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Flag vs. Font: Pledging Our Allegiance

"You are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism and marked as Christ's own forever." (The Book of Common Prayer)
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands ... " (The Pledge of Allegiance)

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When we enter into the worship of the triune God, we give witness to the truth that we are citizens of a commonwealth wider than that of the nation of our birth. We are, as members of the body of Christ across time and space, Christians without borders. We pledge allegiance not to any earthly power or principality but to the sovereign God of the universe. In the liturgy we enact a story of salvation that subsumes all other stories. In baptism we are granted a new identity that transcends all other identity markers. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer insisted, "Those who are baptized no longer belong to the world, no longer serve the world, and are no longer subject to it. They belong to Christ alone, and relate to the world only through Christ."

In the aftermath of September 11, 2001, a renewed nostalgia for the pledge of allegiance and the American flag emerged in the culture at large and in churches across the country. These were potent symbols around which Americans could unite in their sorrow in spaces both secular and sacred.

In the post-9/11 context of American Christianity, a kind of hyperpatriotism continues to be evident in worshiping communities across the theological and liturgical spectra, revealing, at best, a deep confusion about the relationship between church and nation and, at worst, a willingness to set aside the church's historic confession that Jesus -- not Caesar -- is Lord.

Nationalism in the years since World War II has come to be linked ever more closely with consumer capitalism. Citizenship in the modern Western nation-state is predicated less on the cultivation of a virtuous populace and more on ensuring access to the market and the (endless) creation of capital. The market, in short, has become the template for the citizen's relationship with the state.

Insofar as the church in America has willingly (though at times unwittingly) underwritten the doctrine of the consumer-citizen and encouraged an idolatrous devotion to the nation, it has betrayed its distinctive, baptismally-derived witness as a politics in its own right.

Baptism initiates us into a community whose mission is to communicate to the world a "deep vision of the extravagant splendor of God" (Marva Dawn). Our task is to witness to this God and not any other god. The god who presides over American civil piety, as acknowledged in the pledge of allegiance, is a vague and nebulous deity -- a cipher, really, whose content can be determined by the parochial interests of a nation determined to guard its own power and interests.

By contrast, the triune God in whose name we are baptized is a God made known through the people of Israel; in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth; and in the ongoing mission of the church. This God seeks to renew and restore the whole created order, not to preserve powerful republics. This God calls us to a life lived after the pattern of Jesus, and through baptism our lives are united with his and are offered back to us as gifts so that we might become conduits of the love, mercy, and justice that is the Trinitarian life of God.

Debra Dean Murphy is assistant professor of religion at West Virginia Wesleyan College. She blogs at Intersections: Thoughts on Religion, Culture and Politics and at ekklesiaproject.org.

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by: duhsciple

07-09-2010 @ 11:59pm

The things that are Caesar's= nothing

The things that belong to God= everything

by: nuclearferret

07-15-2010 @ 6:05am

Anyone who equates "foreign aid" to charity gets it wrong anyway. Taking money by force of law through taxes and sending to another country and their citizens is merely an act of national foreign affairs and has nothing to do with charity. As for the UN, of course they would set a higher goal, it is primarily populated by welfare recipient countries.

by: nuclearferret

07-15-2010 @ 6:05am

Anyone who equates "foreign aid" to charity gets it wrong anyway. Taking money by force of law through taxes and sending to another country and their citizens is merely an act of national foreign affairs and has nothing to do with charity. As for the UN, of course they would set a higher goal, it is primarily populated by welfare recipient countries.

by: nuclearferret

07-15-2010 @ 6:02am

Wedding vows would be a start.

by: nuclearferret

07-15-2010 @ 6:02am

Wedding vows would be a start.

by: retiredpreacher

07-12-2010 @ 5:51pm

Thanks, Patricia. I guess we (my wife and I) are the anabaptists near us. I
think at this stage in our lives our best witness can be carried out within
the congregation where we are.

by: retiredpreacher

07-12-2010 @ 5:51pm

Thanks, Patricia. I guess we (my wife and I) are the anabaptists near us. I
think at this stage in our lives our best witness can be carried out within
the congregation where we are.

by: retiredpreacher

07-07-2010 @ 7:20pm

Amen! and Amen!

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 7:51pm

It must be remembered that the only Baptism that seals us is the Baptism of the Spirit upon our belief in Christ. Physical Baptism does nothing for us spiritually.

As such, my salvation by faith, belief, is what initiates me into the community of the Body of Christ, not physical Baptism.

What are we to communicate? Is it a deep vision of the extravagant splendor or God? Or is it, as Paul said in II Cor. 5:18-19, ".....and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.........and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Jesus said, "If I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". The Gospel is the vision the World needs to see, not the splendor of God.

