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Testifying on the Gulf Coast

The captain was the first to smell it. He told us that the ocean didn't used to smell this way. Then, we all smelled it. As we traveled further out over the choppy waters it finally came into view, oil coating the grasses and clinging to the edges of the water and land. I asked what all the oil would do to this place. "Kill everything that lived here before," was the solemn answer.

Our captain's name was Kevin. He has fished those waters for 30 years. He learned to navigate the bayous and estuaries from his father who in turn learned it from his father. Eighty percent of the areas he used to fish are now gone to him. He's heard stories of other fishermen taking their own lives. But, Kevin, with his 8-year old daughter, is not giving up hope. "If we didn't have hope we wouldn't have anything. So we hold on to hope," he told me.

The first thing I noticed as we left the dock was how beautiful this place is. The marshes extend almost 15 miles out into the ocean and barrier islands are another 5 miles further out. While I'm only a visitor, I can see how Kevin and so many others have fallen in love with this place. It was so peaceful to hear the water lap against the boat and see wildflowers coloring the marshes. The life of a fisherman is certainly hard work, but our captain told me that the beauty they see every day makes it all worthwhile. But, Kevin says he has seen nearly 25 percent of these marshes, the natural protection against hurricanes disappear during his time on the water. The oil will only hasten their disappearance. "Flood waters recede and houses we have rebuilt," he told me, "but the estuaries are not restored so quickly, if ever."

The people I am meeting have fed this country some of the world's greatest seafood. Now, when some of them have to stand in line for food at relief agencies it is almost too much for them to bear. Depression and mental health have become major issues on the Gulf Coast when people see no future for themselves. We stopped at a dock by a small village and talked with three women who were on their way to work. We asked them if their faith had been shaken. They told me no, it has only gotten stronger. After all they had been through, after all the times they had been knocked down, they were sure that the only reason they stand today is because God has lifted them up.

I was asked by a reporter if this disaster was an act of God. I said no, this is a result of human folly. And if you think that the people you see here are sad at what has happened to this place, then just imagine how sad the Creator who gave us this natural beauty as a gift must be. If you think those who have lost their jobs are mad, imagine how angry the God who gave us the job to take care of creation is when we fail like this.

It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet. Why this crisis has happened and what we will learn from it are both spiritual questions we must now ask ourselves. Life will not be the same for Kevin; it cannot be the same for us.

portrait-jim-wallisJim Wallis is the author of Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street -- A Moral Compass for the New Economy, and CEO of Sojourners. He blogs at www.godspolitics.com. Jim is currently on a tour of the Gulf Coast with a interfaith group of leaders sponsored by the Sierra Club. For live updates from his trip please follow @jimwallis on Twitter.

<strong><img title="portrait-jim-wallis" src="/sites/default/files/images/portrait-jim-wallis.jpg" alt="portrait-jim-wallis" width="60" height="73" /><em>Jim Wallis</em></strong><em> is the author of </em><a href="http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=special.RV&amp;item=RV_order">Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street -- A Moral Compass for the New Economy</a><em>, and CEO of </em><a href="http://www.sojo.net/">Sojourners</a><em>. He blogs at </em><a href="http://www.godspolitics.com/"><em>www.godspolitics.com</em></a><em>.</em>
<strong><a href="http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.subscribe&amp;source=web_blog_content">+Click here to get e-mail updates from Jim Wallis</a></strong>

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by: roxane05

07-09-2010 @ 6:36pm

Oh, Text books, how history and issues are being changed, taken away from our kids schools to meet the 'new' not really, progressive ideas, will be discuss Today with teachers and the public.

Today July 9th at 5:00 Estern. Don't miss it...Fox of course, if you want to know the truth.

by: roxane05

07-09-2010 @ 6:36pm

Oh, Text books, how history and issues are being changed, taken away from our kids schools to meet the 'new' not really, progressive ideas, will be discuss Today with teachers and the public.

