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Immigration, Children, and the Way of Jesus

100615-michelleobama-childLast month, an encounter between Michelle Obama and a Latina child in a suburban Maryland school brought into sharp relief one of the most pressing issues surrounding U.S. immigration policy: the effect that the current broken system is having -- and has had for a long time -- on the young children of immigrants.

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The second-grade girl seemed to want confirmation -- or perhaps it was refutation -- of something she'd heard her mother say: "Barack Obama is taking everybody away that doesn't have papers." In typical miss-the-main-point fashion, the media focused more on the First Lady's response (she handled the awkward situation admirably) than on the heartbreaking reality exposed by this little girl's question.

For several months I helped teach Sunday School and provide child care in a small Latino congregation in North Carolina. For the most part, the kids were like all kids everywhere -- energetic, mischievous, manipulative, full of joy. But once in awhile -- too often, as I think about it -- one of the children would reveal something of the fear that they and their families regularly experienced. They would almost always do this in a casual, disinterested sort of way -- perhaps as a defense mechanism or maybe because they'd been trained to be stoic in the face of difficulty.

Most of what these kids revealed about their stressed-out lives was that their parents lived in fear of the police. Once, an ICE agent came to the church office (where I worked and where the Latino congregation met on Sunday evenings) looking for information about the Latino pastor. The fear these families lived in was not unfounded; it was a daily burden and one that their children were learning to bear with them. (It turns out that these kids were unlike most of their Anglo peers in an important way: they were not carefree).

Arizona politicians, feeling emboldened by the positive public response to their recent actions on immigration crackdown, will soon introduce legislation that would deny birth certificates to children born in the state. The bill's sponsor, Russell Pearce, is not concerned about violating the Constitution (which grants citizenship to anyone born in the U.S.) because the greater issue, according to Pearce, is that the 14th amendment has been "hijacked" by illegal immigrants. "They use it as a wedge," Pearce says in a recent Time magazine article. "This is an orchestrated effort by them to come here and have children to gain access to the great welfare state we've created."

Facts don't seem to matter much in the current public debate about immigration, so Pearce's inflammatory rhetoric will do its intended work -- he will convince a lot of people to sign on to his "anchor baby" bill, "making the citizenship process so difficult that illegal immigrants [will] pull up anchor and leave."

Never mind that undocumented immigrants are not eligible for public aid programs like welfare, food stamps, public housing, or Medicaid. Never mind that the majority of undocumented workers have Social Security, Medicare, and income taxes deducted from their payroll (even though they are ineligible for any Social Security or Medicare benefits and for almost all of the federal and state government benefits funded by income taxes).

It seems that fear is all over this issue: immigrants living in fear, Americans living in fear. Some of the fear is justified; most of it isn't.

But for Christians who care about this issue and the people affected by it, the way of Jesus offers a way out of the fear. "Perfect love casts out all phobos" (1 John 4:18). Jesus, who as an immigrant child fled with his family from the authorities, calms our phobias about strangers by coming to us as one

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by: Ngchen

06-16-2010 @ 7:02pm

I've mentioned this point previously, but I'll mention it again. The difference between a legal and illegal immigrant is simply the existence or lack thereof of a government-issued (proverbial) stamp of approval. In terms of effects both positive and negative of immigration, I don't see a single one that legal immigration would have that illegal immigration would not have, or vice versa.

So, at some point this excessive focus on the government-issued stamp of approval reeks of legalistic thinking.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-16-2010 @ 6:44pm

I think the point that I have gotten from all of Sojourners articles relating to this issue is that we have to see the issue of immigration as more than a nameless, soulless, mob of faces. The issue of fair immigration reform (which I support) is such a challenge because we must balance humanity, dignity, respect, and sacrfifice. Whether they "pull up anchor" or are granted amnesty, does not affect or negate the way we have built several industries on the backs of domestic cheap labor. We will be answering for that in one way or another. In addition, these are people of all types and it is unfair and derogatory- nearly racist- to stereotype or lable them in one particular way. They are not all saints, nor are they all sinners. But they are all people and regardless of whether you feel you should follow or break the law, the fact remains that as a reflection of God's creation they deserve to be treated with love. I can't answer or assume my government will do it. That is why God laid the responsibility at the feet of the individual (thank you Lord) because He knows that popular politics and media may sing one tune, but we are called out to be different. Free to love everyone despite their status. We don't always have to agree but the moment we sneer, turn up our nose, or begin to disregard the person in front of us because they are somehow "less than" we are slipping away from the people God has called us to be. My heart breaks not because I necessarily disagree with the notion of deportation, but because so many people approach it with almost a self-righteous glee. It should break the heart. I think we have to realize the part we play in the desire to come here. There is a natural reaction to things. We destroy local economies overseas, come in and rescue people with our military and might, portray ourselves as a great and powerful nation of dreamers and fighters, and then act surprised people abandon their now impoverished homelands to come here. Forget the Mexican-American war. Our subsidizing of corn dealt Mexico a terrrible blow. But I move away from my point. Which is that at the heart of this are real people who love, laugh, breathe, fear, and dream. And if they follow God, then Christ has told me they are my brothers and sisters. And they deserve better....

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

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06-27-2010 @ 2:09pm

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06-27-2010 @ 2:09pm

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by: outragex

06-16-2010 @ 8:48pm

The goal of the AZ law is understandable, we need a rational immigration system. I think most Christians agree. The AZ law is mean spirited, punitive, and designed for political mileage not for truly solving the problem. It curtails religious liberty by potentially making it illegal for religious people to serve immigrants at a soup kitchen.It will waste tax dollars by encouraging frivolous lawsuits against police and govt. by putting them in a "damned if you do/don't" situation. Finally, it will likely lead to unjust harrassment of citizens who don't have ID on their person and "look like immigrants."

Finally, re. the anchor baby law-isnt it ironic that conservatives who pretend to revere the Constitution are so eager to disregard its obvious meaning in this case?

by: outragex

06-16-2010 @ 8:48pm

The goal of the AZ law is understandable, we need a rational immigration system. I think most Christians agree. The AZ law is mean spirited, punitive, and designed for political mileage not for truly solving the problem. It curtails religious liberty by potentially making it illegal for religious people to serve immigrants at a soup kitchen.It will waste tax dollars by encouraging frivolous lawsuits against police and govt. by putting them in a "damned if you do/don't" situation. Finally, it will likely lead to unjust harrassment of citizens who don't have ID on their person and "look like immigrants."

Finally, re. the anchor baby law-isnt it ironic that conservatives who pretend to revere the Constitution are so eager to disregard its obvious meaning in this case?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: charles kiker tulia

06-15-2010 @ 10:44pm

Live the way of Jesus, and welcome all aliens as neighbors, but do not expect any of the empires of this world to follow suit.

by: charles kiker tulia

06-15-2010 @ 10:44pm

Live the way of Jesus, and welcome all aliens as neighbors, but do not expect any of the empires of this world to follow suit.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:21pm

Can anyone tell me why entering the US illegally is ok?

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06-27-2010 @ 2:09pm

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http://www.sale-nfl-jerseys.com
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by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:19pm

titopoet
"They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong."
Are you telling me that it is morally wrong to have laws on entering or leaving a country, that everyone should be able to come and go as they please?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:14pm

outragex
First I would use reply but for some reason it is not loading on this computer.
Have you read the AZ law?
It is a copy of the US law. It makes it illegal to be in AZ illegally.
There would be no need of this law if the US enforced their laws. Also we would not even be talking about this if the law had been enforced for the last several years.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 11:18pm

I suggest trying firefox. Comments haven't loaded on safari for months now.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:21pm

Can anyone tell me why entering the US illegally is ok?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:21pm

Can anyone tell me why entering the US illegally is ok?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:19pm

titopoet
"They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong."
Are you telling me that it is morally wrong to have laws on entering or leaving a country, that everyone should be able to come and go as they please?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:19pm

titopoet
"They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong."
Are you telling me that it is morally wrong to have laws on entering or leaving a country, that everyone should be able to come and go as they please?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:14pm

outragex
First I would use reply but for some reason it is not loading on this computer.
Have you read the AZ law?
It is a copy of the US law. It makes it illegal to be in AZ illegally.
There would be no need of this law if the US enforced their laws. Also we would not even be talking about this if the law had been enforced for the last several years.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:14pm

outragex
First I would use reply but for some reason it is not loading on this computer.
Have you read the AZ law?
It is a copy of the US law. It makes it illegal to be in AZ illegally.
There would be no need of this law if the US enforced their laws. Also we would not even be talking about this if the law had been enforced for the last several years.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 11:18pm

I suggest trying firefox. Comments haven't loaded on safari for months now.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 11:18pm

I suggest trying firefox. Comments haven't loaded on safari for months now.

by: NMRod

06-15-2010 @ 11:20pm

In Germany, during the thirties, and in America, during the thirties, the Jew-lovers and nigger-lovers were a little confused.

