Why Christianity and July 4th are Incompatible

Squeaky said:

"I wonder how we would view the situation if the Native Americans had united and declared their independence against the European invaders?"

Good question!

It seems to me that some tribes did declare their independence and entered into violent battle with the European invaders to defend their independence (and sadly lost).

Will Kurt write a piece to shame the tribal leaders for being violent in their fight for independence? Or is he just interested in shaming the United States founders for their actions 250 years later?

But to be fair, Kurt's comments focus on Christians Declaring "war" (which is not what happened) and his problem with Christians celebrating "war" today.

...lets not forget that the signing of the Declaration was, in itself, an act of non-violence, that was then later met with violence.

As a social justice Christian, I see no problem celebrating people standing up under oppression and declaring to the world, enough is enough. This is what we gladly celebrate on Independence Day.

And living next to a reservation I can say some of the most patriotic people I have met happen to be Native American. The very fact their language and culture robbed has been a sin this nation allowed and at times promoted. But because of the ideals of this nation , many Natives actually used that forgotten language to be used as a code in one our major wars , credited with helping win significant battles in the pacific . What was your point ?
The Native Americans who support this country are unchristian ?

Joel

"We must teach our pupils that they do not belong to themselves but are, instead, public property."

You've answered correctly. Benjamin Rush is the right answer.

Does it strike you as odd or significant that a Founding Father and Signer of the Delaration of Independence would hold such a view? Doesn't such a view oppose every Founding principle we've been taught?

Derek finally gets to the point! We as Christians are first citizens of the Kingdom of God, and incidentally residents of the U.S. - Resident Aliens in Will Willoman's and Stan Hauerwas' terms. (Check our their book by that title.) Our citizenship in the Kingdom of God calls us to critique our society, including our government, from the perspective of the Gospel. That is why I stay away from my church on the 4th of July Sunday. We don't seem to see the incompatibility of celebrating our country as if it is God's gift to the world. Such celebrations reveal the extent to which The Church has been co-opted by the culture rather than standing in judgement of it.
For another perspective on the American Revolution, take a look at Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." He points out (well documented from sources that never make the history textbooks we were subjected to) that the American Revolution was launched by wealthy colonial elites and economic interests to break loose from the economic domination of King George. It had nothing to do with most of the population of the colonies beyond using them as cannon fodder. Most of the citizens of the new U.S.A. found their lives essentially unchanged by the revolution, except that thousands of them had been killed in the war. They had suffered simply to exchange one economic tyranny for another.

The TEA parties are an manifestation of the desire to put things back as they were originally intended to be."

I should be clear. This is MY intent as a TEA Party activist, and it is the intent of those that I have met and associate with. I cannot speak for the personal goals of others throughout the country. I suppose you might be in a better place to define what their personal agendas might be.

Whether the Way "works" or not is not really the issue. The Way of Jesus is not the way of pragmatism. We are to be followers of the Way, and leave the results in the hands of God. "Take up your cross, and follow me."

Scat,

According to Romans 13, non violence on a national level is not an option whether its within a particular country through their law enforcement or internationally through peacekeeping or actual war. If you are ordained to "bear the sword" because of evil, violence is the inevitable result.

And no one does that better than the United States. God has ordained this Secular order and our separate relationship to it.

I'm just wondering if Canada and New Zealand (and other British colonies) would have been "given" their freedom later had not the American patriots taken their stand as they did. To be honest, I highly doubt it!!! While I appreciate your nonviolent convictions, it seems to me that the broad view of Scripture would suggest that God in his sovereign freedom can and does use violence redemptively in the course of human events. What if God WAS at work in and through these flawed founders of our country?

If your contention is correct, that we have obtained a new citizenship, then they simply adds strength to the argument that for the Christian, earthly nationalism is in contradiction to the gospel of Christ and the Christian's standing as such.

To be a citizen of the kingdom means kingdom principles must take precedence over those of your earthly nation, and by Kingdom principles I mean those espoused by Jesus Christ rather than the Old Testament law of which Christ is the terminus and termination. Thus the Christian can not serve in the military, can not support racism, can not accept sexism.

To be a citizen of the Kingdom is to be a social radical, but also to disavow any tie to an earthly ruler, for which things the early church was persecuted, but that is a different argument considering the "conversion" of Constantine the Great effected the death of the Christian faith and the birth of the Christian religion/PR exercise in respectability.