"This God seeks to renew and restore the whole created order, not to preserve powerful republics."

Romans 13 tells us that God is the one who ordains these powerful republics. He will preserve them or replace them as He sees fit.

And Physical Baptism does not unite us with Christ.

If it seems that I'm nitpicking, I'm really not. These are foundational issues, doctrines of Scripture that are clearly laid out.

I can agree with the idea of not pledging allegiance to the flag of any earthly nation, but if the criteria for citizenship in the Kingdom of God is in error, then refraining from pledging allegiance to the flag is an empty endeavor. It only has meaning in relation to a truly biblical salvation of Grace by faith, plus nothing, minus nothing.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:01pm

Allegiance: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause.

I wonder, is there anything in this life that I can be devoted or loyal to without it superseding my devotion to God?

Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear, so please somebody help me understand?

I'm pretty devoted to my wife, and she is to me. Does this contradict my worship of God?

I'm pretty devoted to my children, dedicating a significant portion of my time to trying to provided for them and make them happy. Is God displeased by this?

What are the things, if any, that I can be devoted and loyal to, without crossing over into the realm of Idolatry?

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06-20-2011 @ 8:28am

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by: BlueDeacon

07-07-2010 @ 9:13pm

I think what we're talking about is a "My country, right or wrong" mentality which doesn't have the humility to accept its faults or believe that it does anything wrong.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: Palosaari

07-10-2010 @ 11:28pm

Growing up in the Jesus Movement, I have never said the Pledge of Allegiance. Then the Sunday after 9/11, I ran into a problem. The minimega nondom on the East side of Seattle, Washington Cathedral, had flags *everywhere* to remember 9/11, including one the size of a moving truck behind the pulpit (literally). Honestly, as you faced forward, with no cross, just the flag, you couldn't really be sure what you were worshiping. So I asked, and was told that today would be fairly patriotic. And I thought on today, of all days, where would I be safe?

"I know- the Quakers!" I looked up the closest Quaker church in Seattle- it was the only Quaker church in Seattle- and started attending there, as well as Wash. Cathedral. A few months later when I was excommunicated from Wash. Cathedral for not being patriotic enough, I just continued attending the Quaker church. It was a much better fit for me, with the focus on one allegiance only.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: retiredpreacher

07-11-2010 @ 12:04am

reply to palosaari

congratulations on being excommed. Glad you could find a Quaker church. No Quakers or anabaptists near me. So I make the best of it.

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: Patricia

07-11-2010 @ 6:35am

Oops - mistaken "reply" hit - sorry :).

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 12:31am

"the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation."

Is it then contrary to God's will to go beyond this bare minimum requirement, and "pledge allegiance" to this country?

"Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc."

All the more reason "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world. Of course, you might point out that we are embroiled in two wars, both of which are hard to construe as acts of love. But again, I emphasize that part of pledging allegiance to this country (this may not be true in other countries) is to accept the responsibility to right wrongs whenever they are present, not an endorsement of all of this country's mistakes.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 12:31am

"the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation."

Is it then contrary to God's will to go beyond this bare minimum requirement, and "pledge allegiance" to this country?

"Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc."

All the more reason "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world. Of course, you might point out that we are embroiled in two wars, both of which are hard to construe as acts of love. But again, I emphasize that part of pledging allegiance to this country (this may not be true in other countries) is to accept the responsibility to right wrongs whenever they are present, not an endorsement of all of this country's mistakes.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 2:15am

belt32

Colossians 3:1-2 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth.

Matthew 6:24 no man can serve two masters, for either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hold to the one and despise the other....

John 18:36, ".....My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews."

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 2:15am

belt32

Colossians 3:1-2 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth.

Matthew 6:24 no man can serve two masters, for either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hold to the one and despise the other....

John 18:36, ".....My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews."

by: PASTOR JEFF

07-08-2010 @ 1:43am

Under what circumstances would you find it needful or appropriate to pledge you allegiance to your wife?

by: PASTOR JEFF

07-08-2010 @ 1:43am

Under what circumstances would you find it needful or appropriate to pledge you allegiance to your wife?

by: BlueDeacon

07-08-2010 @ 1:37am

I see no problem with that. One of my colleagues who I believed opposed the war in Iraq wrote, in effect, "The best way to support the troops is to question their leaders for sending them there in the first place."

by: BlueDeacon

07-08-2010 @ 1:37am

I see no problem with that. One of my colleagues who I believed opposed the war in Iraq wrote, in effect, "The best way to support the troops is to question their leaders for sending them there in the first place."

