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The Implications of Calling Cordoba House a "Mosque"

Islam did not attack America on Sept. 11 -- terrorists did. Peace-loving, law-abiding American Muslims suffered losses as great on 9-11 and in the months that followed as any honored with the moniker "9-11 families." Not only did Muslims lose loved ones in the towers and as passengers on the planes that crashed that fateful day, but they also suffered the psychic trauma of all Americans. Furthermore, their losses were compounded by the absurd demonization of persons perceived to be Muslim, which resulted in a dramatic rise in random hate crimes, racial profiling, indiscriminate detention, and extraordinary rendition. Now, nine years later, American Muslims suffer by being branded unworthy of First Amendment rights because murderers once perpetrated unspeakable acts in blasphemy of the Muslim faith.

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All the hoopla over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" is yet another example of right-wingers' ability to "mis-name" people, places, and issues to effectively advance their own agendas. A mosque isn't being proposed for Ground Zero; more accurately, the Cordoba House is a community center, to be built at 51 Park Place (multiple blocks away from Ground Zero) by an organization currently located across the street at 45 Park Place that has been serving that community for years. Yet because of some persons' ability to 'mis-name' people, places, and issues to advance their own agendas, these very real facts have become matters of dispute. So much so that the web editorial staff of Sojourners and I had to reinvestigate and come to terms with the veracity of my simple claim that what's being proposed is not actually a mosque.

Our research uncovered that in English "mosque" is used to connote any Muslim place of worship, whereas in Arabic a distinction is made between the size and function of mosques. So true to the stereotype of being generally uninterested in how other cultures speak of themselves, English-speakers seem to have conflated all places Islamic for linguistic convenience. It's equivalent to calling all places having to do with Christian prayer -- i.e. gardens, chapels, retreats, convents, monasteries -- "churches."

It's not altogether inaccurate in each instance, but there is value in more precise language. Moreover, we discovered that Park 51, the name of the community center under dispute, is a multi-purpose facilitate that will house a gym, an auditorium, a restaurant and culinary school, a library, art studios, child care, prayer/contemplation/worship space and a memorial for those who lost their lives on 9-11. All facilities will be open to the public, not just Muslims. We also found that the man behind Park 51, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is the furthest thing from an opponent of Western culture, arguing in his most recent book that America is what an ideal Islamic society would look like because it is pluralistic and peaceful.

All this was great information to have, but as Jeannie (web editor for Sojourners) and I discussed the matter, it occurred to us that the facts weren't getting us any closer to the truth. The truth is that the real damage done by those so adept at ginning up such controversies is that they succeed in taking perfectly innocuous (yea, even noble) terms like "mosque" and defaming them to the point that the mere mention of the word conjures up anxiety. The real issue is not what the prayer facilities of Park 51 are called, but rather that by making so much of it, the very word "mosque," and by extension, anything having to do with Islam, become disqualified and despised in the public square.

Thankfully, America has a Bill of Rights that protects against such erosions of liberty. Yet the underlying nativist renegotiation of our nation's best intuitions as articulated in this debate and the one over the Fourteenth Amendment is troubling. If Americans allow ourselves to be led any further down this road, we may find ourselves in such an emotive and irrational place that good sense and common decency can't redeem us. As Keith Olbermann pointed out:

"'They came first for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me, and by that time, no one was left to speak up." [Quoted from German theologian and Lutheran pastor Martin Niemoller.] ... Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust; he was warning of the willingness of a seemingly rational society to condone the gradual stoking of enmity towards an ethnic or religious group or more than one; warning of the building up of a collective pool of national fear and hate; warning of the moment when the need to purge outstrips even the parameters of the original scapegoating, when new victims are needed because a country has begun to run on a horrible fuel of hatred magnified, amplified, multiplied by politicians and zealots within government and without. Niemoller was not warning of a holocaust: He was warning of the thousand steps before a holocaust became inevitable.

We pray often, "God bless America," but if we spurn those blessings -- the blessings of our best intuitions, the blessings of each other -- with what are we left?

Melvin BrayMelvin Bray is coordinating author of Stories in Which We Find Ourselves, a 'post-ism' Bible story project. He is also one of many hosts of 2010 Emergent Village Theological Conversation: Creating Liberated Spaces in a Post-Colonial World -- November 1-3, 2010. If you were interested in the "Is the Emerging Church for Whites Only?" article, you'll definitely be interested in this conversation.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: melvinbray

08-19-2010 @ 12:52am

joel225A and libmodcon, please see my apology which i will post to you and others as a separate comment.

by: melvinbray

08-19-2010 @ 12:52am

joel225A and libmodcon, please see my apology which i will post to you and others as a separate comment.

by: SamHamilton

08-19-2010 @ 2:04am

Good questions. I've yet to hear a good answer to the first one.

by: kansasmennonite

08-21-2010 @ 2:51am

Jay Sekulow is trying to stop the building. Is this not clear enough? He is going to find something whereas he can accomplish his goal. Is this not clear? Jay prides himself on selling hate and fear. This is clear in his plea for money and how he accomplishes it. The group wants to use ANY and ALL legal means.