Today July 9th at 5:00 Estern. Don't miss it...Fox of course, if you want to know the truth.

by: roxane05

07-09-2010 @ 6:32pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8RM7Khners

I know you are talking lipids here, I am on a quest to get Mr Wallis to explain to me the content of the Video above, where the President of the US speaks of Collective Salvation. Sorry,

But since I am here...Oil: We have not yet, unfortunatelly, fully came up with an alternative energy source, therefore we shall continue to use the resources we have until then/until we can replace it IF need be., There is greed everywhere, small company big companies; there are greedy individuals, what can we do here ( A job for Mr. Wallis, to preach I suppose ) Other that than an awful accident happened in one of the rigs and many people and animals suffer and will continue to suffer. NO one intended for this to happen. What is left is to comfort pray for people, care for animals and clean up the mess; not until THEN we shall see if there was any mishandling and penalties to be paid. The rest is Politics ! You don't throw away all your knives because you accidently shop off a finger; or stop all heart surgeries because a couple of people died. Be Honest to yourselves people., and stop repeating politicians & and the administration media rhetorics on oil usage to advance a cap and trade deals. Start asking yourseves simple questions: Why is the president wanting to step on BP throat since day ONE and cancelling on deep oil drill, when at the same time there is a budget of 20 B to send off to PetroBra in Brazil, to do just that: Very Deep drilling ( Go Google, don't believe me ). Also ask why any media other that Fox is in bed with Obama, GE owns them pretty much, and George Soros ( who also own half of PetroBra ); Easy questions you know like, Do you think GE is going to benefit from cap and trade? Why is the media fascinated with down oil and Up cap and trade? Politics..
Also, there is such things as Hermit, these people enjoy the outdoors and mountains and the very natural life, can do wonders without computers cushiond chairs and ice-tea, they don't have to do deal with oil, pollution, taxes, other people. There are choices.

by: Patricia

07-10-2010 @ 8:20pm

It probably seems that way to you because you can't tell the difference between disagreement with overall philosophy, and lying/attacking/distorting/misinforming/stereotyping/straw man construction and other dishonest tactics employed to express and support that disagreement.

I find that extremely unfortunate, especially since it appears to be so deliberate.

Unfortunate, yes...unexpected, no.

by: roxane05

07-09-2010 @ 6:32pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8RM7Khners

I know you are talking lipids here, I am on a quest to get Mr Wallis to explain to me the content of the Video above, where the President of the US speaks of Collective Salvation. Sorry,

But since I am here...Oil: We have not yet, unfortunatelly, fully came up with an alternative energy source, therefore we shall continue to use the resources we have until then/until we can replace it IF need be., There is greed everywhere, small company big companies; there are greedy individuals, what can we do here ( A job for Mr. Wallis, to preach I suppose ) Other that than an awful accident happened in one of the rigs and many people and animals suffer and will continue to suffer. NO one intended for this to happen. What is left is to comfort pray for people, care for animals and clean up the mess; not until THEN we shall see if there was any mishandling and penalties to be paid. The rest is Politics ! You don't throw away all your knives because you accidently shop off a finger; or stop all heart surgeries because a couple of people died. Be Honest to yourselves people., and stop repeating politicians & and the administration media rhetorics on oil usage to advance a cap and trade deals. Start asking yourseves simple questions: Why is the president wanting to step on BP throat since day ONE and cancelling on deep oil drill, when at the same time there is a budget of 20 B to send off to PetroBra in Brazil, to do just that: Very Deep drilling ( Go Google, don't believe me ). Also ask why any media other that Fox is in bed with Obama, GE owns them pretty much, and George Soros ( who also own half of PetroBra ); Easy questions you know like, Do you think GE is going to benefit from cap and trade? Why is the media fascinated with down oil and Up cap and trade? Politics..
Also, there is such things as Hermit, these people enjoy the outdoors and mountains and the very natural life, can do wonders without computers cushiond chairs and ice-tea, they don't have to do deal with oil, pollution, taxes, other people. There are choices.

by: BBush

07-10-2010 @ 11:06pm

Patricia

Has it ever occured to you that your words may be viewed by some as "lying/attacking/distorting/misinforming/stereotyping/straw man construction and other dishonest tactics employed to express and support that disagreement?

If the purpose of this forum is for everyone to agree, then we all must surely stay off. It will never happen.

If this is a place for us to offer our thoughts, then we should jump in, knowing that everyone will not agree with us. And even if they disagree in a manner that we don't approve of, so what!!!!! Your options are limited, at best.