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:23am

Don't most wedding ceremonies involving certain promises about being loyal to and caring for one another? I certainly would never use the phrase "pledge allegiance" because it just sounds cheesy, but the English language definition does fit into my understanding of spousal responsibilities.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:23am

Don't most wedding ceremonies involving certain promises about being loyal to and caring for one another? I certainly would never use the phrase "pledge allegiance" because it just sounds cheesy, but the English language definition does fit into my understanding of spousal responsibilities.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:19am

I'm not a biblical expert, so I can't with any authority say you might be taking a narrow interpretation of some these things. But if I may suggest some possibilities, this is what I think. You are, of course, entitled to completely ignore what follows, as there are something like 4,000 independent Christian churches using the same Bible but arriving to different conclusions about certain (usually minor) points of doctrine.

Colossians 3:1-2-> I find it hard to believe that Paul is suggesting to the Colossians that it is improper to show affection for family v. 19) or country and still keep ones main devotion centered on God. Perhaps, he is explicitly referring to certain erroneous practices such as the worship of angel (ch 2 v. 13) and over emphasis of certain ceremonial practices such as circumcision (ch. 2 v. 11-13). I feel that my devotion to country and working to better that country is a natural part of "seeking after things which are above."

Matthew 6:24 If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country.

John 18:36 Not to be too nitpicky, but of course I must point out the use of the term "of the world" as opposed to "in the world" (other verses making this statement use the same wording, I believe). This, of course, refers to the origin of the kingdom, not necessarily the current location. Remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream: the stone (the kingdom of God-Dan. 2:44) cut without hands (i.e. not "of the world") fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

This is of course all moot, since I'm not suggesting that the U.S.A. is somehow equivalent to the kingdom of God, only that if we pay attention, do our part, we can change this country into something that might better facilitate the spread of that kingdom.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:19am

I'm not a biblical expert, so I can't with any authority say you might be taking a narrow interpretation of some these things. But if I may suggest some possibilities, this is what I think. You are, of course, entitled to completely ignore what follows, as there are something like 4,000 independent Christian churches using the same Bible but arriving to different conclusions about certain (usually minor) points of doctrine.

Colossians 3:1-2-> I find it hard to believe that Paul is suggesting to the Colossians that it is improper to show affection for family v. 19) or country and still keep ones main devotion centered on God. Perhaps, he is explicitly referring to certain erroneous practices such as the worship of angel (ch 2 v. 13) and over emphasis of certain ceremonial practices such as circumcision (ch. 2 v. 11-13). I feel that my devotion to country and working to better that country is a natural part of "seeking after things which are above."

Matthew 6:24 If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country.

John 18:36 Not to be too nitpicky, but of course I must point out the use of the term "of the world" as opposed to "in the world" (other verses making this statement use the same wording, I believe). This, of course, refers to the origin of the kingdom, not necessarily the current location. Remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream: the stone (the kingdom of God-Dan. 2:44) cut without hands (i.e. not "of the world") fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

This is of course all moot, since I'm not suggesting that the U.S.A. is somehow equivalent to the kingdom of God, only that if we pay attention, do our part, we can change this country into something that might better facilitate the spread of that kingdom.

by: retiredpreacher

07-07-2010 @ 7:20pm

Amen! and Amen!

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 7:51pm

It must be remembered that the only Baptism that seals us is the Baptism of the Spirit upon our belief in Christ. Physical Baptism does nothing for us spiritually.

As such, my salvation by faith, belief, is what initiates me into the community of the Body of Christ, not physical Baptism.

What are we to communicate? Is it a deep vision of the extravagant splendor or God? Or is it, as Paul said in II Cor. 5:18-19, ".....and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.........and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Jesus said, "If I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". The Gospel is the vision the World needs to see, not the splendor of God.

"This God seeks to renew and restore the whole created order, not to preserve powerful republics."

Romans 13 tells us that God is the one who ordains these powerful republics. He will preserve them or replace them as He sees fit.

And Physical Baptism does not unite us with Christ.

If it seems that I'm nitpicking, I'm really not. These are foundational issues, doctrines of Scripture that are clearly laid out.

I can agree with the idea of not pledging allegiance to the flag of any earthly nation, but if the criteria for citizenship in the Kingdom of God is in error, then refraining from pledging allegiance to the flag is an empty endeavor. It only has meaning in relation to a truly biblical salvation of Grace by faith, plus nothing, minus nothing.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:01pm

Allegiance: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause.

I wonder, is there anything in this life that I can be devoted or loyal to without it superseding my devotion to God?

Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear, so please somebody help me understand?

I'm pretty devoted to my wife, and she is to me. Does this contradict my worship of God?