Real funny bringing up the smelt. This whole anti Muslim sentiment is kinda fishy smelling isn't it?

BTW: what does aclj have to do with the area in question? Is he a nieghbor to he historic building? It sounds like he's just causing trouble. Not at all concerned about preserving the building-just keeping the Muslims down.

by: SamHamilton

08-19-2010 @ 2:04am

Good questions. I've yet to hear a good answer to the first one.

by: kansasmennonite

08-21-2010 @ 2:51am

Jay Sekulow is trying to stop the building. Is this not clear enough? He is going to find something whereas he can accomplish his goal. Is this not clear? Jay prides himself on selling hate and fear. This is clear in his plea for money and how he accomplishes it. The group wants to use ANY and ALL legal means.

Real funny bringing up the smelt. This whole anti Muslim sentiment is kinda fishy smelling isn't it?

BTW: what does aclj have to do with the area in question? Is he a nieghbor to he historic building? It sounds like he's just causing trouble. Not at all concerned about preserving the building-just keeping the Muslims down.

by: SamHamilton

08-19-2010 @ 1:59am

I appreciate your response Melvin. I don't like the attempts to make mosque a dirty word either. Mosques are simply houses of worship for Muslims and shouldn't be feared by Americans.

By the way, for me, it wasn't the term "right-winger" that was offensive, but the implication that it's only right-wingers or conservatives who misname things for political gain or to scare people. People of all political stripes do it. I agree with you that it should be discouraged.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 4:41am

"Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence"

Interesting perspective. I find this view often on secular blogs where athesist proudly put down Christian beliefs from a liberal secular perspective, but yet still place Muslim American citizens as better people as Christians in general . The same here but of course not including the more more religious , enligtened and obvious sincerity of the writer here . '0)

My point is of course when we learn to speak on eye level , their tends to me more room for a discussion.

by: kansasmennonite

08-21-2010 @ 2:51am

Jay Sekulow is trying to stop the building. Is this not clear enough? He is going to find something whereas he can accomplish his goal. Is this not clear? Jay prides himself on selling hate and fear. This is clear in his plea for money and how he accomplishes it. The group wants to use ANY and ALL legal means.

Real funny bringing up the smelt. This whole anti Muslim sentiment is kinda fishy smelling isn't it?

BTW: what does aclj have to do with the area in question? Is he a nieghbor to he historic building? It sounds like he's just causing trouble. Not at all concerned about preserving the building-just keeping the Muslims down.

by: SamHamilton

08-19-2010 @ 1:59am

I appreciate your response Melvin. I don't like the attempts to make mosque a dirty word either. Mosques are simply houses of worship for Muslims and shouldn't be feared by Americans.

By the way, for me, it wasn't the term "right-winger" that was offensive, but the implication that it's only right-wingers or conservatives who misname things for political gain or to scare people. People of all political stripes do it. I agree with you that it should be discouraged.

by: BlueDeacon

08-19-2010 @ 3:58am

It would be similar to a building that might house a Christian chapel. You can interpret that any way you want.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 5:02am

Thanks Melvin . Apology accepted . No reasoning can justify the miss treatment of Muslims . But was interesting to see those defending one group for being stereotyped launching pejoratives and defending depictions that justify their own prejudices . part of the reason this got out of hand was the inability to do anything but cry bigot tat could overcome the concerns of so many people . Why because so many people are allowed to have concerns and emotions in this great country . They are allowed to voice them over religious matters also, unlike many countries in the Middle East and elsewhere.

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 4:52am

Mosque and/or Islamic center construction proposals are being opposed
in several parts of the country. I saw a report recently (can't say
where or I'd link it) that illustrated current protests against mosques
in Tennessee (and I thought it was Murfreesboro, not Nashville; maybe
there's a proposal and a protest in both cities), Wisconsin, and
somewhere on the west coast, not to mention this proposal in lower
Manhattan. And recall reading or hearing of opposition in the past
(especially since 9-11) to Islamic schools, mosques, cultural centers in
other locations. I seem to remember especially on in northern Virginia
that attracted a lot of opposition.