Just continue to offer your thoughts. You never know. You may convince someone!:)

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: Patricia

07-09-2010 @ 8:11pm

Actually, the explanation is rather simple - you have completely misunderstood what the President was saying. And, I don't believe you really want an explanation at all. I believe you hate the President, and you believe whatever distorted "gotcha" misinformation FOX feeds you. That's unfortunate.

And, lipids? We're talking about lipids here, now??? I have to admit I missed the point where we started discussing the relevance of cholesterol counts in this thread!

by: Patricia

07-09-2010 @ 8:11pm

Actually, the explanation is rather simple - you have completely misunderstood what the President was saying. And, I don't believe you really want an explanation at all. I believe you hate the President, and you believe whatever distorted "gotcha" misinformation FOX feeds you. That's unfortunate.

And, lipids? We're talking about lipids here, now??? I have to admit I missed the point where we started discussing the relevance of cholesterol counts in this thread!

by: Patricia

07-11-2010 @ 6:28am

Actually, no, it hasn't occurred to me that my words may be viewed by "some" as "lying/attacking/distorting/misinforming/stereotyping/straw man construction and other dishonest tactics..." because I do not lie, I do not personally attack, I do not distort, I do not misinform, I do not stereotype and I do not engage in straw man arguments. I get a little sarcastic sometimes, but when that happens, I apologize and edit my posts.

A great friend of mine has a wonderful attitude: "What other people think about me or say about me is none of my business." If my words ever ARE viewed that way by "someone", then it's their responsibility to bring it to my attention, ask for clarification, ask for documentation. I am always happy to provide my sources.

No one has said that the purpose of this forum is for everyone to agree. I have found that many people who rely on the tactics I described above, and get called out for them, complain that disagreement is not tolerated here. That is simply, factually, documentably not true. MANY people disagree here. What is not tolerated is very clearly described in the COC. If those who disagree cannot do so without violating that code, then I believe they ought to find a different outlet for their "disagreements."

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: BBush

07-09-2010 @ 11:01pm

Why does it seem a regular or semi-regular occurance on this site that when someone offers their ideas and thoughts that don't necessarily agree with the overall philospohy of this site, that the term Hate (or some form thereof) is almost invariably applied to the person offering their thoughts?

I find that most unfortunate.

by: BBush

07-09-2010 @ 11:01pm

Why does it seem a regular or semi-regular occurance on this site that when someone offers their ideas and thoughts that don't necessarily agree with the overall philospohy of this site, that the term Hate (or some form thereof) is almost invariably applied to the person offering their thoughts?

I find that most unfortunate.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:51pm

Because some are deliberately using semantics to obfuscate and confuse the real issue :)?

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:50pm

Don't you think you're making an awful lot of assumptions about Mr Wallis, heart, mind, soul, and intent?

You've REALLY never "seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ"? Or his witness has never met the standard you, another fallen, flawed member of humanity have constructed and demanded he meet?

I would love to hear how you live a totally oil-free existence - it might help me with some ideas for my own quest. Seriously.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: Patricia

07-10-2010 @ 8:20pm

It probably seems that way to you because you can't tell the difference between disagreement with overall philosophy, and lying/attacking/distorting/misinforming/stereotyping/straw man construction and other dishonest tactics employed to express and support that disagreement.

I find that extremely unfortunate, especially since it appears to be so deliberate.

Unfortunate, yes...unexpected, no.

by: Patricia

07-10-2010 @ 8:20pm

It probably seems that way to you because you can't tell the difference between disagreement with overall philosophy, and lying/attacking/distorting/misinforming/stereotyping/straw man construction and other dishonest tactics employed to express and support that disagreement.

I find that extremely unfortunate, especially since it appears to be so deliberate.

Unfortunate, yes...unexpected, no.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 8:56pm

skoopsl8

I believe you might have something.

What you're saying is that "distorting the intended meaning" means that taking words at their face value is not what this is about. It's really about saying one thing but meaning another. And only the initiated can decipher the code language.

This is nothing more than classic casuistry and facilitation, the modus operandi of charlatans.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:51pm

Because some are deliberately using semantics to obfuscate and confuse the real issue :)?