Don't be naive. Even a cursory examination of the history of those other revolutions reveals the massacres, false imprisonments and general terrorization of the populace that came in the immediate aftermath.

Our miracle is not just that we succeeded, but that we succeeded in such a spectacular fashion and filled that power void with a stable free society without turning on ourselves "like the dog returning to its vomit."

Our miracle is that our revolution guaranteed the freedom and necessary for the unfettered spread of the gospel. Russian and French revolutionaries viewed excessive religion as the enemy to gaining power.

Our miracle is that the power was given back to the people, instead of an elite ruling class posing as representatives of the public will.

My sorrow is that, for the last hundred years or so, we have been gradually moving closer to giving up that power in the name of progress. We lose sight of the hand of God in our founding and forget the captivity of our fathers, as the ancient people of the Bible did so often, and we can see more and more each the day the withdrawal of divine support for this nation as a result.

I'm not saying there aren't dark periods in our own history, that we shouldn't learn from and take precautions against repeating, but no other nation has had such a powerful effect on the growth and spread of both freedom and the gospel (without the force of arms-even though we have tried and failed with the force of arms as well) as had this nation.

Based on Kurt's beliefs, I guess we should of just let slavery die out on its own.... uhg. There were many with your belief who felt we should of never gotten into WWI or WWII. There was so much more than just taxation with out representation, it seems like you are the one rewriting history here Kurt, which is easy for you given the freedoms you have, religious and otherwise. Remember why many came to this new land in the first place, freedom from persecution of their religion. We see how Europe has used politics mixed into religion to control people and the fruits of that today where the Royal Family is to be the head of the church and the examples they are leading and the detriment it has been on the church. I for one am happy with the separation of church and state, the two do not mix. Prayer is my weapon of choice, I however am of the belief that through my faith that we are called to action as God's voice, arms, legs and body of Christ. Just as I wouldn't sit by as a neighbor were raped or beaten without intervening and say it was God's will to wait until the perpetrator stops on their own. I respect your right to your opinion, I disagree with your interpretation of God having us wait out every situation of evil by sitting on out hands as the freedom God gave us us is ripped from our hands. If you don't believe me, try your writings in China, India or the Middle East.

Based on Kurt's beliefs, I guess we should of just let slavery die out on its own.... uhg. There were many with your belief who felt we should of never gotten into WWI or WWII. There was so much more than just taxation with out representation, it seems like you are the one rewriting history here Kurt, which is easy for you given the freedoms you have, religious and otherwise. Remember why many came to this new land in the first place, freedom from persecution of their religion. We see how Europe has used politics mixed into religion to control people and the fruits of that today where the Royal Family is to be the head of the church and the examples they are leading and the detriment it has been on the church. I for one am happy with the separation of church and state, the two do not mix. Prayer is my weapon of choice, I however am of the belief that through my faith that we are called to action as God's voice, arms, legs and body of Christ. Just as I wouldn't sit by as a neighbor were raped or beaten without intervening and say it was God's will to wait until the perpetrator stops on their own. I respect your right to your opinion, I disagree with your interpretation of God having us wait out every situation of evil by sitting on out hands as the freedom God gave us us is ripped from our hands. If you don't believe me, try your writings in China, India or the Middle East.

While taking a tour of Acoma-Pueblo in NM our tour guide didn't have very good things to say about our gov't and country (and the missionaries who had the Indians build the church) but when it came time to paying respects to the veterans in the cemetary he was very solemn and proud. I was stunned by the "disconnect" from service to the country to bashing it. I see the same thing happening here with regards to gov't vs military. They have no problem defending the country (with their life sometimes) and loath it at the same time.

"Our miracle is that the power was given back to the people, instead of an elite ruling class posing as representatives of the public will."

Power is in the hands of the people? Really? Surely the rise of a movement such as the TEA party is evidence of a sense of disenfranchisement with the system?

John Cherry,

Remember that when the first settlers came to escape religious persecution, they promptly set us a system whereby those not conforming to their beliefs and practices were also persecuted.......ostracized, beaten, put in stocks. etc. This was all done in the tradition of John Calvin.

In fact, Patrick Henry's "give me liberty or give me death" speech was written after watching a Baptist receive a public beating for refusing to apply for a license to preach.

Politics and religion have always been mixed and always will. The question is "to what degree?"

And as Jesus reminds us, which politics are we to give allegiance to, the politics of Caesar or the politics of God?

Blue Deacon wrote: "One of the problems was that many of us wanted to keep those freedoms for ourselves and make us into an elite in its own right rather than working for the rights and freedoms of anyone not like us."