Mosque construction is opposed consistently across the country. The
protests used to be about parking capacity, noise, zoning laws, and
"nuisance" violations of adjacent properties (panoramic view, etc.).

Now it's right out-flat "False god" and "They deny Jesus" and "It's just
a terrorist haven." No attempt whatever to mask religious prejudice
with some "secular" concern.

But we don't expect anything else, and the animosity does nothing but
strengthen our faith. The motivations for it are spelled out in the
Qur'an, and our reaction is more one of pity for people whose faith is
so weak that Islam "threatens" it. Their faith certainly doesn't
threaten ours.

by: America4Him

08-21-2010 @ 4:10am

Would it be Honorable for a Confederate organization representing the South, to build a community center across the street from the battle of Gettysburg? Or the Cemetery loaded with soldiers who died in the civil war, where Abraham Lincoln declared freedom for all! Of course not! Dear Melvin, Brother in Christ who's Honor are you defending? This battle belongs to the Lord! Gal. 5:16-26

by: scat

08-21-2010 @ 3:57am

Reply to SamHamilton -- the reply function doesn't seem to be working -- surprise, surprise!
There is a large part of our population that walks around in a perpetual fog of lies and fantasy, fed by the mouth flappers on radio and tv who couln't care less about truth. It's all about ratings and they constantly have to keep things stirred up sopeople willstay tuned. Thus, a simple,clear statement becomes contorversial when edited accordingly. Now a week after the intial statement by Obama, even the righties are saying of course we all agree that freedom of religion gives all religions the same rights, and we should respect other's rights.
Obama's second statement was to the effect that he would not judge or comment on the wisdom of those who proposed building this center. Two different things.
Those who relish tidbits of misinformation to feed their own perverted ideas will never allow the truth penetrate their heads and upset thier applecart. No matter how elermentary the lesson. President Obama is accustomed to teaching to motivated grad students and now you would have him cast his commnets in terms that would penetrate the thick walls of voluntary ignorance.
My gripe is largely with the state of journalism today that seems to hire people who are photogenic rather than educated and intelligent. The news readers are charged with keeping things exciting so that people will tune rather than watching Animal Planet. It is the media that is charged with informing us, but too often they are misleading us. Even when they clearly know better,they frame an event in terms of a controversy . And too many people are so used to hearing lies, they just accept it as a way of life.

by: Ankaboot

08-26-2010 @ 9:43am

I hear you saying that you condemn murder, mass murder, and genocide based upon your faith.

No, I say that my faith condemns those things, and my heart is in agreement.

It sounds like you may hold something like this position, provided I've been more clear this time.

Everything you mention is included in what I've said.

Do you hold a "pro-life-of-Others-who-are-different-from-us" based on your Muslim faith while I hold it based upon my Christ-centered faith?

No, I find my position in my heart and my faith affirms it. I cannot adopt something from which my heart turns away, but I have found God's Word to affirm what my heart holds dear, and to inform me of things I had never considered that also satisfy my heart's desires. My faith strengthens my heart, it does not weaken it by demanding that I adopt what my heart knows is not right.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 4:41am

"Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence"

Interesting perspective. I find this view often on secular blogs where athesist proudly put down Christian beliefs from a liberal secular perspective, but yet still place Muslim American citizens as better people as Christians in general . The same here but of course not including the more more religious , enligtened and obvious sincerity of the writer here . '0)

My point is of course when we learn to speak on eye level , their tends to me more room for a discussion.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 4:41am

"Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence"

Interesting perspective. I find this view often on secular blogs where athesist proudly put down Christian beliefs from a liberal secular perspective, but yet still place Muslim American citizens as better people as Christians in general . The same here but of course not including the more more religious , enligtened and obvious sincerity of the writer here . '0)

My point is of course when we learn to speak on eye level , their tends to me more room for a discussion.

by: BlueDeacon

08-19-2010 @ 3:58am

It would be similar to a building that might house a Christian chapel. You can interpret that any way you want.

by: duhsciple

08-20-2010 @ 12:34pm

I may be duh, but I know that mosques exist. Repeat question: are mosques being opposed period right now or this only this one specifically? It sounds like there are at least two mosques being opposed right now: NYC and Nashville. Is that the extent of the opposition?

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 4:52am

Mosque and/or Islamic center construction proposals are being opposed
in several parts of the country. I saw a report recently (can't say
where or I'd link it) that illustrated current protests against mosques
in Tennessee (and I thought it was Murfreesboro, not Nashville; maybe
there's a proposal and a protest in both cities), Wisconsin, and
somewhere on the west coast, not to mention this proposal in lower
Manhattan. And recall reading or hearing of opposition in the past
(especially since 9-11) to Islamic schools, mosques, cultural centers in
other locations. I seem to remember especially on in northern Virginia
that attracted a lot of opposition.