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by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 12:01am

Mr Wallis,
You're asking me to repent? No, you're saying that I must repent!

I find this incredible. I and my human folly am responsible for not only this oil spill but American dependence on oil? And I must repent?

I must admit an extreme amount of incredulity.

I also must admit that I find it hard to believe that your basis for calling on me to repent is an individual's recitation of their suffering as a result of the spill. I know you have met others and have also listened to their plight and have seen the conditions. I know that this has drastically changed the lives of many.

But to expect me to repent?

Seeing that your personal addiction to oil transported you to the gulf and is moving you around the area and taking you out to sea, not to mention helping you to perform many other small daily tasks while there, do you find it kind of ironic that you are making this call to repentance?

I'll make a deal with you.

When you repent yourself and rid yourself of your oil addiction by eliminating all oil in your life, then I will listen.

Until then your call to repentance is empty and without any moral or spiritual substance, not to mention any biblical basis.

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: duhsciple

07-08-2010 @ 1:13am

Lord, send your love and grace upon Kevin and his family. Move us to find ways to meet the concrete needs of those suffering from this oil gushing tragedy.

Transform our hearts so that we repent of our "more, more, more, upward mobility idolatrous greed" lifestyle. May I repent from looking down upon others and blaming them without taking responsibility myself.

Help me to see today how I might preserve the resources of your good earth for the blessing of generous to come. May our great-grandchildren enjoy the beauty and the bounty of your amazing creation. May we remember that we own nothing and that all creation belongs to you.

Shape us into the image of your Son, the true Human Being, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 12:13pm

"It is not enough for any of us to be sad, feel guilty, or say that we are sorry. We must repent. That means we have to turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path. We need to turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet."

How did you travel to the gulf region? Was it by an oil fueled airliner? Do you feel sad or guilty about it? Are you repenting of your addiction to travel and the use of oil?

How are you traveling around the gulf? With oil fueled transportation? How was the boat powered? With oil?

Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.

Have you entered the kingdom or are you still striving to enter it? If you think you have entered the kingdom, how did you do it? Was it by doing what you think is right? Or was it an act of God?

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 2:07pm

BBush, NC77:
How much easier it is to charge hypocrisy rather than acknowledge the very real problem and begin to take ownership of our biblical responsibility for good stewardship. Your black/white, all-or-nothing arguments are typical of the attitude that so permeates (and distorts) discussion of important issues that affect billions of lives.
Being good stewards of Creation does not mean we must abandon all use of fossil fuels. It means we must use them more efficiently and we must find alternatives that are less harmful to the planet.
Jim Wallis probably used fossil fuels to travel to (and in) the Gulf. He shared his experience with millions of us, thus informing us of the situation while eliminating our need to see the it for ourselves. He SAVED millions of barrels of oil by sharing what he observed. This is efficient use of resources. But your focus on Mr. Wallis' use of fossil fuels is a red herring that allows you to avoid the real issue.
Good stewardship of God's creation is a biblical mandate. I pray those who refuse to acknowledge the problem will take their heads out of the (oily) sand and listen to God. Only then will we be able to solve the problem rather than argue over petty politics.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 2:19pm

This is another part of the problem - charging those who are concerned with our oil addiction with being hypocrites because they also use fossil fuel products.

Of course we are not going to completely stop using fossil fuels. Every analogy has its limits, and the addiction analogy is no different. An addict has to completely stop using the substance or stop the behavior. No rational person thinks that's going to happen with fossil fuels any time in the foreseeable future.

BUT -

To refuse to question, to refuse to even consider where we may realistically cut back our use, to refuse to consider how to prioritize our use so those fuels are only used when really needed and other alternatives are used otherwise, to shut down thinking and dialogue by pointing the finger at someone else's use - none of that is helping move us to where we need to go. Here in this world, OR in our journey to the kingdom.

If a teacher is a flawed creation, as are we all, does that automatically allow us to dismiss the possible truth of the teaching? We're not saints yet. Do we require sainthood on earth before we choose to heed?

How do you know that Mr Wallis did not think and pray long and hard about balancing the use of fossil fuels with being present to pray with and for those hurting near the Gulf? With helping those people tell their stories by witnessing with them?