I'm pretty devoted to my children, dedicating a significant portion of my time to trying to provided for them and make them happy. Is God displeased by this?

What are the things, if any, that I can be devoted and loyal to, without crossing over into the realm of Idolatry?

by: BlueDeacon

07-07-2010 @ 9:13pm

I think what we're talking about is a "My country, right or wrong" mentality which doesn't have the humility to accept its faults or believe that it does anything wrong.

by: BMLHSJ

07-08-2010 @ 4:30am

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" -Matthew 22:21

by: BMLHSJ

07-08-2010 @ 4:30am

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" -Matthew 22:21

by: Jaymes Lackey

07-08-2010 @ 8:06am

belt32,

you raise some great questions. We know for certain that God ordains marriage. We know that he has bound your spouse to you.

We know he has given stewardship of your children to you and you must care for them.

But country, I think you assume too much. You say, "If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country." Where do you see Christ desiring you to change anything through political might and power. The Kingdom of God is a mustard seed that turns into a fast growing weed. It takes over in its own right and runs all over the face of the earth. Political power and might is opposite the will of Christ. Legislation is a lazy man's discipleship.

Plus I would definitely read the early church fathers (first 300 years) to get a since of what they thought about patriotism and politics:

The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected." (-Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218)

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature." (Tatian's address to the Greeks)

"He called Abraham and commanded him to go out from the country where he was living. With this call [God] has roused us all, and now we have left the state. We have renounced all the things the world offers" ~ (Justin Martyr)

While they were searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out to the assembly, they attacked Jason's house. When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some believers before the city authorities, shouting, 'These people who have been turning the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has entertained them as guests. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus.' (Acts 17)

"I recognize no empire of this present age." ~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

"If you enroll as one of God's people, heaven is your country and God your lawgiver." ~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: Jaymes Lackey

07-08-2010 @ 8:06am

belt32,

you raise some great questions. We know for certain that God ordains marriage. We know that he has bound your spouse to you.

We know he has given stewardship of your children to you and you must care for them.

But country, I think you assume too much. You say, "If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country." Where do you see Christ desiring you to change anything through political might and power. The Kingdom of God is a mustard seed that turns into a fast growing weed. It takes over in its own right and runs all over the face of the earth. Political power and might is opposite the will of Christ. Legislation is a lazy man's discipleship.

Plus I would definitely read the early church fathers (first 300 years) to get a since of what they thought about patriotism and politics:

The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected." (-Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218)

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature." (Tatian's address to the Greeks)

"He called Abraham and commanded him to go out from the country where he was living. With this call [God] has roused us all, and now we have left the state. We have renounced all the things the world offers" ~ (Justin Martyr)

While they were searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out to the assembly, they attacked Jason's house. When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some believers before the city authorities, shouting, 'These people who have been turning the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has entertained them as guests. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus.' (Acts 17)

"I recognize no empire of this present age." ~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

"If you enroll as one of God's people, heaven is your country and God your lawgiver." ~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: BBush

07-10-2010 @ 12:16am

Duhsciple

Do you pay taxes? If so, why?

by: BBush

07-10-2010 @ 12:16am

Duhsciple

Do you pay taxes? If so, why?

by: duhsciple

07-09-2010 @ 11:59pm

The things that are Caesar's= nothing

The things that belong to God= everything

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: retiredpreacher

07-07-2010 @ 7:20pm

Amen! and Amen!

by: retiredpreacher

07-07-2010 @ 7:20pm

Amen! and Amen!

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 7:51pm

It must be remembered that the only Baptism that seals us is the Baptism of the Spirit upon our belief in Christ. Physical Baptism does nothing for us spiritually.

As such, my salvation by faith, belief, is what initiates me into the community of the Body of Christ, not physical Baptism.

What are we to communicate? Is it a deep vision of the extravagant splendor or God? Or is it, as Paul said in II Cor. 5:18-19, ".....and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.........and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Jesus said, "If I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". The Gospel is the vision the World needs to see, not the splendor of God.

"This God seeks to renew and restore the whole created order, not to preserve powerful republics."

Romans 13 tells us that God is the one who ordains these powerful republics. He will preserve them or replace them as He sees fit.

And Physical Baptism does not unite us with Christ.

If it seems that I'm nitpicking, I'm really not. These are foundational issues, doctrines of Scripture that are clearly laid out.

I can agree with the idea of not pledging allegiance to the flag of any earthly nation, but if the criteria for citizenship in the Kingdom of God is in error, then refraining from pledging allegiance to the flag is an empty endeavor. It only has meaning in relation to a truly biblical salvation of Grace by faith, plus nothing, minus nothing.