A Jew or a nigger without papers was like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.

So how did the Jew-loving and nigger-loving churchgoers deside which laws it was ok to break?

by: NMRod

06-15-2010 @ 11:20pm

In Germany, during the thirties, and in America, during the thirties, the Jew-lovers and nigger-lovers were a little confused.

A Jew or a nigger without papers was like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.

So how did the Jew-loving and nigger-loving churchgoers deside which laws it was ok to break?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-15-2010 @ 10:57pm

You guys are a little confused.
An immigrant with papers is like an invited guest into your home.
An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.
So how do you as church goers deside which laws it is ok to break?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-15-2010 @ 10:57pm

You guys are a little confused.
An immigrant with papers is like an invited guest into your home.
An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.
So how do you as church goers deside which laws it is ok to break?

by: Lisa S.

06-17-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you for pointing out the presence of Christ in those who are outcast. These children, these families, are not our enemies.

When someone does something I don't like, it does not exempt me from my responsibility to love and to seek to understand. As Americans, sometimes our privilege blinds us to the desperate situations of others. I can't blame someone for seeking work where work is to be had, particularly when our system makes it nearly impossible for individuals from certain countries to come here legally.

There is certainly a problem to be mended here. However, the problem is the PROCESS, not the person. Dehumanization and hatred are not the answers.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-18-2010 @ 6:44pm

But if a law interferes with the ability to show love to another human being should it be obeyed? I'm not talking about sneaking a van load of people across the border. The consequences of this law are far reaching. If I provide tangible items-food, transportation to church, clothing, solace- etc (in the spirit of love) I am in possible violation of this law. If I express empathy and distress at the plight of these individuals, shun the term "anchor babies" and call to mind the human complexity of this situation, I am being wrong for siding with criminals... How exactly do I go about sharing the good news with them? In a way that matters? Or should the conversation begin and end with "Jesus loves you. Now get out of my country and take your babies with you." Not to sound flippant, but that is nearly what I am hearing. We should love them like Christ would- but don't offer assistance of any kind. We should tell them God loves them, but look the other way because they were not "blessed" enough to be born here. We can continue on in our lives and ignore them because they are law breakers who have brought this misery on themselves. I can't say that. I'm sorry. I am all about going through the proper channels, and peaceable protests are part of our protected processes to call out for change. To call for action.

And I do believe I am an example for others. Always. That when you love people the way Christ did-it can cost you. And lying to protect an illegal may sound shady to you, but considering some of the "hereos" of the Bible were liars (including my personal favorite immigrant hider-Rahab) I am okay with it. I don't remember Christ saying I would not know him because I lied to help others. I do remember saying about the least of these....

So my point again is this: These are people and I feel this law inteferes with my ability as a Christian to effectively love and minister. Therefore, I would not support it nor abide it should its twisted version find its way here. And if I went to jail or even die for it, I wouldn't be the first Christian to find myself in that predicament.

I would like to thank you for helping me put together and solidify my feelings on this. You are right about this. To debate here is one thing. To take action another. I am sorry if your family feels slighted by the actions of illegal immigrants. I can only imagine the frustration. And the context of my word "hard" was more like "complicated". I pray for you sister in law that her citizenship comes through as well.

And to answer your question: While the law of America may frown on your actions, if I caught you breaking in my house to feed your family, I would cook you guys dinner.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-18-2010 @ 6:44pm

But if a law interferes with the ability to show love to another human being should it be obeyed? I'm not talking about sneaking a van load of people across the border. The consequences of this law are far reaching. If I provide tangible items-food, transportation to church, clothing, solace- etc (in the spirit of love) I am in possible violation of this law. If I express empathy and distress at the plight of these individuals, shun the term "anchor babies" and call to mind the human complexity of this situation, I am being wrong for siding with criminals... How exactly do I go about sharing the good news with them? In a way that matters? Or should the conversation begin and end with "Jesus loves you. Now get out of my country and take your babies with you." Not to sound flippant, but that is nearly what I am hearing. We should love them like Christ would- but don't offer assistance of any kind. We should tell them God loves them, but look the other way because they were not "blessed" enough to be born here. We can continue on in our lives and ignore them because they are law breakers who have brought this misery on themselves. I can't say that. I'm sorry. I am all about going through the proper channels, and peaceable protests are part of our protected processes to call out for change. To call for action.

And I do believe I am an example for others. Always. That when you love people the way Christ did-it can cost you. And lying to protect an illegal may sound shady to you, but considering some of the "hereos" of the Bible were liars (including my personal favorite immigrant hider-Rahab) I am okay with it. I don't remember Christ saying I would not know him because I lied to help others. I do remember saying about the least of these....

So my point again is this: These are people and I feel this law inteferes with my ability as a Christian to effectively love and minister. Therefore, I would not support it nor abide it should its twisted version find its way here. And if I went to jail or even die for it, I wouldn't be the first Christian to find myself in that predicament.

I would like to thank you for helping me put together and solidify my feelings on this. You are right about this. To debate here is one thing. To take action another. I am sorry if your family feels slighted by the actions of illegal immigrants. I can only imagine the frustration. And the context of my word "hard" was more like "complicated". I pray for you sister in law that her citizenship comes through as well.

And to answer your question: While the law of America may frown on your actions, if I caught you breaking in my house to feed your family, I would cook you guys dinner.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-17-2010 @ 7:20pm

Ken:
Maybe I was unclear in what I am trying to say. I'm not implying that the illegal immigrants from Mexico are the only real people. That would be an odd thing to believe. My point is that they ARE people. We can get so caught up in rhetoric based in laws, fears, opinion, etc that we can actually dehumanize an entire race or culture with our words. The scary part is that it is the first step. The next is to dehumanize them with our actions.

My point is that when we merely refer to them as "illegals" they become a thing. They are no longer a person. We have to remember that as Christians-even if not as an American- we have to first love the person. Always. I'm saying the "illegal status" needs to be reformed, but I have always been apprehensive of any agenda that pushes me towards an "us" v. "them" attitude. Simply because I never saw Christ behave in that way.
You seem to have alot of very strong, researched, and passionate views on this. I hope you can step back for just a moment and see that I am not saying we should have no system. That we should not fix a broken problem. That we should not have a better process in place. What I am saying is that we have to collectively realize that by our active participation or chosen indifference, we have allowed this to go on for some time. And with a knee jerk over zealous response we can do alot of damage.

And in response to your other comments... I am all about breaking any law that does not allow me to fullfill the two basic commandments. Of course, I see it more as a peaceful passive resistance. More sit-ins than car bombs, if you know what i mean. To criticize that kind of resistance-that type of protest- is to criticize some of the most beautiful and powerful movements in american history-namely the civil rights and suffrage movements. So yes, I do think there are moment when we can peacefully, rationally, and with much love choose not to obey a law.