Mosque construction is opposed consistently across the country. The
protests used to be about parking capacity, noise, zoning laws, and
"nuisance" violations of adjacent properties (panoramic view, etc.).

Now it's right out-flat "False god" and "They deny Jesus" and "It's just
a terrorist haven." No attempt whatever to mask religious prejudice
with some "secular" concern.

But we don't expect anything else, and the animosity does nothing but
strengthen our faith. The motivations for it are spelled out in the
Qur'an, and our reaction is more one of pity for people whose faith is
so weak that Islam "threatens" it. Their faith certainly doesn't
threaten ours.

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 5:25am

It would be much more correct to say that Wahhabism, the form of
Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, is intolerant. Wahhabism is not
accepted by most Muslims outside the desert kingdom.

Practiced publicly in Saudi Arabia. And the neo-Salafi Wahhabi
parties are intolerant of everyone else, including other muslims.

The very reason this proposed community center is being called
Cordoba House demonstrates the inaccuracy of your observation. It is
being named after the city in Spain where, during the Middle Ages when
the Arab Moors occupied Iberia, a remarkable degree of religious freedom
and tolerance was practiced. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all got along
tolerably well. So it's simply incorrect to label Islam as a whole
intolerant.

Thank you. But I doubt whether you'll change what is obviously a "party
line" espoused by our friend to whom you've given these well-established
facts.

by: Charles Kiker

06-20-2011 @ 8:28am

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 7, Charles Kiker sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Charles Kiker's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/npw...

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by: BlueDeacon

08-19-2010 @ 3:58am

It would be similar to a building that might house a Christian chapel. You can interpret that any way you want.

by: duhsciple

08-20-2010 @ 12:34pm

I may be duh, but I know that mosques exist. Repeat question: are mosques being opposed period right now or this only this one specifically? It sounds like there are at least two mosques being opposed right now: NYC and Nashville. Is that the extent of the opposition?

by: America4Him

08-21-2010 @ 4:10am

Would it be Honorable for a Confederate organization representing the South, to build a community center across the street from the battle of Gettysburg? Or the Cemetery loaded with soldiers who died in the civil war, where Abraham Lincoln declared freedom for all! Of course not! Dear Melvin, Brother in Christ who's Honor are you defending? This battle belongs to the Lord! Gal. 5:16-26

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 5:16am

Ankaboot: Islam is intolerant. It's an historical observation.

Then it's an observation of muslims and their interaction with invading
Christians, and nothing else. Churches and synagogues were renovated,
refurbished, and rebuilt by muslims all over the Arab muslim empire for
centuries, and most of them are still standing. The Jewish community in
Iran is the second-largest in the region (Israel being larger), and they
live under Torah Law, with their own court, administered by there own
rabbis, and announced to the world on their own 50,000-watt "Voice of
David" radio station.

How could you question it: is there a church in all of Saudi Arabia?

Yes, there's one in every gated residential community occupied by
VISITING Christians from other countries. They don't look like churches
you see in America, but they're churches just the same. Saudi
authorities turn a blind eye to this violation of a religious law
applicable only to Saudi Arabia and nowhere else in the muslim world.

Is there a Shinto shrine inside the Vatican? Do your churches have a
mosque inside them?

All of Arabia is a mosque. The Ka'aba at Mecca and the Mosque of the
Prophet at Madinah may not be visited by anyone but muslims, just as the
Holy of Holies in a Jewish Temple cannot be entered by anyone other than
the High Priest. But Christians, Jews, Hindus, and people of other
faiths and no faith at all visit Arabia all the time, and when they're
going to be there for a while, live in private compounds.

But muslims were not tremendously tolerant of Crusaders slaughtering
entire populations of places like Jerusalem. Can't imagine why.

by: Charles Kiker

06-20-2011 @ 8:28am

LinkedIn

------------

This is a reminder that on June 7, Charles Kiker sent you an invitation to become part of his or her professional network at LinkedIn.

Follow this link to accept Charles Kiker's invitation.

https://www.linkedin.com/e/7j4...

Signing up is free and takes less than a minute.

by: duhsciple

08-20-2010 @ 12:29pm

Reading the comments following my note, I am still confused. Is the opposition to this mosque specifically or to building any mosques in America period? When speaking of the tolerance or the intolerance of Islam, are these opinions based on actual face-to-face encounters with Muslims or third party information? As Christians, do we see this as a zero sum game, if the mosque gets built that means Christianity is losing? Is it possible to write another kind of story where it is a non-zero sum game? Might there be a way for Christians to win when Muslims win? Christians are are about love and Muslims are about peace when they are at their best, is there a way for us to both be at our best? Would that not be better?