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 7:51pm

It must be remembered that the only Baptism that seals us is the Baptism of the Spirit upon our belief in Christ. Physical Baptism does nothing for us spiritually.

As such, my salvation by faith, belief, is what initiates me into the community of the Body of Christ, not physical Baptism.

What are we to communicate? Is it a deep vision of the extravagant splendor or God? Or is it, as Paul said in II Cor. 5:18-19, ".....and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.........and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Jesus said, "If I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". The Gospel is the vision the World needs to see, not the splendor of God.

"This God seeks to renew and restore the whole created order, not to preserve powerful republics."

Romans 13 tells us that God is the one who ordains these powerful republics. He will preserve them or replace them as He sees fit.

And Physical Baptism does not unite us with Christ.

If it seems that I'm nitpicking, I'm really not. These are foundational issues, doctrines of Scripture that are clearly laid out.

I can agree with the idea of not pledging allegiance to the flag of any earthly nation, but if the criteria for citizenship in the Kingdom of God is in error, then refraining from pledging allegiance to the flag is an empty endeavor. It only has meaning in relation to a truly biblical salvation of Grace by faith, plus nothing, minus nothing.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:01pm

Allegiance: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause.

I wonder, is there anything in this life that I can be devoted or loyal to without it superseding my devotion to God?

Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear, so please somebody help me understand?

I'm pretty devoted to my wife, and she is to me. Does this contradict my worship of God?

I'm pretty devoted to my children, dedicating a significant portion of my time to trying to provided for them and make them happy. Is God displeased by this?

What are the things, if any, that I can be devoted and loyal to, without crossing over into the realm of Idolatry?

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:01pm

Allegiance: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause.

I wonder, is there anything in this life that I can be devoted or loyal to without it superseding my devotion to God?

Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear, so please somebody help me understand?

I'm pretty devoted to my wife, and she is to me. Does this contradict my worship of God?

I'm pretty devoted to my children, dedicating a significant portion of my time to trying to provided for them and make them happy. Is God displeased by this?

What are the things, if any, that I can be devoted and loyal to, without crossing over into the realm of Idolatry?

by: BlueDeacon

07-07-2010 @ 9:13pm

I think what we're talking about is a "My country, right or wrong" mentality which doesn't have the humility to accept its faults or believe that it does anything wrong.

by: BlueDeacon

07-07-2010 @ 9:13pm

I think what we're talking about is a "My country, right or wrong" mentality which doesn't have the humility to accept its faults or believe that it does anything wrong.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: belt32

07-07-2010 @ 9:30pm

So, I can pledge allegiance to my country as long as with that pledge, I pledge to God and to myself that that allegiance includes (as, I think most God fearing Americans believe) the responsibility to make sure, insofar that I can, that my country is doing the right thing.

For me, this is what the Pledge of Allegiance and other forms of patriotism have always meant.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:54pm

"Likening any form of patriotism to idolatry is one of the most common arguments attempting to countermand thinking about the United States in a positive light that I hear..."

I have not heard this argument before. I've experienced far more of the conflation of nationalism (not the same as patriotism) and faith that Debra talks about.

But, I definitely believe there is a difference between patriotism/loyalty/devotion and idolatry. I think we can be loyal to, or devoted to, any number of things - as long as they are not sinful or harmful - and not have our worship of God contradicted.

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: Patricia

07-07-2010 @ 9:55pm

Sounds right to me :)!

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: BBush

07-07-2010 @ 11:42pm

belt32

You've asked some legitimate questions.

You ask about devotion to your wife and children. Since God has commanded you to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that would seem to settle that issue. And since the training of your children would consist of love and huge amounts of time, again, in obedience to God, that is settled.

As far as the country you live in, the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation. Does that approach the level of allegiance?

Well, legally speaking, treason consists of giving aid and comfort to the enemies of your country. Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc. It seems to me, when the Word of God is resorted to seriously, these questions are answered unequivocally.

We can sit around and use all manner of philsophical constructs to arrive at any number of conclusions, but when you die, you will not give account to your own logical wisdom. The Word of God is the only standard that will be used. The sooner that is realized by people, the better off they will be spiritually.:)

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 12:31am

"the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation."

Is it then contrary to God's will to go beyond this bare minimum requirement, and "pledge allegiance" to this country?

"Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc."

All the more reason "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world. Of course, you might point out that we are embroiled in two wars, both of which are hard to construe as acts of love. But again, I emphasize that part of pledging allegiance to this country (this may not be true in other countries) is to accept the responsibility to right wrongs whenever they are present, not an endorsement of all of this country's mistakes.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 12:31am

"the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation."

Is it then contrary to God's will to go beyond this bare minimum requirement, and "pledge allegiance" to this country?

"Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc."