Also, the path to legal status is one that is very difficult and expensive. I have personally walked through this process with a close friend, and it was a lot of money, forms, and ultimately a huge wait in a broken system. It is not as simple as getting our drivers license. There are programs and ideas, like the DREAM act, that seek to simplify the process for those who are wanting to become citizens. I love that type of legislation and wish we could come up with more ideas like that.
And lastly, to perhaps best understand my point of view, I need to explain my idea of citizenship. I love America. I honestly do, and it is from that place I challenge and call out. I expect the best from my country and actually believe in the ideals it preaches so I expect it to walk the walk. And yet, I understand that this country is not my home. Derek Webb wrote a beautiful song that says "My first allegiance is not a flag, a country or a man. My first allegiance is not democracy or blood. it is to a King and Kingdom." No matter what America chooses to do or not do, I can live above that and operate outside of it because there should be no law against love and peace. I drive the speed limit, pay my taxes, and obey all kinds of civil laws. But I would not, and if it comes to my state, I will not obey the law. And if that means I go to jail, so be it. It's all just temporary except for how we love God and others. Everything else is just protecting idols and vanity...

by: Lisa S.

06-17-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you for pointing out the presence of Christ in those who are outcast. These children, these families, are not our enemies.

When someone does something I don't like, it does not exempt me from my responsibility to love and to seek to understand. As Americans, sometimes our privilege blinds us to the desperate situations of others. I can't blame someone for seeking work where work is to be had, particularly when our system makes it nearly impossible for individuals from certain countries to come here legally.

There is certainly a problem to be mended here. However, the problem is the PROCESS, not the person. Dehumanization and hatred are not the answers.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-17-2010 @ 9:37pm

I know about how hard it it is to become a citizen. It is not hard. Getting here is hard. My wife is from another country. I have gotten two of her sisters here and am working on getting another one here. My wife, has been here 40 years and is a citizen. One of her sisters has been here almost 20 years and is a citizen along with her two daughters. The other sister has been here about 15 years and is not a citizen yet.
It is telling everyone like them who came here the right way that they are fools. They could have crossed the border in the night and not had to mess with the system. One of my neices wants to come for a visit. They will not give her a visa because they say she does not have enough things at home to indicate that she will not over stay her visa.
If you want to help the people of Mexico you would help them to be able to make a better life in Mexico,
Your idea of not following the law does not come from Christ. You can not find anywhere he broke the law or was for breaking the law. You can not even find where Christ was for civil disobedience.
If you think times are harder now than then you might want to check history.
You are right we are not really citizens of this world. The King, Christ, said that he did not come to set up a kingdom on this earth.
The job given to Christians is to spread the good news. This includes loving people but not trying to right every thing you see as a wrong by breaking the law. When you decide that you have the right to pick and choose which law to obey you put yourself above all laws.
The only laws that you as a christian should break is one that would not permit you to follow Christ's teachings.
The law in AZ is no different than the US law. Read it and see.
"
The heart of the law is this provision: "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:05am

"They had not moved into your house. "

Ummm....big problem with uninvited guests moving into people's homes in Arizona and S. CA, is there?

by: Lisa S.

06-17-2010 @ 2:30pm

Thank you for pointing out the presence of Christ in those who are outcast. These children, these families, are not our enemies.

When someone does something I don't like, it does not exempt me from my responsibility to love and to seek to understand. As Americans, sometimes our privilege blinds us to the desperate situations of others. I can't blame someone for seeking work where work is to be had, particularly when our system makes it nearly impossible for individuals from certain countries to come here legally.

There is certainly a problem to be mended here. However, the problem is the PROCESS, not the person. Dehumanization and hatred are not the answers.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:01am

"An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking."

Yeah, except many of them WERE invited in--by the U.S. businesses that want to hire them.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:01am

"An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking."

Yeah, except many of them WERE invited in--by the U.S. businesses that want to hire them.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 2:26am

You are confused and talking about something entirely different.
The Jews and Negro in you case were discriminated against because of their race. They had not moved into your house.
The people being called An immigrant, who does not have papers broke the law to get here. Therefore they have moved into your house without an invitation.
If you believe they should be here, why don't you give one of them your house and job to show us you realy believe.
If a church goer claims to be a follower of the Bible there is only one kind of law you should break. That would be any law preventing you from following the Bible.
An immigrant without papers does not qualify.
During Jesus' life there were a lot of laws that was against the Jews. Jesus did not disobey any of them.

By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 2:26am

You are confused and talking about something entirely different.
The Jews and Negro in you case were discriminated against because of their race. They had not moved into your house.
The people being called An immigrant, who does not have papers broke the law to get here. Therefore they have moved into your house without an invitation.
If you believe they should be here, why don't you give one of them your house and job to show us you realy believe.
If a church goer claims to be a follower of the Bible there is only one kind of law you should break. That would be any law preventing you from following the Bible.
An immigrant without papers does not qualify.
During Jesus' life there were a lot of laws that was against the Jews. Jesus did not disobey any of them.

By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:31am

Yeah, they are the banksters' foreclosure agents, not poor people trying to feed their families.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:31am

Yeah, they are the banksters' foreclosure agents, not poor people trying to feed their families.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:28am

How do you think white Europeans obtained the entire land mass of North America?

Today, we condemn those methods as "ethnic cleansing."

What ethnic background are the people being despised as invaders? Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously. That's a bit earlier than even the 4th century.

As well, you need to do a little research into more recent history of how the southwest was colonized and conquered for European Americans - and who now are the ones who feel threatened. That wasn't Christian in the sense that Jesus would approve, though it was identical to the ideology called "Lebensraum" in German and current in all "master race" ideologies, including those practiced so assiduously in America.

You don't have any cachet to talk about God's will, identical as you make it with your own prejudices. Laws aren't particularly holy, especially since they are passed by all too human legislators subject to the same prejudies and pressures, and who can make them just an expression of racism and prejudice if they so choose by simple majority.

Just like nationalist parties were voted in by democratic means in Germany or anywhere else. And whose laws then demanded everyone produce their "papers."Anyhow, this is likely a case of what one Pope called the sin of "invincible ignorance" to be so willfully prejudiced that one seeks to justify one's own sinful hates by fraudulently identifying them with the will of God.

All too often, religion as practiced is simply used to make people feel good about the bad things they choose to do to others, whether individually or through legislatures.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:28am

How do you think white Europeans obtained the entire land mass of North America?

Today, we condemn those methods as "ethnic cleansing."

What ethnic background are the people being despised as invaders? Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously. That's a bit earlier than even the 4th century.

As well, you need to do a little research into more recent history of how the southwest was colonized and conquered for European Americans - and who now are the ones who feel threatened. That wasn't Christian in the sense that Jesus would approve, though it was identical to the ideology called "Lebensraum" in German and current in all "master race" ideologies, including those practiced so assiduously in America.

You don't have any cachet to talk about God's will, identical as you make it with your own prejudices. Laws aren't particularly holy, especially since they are passed by all too human legislators subject to the same prejudies and pressures, and who can make them just an expression of racism and prejudice if they so choose by simple majority.

Just like nationalist parties were voted in by democratic means in Germany or anywhere else. And whose laws then demanded everyone produce their "papers."Anyhow, this is likely a case of what one Pope called the sin of "invincible ignorance" to be so willfully prejudiced that one seeks to justify one's own sinful hates by fraudulently identifying them with the will of God.

All too often, religion as practiced is simply used to make people feel good about the bad things they choose to do to others, whether individually or through legislatures.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-17-2010 @ 7:20pm

Ken:
Maybe I was unclear in what I am trying to say. I'm not implying that the illegal immigrants from Mexico are the only real people. That would be an odd thing to believe. My point is that they ARE people. We can get so caught up in rhetoric based in laws, fears, opinion, etc that we can actually dehumanize an entire race or culture with our words. The scary part is that it is the first step. The next is to dehumanize them with our actions.

My point is that when we merely refer to them as "illegals" they become a thing. They are no longer a person. We have to remember that as Christians-even if not as an American- we have to first love the person. Always. I'm saying the "illegal status" needs to be reformed, but I have always been apprehensive of any agenda that pushes me towards an "us" v. "them" attitude. Simply because I never saw Christ behave in that way.
You seem to have alot of very strong, researched, and passionate views on this. I hope you can step back for just a moment and see that I am not saying we should have no system. That we should not fix a broken problem. That we should not have a better process in place. What I am saying is that we have to collectively realize that by our active participation or chosen indifference, we have allowed this to go on for some time. And with a knee jerk over zealous response we can do alot of damage.