As long as all we do regarding our "addiction" to fossil fuels is cast stones at others while we blithely continue to use as if nothing has happened to give us theh slightest pause, we will not be able to open our hearts and minds to the change we need to make to fulfill our call to be good stewards of God's creation.

I believe we need a lot more prayer and self-soul searching. And, instead of pointing out the fuel use of others, we need to commit ourselves to radical change and to actually doing the things we are capable of doing - carpooling, advocating for public transit, reducing, reusing, and recycling our petroleum-based products, being more energy-efficient in our homes, walking more, etc. When I am truly doing absolutely everything I can to reduce MY use of fossil fuels, THEN I will be "righteous" enough start calling out others on theirs.

It's the old mite and beam thing, again.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:18pm

So now, all of a sudden, it's not repent of your addiction. Instead, it's reduce your addiction? We're not supposed to "turn away from our addiction to oil that has hurt our neighbors and the planet". But we should exercise our addiction responsibly?

So, we're not supposed to eliminate our "human folly", just reduce it?

Now, we're not supposed to " turn away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path". Instead, we clean up our act on the same path and act more responsible?

Suddenly, "repent" has a new meaning. Maybe I took it out of it's context?:)

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: NC77

07-08-2010 @ 5:21pm

Patricia,

I am not addicted to oil, and so I can point out the hypocrisy.

Here is the problem.

I have never seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ. I have never heard Wallis confuse his sins, it is always "our" sins. When one stands before God, that person alone will be accountable for their own actions.

To say one is a Christian and preach a secular, huministic, socialistic remedy to man's problems is in my opinion immoral in itself. Over forty years in "Christian" ministry and he still hasn't heard and responded to God about the state of his soul?

A week or two ago Wallis commented on how scripturally illiterate this county is becoming. In my opinion he proves this to be true himself.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 5:26pm

I'll try again: It is not an either/or, black-and-white issue. It is a stewardship issue. Gluttony is a sin, but that doesn't mean we must fast all our lives. Moderation is called for. Why not quit getting hung up on the semantics and begin thinking about the real issue?

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 5:42pm

Semantics?

I thought words have particular meaning. And when clear statements are presented, are we not to take them for what they plainly say?

Jim Wallis mentioned nothing about adjustments. He said "repent".
He spoke about a "new Path", not the same one. He said we need to "turn away from our addiction", not approach it with a new attitude. He says to turn away from the "addiction that has hurt our neighbors and the planet", not just reduce our injury to our neighbors and planet.

Give Mr Wallis credit for plainly meaning what he plainly wrote. If that's not what he meant, then a significant clarification is in order.

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: Ngchen

07-08-2010 @ 6:23pm

Well, the issue is what we mean by "addiction," namely addiction to fossil fuels.

I will submit that the difference between simply being a user of such fuels, and being addicted to them is as follows.
The user does not consume a disproportionate fraction of the fuel; the addict does (USA has 5% of world's population, yet uses like 25-30% of its oil).
The user does not set up its society in a way where de facto cars are needed to go to work, school, and the like. The addict does.
The user gets hurt when oil prices spike; the addict gets "destroyed," in that it's always the other things that get cut in the family budget, perhaps due to a lack of real choice. (Witness what happened when we had $4-$5/gal gas only a little while ago.)

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: skoopsl8

07-08-2010 @ 6:25pm

Yes, words do have specific meanings. It is unfortunate that you fail (or simply refuse) to grasp them (or perhaps, more accurately, distort their intended meaning). "Turn(ing) away from the way things have been and move forward on a new path" means we must be better stewards and develop alternative, renewable, safe sources of energy. We must conserve. We must have more respect for God's creation and we must diminish the harm we cause to it and to our fellow creatures. Communication requires two willing participants: a message sender and a receiver. Mr. Wallis' words ring true for anyone who is willing to listen.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:50pm

Don't you think you're making an awful lot of assumptions about Mr Wallis, heart, mind, soul, and intent?

You've REALLY never "seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ"? Or his witness has never met the standard you, another fallen, flawed member of humanity have constructed and demanded he meet?

I would love to hear how you live a totally oil-free existence - it might help me with some ideas for my own quest. Seriously.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:50pm

Don't you think you're making an awful lot of assumptions about Mr Wallis, heart, mind, soul, and intent?