I am looking for win-win, love-peace, as far as it is possible by me. What are you all looking for? Win-win? Or win-lose?

by: America4Him

08-21-2010 @ 4:10am

Would it be Honorable for a Confederate organization representing the South, to build a community center across the street from the battle of Gettysburg? Or the Cemetery loaded with soldiers who died in the civil war, where Abraham Lincoln declared freedom for all! Of course not! Dear Melvin, Brother in Christ who's Honor are you defending? This battle belongs to the Lord! Gal. 5:16-26

by: D Randolph Brehms

08-19-2010 @ 2:46pm

I find a supreme irony here in that the Gay and Lesbian Alliance can discriminate against religious organizations to the point of attempting to force Christians who don't believe that the life-style is in harmony with the bible, yet these same intolerant individual try to make a case in favor of a religious system that is so harshly discriminatory that in their stance toward woman and homosexuals, are so radical (even the moderate ones) somehow they can be tolerated on the grounds of "freedom of religion" while Christians who don't accept or believe that Homosexuality is right can be silenced and even possibly have their 501C tax exemption removed That is the direction things are going and have already gone in Canada! What a paradox! Perhaps those who are gay or lesbian would respond differently if they knew that in places where Islamic Sharia Law is in force their life style practices would merit them death. As far as building a Mosque I have no view on the matter, however a close examination of Muslim beliefs, even moderate ones should scare any freedom loving American to death. Gay, Lesbian or straight.

by: duhsciple

08-20-2010 @ 12:29pm

Reading the comments following my note, I am still confused. Is the opposition to this mosque specifically or to building any mosques in America period? When speaking of the tolerance or the intolerance of Islam, are these opinions based on actual face-to-face encounters with Muslims or third party information? As Christians, do we see this as a zero sum game, if the mosque gets built that means Christianity is losing? Is it possible to write another kind of story where it is a non-zero sum game? Might there be a way for Christians to win when Muslims win? Christians are are about love and Muslims are about peace when they are at their best, is there a way for us to both be at our best? Would that not be better?

I am looking for win-win, love-peace, as far as it is possible by me. What are you all looking for? Win-win? Or win-lose?

by: scat

08-21-2010 @ 3:57am

Reply to SamHamilton -- the reply function doesn't seem to be working -- surprise, surprise!
There is a large part of our population that walks around in a perpetual fog of lies and fantasy, fed by the mouth flappers on radio and tv who couln't care less about truth. It's all about ratings and they constantly have to keep things stirred up sopeople willstay tuned. Thus, a simple,clear statement becomes contorversial when edited accordingly. Now a week after the intial statement by Obama, even the righties are saying of course we all agree that freedom of religion gives all religions the same rights, and we should respect other's rights.
Obama's second statement was to the effect that he would not judge or comment on the wisdom of those who proposed building this center. Two different things.
Those who relish tidbits of misinformation to feed their own perverted ideas will never allow the truth penetrate their heads and upset thier applecart. No matter how elermentary the lesson. President Obama is accustomed to teaching to motivated grad students and now you would have him cast his commnets in terms that would penetrate the thick walls of voluntary ignorance.
My gripe is largely with the state of journalism today that seems to hire people who are photogenic rather than educated and intelligent. The news readers are charged with keeping things exciting so that people will tune rather than watching Animal Planet. It is the media that is charged with informing us, but too often they are misleading us. Even when they clearly know better,they frame an event in terms of a controversy . And too many people are so used to hearing lies, they just accept it as a way of life.

by: WaveTossed

08-19-2010 @ 12:45pm

Histrogeek wrote: "Once again, it is important to point out that the center is NOT on the site of the World Trade Center. There will (should whatever planning issues be finally resolved) a memorial of the attack, probably shortly there after designated a National Monument like the D.C. Mall.

"Cordoba House or Plan 51 is not going to be there. It's a few blocks away and there is no plan I have ever heard of to clear every section of Lower Manhattan affected or damaged on September 11."So why is it being called the Ground Zero Mosque by politicians and in the media? That is simply inaccurate in terms of both location and function. To say nothing of the inflammatory nature of such a statement."