All the more reason "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world. Of course, you might point out that we are embroiled in two wars, both of which are hard to construe as acts of love. But again, I emphasize that part of pledging allegiance to this country (this may not be true in other countries) is to accept the responsibility to right wrongs whenever they are present, not an endorsement of all of this country's mistakes.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 12:31am

"the commands we have are to honor the King, pay our taxes, submit those athorities and pray for their salvation."

Is it then contrary to God's will to go beyond this bare minimum requirement, and "pledge allegiance" to this country?

"Yet we are commanded to love our enemy, feed our enemy, etc."

All the more reason "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world. Of course, you might point out that we are embroiled in two wars, both of which are hard to construe as acts of love. But again, I emphasize that part of pledging allegiance to this country (this may not be true in other countries) is to accept the responsibility to right wrongs whenever they are present, not an endorsement of all of this country's mistakes.

by: BlueDeacon

07-08-2010 @ 1:37am

I see no problem with that. One of my colleagues who I believed opposed the war in Iraq wrote, in effect, "The best way to support the troops is to question their leaders for sending them there in the first place."

by: BlueDeacon

07-08-2010 @ 1:37am

I see no problem with that. One of my colleagues who I believed opposed the war in Iraq wrote, in effect, "The best way to support the troops is to question their leaders for sending them there in the first place."

by: BlueDeacon

07-08-2010 @ 1:37am

I see no problem with that. One of my colleagues who I believed opposed the war in Iraq wrote, in effect, "The best way to support the troops is to question their leaders for sending them there in the first place."

by: PASTOR JEFF

07-08-2010 @ 1:43am

Under what circumstances would you find it needful or appropriate to pledge you allegiance to your wife?

by: PASTOR JEFF

07-08-2010 @ 1:43am

Under what circumstances would you find it needful or appropriate to pledge you allegiance to your wife?

by: PASTOR JEFF

07-08-2010 @ 1:43am

Under what circumstances would you find it needful or appropriate to pledge you allegiance to your wife?

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 2:15am

belt32

Colossians 3:1-2 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth.

Matthew 6:24 no man can serve two masters, for either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hold to the one and despise the other....

John 18:36, ".....My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews."

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 2:15am

belt32

Colossians 3:1-2 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth.

Matthew 6:24 no man can serve two masters, for either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hold to the one and despise the other....

John 18:36, ".....My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews."

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 2:15am

belt32

Colossians 3:1-2 If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth.

Matthew 6:24 no man can serve two masters, for either he will love the one and hate the other or he will hold to the one and despise the other....

John 18:36, ".....My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews."

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:19am

I'm not a biblical expert, so I can't with any authority say you might be taking a narrow interpretation of some these things. But if I may suggest some possibilities, this is what I think. You are, of course, entitled to completely ignore what follows, as there are something like 4,000 independent Christian churches using the same Bible but arriving to different conclusions about certain (usually minor) points of doctrine.

Colossians 3:1-2-> I find it hard to believe that Paul is suggesting to the Colossians that it is improper to show affection for family v. 19) or country and still keep ones main devotion centered on God. Perhaps, he is explicitly referring to certain erroneous practices such as the worship of angel (ch 2 v. 13) and over emphasis of certain ceremonial practices such as circumcision (ch. 2 v. 11-13). I feel that my devotion to country and working to better that country is a natural part of "seeking after things which are above."

Matthew 6:24 If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country.

John 18:36 Not to be too nitpicky, but of course I must point out the use of the term "of the world" as opposed to "in the world" (other verses making this statement use the same wording, I believe). This, of course, refers to the origin of the kingdom, not necessarily the current location. Remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream: the stone (the kingdom of God-Dan. 2:44) cut without hands (i.e. not "of the world") fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

This is of course all moot, since I'm not suggesting that the U.S.A. is somehow equivalent to the kingdom of God, only that if we pay attention, do our part, we can change this country into something that might better facilitate the spread of that kingdom.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:19am

I'm not a biblical expert, so I can't with any authority say you might be taking a narrow interpretation of some these things. But if I may suggest some possibilities, this is what I think. You are, of course, entitled to completely ignore what follows, as there are something like 4,000 independent Christian churches using the same Bible but arriving to different conclusions about certain (usually minor) points of doctrine.

Colossians 3:1-2-> I find it hard to believe that Paul is suggesting to the Colossians that it is improper to show affection for family v. 19) or country and still keep ones main devotion centered on God. Perhaps, he is explicitly referring to certain erroneous practices such as the worship of angel (ch 2 v. 13) and over emphasis of certain ceremonial practices such as circumcision (ch. 2 v. 11-13). I feel that my devotion to country and working to better that country is a natural part of "seeking after things which are above."