And in response to your other comments... I am all about breaking any law that does not allow me to fullfill the two basic commandments. Of course, I see it more as a peaceful passive resistance. More sit-ins than car bombs, if you know what i mean. To criticize that kind of resistance-that type of protest- is to criticize some of the most beautiful and powerful movements in american history-namely the civil rights and suffrage movements. So yes, I do think there are moment when we can peacefully, rationally, and with much love choose not to obey a law.

Also, the path to legal status is one that is very difficult and expensive. I have personally walked through this process with a close friend, and it was a lot of money, forms, and ultimately a huge wait in a broken system. It is not as simple as getting our drivers license. There are programs and ideas, like the DREAM act, that seek to simplify the process for those who are wanting to become citizens. I love that type of legislation and wish we could come up with more ideas like that.
And lastly, to perhaps best understand my point of view, I need to explain my idea of citizenship. I love America. I honestly do, and it is from that place I challenge and call out. I expect the best from my country and actually believe in the ideals it preaches so I expect it to walk the walk. And yet, I understand that this country is not my home. Derek Webb wrote a beautiful song that says "My first allegiance is not a flag, a country or a man. My first allegiance is not democracy or blood. it is to a King and Kingdom." No matter what America chooses to do or not do, I can live above that and operate outside of it because there should be no law against love and peace. I drive the speed limit, pay my taxes, and obey all kinds of civil laws. But I would not, and if it comes to my state, I will not obey the law. And if that means I go to jail, so be it. It's all just temporary except for how we love God and others. Everything else is just protecting idols and vanity...

by: strawberryfarmer

06-17-2010 @ 7:20pm

Ken:
Maybe I was unclear in what I am trying to say. I'm not implying that the illegal immigrants from Mexico are the only real people. That would be an odd thing to believe. My point is that they ARE people. We can get so caught up in rhetoric based in laws, fears, opinion, etc that we can actually dehumanize an entire race or culture with our words. The scary part is that it is the first step. The next is to dehumanize them with our actions.

My point is that when we merely refer to them as "illegals" they become a thing. They are no longer a person. We have to remember that as Christians-even if not as an American- we have to first love the person. Always. I'm saying the "illegal status" needs to be reformed, but I have always been apprehensive of any agenda that pushes me towards an "us" v. "them" attitude. Simply because I never saw Christ behave in that way.
You seem to have alot of very strong, researched, and passionate views on this. I hope you can step back for just a moment and see that I am not saying we should have no system. That we should not fix a broken problem. That we should not have a better process in place. What I am saying is that we have to collectively realize that by our active participation or chosen indifference, we have allowed this to go on for some time. And with a knee jerk over zealous response we can do alot of damage.

And in response to your other comments... I am all about breaking any law that does not allow me to fullfill the two basic commandments. Of course, I see it more as a peaceful passive resistance. More sit-ins than car bombs, if you know what i mean. To criticize that kind of resistance-that type of protest- is to criticize some of the most beautiful and powerful movements in american history-namely the civil rights and suffrage movements. So yes, I do think there are moment when we can peacefully, rationally, and with much love choose not to obey a law.

Also, the path to legal status is one that is very difficult and expensive. I have personally walked through this process with a close friend, and it was a lot of money, forms, and ultimately a huge wait in a broken system. It is not as simple as getting our drivers license. There are programs and ideas, like the DREAM act, that seek to simplify the process for those who are wanting to become citizens. I love that type of legislation and wish we could come up with more ideas like that.
And lastly, to perhaps best understand my point of view, I need to explain my idea of citizenship. I love America. I honestly do, and it is from that place I challenge and call out. I expect the best from my country and actually believe in the ideals it preaches so I expect it to walk the walk. And yet, I understand that this country is not my home. Derek Webb wrote a beautiful song that says "My first allegiance is not a flag, a country or a man. My first allegiance is not democracy or blood. it is to a King and Kingdom." No matter what America chooses to do or not do, I can live above that and operate outside of it because there should be no law against love and peace. I drive the speed limit, pay my taxes, and obey all kinds of civil laws. But I would not, and if it comes to my state, I will not obey the law. And if that means I go to jail, so be it. It's all just temporary except for how we love God and others. Everything else is just protecting idols and vanity...

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:43am

A little more history for you.
The population of the Native Amerindian population in Mexico declined by an estimated 90% (reduced to 1 - 2.5 million people) by the early 1600s
In 1810 Mexico declared independence, with the Mexican War of Independence following for over a decade. In 1821 Treaty of Córdoba established Mexican independence from Spain and concluded the War.
The Libertadores (Spanish and Portuguese for "Liberators") were the principal leaders of the Latin American wars of independence from Spain. They were predominantly criollos (local-born people of European, mostly of Spanish or Portuguese, ancestry), bourgeois and influenced by liberalism and in most cases with military training in the metropole (mother country).
It looks like a lot of your illegal immigrant are more Spanish than the native americans "who have been here 40,000 years"

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by: Ngchen

06-16-2010 @ 7:02pm

I've mentioned this point previously, but I'll mention it again. The difference between a legal and illegal immigrant is simply the existence or lack thereof of a government-issued (proverbial) stamp of approval. In terms of effects both positive and negative of immigration, I don't see a single one that legal immigration would have that illegal immigration would not have, or vice versa.

So, at some point this excessive focus on the government-issued stamp of approval reeks of legalistic thinking.

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

by: Chris

06-15-2010 @ 7:56pm

This is a really helpful perspective on the politics of fear and current immigration policy. I'm in North Carolina where some churches are speaking out, but it's still the case that we need more people of faith to stand with our immigrant sisters and brothers in this very difficult time.

www.welcometheimmigrant.org

by: charles kiker tulia

06-15-2010 @ 10:44pm

Live the way of Jesus, and welcome all aliens as neighbors, but do not expect any of the empires of this world to follow suit.

by: charles kiker tulia

06-15-2010 @ 10:44pm

Live the way of Jesus, and welcome all aliens as neighbors, but do not expect any of the empires of this world to follow suit.

by: charles kiker tulia

06-15-2010 @ 10:44pm

Live the way of Jesus, and welcome all aliens as neighbors, but do not expect any of the empires of this world to follow suit.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-15-2010 @ 10:57pm

You guys are a little confused.
An immigrant with papers is like an invited guest into your home.
An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.
So how do you as church goers deside which laws it is ok to break?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-15-2010 @ 10:57pm

You guys are a little confused.
An immigrant with papers is like an invited guest into your home.
An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.
So how do you as church goers deside which laws it is ok to break?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-15-2010 @ 10:57pm

You guys are a little confused.
An immigrant with papers is like an invited guest into your home.
An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.
So how do you as church goers deside which laws it is ok to break?

by: NMRod

06-15-2010 @ 11:20pm

In Germany, during the thirties, and in America, during the thirties, the Jew-lovers and nigger-lovers were a little confused.

A Jew or a nigger without papers was like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.

So how did the Jew-loving and nigger-loving churchgoers deside which laws it was ok to break?

by: NMRod

06-15-2010 @ 11:20pm

In Germany, during the thirties, and in America, during the thirties, the Jew-lovers and nigger-lovers were a little confused.

A Jew or a nigger without papers was like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.

So how did the Jew-loving and nigger-loving churchgoers deside which laws it was ok to break?

by: NMRod

06-15-2010 @ 11:20pm

In Germany, during the thirties, and in America, during the thirties, the Jew-lovers and nigger-lovers were a little confused.

A Jew or a nigger without papers was like someone moving into your home when you were not looking.

So how did the Jew-loving and nigger-loving churchgoers deside which laws it was ok to break?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 2:26am

You are confused and talking about something entirely different.
The Jews and Negro in you case were discriminated against because of their race. They had not moved into your house.
The people being called An immigrant, who does not have papers broke the law to get here. Therefore they have moved into your house without an invitation.
If you believe they should be here, why don't you give one of them your house and job to show us you realy believe.
If a church goer claims to be a follower of the Bible there is only one kind of law you should break. That would be any law preventing you from following the Bible.
An immigrant without papers does not qualify.
During Jesus' life there were a lot of laws that was against the Jews. Jesus did not disobey any of them.