Thanks so much for point this out. The Cordoba center is NOT being placed at Ground Zero, it is several blocks away. This false "controversy" is being exploited by those who want to take our minds away from our nation's real problems: lack of jobs, people losing their homes, the endless wars that are draining our budget, and other pressing concerns.

by: scat

08-21-2010 @ 3:57am

Reply to SamHamilton -- the reply function doesn't seem to be working -- surprise, surprise!
There is a large part of our population that walks around in a perpetual fog of lies and fantasy, fed by the mouth flappers on radio and tv who couln't care less about truth. It's all about ratings and they constantly have to keep things stirred up sopeople willstay tuned. Thus, a simple,clear statement becomes contorversial when edited accordingly. Now a week after the intial statement by Obama, even the righties are saying of course we all agree that freedom of religion gives all religions the same rights, and we should respect other's rights.
Obama's second statement was to the effect that he would not judge or comment on the wisdom of those who proposed building this center. Two different things.
Those who relish tidbits of misinformation to feed their own perverted ideas will never allow the truth penetrate their heads and upset thier applecart. No matter how elermentary the lesson. President Obama is accustomed to teaching to motivated grad students and now you would have him cast his commnets in terms that would penetrate the thick walls of voluntary ignorance.
My gripe is largely with the state of journalism today that seems to hire people who are photogenic rather than educated and intelligent. The news readers are charged with keeping things exciting so that people will tune rather than watching Animal Planet. It is the media that is charged with informing us, but too often they are misleading us. Even when they clearly know better,they frame an event in terms of a controversy . And too many people are so used to hearing lies, they just accept it as a way of life.

by: BlueDeacon

08-19-2010 @ 4:38pm

With all due respect, that's an overstatement. What's illegal in Canada (as a Canadian pastor who used to post here pointed out) is the singling out of homosexual conduct for special condemnation -- which, BTW, goes beyond the Scriptures. And Islam doesn't scare me in the least.

by: scat

08-19-2010 @ 5:40pm

hillbilly66 --".This entire issue would have never made it out of the local (NY) news if the right-wing press had not gotten hold of it and blew it out of proportion. It was a local issue, to be decided by local boards. But the Republicans saw an opportunity to exploit it when they saw an opportunity to exploit it for political gain."

You are right -- The right has tried to make this into somethin g it is not. Despite the clarity of President Obama's statements, they try to make them ambiguous. His first staement was clearly referring to constitutionsl rights, while his second statement was about good manners. No confusion,no back-tracking here. They try to make it into an argument that Obama is really a Muslim. All the while, truly important issues are being shoved to the back -- issues like aid for the 9/11 first responders, which the Republicans are unanimously against. And all the fuss is laced with suspicion and fear of Muslims in general. It's like the magician's slight of hand -- if you keep people focused on something else, something frightening, they won't notice what the magician is really up to.

I think the more important issue which deserves national discussion is the ease with which lies are used to sway opinion. Journalistic ethics of unbiased reporting have disappeared. The same people get caught in lie after lie, yet the public still listen to them.

by: Ankaboot

08-25-2010 @ 2:27am

I receive the verses where God orders the annihilation of Amalek or the Canaanites or whoever as an inspired account of our messed up understanding of God. Only in Jesus do we see the fullness of God's character revealed.

The Canaanites were comprised of numerous nations, among whom Amalek had harried the Children of Israel throughout their forty years wandering in the desert, and continued to raid Israeli encampments after Joshua took them across the River Jordan. After some hundreds of years of this, God, through the prophet Samuel, ordered Saul, who was then King of Israel, to annihilate Amalek, root and branch, along with their cattle and everything they owned. The order was for a complete erasure of Amalek from the land of the living, to leave only the memory of what had happened to them by God's command.

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. A "race" or a "tribe" is a kinship group, linked by blood lines. "Genocide" refers to the annihilation of a kinship group, not a group of people who share a life-style predisposition, religious or otherwise. Just as "deicide" has a very specific meaning, so does "genocide."

Israel is and always has been a kinship group. A "Jew" is someone who has the blood of Jacob running in their veins. Someone without that bloodline can be accepted into Israel as a "client" of a Jew, and will be treated as a "citizen" of Israel ~ but he is not considered to be "of" Israel, whereas his descendants from marriages that join his children to the bloodline of Jacob will be considered "of" Israel by virtue of their Jacobite blood. Thus Lemkin's term "genocide" is applicable to an attempt to destroy a population of Jews.

Murder of homosexuals, who are not characterized as a "kinship group" linked by blood ties, but simply by a lifestyle choice that distinguishes them from so-called "straight" people and is chosen by them as their identifying distinction from other people, is not "genocide." But because "genocide" has more "shock" value and is perceived as a particularly heinous instance of murder, some call deadly militance against homosexuals ~ whether or not there is any actual murder involved ~ a form of "genocide." It is not genocide, even where an entire population turns on the homosexuals among them and annihilates them completely. Such a case is distinguishable from the slaughters of a war only in the casus belli ~ the cause of the slaughter. It is mass murder in either case, but it is not "genocide" in either case.