You've REALLY never "seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ"? Or his witness has never met the standard you, another fallen, flawed member of humanity have constructed and demanded he meet?

I would love to hear how you live a totally oil-free existence - it might help me with some ideas for my own quest. Seriously.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:50pm

Don't you think you're making an awful lot of assumptions about Mr Wallis, heart, mind, soul, and intent?

You've REALLY never "seen Wallis witness about salvation through Christ"? Or his witness has never met the standard you, another fallen, flawed member of humanity have constructed and demanded he meet?

I would love to hear how you live a totally oil-free existence - it might help me with some ideas for my own quest. Seriously.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:51pm

Because some are deliberately using semantics to obfuscate and confuse the real issue :)?

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:51pm

Because some are deliberately using semantics to obfuscate and confuse the real issue :)?

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 7:51pm

Because some are deliberately using semantics to obfuscate and confuse the real issue :)?

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 8:56pm

skoopsl8

I believe you might have something.

What you're saying is that "distorting the intended meaning" means that taking words at their face value is not what this is about. It's really about saying one thing but meaning another. And only the initiated can decipher the code language.

This is nothing more than classic casuistry and facilitation, the modus operandi of charlatans.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 8:56pm

skoopsl8

I believe you might have something.

What you're saying is that "distorting the intended meaning" means that taking words at their face value is not what this is about. It's really about saying one thing but meaning another. And only the initiated can decipher the code language.

This is nothing more than classic casuistry and facilitation, the modus operandi of charlatans.

by: BBush

07-08-2010 @ 8:56pm

skoopsl8

I believe you might have something.

What you're saying is that "distorting the intended meaning" means that taking words at their face value is not what this is about. It's really about saying one thing but meaning another. And only the initiated can decipher the code language.

This is nothing more than classic casuistry and facilitation, the modus operandi of charlatans.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 10:36pm

Well, based on previous comments and the response you've received, I would say "deliberately distort their intended meaning" is spot on :).

Returning to the real issue...

I am praying that this incident will truly be the wake-up call that inspires us to finally acknowledge our need to repent, and galvanizes us to do so, and to move forward on a new path. It becomes difficult sometimes to sustain hope trying to do the right thing in virtual isolation. I am praying that, not just as citizens, but as Christians, with active, sustained, prophetic, meaningful leadership from our churches, we will finally develop significant momentum for ALL of us to work together and get moving on that path.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 10:36pm

Well, based on previous comments and the response you've received, I would say "deliberately distort their intended meaning" is spot on :).

Returning to the real issue...

I am praying that this incident will truly be the wake-up call that inspires us to finally acknowledge our need to repent, and galvanizes us to do so, and to move forward on a new path. It becomes difficult sometimes to sustain hope trying to do the right thing in virtual isolation. I am praying that, not just as citizens, but as Christians, with active, sustained, prophetic, meaningful leadership from our churches, we will finally develop significant momentum for ALL of us to work together and get moving on that path.

by: Patricia

07-08-2010 @ 10:36pm

Well, based on previous comments and the response you've received, I would say "deliberately distort their intended meaning" is spot on :).

Returning to the real issue...

I am praying that this incident will truly be the wake-up call that inspires us to finally acknowledge our need to repent, and galvanizes us to do so, and to move forward on a new path. It becomes difficult sometimes to sustain hope trying to do the right thing in virtual isolation. I am praying that, not just as citizens, but as Christians, with active, sustained, prophetic, meaningful leadership from our churches, we will finally develop significant momentum for ALL of us to work together and get moving on that path.

by: kansasmennonite

07-08-2010 @ 11:12pm

Go spread your hate somewhere else, please!

by: kansasmennonite

07-08-2010 @ 11:12pm

Go spread your hate somewhere else, please!

by: kansasmennonite

07-08-2010 @ 11:12pm

Go spread your hate somewhere else, please!

by: kansasmennonite

07-08-2010 @ 11:14pm

What's your purpose here? Can you do better than spread your hate toward Jim?

by: kansasmennonite

07-08-2010 @ 11:14pm

What's your purpose here? Can you do better than spread your hate toward Jim?