Matthew 6:24 If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country.

John 18:36 Not to be too nitpicky, but of course I must point out the use of the term "of the world" as opposed to "in the world" (other verses making this statement use the same wording, I believe). This, of course, refers to the origin of the kingdom, not necessarily the current location. Remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream: the stone (the kingdom of God-Dan. 2:44) cut without hands (i.e. not "of the world") fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

This is of course all moot, since I'm not suggesting that the U.S.A. is somehow equivalent to the kingdom of God, only that if we pay attention, do our part, we can change this country into something that might better facilitate the spread of that kingdom.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:19am

I'm not a biblical expert, so I can't with any authority say you might be taking a narrow interpretation of some these things. But if I may suggest some possibilities, this is what I think. You are, of course, entitled to completely ignore what follows, as there are something like 4,000 independent Christian churches using the same Bible but arriving to different conclusions about certain (usually minor) points of doctrine.

Colossians 3:1-2-> I find it hard to believe that Paul is suggesting to the Colossians that it is improper to show affection for family v. 19) or country and still keep ones main devotion centered on God. Perhaps, he is explicitly referring to certain erroneous practices such as the worship of angel (ch 2 v. 13) and over emphasis of certain ceremonial practices such as circumcision (ch. 2 v. 11-13). I feel that my devotion to country and working to better that country is a natural part of "seeking after things which are above."

Matthew 6:24 If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country.

John 18:36 Not to be too nitpicky, but of course I must point out the use of the term "of the world" as opposed to "in the world" (other verses making this statement use the same wording, I believe). This, of course, refers to the origin of the kingdom, not necessarily the current location. Remember Nebuchadnezzar's dream: the stone (the kingdom of God-Dan. 2:44) cut without hands (i.e. not "of the world") fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

This is of course all moot, since I'm not suggesting that the U.S.A. is somehow equivalent to the kingdom of God, only that if we pay attention, do our part, we can change this country into something that might better facilitate the spread of that kingdom.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:23am

Don't most wedding ceremonies involving certain promises about being loyal to and caring for one another? I certainly would never use the phrase "pledge allegiance" because it just sounds cheesy, but the English language definition does fit into my understanding of spousal responsibilities.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:23am

Don't most wedding ceremonies involving certain promises about being loyal to and caring for one another? I certainly would never use the phrase "pledge allegiance" because it just sounds cheesy, but the English language definition does fit into my understanding of spousal responsibilities.

by: belt32

07-08-2010 @ 3:23am

Don't most wedding ceremonies involving certain promises about being loyal to and caring for one another? I certainly would never use the phrase "pledge allegiance" because it just sounds cheesy, but the English language definition does fit into my understanding of spousal responsibilities.

by: BMLHSJ

07-08-2010 @ 4:30am

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" -Matthew 22:21

by: BMLHSJ

07-08-2010 @ 4:30am

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" -Matthew 22:21

by: BMLHSJ

07-08-2010 @ 4:30am

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" -Matthew 22:21

by: Jaymes Lackey

07-08-2010 @ 8:06am

belt32,

you raise some great questions. We know for certain that God ordains marriage. We know that he has bound your spouse to you.

We know he has given stewardship of your children to you and you must care for them.

But country, I think you assume too much. You say, "If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country." Where do you see Christ desiring you to change anything through political might and power. The Kingdom of God is a mustard seed that turns into a fast growing weed. It takes over in its own right and runs all over the face of the earth. Political power and might is opposite the will of Christ. Legislation is a lazy man's discipleship.

Plus I would definitely read the early church fathers (first 300 years) to get a since of what they thought about patriotism and politics:

The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected." (-Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218)

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature." (Tatian's address to the Greeks)

"He called Abraham and commanded him to go out from the country where he was living. With this call [God] has roused us all, and now we have left the state. We have renounced all the things the world offers" ~ (Justin Martyr)

While they were searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out to the assembly, they attacked Jason's house. When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some believers before the city authorities, shouting, 'These people who have been turning the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has entertained them as guests. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus.' (Acts 17)

"I recognize no empire of this present age." ~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

"If you enroll as one of God's people, heaven is your country and God your lawgiver." ~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD

by: Jaymes Lackey

07-08-2010 @ 8:06am

belt32,

you raise some great questions. We know for certain that God ordains marriage. We know that he has bound your spouse to you.

We know he has given stewardship of your children to you and you must care for them.

But country, I think you assume too much. You say, "If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country." Where do you see Christ desiring you to change anything through political might and power. The Kingdom of God is a mustard seed that turns into a fast growing weed. It takes over in its own right and runs all over the face of the earth. Political power and might is opposite the will of Christ. Legislation is a lazy man's discipleship.