I certainly count the murder of 2/3 Jews in Europe as genocide, the murder of Tutis (and some Hutus) in Rwanda as genocide, much of the killing in Sudan as genocide, the massacre of Armenians as genocide. However, I accept the word murder as well.

All those you mention targeted kinship groups. But you left out America's Red Man, the Indian Wars, which illustrate my point.

The wars against American Indians was not an instance of genocide. Annihilation of "The Indians" was not the aim or effect of those wars. There was no universal war against Indians as an extended kinship group (which we were), and my own tribe, the Wind River Shoshoni, welcomed the newly-arrived immigrants and cooperated in development of common lands, and have the distinction of one of our chiefs being commissioned as a federal officer and given honors for his contributions to the peace of the integration of the two peoples. Each "Indian war" was against a particular tribe or coalition of tribes, and some may be considered as "genocide" with respect to those tribes ~ those kinship groups ~ from which there were no survivors. But the treaties, the reservations, and the discrete existence of many tribes in our times, today, belie a description of the Indian Wars as "an American genocide."

My habit of using words that mean what I intend to say, and avoiding usages that attempt to make words mean more than (or less than, or the opposite of) what they say, has been twisted by certain people ~ not just in this forum ~ to try to put words in my mouth that would never be there, simply because what I say does not parrot their party line or meet the aims of the exaggerations, conflations, and other falisities of their propaganda.

Killing homosexuals because of their choice of lifestyle is murder. I condemn it. I have always condemned it. Killing people en masse because they belong to one or another kinship group is genocide. I condemn it. I have always condemned it. Enacting laws that do not come originally from God is arrogant rebellion, treason, insurrection, and a crime against humanity. I condemn it, I did not always condemn it, but it is perhaps the most serious error that people commit ~ taking the law into their own hands, to write their own in contradiction of the Laws God has given us for our benefit, leads only to tyranny and oppression, and to things like murder, mass murder, and genocide.

So don't be misled: I form my judgments and opinions using the Law of God, not my own imaginations of what is "fair" or "just." My judgments are statements of Islamic Law, or another Law such as the Torah or the Gospel (which amended former Torah Law as originally mandated by Torah Law) that came from God, or another law that came from God for a particular people while not constituting them as a distinct nation.

What I say about murder, mass murder, and genocide is a statement of muslim Law. That's my first work and profession, articulating Islam in American English.

Please don't let people with another agenda confuse you about what I say.

by: Neocon55

08-21-2010 @ 9:06am

The ACLJ is not the plaintiff. The plaintiff is a person who lost a family member on 9-11. The ACLJ is just the lawyer.

by: Ankaboot

08-25-2010 @ 2:27am

I receive the verses where God orders the annihilation of Amalek or the Canaanites or whoever as an inspired account of our messed up understanding of God. Only in Jesus do we see the fullness of God's character revealed.

The Canaanites were comprised of numerous nations, among whom Amalek had harried the Children of Israel throughout their forty years wandering in the desert, and continued to raid Israeli encampments after Joshua took them across the River Jordan. After some hundreds of years of this, God, through the prophet Samuel, ordered Saul, who was then King of Israel, to annihilate Amalek, root and branch, along with their cattle and everything they owned. The order was for a complete erasure of Amalek from the land of the living, to leave only the memory of what had happened to them by God's command.

In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of the European Jews. He formed the word "genocide" by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. A "race" or a "tribe" is a kinship group, linked by blood lines. "Genocide" refers to the annihilation of a kinship group, not a group of people who share a life-style predisposition, religious or otherwise. Just as "deicide" has a very specific meaning, so does "genocide."

Israel is and always has been a kinship group. A "Jew" is someone who has the blood of Jacob running in their veins. Someone without that bloodline can be accepted into Israel as a "client" of a Jew, and will be treated as a "citizen" of Israel ~ but he is not considered to be "of" Israel, whereas his descendants from marriages that join his children to the bloodline of Jacob will be considered "of" Israel by virtue of their Jacobite blood. Thus Lemkin's term "genocide" is applicable to an attempt to destroy a population of Jews.

Murder of homosexuals, who are not characterized as a "kinship group" linked by blood ties, but simply by a lifestyle choice that distinguishes them from so-called "straight" people and is chosen by them as their identifying distinction from other people, is not "genocide." But because "genocide" has more "shock" value and is perceived as a particularly heinous instance of murder, some call deadly militance against homosexuals ~ whether or not there is any actual murder involved ~ a form of "genocide." It is not genocide, even where an entire population turns on the homosexuals among them and annihilates them completely. Such a case is distinguishable from the slaughters of a war only in the casus belli ~ the cause of the slaughter. It is mass murder in either case, but it is not "genocide" in either case.