By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 2:26am

You are confused and talking about something entirely different.
The Jews and Negro in you case were discriminated against because of their race. They had not moved into your house.
The people being called An immigrant, who does not have papers broke the law to get here. Therefore they have moved into your house without an invitation.
If you believe they should be here, why don't you give one of them your house and job to show us you realy believe.
If a church goer claims to be a follower of the Bible there is only one kind of law you should break. That would be any law preventing you from following the Bible.
An immigrant without papers does not qualify.
During Jesus' life there were a lot of laws that was against the Jews. Jesus did not disobey any of them.

By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 2:26am

You are confused and talking about something entirely different.
The Jews and Negro in you case were discriminated against because of their race. They had not moved into your house.
The people being called An immigrant, who does not have papers broke the law to get here. Therefore they have moved into your house without an invitation.
If you believe they should be here, why don't you give one of them your house and job to show us you realy believe.
If a church goer claims to be a follower of the Bible there is only one kind of law you should break. That would be any law preventing you from following the Bible.
An immigrant without papers does not qualify.
During Jesus' life there were a lot of laws that was against the Jews. Jesus did not disobey any of them.

By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:01am

"An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking."

Yeah, except many of them WERE invited in--by the U.S. businesses that want to hire them.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:01am

"An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking."

Yeah, except many of them WERE invited in--by the U.S. businesses that want to hire them.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:01am

"An immigrant without papers is like someone moving into your home when you were not looking."

Yeah, except many of them WERE invited in--by the U.S. businesses that want to hire them.

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:05am

"They had not moved into your house. "

Ummm....big problem with uninvited guests moving into people's homes in Arizona and S. CA, is there?

by: squeaky

06-16-2010 @ 3:05am

"They had not moved into your house. "

Ummm....big problem with uninvited guests moving into people's homes in Arizona and S. CA, is there?

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:28am

How do you think white Europeans obtained the entire land mass of North America?

Today, we condemn those methods as "ethnic cleansing."

What ethnic background are the people being despised as invaders? Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously. That's a bit earlier than even the 4th century.

As well, you need to do a little research into more recent history of how the southwest was colonized and conquered for European Americans - and who now are the ones who feel threatened. That wasn't Christian in the sense that Jesus would approve, though it was identical to the ideology called "Lebensraum" in German and current in all "master race" ideologies, including those practiced so assiduously in America.

You don't have any cachet to talk about God's will, identical as you make it with your own prejudices. Laws aren't particularly holy, especially since they are passed by all too human legislators subject to the same prejudies and pressures, and who can make them just an expression of racism and prejudice if they so choose by simple majority.

Just like nationalist parties were voted in by democratic means in Germany or anywhere else. And whose laws then demanded everyone produce their "papers."Anyhow, this is likely a case of what one Pope called the sin of "invincible ignorance" to be so willfully prejudiced that one seeks to justify one's own sinful hates by fraudulently identifying them with the will of God.

All too often, religion as practiced is simply used to make people feel good about the bad things they choose to do to others, whether individually or through legislatures.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:28am

How do you think white Europeans obtained the entire land mass of North America?

Today, we condemn those methods as "ethnic cleansing."

What ethnic background are the people being despised as invaders? Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously. That's a bit earlier than even the 4th century.

As well, you need to do a little research into more recent history of how the southwest was colonized and conquered for European Americans - and who now are the ones who feel threatened. That wasn't Christian in the sense that Jesus would approve, though it was identical to the ideology called "Lebensraum" in German and current in all "master race" ideologies, including those practiced so assiduously in America.

You don't have any cachet to talk about God's will, identical as you make it with your own prejudices. Laws aren't particularly holy, especially since they are passed by all too human legislators subject to the same prejudies and pressures, and who can make them just an expression of racism and prejudice if they so choose by simple majority.

Just like nationalist parties were voted in by democratic means in Germany or anywhere else. And whose laws then demanded everyone produce their "papers."Anyhow, this is likely a case of what one Pope called the sin of "invincible ignorance" to be so willfully prejudiced that one seeks to justify one's own sinful hates by fraudulently identifying them with the will of God.

All too often, religion as practiced is simply used to make people feel good about the bad things they choose to do to others, whether individually or through legislatures.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:28am

How do you think white Europeans obtained the entire land mass of North America?

Today, we condemn those methods as "ethnic cleansing."

What ethnic background are the people being despised as invaders? Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously. That's a bit earlier than even the 4th century.

As well, you need to do a little research into more recent history of how the southwest was colonized and conquered for European Americans - and who now are the ones who feel threatened. That wasn't Christian in the sense that Jesus would approve, though it was identical to the ideology called "Lebensraum" in German and current in all "master race" ideologies, including those practiced so assiduously in America.

You don't have any cachet to talk about God's will, identical as you make it with your own prejudices. Laws aren't particularly holy, especially since they are passed by all too human legislators subject to the same prejudies and pressures, and who can make them just an expression of racism and prejudice if they so choose by simple majority.

Just like nationalist parties were voted in by democratic means in Germany or anywhere else. And whose laws then demanded everyone produce their "papers."Anyhow, this is likely a case of what one Pope called the sin of "invincible ignorance" to be so willfully prejudiced that one seeks to justify one's own sinful hates by fraudulently identifying them with the will of God.

All too often, religion as practiced is simply used to make people feel good about the bad things they choose to do to others, whether individually or through legislatures.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:31am

Yeah, they are the banksters' foreclosure agents, not poor people trying to feed their families.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:31am

Yeah, they are the banksters' foreclosure agents, not poor people trying to feed their families.

by: NMRod

06-16-2010 @ 5:31am

Yeah, they are the banksters' foreclosure agents, not poor people trying to feed their families.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:27am

NMRod.
I see that you have a little problem with the truth.
You will have a hard time comming up with 40,000 years of history to back up your facts.
You also seem to think that only one race of people are comming here without papers. This is far from the truth.
Now about "Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously" Why do people from Mexico speak Spanish?
It couldn't be because there ancestors were from Spain?
A little hstory for you.
The U.S. annexed Texas in 1845, leading to the Mexican-American War of 1846-48, followed by the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. Together with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853, the Treaty extended U.S. control over a wide range of territory once held by Mexico, including the present day states of Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and California. The vast majority of Hispanic populations chose to stay and become full US citizens.(here was your ethnic cleansing.)" By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government. The Mexican government had become despotic under the on and off again president General Santa Anna and the U.S. Government offered protection from Indian raids that Mexico had not prevented, it meant an end to civil wars of the sort that continuously wracked Mexico until 1920, and it promised much greater long-run prosperity. A lot of them did latter lose their land.
Most of people comming across the boder now never had any ancestors that lived in what is now the US.
I never said anything about God's will other than to follow the law unless it requires you to go against the Bible. You will not be able to find anything in the Bible to support breaking the law.
Try reading 1 Peter 2
What do you use to make you feel good about being for breaking the law?
Without laws and the following of laws there will be anarchy. This is what happens when people think they are free to only obey the laws they like. In this country there is a way to try to get laws changed that you think are wrong.
About your myth they are only poor people trying to feed their families.
in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."
The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population
Phoenix, Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of America, with more incidents than any other city in the world outside of Mexico City. "We're in the eye of the storm," Phoenix Police Chief Andy Anderson told ABC News of the violent crimes and ruthless tactics spurred by Mexico's drug cartels that have expanded business across the border.
Now if the people who came here without papers or over stayed their visa had obeyed the law, we would not be having this discussion and you would not have to try to convince youself that breaking the law is right and moral.
By the way. After thay break the law to get here they also have to lie and break the law more to get a job. They need a social security number.
I seem to recall the Bible has something to say about telling lies too.
So if you claim to be a follower of Christ you need to do a little soul searching. If you are not a follower of Christ you might want to check out his teachings.
Do not confuse religion and following Christ's teachings. The religious people of Christ's day killed him.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:27am