Plus I would definitely read the early church fathers (first 300 years) to get a since of what they thought about patriotism and politics:

The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected." (-Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218)

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature." (Tatian's address to the Greeks)

"He called Abraham and commanded him to go out from the country where he was living. With this call [God] has roused us all, and now we have left the state. We have renounced all the things the world offers" ~ (Justin Martyr)

While they were searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out to the assembly, they attacked Jason's house. When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some believers before the city authorities, shouting, 'These people who have been turning the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has entertained them as guests. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus.' (Acts 17)

"I recognize no empire of this present age." ~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

"If you enroll as one of God's people, heaven is your country and God your lawgiver." ~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD

by: Jaymes Lackey

07-08-2010 @ 8:06am

belt32,

you raise some great questions. We know for certain that God ordains marriage. We know that he has bound your spouse to you.

We know he has given stewardship of your children to you and you must care for them.

But country, I think you assume too much. You say, "If I am working with my vote and my political activity (little though it may be) to put this country more in line with where I think Christ would want it, then I see no difference between serving God and country." Where do you see Christ desiring you to change anything through political might and power. The Kingdom of God is a mustard seed that turns into a fast growing weed. It takes over in its own right and runs all over the face of the earth. Political power and might is opposite the will of Christ. Legislation is a lazy man's discipleship.

Plus I would definitely read the early church fathers (first 300 years) to get a since of what they thought about patriotism and politics:

The professions and trades of those who are going to be accepted into the community must be examined. The nature and type of each must be established. A pander, one who keeps a brothel, shall give it up or be rejected. A sculptor or an artist must be warned not to make idolatrous pictures; he shall give it up or be rejected. If anyone is an actor or impersonator in theater, he shall give it up or be rejected. A charioteer, an athlete, a gladiator, a trainer of gladiators, or one who fights wild beasts or hunts them or holds public office at the circus games shall give it up or be rejected. A pagan priest or guardian of idols shall give it up or be rejected. A military constable must be forbidden to kill. If he is commanded to kill in the course of his duty, he must not take this upon himself, neither may he swear; if he is not willing to follow these instructions, he must be rejected. A proconsul or a civic magistrate who wears the purple and governs by the sword, shall give it up or be rejected." (-Hippolytus, Church Order in The Apostolic Tradition 16; ca. A.D. 218)

"I do not wish to be a king; I am not anxious to be rich; I decline military command... Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature." (Tatian's address to the Greeks)

"He called Abraham and commanded him to go out from the country where he was living. With this call [God] has roused us all, and now we have left the state. We have renounced all the things the world offers" ~ (Justin Martyr)

While they were searching for Paul and Silas to bring them out to the assembly, they attacked Jason's house. When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some believers before the city authorities, shouting, 'These people who have been turning the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has entertained them as guests. They are all acting contrary to the decrees of the emperor, saying that there is another king named Jesus.' (Acts 17)

"I recognize no empire of this present age." ~ Speratus (martyred 180AD)

"If you enroll as one of God's people, heaven is your country and God your lawgiver." ~ Clement of Alexandria (150AD

by: hikerrev

07-08-2010 @ 1:17pm

And I believe that Jesus was being a little sarcastic, maybe smiling when he said this, since all things belong to G-d.

by: hikerrev

07-08-2010 @ 1:17pm

And I believe that Jesus was being a little sarcastic, maybe smiling when he said this, since all things belong to G-d.

by: hikerrev

07-08-2010 @ 1:17pm

And I believe that Jesus was being a little sarcastic, maybe smiling when he said this, since all things belong to G-d.

by: Jo Taylor

07-08-2010 @ 1:38pm

"All the more reason to "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world."

Umm, not so much. The US may give the most aid in terms of actual dollars but in terms of GDP the US is way, way down the list. The UN advises 0.70% as a goal. 'The most charitable country' manages a mere .20% - not even close and way off the International pace.

by: Jo Taylor

07-08-2010 @ 1:38pm

"All the more reason to "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world."

Umm, not so much. The US may give the most aid in terms of actual dollars but in terms of GDP the US is way, way down the list. The UN advises 0.70% as a goal. 'The most charitable country' manages a mere .20% - not even close and way off the International pace.

by: Jo Taylor

07-08-2010 @ 1:38pm

"All the more reason to "pledge allegiance" to the most charitable (in terms of foreign aid) country in the world."

Umm, not so much. The US may give the most aid in terms of actual dollars but in terms of GDP the US is way, way down the list. The UN advises 0.70% as a goal. 'The most charitable country' manages a mere .20% - not even close and way off the International pace.