'm commanding you to love your enemies." I don't see how "eradicating Islam" fulfills Christ's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. Of course, Christ's words are difficult to apply to radical Muslims. Yet, this is the very place where the words apply most. Hope this clarifies a bit.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 11:59am

Jesus, the Master, says, "It's easy to love those who love you. I'm commanding you to love your enemies." I don't see how "eradicating Islam" fulfills Christ's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. Of course, Christ's words are difficult to apply to radical Muslims. Yet, this is the very place where the words apply most. Hope this clarifies a bit.

by: squeaky

06-09-2010 @ 12:55pm

Indeed. And with Israel immersed in the occupying force of her enemies and fully aware of their capacity for evil, and yet admonished to love them, it is a very appropriate verse for us to consider.

by: squeaky

06-09-2010 @ 12:55pm

Indeed. And with Israel immersed in the occupying force of her enemies and fully aware of their capacity for evil, and yet admonished to love them, it is a very appropriate verse for us to consider.

by: squeaky

06-09-2010 @ 12:55pm

Indeed. And with Israel immersed in the occupying force of her enemies and fully aware of their capacity for evil, and yet admonished to love them, it is a very appropriate verse for us to consider.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 4:50pm

Oh, boy. This is a tough one. As believers, we are to love even our enemies, and certainly not to paint with one brush all Muslims. It is our task to love until it hurts, extend welcome and even be hurt by the act of welcoming. There has been WAY too much conflating of being-a-Christian and being-American, and it is not my task as a Christian to defend my American way of life. So, I cringe also at signs that make it appear that it is in order to defend Jesus that the protests occur. At the same time, I think the city should find a way to move this center somewhere else, for the sake of public peace. The civil authority is not Christian and doesn't have the same mandate; I can understand why this Center being built where it is proposed is too much for people - the jury is still out on who it is that is attacking our nation and people, and anxiety about that isn't irrational. For it to be built so close to a wound that is still so raw, is not wise at this time.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 4:50pm

Oh, boy. This is a tough one. As believers, we are to love even our enemies, and certainly not to paint with one brush all Muslims. It is our task to love until it hurts, extend welcome and even be hurt by the act of welcoming. There has been WAY too much conflating of being-a-Christian and being-American, and it is not my task as a Christian to defend my American way of life. So, I cringe also at signs that make it appear that it is in order to defend Jesus that the protests occur. At the same time, I think the city should find a way to move this center somewhere else, for the sake of public peace. The civil authority is not Christian and doesn't have the same mandate; I can understand why this Center being built where it is proposed is too much for people - the jury is still out on who it is that is attacking our nation and people, and anxiety about that isn't irrational. For it to be built so close to a wound that is still so raw, is not wise at this time.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 4:50pm

Oh, boy. This is a tough one. As believers, we are to love even our enemies, and certainly not to paint with one brush all Muslims. It is our task to love until it hurts, extend welcome and even be hurt by the act of welcoming. There has been WAY too much conflating of being-a-Christian and being-American, and it is not my task as a Christian to defend my American way of life. So, I cringe also at signs that make it appear that it is in order to defend Jesus that the protests occur. At the same time, I think the city should find a way to move this center somewhere else, for the sake of public peace. The civil authority is not Christian and doesn't have the same mandate; I can understand why this Center being built where it is proposed is too much for people - the jury is still out on who it is that is attacking our nation and people, and anxiety about that isn't irrational. For it to be built so close to a wound that is still so raw, is not wise at this time.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 9:02pm

Oh thank you . I see what you are saying . I bad. I was looking at it from a different angle . I think the mosque is a noble and loving gesture , or I will take it that way . But just not an appropriate one is how my thinking goes. What needs to be done I believe is build trust here, perhaps this a way of doing it . Hope I am wrong . But I think a better way would have been if this mosque perhaps donated money to the victims of 9/11 . Then down the road perhaps this location would not even have been a headline .

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-09-2010 @ 9:29pm

Islam did not kill anyone that horrific day of 9-11 extremism did. Having said that I understand why people fear anything that is Islamic because decapitations on web sites, suicide bombers, and videos calling for the streets to run red with the blood of "infidels" does not lend itself to dialogue. I would remind Christians however it was not that long ago that there was wholesale slaughter of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa. Islam has a very deep problem and that is the moderates are not heard, only the seventh century types who stone people to death among many other enlightened practices of Shira law. You do not hear of condemnation of the extremists by Moslem clergy and or scholars at least not in the press. Religion is a very dangerous thing and if the world is to survive it must disappear just like the nation state eventually must disappear. Faith will not vanish but it must replace religion and whether it is Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religious construct unless the fundamental principle of respect for others is taught, believed and practiced it is only a matter of time until another 9-11!