NMRod.
I see that you have a little problem with the truth.
You will have a hard time comming up with 40,000 years of history to back up your facts.
You also seem to think that only one race of people are comming here without papers. This is far from the truth.
Now about "Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously" Why do people from Mexico speak Spanish?
It couldn't be because there ancestors were from Spain?
A little hstory for you.
The U.S. annexed Texas in 1845, leading to the Mexican-American War of 1846-48, followed by the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. Together with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853, the Treaty extended U.S. control over a wide range of territory once held by Mexico, including the present day states of Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and California. The vast majority of Hispanic populations chose to stay and become full US citizens.(here was your ethnic cleansing.)" By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government. The Mexican government had become despotic under the on and off again president General Santa Anna and the U.S. Government offered protection from Indian raids that Mexico had not prevented, it meant an end to civil wars of the sort that continuously wracked Mexico until 1920, and it promised much greater long-run prosperity. A lot of them did latter lose their land.
Most of people comming across the boder now never had any ancestors that lived in what is now the US.
I never said anything about God's will other than to follow the law unless it requires you to go against the Bible. You will not be able to find anything in the Bible to support breaking the law.
Try reading 1 Peter 2
What do you use to make you feel good about being for breaking the law?
Without laws and the following of laws there will be anarchy. This is what happens when people think they are free to only obey the laws they like. In this country there is a way to try to get laws changed that you think are wrong.
About your myth they are only poor people trying to feed their families.
in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."
The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population
Phoenix, Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of America, with more incidents than any other city in the world outside of Mexico City. "We're in the eye of the storm," Phoenix Police Chief Andy Anderson told ABC News of the violent crimes and ruthless tactics spurred by Mexico's drug cartels that have expanded business across the border.
Now if the people who came here without papers or over stayed their visa had obeyed the law, we would not be having this discussion and you would not have to try to convince youself that breaking the law is right and moral.
By the way. After thay break the law to get here they also have to lie and break the law more to get a job. They need a social security number.
I seem to recall the Bible has something to say about telling lies too.
So if you claim to be a follower of Christ you need to do a little soul searching. If you are not a follower of Christ you might want to check out his teachings.
Do not confuse religion and following Christ's teachings. The religious people of Christ's day killed him.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:27am

NMRod.
I see that you have a little problem with the truth.
You will have a hard time comming up with 40,000 years of history to back up your facts.
You also seem to think that only one race of people are comming here without papers. This is far from the truth.
Now about "Their ancestors were on this continent for 40,000 years continuously" Why do people from Mexico speak Spanish?
It couldn't be because there ancestors were from Spain?
A little hstory for you.
The U.S. annexed Texas in 1845, leading to the Mexican-American War of 1846-48, followed by the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. Together with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853, the Treaty extended U.S. control over a wide range of territory once held by Mexico, including the present day states of Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and California. The vast majority of Hispanic populations chose to stay and become full US citizens.(here was your ethnic cleansing.)" By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government. The Mexican government had become despotic under the on and off again president General Santa Anna and the U.S. Government offered protection from Indian raids that Mexico had not prevented, it meant an end to civil wars of the sort that continuously wracked Mexico until 1920, and it promised much greater long-run prosperity. A lot of them did latter lose their land.
Most of people comming across the boder now never had any ancestors that lived in what is now the US.
I never said anything about God's will other than to follow the law unless it requires you to go against the Bible. You will not be able to find anything in the Bible to support breaking the law.
Try reading 1 Peter 2
What do you use to make you feel good about being for breaking the law?
Without laws and the following of laws there will be anarchy. This is what happens when people think they are free to only obey the laws they like. In this country there is a way to try to get laws changed that you think are wrong.
About your myth they are only poor people trying to feed their families.
in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."
The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population
Phoenix, Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of America, with more incidents than any other city in the world outside of Mexico City. "We're in the eye of the storm," Phoenix Police Chief Andy Anderson told ABC News of the violent crimes and ruthless tactics spurred by Mexico's drug cartels that have expanded business across the border.
Now if the people who came here without papers or over stayed their visa had obeyed the law, we would not be having this discussion and you would not have to try to convince youself that breaking the law is right and moral.
By the way. After thay break the law to get here they also have to lie and break the law more to get a job. They need a social security number.
I seem to recall the Bible has something to say about telling lies too.
So if you claim to be a follower of Christ you need to do a little soul searching. If you are not a follower of Christ you might want to check out his teachings.
Do not confuse religion and following Christ's teachings. The religious people of Christ's day killed him.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:43am

A little more history for you.
The population of the Native Amerindian population in Mexico declined by an estimated 90% (reduced to 1 - 2.5 million people) by the early 1600s
In 1810 Mexico declared independence, with the Mexican War of Independence following for over a decade. In 1821 Treaty of Córdoba established Mexican independence from Spain and concluded the War.
The Libertadores (Spanish and Portuguese for "Liberators") were the principal leaders of the Latin American wars of independence from Spain. They were predominantly criollos (local-born people of European, mostly of Spanish or Portuguese, ancestry), bourgeois and influenced by liberalism and in most cases with military training in the metropole (mother country).
It looks like a lot of your illegal immigrant are more Spanish than the native americans "who have been here 40,000 years"

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:43am

A little more history for you.
The population of the Native Amerindian population in Mexico declined by an estimated 90% (reduced to 1 - 2.5 million people) by the early 1600s
In 1810 Mexico declared independence, with the Mexican War of Independence following for over a decade. In 1821 Treaty of Córdoba established Mexican independence from Spain and concluded the War.
The Libertadores (Spanish and Portuguese for "Liberators") were the principal leaders of the Latin American wars of independence from Spain. They were predominantly criollos (local-born people of European, mostly of Spanish or Portuguese, ancestry), bourgeois and influenced by liberalism and in most cases with military training in the metropole (mother country).
It looks like a lot of your illegal immigrant are more Spanish than the native americans "who have been here 40,000 years"

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 8:43am

A little more history for you.
The population of the Native Amerindian population in Mexico declined by an estimated 90% (reduced to 1 - 2.5 million people) by the early 1600s
In 1810 Mexico declared independence, with the Mexican War of Independence following for over a decade. In 1821 Treaty of Córdoba established Mexican independence from Spain and concluded the War.
The Libertadores (Spanish and Portuguese for "Liberators") were the principal leaders of the Latin American wars of independence from Spain. They were predominantly criollos (local-born people of European, mostly of Spanish or Portuguese, ancestry), bourgeois and influenced by liberalism and in most cases with military training in the metropole (mother country).
It looks like a lot of your illegal immigrant are more Spanish than the native americans "who have been here 40,000 years"

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 1:32pm

If you are right about moving into a home without papers, say with an army, then should you advocate for the return to that land illegally gotten. The rule of Law you claim would say so. So, are you advocating the return of Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas back to Mexico? By you standards, it would be the right thing to do. There was no papers for the illegal land grab, only military power. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

"By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century."

By the way, Arizona is part of the US because of illegal war of conquest. We came into their homes with guns and pushed them out.

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 1:32pm

If you are right about moving into a home without papers, say with an army, then should you advocate for the return to that land illegally gotten. The rule of Law you claim would say so. So, are you advocating the return of Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas back to Mexico? By you standards, it would be the right thing to do. There was no papers for the illegal land grab, only military power. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

"By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century."

By the way, Arizona is part of the US because of illegal war of conquest. We came into their homes with guns and pushed them out.

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 1:32pm

If you are right about moving into a home without papers, say with an army, then should you advocate for the return to that land illegally gotten. The rule of Law you claim would say so. So, are you advocating the return of Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas back to Mexico? By you standards, it would be the right thing to do. There was no papers for the illegal land grab, only military power. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

"By the way, the Jews in your story that moved inti your house when you were not looking had been in Germany since at least the early 4th century."

By the way, Arizona is part of the US because of illegal war of conquest. We came into their homes with guns and pushed them out.

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 2:17pm

"By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government."