Exactly. There are people who have fought for the rights and freedoms of African-Americans who now oppose the rights and freedoms of women, LGBT people, Muslims, Mexicans, and others. It's too bad, but too many people try to gain their own freedom on the backs of others rather than uniting in common with all of the oppressed.

Belt32

Remember that naivete is a two way street. You could be consisered naive yourself for espousing the standard God and Country line w/o considering much of the historical details which are not widely dispersed with flag waiving patriotism. In fact, those facts usually are ignored.

Dark periods in our history could be just a naive way of acknowledging American sins without acknowledging the intentional motives and methods used by those in power.

Mentioning God's blessing on this country could be just a naive way of not having to acknowledge the fact that God has ordained this nation to judge other nations (and American citizens as well) and administer the sword.

The Gospel????? This country was not founded on the Gospel as articulated in Scripture. Salvation is by Grace through Faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. Any Gospel which adds a means of grace to the equation is, as Paul says, another gospel.

Maybe this means of grace gospel is nothing more than a strong delusion.........which can come across as naivete.

Part of that was who came here. We had many Scots-Irish who emigrated from Northern Ireland beginning in the 1600s because they hated England, and they brought that hatred with them (and being Celts, they live to fight).

We lose sight of the hand of God in our founding and forget the captivity of our fathers, as the ancient people of the Bible did so often, and we can see more and more each the day the withdrawal of divine support for this nation as a result.

One of the problems was that many of us wanted to keep those freedoms for ourselves and make us into an elite in its own right rather than working for the rights and freedoms of anyone not like us. The civil-rights movement, among others, should never have been needed in the first place.

Part of that was who came here. We had many Scots-Irish who emigrated from Northern Ireland beginning in the 1600s because they hated England, and they brought that hatred with them (and being Celts, they live to fight).

We lose sight of the hand of God in our founding and forget the captivity of our fathers, as the ancient people of the Bible did so often, and we can see more and more each the day the withdrawal of divine support for this nation as a result.

One of the problems was that many of us wanted to keep those freedoms for ourselves and make us into an elite in its own right rather than working for the rights and freedoms of anyone not like us. The civil-rights movement, among others, should never have been needed in the first place.

Reply feature still not working...

Palosaari wrote: "Rebellion against your rightful authorities and the use of violence are wrong, irrespective of the emerging results centuries later."

So it was wrong for Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman and others to revolt against the "rightful authorities" (as it was considered at the time) of their slave masters? Should they have remained content to obey their "rightful authorities" as slaves?

I agree fully with this article, and the great author, Mark Noll. But I can't but wonder if the alternative history of no American Rebellion would have resulted in the freedoms that Canada, New Zealand, and Australia were later given. Rebellion against your rightful authorities and the use of violence are wrong, irrespective of the emerging results centuries later. We must affirm though that a good, no matter how good, is never justified, even if only one small innocent must unwillingly suffer for that good. Better that one man die for the nation- only if that one man did so of his own free will.

Sojourners Comments malfunctioning, again.

In reply to Belt 32: B32 says, "Even a cursoy examination of those other revolutions reveals the massacres, false imprisonments and general terrorization of the populace . . . in the immediate aftermath."

True enough. But there was some terrorization of the Loyalists in the immediate aftermath of the American Revolution. Many Loyalists fled back to England, dispossessed of their property in America. Slaves who had deserted their masters in the South to join England with the promise of freedom were returned to their masters if they could not flee to England. And who knows what fate awaited them back on the plantations? Native Americans who had supported the crown in hopes of stopping the continuous European expansion into their lands were left subject to 200 years of white expansion into their territories. The aftermath of the American Revolution was not all sweetness and light if you were on the wrong side.

In reply to Belt 32: B32 says, "Even a cursoy examination of those other revolutions reveals the massacres, false imprisonments and general terrorization of the populace . . . in the immediate aftermath."

True enough. But there was some terrorization of the Loyalists in the immediate aftermath of the American Revolution. Many Loyalists fled back to England, dispossessed of their property in America. Slaves who had deserted their masters in the South to join England with the promise of freedom were returned to their masters if they could not flee to England. And who knows what fate awaited them back on the plantations? Native Americans who had supported the crown in hopes of stopping the continuous European expansion into their lands were left subject to 200 years of white expansion into their territories. The aftermath of the American Revolution was not all sweetness and light if you were on the wrong side.