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:44pm

I like the idea of the mosque donating money to the victims of 9/11! That would build trust. If I were a Muslim, living on the Muslim side of the bridge, I might advocate for that. Since I am a Christian, living on the Jesus follower side of the bridge, what might I do to build trust?

Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:44pm

I like the idea of the mosque donating money to the victims of 9/11! That would build trust. If I were a Muslim, living on the Muslim side of the bridge, I might advocate for that. Since I am a Christian, living on the Jesus follower side of the bridge, what might I do to build trust?

Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:44pm

I like the idea of the mosque donating money to the victims of 9/11! That would build trust. If I were a Muslim, living on the Muslim side of the bridge, I might advocate for that. Since I am a Christian, living on the Jesus follower side of the bridge, what might I do to build trust?

Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start.

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: duhsciple

06-09-2010 @ 9:46pm

What if the Jesus following citizens got to know the Muslims hoping to build this mosque? What if the Jesus following citizens attended the mosque as guests while the Muslims attended church as guests?

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: sgillesp

06-09-2010 @ 10:06pm

sounds great - let's do it! I'm a neighbor to it. But, that's not the same thing as the city allowing them to build it there. I sincerely hope they find a way to have them build somewhere else - it will just be too much of a sore point for years.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 10:15pm

"Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start. "

No I don't . I live out on the west coast. Basically those religious Muslims I know are on a friendly but casual chit chat basis. I work at a Ferry Dock.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 10:15pm

"Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start. "

No I don't . I live out on the west coast. Basically those religious Muslims I know are on a friendly but casual chit chat basis. I work at a Ferry Dock.

by: Joel225A

06-09-2010 @ 10:15pm

"Do you know any Muslims with whom you are in conversation about this? I confess, I don't. Maybe that would be a place to start. "

No I don't . I live out on the west coast. Basically those religious Muslims I know are on a friendly but casual chit chat basis. I work at a Ferry Dock.

by: NMRod

06-10-2010 @ 3:20am

Yeah, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that religion is mostly a construct to allow for the hardening of conscience that allows people to feel good about the evil done to other tribes.

That's where my born-again journey has ended up, thanks to my co-religionists and pastors.

by: NMRod

06-10-2010 @ 3:20am

Yeah, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that religion is mostly a construct to allow for the hardening of conscience that allows people to feel good about the evil done to other tribes.

That's where my born-again journey has ended up, thanks to my co-religionists and pastors.

by: NMRod

06-10-2010 @ 3:20am

Yeah, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that religion is mostly a construct to allow for the hardening of conscience that allows people to feel good about the evil done to other tribes.

That's where my born-again journey has ended up, thanks to my co-religionists and pastors.

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-10-2010 @ 11:43am

I learned a long time ago that the Only Real Shepherd we have is Jesus. Pastors, bishops or grand fu bars or whatever a hierarch is called are only sheep dogs and many of those have long ago forgotten why they are there. In the words of that wonderful Simon and Garfunkel song Bleaker Street "they hide the Shepherd from the Sheep"! The "church" has been a harlot and has gleefully slept with big money, racism, nationalism, you name the prostitution and she has been in the bed with it and why she we be surprised at that, after all the Enemy can appear as an angel of light! She has forgotten the words of her Beloved "if you seek to save your life you will lose it!" and man has she lost it! If you want to know where the authentic church is look to the poor, the elderly, the powerless, the hungry, the outcast and the prisoner there you will find the Church of Jesus Christ.

by: fatherandrewgentry

06-10-2010 @ 11:43am

I learned a long time ago that the Only Real Shepherd we have is Jesus. Pastors, bishops or grand fu bars or whatever a hierarch is called are only sheep dogs and many of those have long ago forgotten why they are there. In the words of that wonderful Simon and Garfunkel song Bleaker Street "they hide the Shepherd from the Sheep"! The "church" has been a harlot and has gleefully slept with big money, racism, nationalism, you name the prostitution and she has been in the bed with it and why she we be surprised at that, after all the Enemy can appear as an angel of light! She has forgotten the words of her Beloved "if you seek to save your life you will lose it!" and man has she lost it! If you want to know where the authentic church is look to the poor, the elderly, the powerless, the hungry, the outcast and the prisoner there you will find the Church of Jesus Christ.