Ah, actually most researchers acknowledge the opposite "U.S. Congress. Recommendation of the Public Land Commission for Legislation as to Private Land Claims, 46th Congress, 2nd Session, 1880, House Executive Document 46, pp. 1116-17."
"Mexicanos: A history of Mexicans in the United States. Manuel G. Gonzales, Indinana University Press P.86-87 ISBN 0-253-33520-5"
"The U.S.-Mexico Border: The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, John C. Davenport, P.48, ISBN 0-7910-7833-7"

If you think the bill was not aimed at hispanics, I liked to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

Some more facts, in the age of Lynching (1880-1920), Mexican-Americans were a close second to African-Americans. The Texas Rangers killed thousands of Mexican-Americans. During the 1930s a force repatriation forced many AMERICAN CITIZENS of Mexican descent into mexico. Some estimate the numbers of Americans forced out of the US for simply being Hispanic in the tens of thousands.

It has been a National sin. You are right that the Spanish were evil in Mexico, but does that justify evil by Americans. Again to correct your stats. Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population.
Finally, let us put your 17% prison population myth to rest. First, the figure you are citing is federal populations. Which is important as most of these are detained for just being here before being shipped home. The state prison population is around 4.6 percent. lower than the per capital prison population. (Illegal make up to 6.8 of the population) The fact that most nonpapered immigrants have a LOWER crime rate than the general population has been the debated topic see http://ideas.repec.org/p/fip/fedhwp/wp-05-19.html
They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong. Like saying how bad the jews in Nazi Germany were by the fact that many of them ended up in prison, and they ended up being in prison just by the fact of being Jews.

The sins of father visit the son for three generation. The sins of our treatment of Mexicans will continue to haunt this country much like Slavery has.

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 2:17pm

"By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government."

Ah, actually most researchers acknowledge the opposite "U.S. Congress. Recommendation of the Public Land Commission for Legislation as to Private Land Claims, 46th Congress, 2nd Session, 1880, House Executive Document 46, pp. 1116-17."
"Mexicanos: A history of Mexicans in the United States. Manuel G. Gonzales, Indinana University Press P.86-87 ISBN 0-253-33520-5"
"The U.S.-Mexico Border: The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, John C. Davenport, P.48, ISBN 0-7910-7833-7"

If you think the bill was not aimed at hispanics, I liked to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

Some more facts, in the age of Lynching (1880-1920), Mexican-Americans were a close second to African-Americans. The Texas Rangers killed thousands of Mexican-Americans. During the 1930s a force repatriation forced many AMERICAN CITIZENS of Mexican descent into mexico. Some estimate the numbers of Americans forced out of the US for simply being Hispanic in the tens of thousands.

It has been a National sin. You are right that the Spanish were evil in Mexico, but does that justify evil by Americans. Again to correct your stats. Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population.
Finally, let us put your 17% prison population myth to rest. First, the figure you are citing is federal populations. Which is important as most of these are detained for just being here before being shipped home. The state prison population is around 4.6 percent. lower than the per capital prison population. (Illegal make up to 6.8 of the population) The fact that most nonpapered immigrants have a LOWER crime rate than the general population has been the debated topic see http://ideas.repec.org/p/fip/fedhwp/wp-05-19.html
They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong. Like saying how bad the jews in Nazi Germany were by the fact that many of them ended up in prison, and they ended up being in prison just by the fact of being Jews.

The sins of father visit the son for three generation. The sins of our treatment of Mexicans will continue to haunt this country much like Slavery has.

by: titopoet

06-16-2010 @ 2:17pm

"By and large, the Hispanic populations of these areas supported the new government."

Ah, actually most researchers acknowledge the opposite "U.S. Congress. Recommendation of the Public Land Commission for Legislation as to Private Land Claims, 46th Congress, 2nd Session, 1880, House Executive Document 46, pp. 1116-17."
"Mexicanos: A history of Mexicans in the United States. Manuel G. Gonzales, Indinana University Press P.86-87 ISBN 0-253-33520-5"
"The U.S.-Mexico Border: The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, John C. Davenport, P.48, ISBN 0-7910-7833-7"

If you think the bill was not aimed at hispanics, I liked to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

Some more facts, in the age of Lynching (1880-1920), Mexican-Americans were a close second to African-Americans. The Texas Rangers killed thousands of Mexican-Americans. During the 1930s a force repatriation forced many AMERICAN CITIZENS of Mexican descent into mexico. Some estimate the numbers of Americans forced out of the US for simply being Hispanic in the tens of thousands.

It has been a National sin. You are right that the Spanish were evil in Mexico, but does that justify evil by Americans. Again to correct your stats. Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population.
Finally, let us put your 17% prison population myth to rest. First, the figure you are citing is federal populations. Which is important as most of these are detained for just being here before being shipped home. The state prison population is around 4.6 percent. lower than the per capital prison population. (Illegal make up to 6.8 of the population) The fact that most nonpapered immigrants have a LOWER crime rate than the general population has been the debated topic see http://ideas.repec.org/p/fip/fedhwp/wp-05-19.html
They get imprisoned by the law you are upholding and is morally wrong. Like saying how bad the jews in Nazi Germany were by the fact that many of them ended up in prison, and they ended up being in prison just by the fact of being Jews.

The sins of father visit the son for three generation. The sins of our treatment of Mexicans will continue to haunt this country much like Slavery has.

by: strawberryfarmer

06-16-2010 @ 6:44pm

I think the point that I have gotten from all of Sojourners articles relating to this issue is that we have to see the issue of immigration as more than a nameless, soulless, mob of faces. The issue of fair immigration reform (which I support) is such a challenge because we must balance humanity, dignity, respect, and sacrfifice. Whether they "pull up anchor" or are granted amnesty, does not affect or negate the way we have built several industries on the backs of domestic cheap labor. We will be answering for that in one way or another. In addition, these are people of all types and it is unfair and derogatory- nearly racist- to stereotype or lable them in one particular way. They are not all saints, nor are they all sinners. But they are all people and regardless of whether you feel you should follow or break the law, the fact remains that as a reflection of God's creation they deserve to be treated with love. I can't answer or assume my government will do it. That is why God laid the responsibility at the feet of the individual (thank you Lord) because He knows that popular politics and media may sing one tune, but we are called out to be different. Free to love everyone despite their status. We don't always have to agree but the moment we sneer, turn up our nose, or begin to disregard the person in front of us because they are somehow "less than" we are slipping away from the people God has called us to be. My heart breaks not because I necessarily disagree with the notion of deportation, but because so many people approach it with almost a self-righteous glee. It should break the heart. I think we have to realize the part we play in the desire to come here. There is a natural reaction to things. We destroy local economies overseas, come in and rescue people with our military and might, portray ourselves as a great and powerful nation of dreamers and fighters, and then act surprised people abandon their now impoverished homelands to come here. Forget the Mexican-American war. Our subsidizing of corn dealt Mexico a terrrible blow. But I move away from my point. Which is that at the heart of this are real people who love, laugh, breathe, fear, and dream. And if they follow God, then Christ has told me they are my brothers and sisters. And they deserve better....

by: strawberryfarmer

06-16-2010 @ 6:44pm

I think the point that I have gotten from all of Sojourners articles relating to this issue is that we have to see the issue of immigration as more than a nameless, soulless, mob of faces. The issue of fair immigration reform (which I support) is such a challenge because we must balance humanity, dignity, respect, and sacrfifice. Whether they "pull up anchor" or are granted amnesty, does not affect or negate the way we have built several industries on the backs of domestic cheap labor. We will be answering for that in one way or another. In addition, these are people of all types and it is unfair and derogatory- nearly racist- to stereotype or lable them in one particular way. They are not all saints, nor are they all sinners. But they are all people and regardless of whether you feel you should follow or break the law, the fact remains that as a reflection of God's creation they deserve to be treated with love. I can't answer or assume my government will do it. That is why God laid the responsibility at the feet of the individual (thank you Lord) because He knows that popular politics and media may sing one tune, but we are called out to be different. Free to love everyone despite their status. We don't always have to agree but the moment we sneer, turn up our nose, or begin to disregard the person in front of us because they are somehow "less than" we are slipping away from the people God has called us to be. My heart breaks not because I necessarily disagree with the notion of deportation, but because so many people approach it with almost a self-righteous glee. It should break the heart. I think we have to realize the part we play in the desire to come here. There is a natural reaction to things. We destroy local economies overseas, come in and rescue people with our military and might, portray ourselves as a great and powerful nation of dreamers and fighters, and then act surprised people abandon their now impoverished homelands to come here. Forget the Mexican-American war. Our subsidizing of corn dealt Mexico a terrrible blow. But I move away from my point. Which is that at the heart of this are real people who love, laugh, breathe, fear, and dream. And if they follow God, then Christ has told me they are my brothers and sisters. And they deserve better....

by: strawberryfarmer

06-16-2010 @ 6:44pm

I think the point that I have gotten from all of Sojourners articles relating to this issue is that we have to see the issue of immigration as more than a nameless, soulless, mob of faces. The issue of fair immigration reform (which I support) is such a challenge because we must balance humanity, dignity, respect, and sacrfifice. Whether they "pull up anchor" or are granted amnesty, does not affect or negate the way we have built several industries on the backs of domestic cheap labor. We will be answering for that in one way or another. In addition, these are people of all types and it is unfair and derogatory- nearly racist- to stereotype or lable them in one particular way. They are not all saints, nor are they all sinners. But they are all people and regardless of whether you feel you should follow or break the law, the fact remains that as a reflection of God's creation they deserve to be treated with love. I can't answer or assume my government will do it. That is why God laid the responsibility at the feet of the individual (thank you Lord) because He knows that popular politics and media may sing one tune, but we are called out to be different. Free to love everyone despite their status. We don't always have to agree but the moment we sneer, turn up our nose, or begin to disregard the person in front of us because they are somehow "less than" we are slipping away from the people God has called us to be. My heart breaks not because I necessarily disagree with the notion of deportation, but because so many people approach it with almost a self-righteous glee. It should break the heart. I think we have to realize the part we play in the desire to come here. There is a natural reaction to things. We destroy local economies overseas, come in and rescue people with our military and might, portray ourselves as a great and powerful nation of dreamers and fighters, and then act surprised people abandon their now impoverished homelands to come here. Forget the Mexican-American war. Our subsidizing of corn dealt Mexico a terrrible blow. But I move away from my point. Which is that at the heart of this are real people who love, laugh, breathe, fear, and dream. And if they follow God, then Christ has told me they are my brothers and sisters. And they deserve better....

by: Ngchen

06-16-2010 @ 7:02pm

I've mentioned this point previously, but I'll mention it again. The difference between a legal and illegal immigrant is simply the existence or lack thereof of a government-issued (proverbial) stamp of approval. In terms of effects both positive and negative of immigration, I don't see a single one that legal immigration would have that illegal immigration would not have, or vice versa.

So, at some point this excessive focus on the government-issued stamp of approval reeks of legalistic thinking.

by: Ngchen

06-16-2010 @ 7:02pm

I've mentioned this point previously, but I'll mention it again. The difference between a legal and illegal immigrant is simply the existence or lack thereof of a government-issued (proverbial) stamp of approval. In terms of effects both positive and negative of immigration, I don't see a single one that legal immigration would have that illegal immigration would not have, or vice versa.

So, at some point this excessive focus on the government-issued stamp of approval reeks of legalistic thinking.

by: outragex

06-16-2010 @ 8:48pm

The goal of the AZ law is understandable, we need a rational immigration system. I think most Christians agree. The AZ law is mean spirited, punitive, and designed for political mileage not for truly solving the problem. It curtails religious liberty by potentially making it illegal for religious people to serve immigrants at a soup kitchen.It will waste tax dollars by encouraging frivolous lawsuits against police and govt. by putting them in a "damned if you do/don't" situation. Finally, it will likely lead to unjust harrassment of citizens who don't have ID on their person and "look like immigrants."

Finally, re. the anchor baby law-isnt it ironic that conservatives who pretend to revere the Constitution are so eager to disregard its obvious meaning in this case?

by: outragex

06-16-2010 @ 8:48pm

The goal of the AZ law is understandable, we need a rational immigration system. I think most Christians agree. The AZ law is mean spirited, punitive, and designed for political mileage not for truly solving the problem. It curtails religious liberty by potentially making it illegal for religious people to serve immigrants at a soup kitchen.It will waste tax dollars by encouraging frivolous lawsuits against police and govt. by putting them in a "damned if you do/don't" situation. Finally, it will likely lead to unjust harrassment of citizens who don't have ID on their person and "look like immigrants."

Finally, re. the anchor baby law-isnt it ironic that conservatives who pretend to revere the Constitution are so eager to disregard its obvious meaning in this case?

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 9:55pm

Following the rule of law is what keeps the US from being in a state of government overthrowing. When you take it upon yourself to say which laws should be followed and which should not you are then no different than the people killing each other in other countries because they do not like some part of the law or rules.
This leads to a break down of every aspect of life. In this country we have a way to try to peaceful change any law we think is unjust or wrong.

If you think that the allowing an open border will not change this country for the worst, then you are fooling yourself. A lot of the people comming across the border in the night do not want to become a citizen of the US. They want to take the land area and make it into Mexico. We all know Mexico is a good place to live because they have a hard time kssping US citizens out. If they can nor change their country for the better then change the US to be like back home.

Before a legal immigrant can get papers they have to have a background check. An illegal immigrant can be anyone who can run across the boder or over stay a visa. This will and does let some very bad people in.
By the way for you confused people, an immigrant is a person who goes to another country to become a citizen of that country.
If you think the US law is wrong try staying in Mexico or any other country illegal and when you get out of jail report back how great it was. A country without borders soon is not a country. A country without laws soon is not a country.
Just because someone broke the law(crossed the border without papers) several years ago and are just now caught is no different than robbing a bank and not getting caught forseveral years. They are both still guilty.

strawberryfarmer
Are you trying to say that all the other people in the world are not real people?
Why then is it fair for you to only let real people from Mexico have a free pass and not all the other non real people? Why not just let everyone in the world who wants to move here come with a free pass?
titopoet
How can you correct my stats? I said that they are more Spanish than the native americans. You try to correct it by saying , "Most Mexicans are of Mulatto or mixed European and Native population."
Same thing. They are not 100% native American.
You need to help me out here. What or how do you determine if a war is legal or illegal. If you look at the history of the world borders have changed several times all according to you through illegal wars.
Mexico and the US had a disagrement about the border. It was followed with the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo in 1848. This was followed with the Gadsden Purchase in 1853. So it appears that the US bought(I think it is legal to buy things.) part illegally too?
An area in extreme southern New Mexico and Arizona south of the Gila River. It was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853 to ensure territorial rights for a practicable southern railroad route to the Pacific Coast.
The purchase was negotiated by James Gadsden, U.S. minister to Mexico, for $10 million. The acquisition fixed the borders of the later 48 contiguous states. It seems that there is a legal paper.
There goes your myth about it being taken with an illegal war.
Generaly when you fight and lose you do not get back what you lost.When you sale something you need to buy it back if it is for sale. If not for sale you are out of luck or you try to steal it back. This is what is now happining now and you think it is great.
NMRod brought up the Jews not me. But you are confused on that too. Jews were in jail for being Jews but illegals are in jail for being illegal. If you can not see the difference you will remain confused and wrong. Now if they were in jail for being Hispanic you would have a point.
What part of illegal do you not understand? When you do something illegal you end up in jail.
If there were no illegals there would be no illegals in jail no matter what the persent. There would be no citizens killed by illegals ect.

by: Ken Arrowsmith

06-16-2010 @ 10:14pm

outragex
First I would use reply but for some reason it is not loading on this computer.
Have you read the AZ law?
It is a copy of the US law. It makes it illegal to be in AZ illegally.
There would be no need of this law if the US enforced their laws. Also we would not even be talking about this if the law had been enforced for the last several years.