I certainly count the murder of 2/3 Jews in Europe as genocide, the murder of Tutis (and some Hutus) in Rwanda as genocide, much of the killing in Sudan as genocide, the massacre of Armenians as genocide. However, I accept the word murder as well.

All those you mention targeted kinship groups. But you left out America's Red Man, the Indian Wars, which illustrate my point.

The wars against American Indians was not an instance of genocide. Annihilation of "The Indians" was not the aim or effect of those wars. There was no universal war against Indians as an extended kinship group (which we were), and my own tribe, the Wind River Shoshoni, welcomed the newly-arrived immigrants and cooperated in development of common lands, and have the distinction of one of our chiefs being commissioned as a federal officer and given honors for his contributions to the peace of the integration of the two peoples. Each "Indian war" was against a particular tribe or coalition of tribes, and some may be considered as "genocide" with respect to those tribes ~ those kinship groups ~ from which there were no survivors. But the treaties, the reservations, and the discrete existence of many tribes in our times, today, belie a description of the Indian Wars as "an American genocide."

My habit of using words that mean what I intend to say, and avoiding usages that attempt to make words mean more than (or less than, or the opposite of) what they say, has been twisted by certain people ~ not just in this forum ~ to try to put words in my mouth that would never be there, simply because what I say does not parrot their party line or meet the aims of the exaggerations, conflations, and other falisities of their propaganda.

Killing homosexuals because of their choice of lifestyle is murder. I condemn it. I have always condemned it. Killing people en masse because they belong to one or another kinship group is genocide. I condemn it. I have always condemned it. Enacting laws that do not come originally from God is arrogant rebellion, treason, insurrection, and a crime against humanity. I condemn it, I did not always condemn it, but it is perhaps the most serious error that people commit ~ taking the law into their own hands, to write their own in contradiction of the Laws God has given us for our benefit, leads only to tyranny and oppression, and to things like murder, mass murder, and genocide.

So don't be misled: I form my judgments and opinions using the Law of God, not my own imaginations of what is "fair" or "just." My judgments are statements of Islamic Law, or another Law such as the Torah or the Gospel (which amended former Torah Law as originally mandated by Torah Law) that came from God, or another law that came from God for a particular people while not constituting them as a distinct nation.

What I say about murder, mass murder, and genocide is a statement of muslim Law. That's my first work and profession, articulating Islam in American English.

Please don't let people with another agenda confuse you about what I say.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 5:02am

Thanks Melvin . Apology accepted . No reasoning can justify the miss treatment of Muslims . But was interesting to see those defending one group for being stereotyped launching pejoratives and defending depictions that justify their own prejudices . part of the reason this got out of hand was the inability to do anything but cry bigot tat could overcome the concerns of so many people . Why because so many people are allowed to have concerns and emotions in this great country . They are allowed to voice them over religious matters also, unlike many countries in the Middle East and elsewhere.

by: SMRaleigh

08-20-2010 @ 2:01pm

Why not bring a typical American resolution? Raise money and buy the property from them, which will allow them to add funds to build this somewhere else. Isn't the free market what we worship? Hmm, maybe it is the guns. I get them confused.

by: Joel225A

08-19-2010 @ 5:02am

Thanks Melvin . Apology accepted . No reasoning can justify the miss treatment of Muslims . But was interesting to see those defending one group for being stereotyped launching pejoratives and defending depictions that justify their own prejudices . part of the reason this got out of hand was the inability to do anything but cry bigot tat could overcome the concerns of so many people . Why because so many people are allowed to have concerns and emotions in this great country . They are allowed to voice them over religious matters also, unlike many countries in the Middle East and elsewhere.

by: SMRaleigh

08-20-2010 @ 2:01pm

Why not bring a typical American resolution? Raise money and buy the property from them, which will allow them to add funds to build this somewhere else. Isn't the free market what we worship? Hmm, maybe it is the guns. I get them confused.

by: kansasmennonite

08-21-2010 @ 12:03pm

How convient. So this is their way into the fight. The aclj lost my respect years ago.

by: SMRaleigh

08-20-2010 @ 1:58pm

There are already other churches in the vicinity, both protestant and catholic, and even a mosque. This is all Nov. election day hype.

by: kansasmennonite

08-19-2010 @ 6:15pm

I said hate. Is your family in a "hate" mode? I assume they don't want the community center.

by: SMRaleigh

08-20-2010 @ 1:58pm

There are already other churches in the vicinity, both protestant and catholic, and even a mosque. This is all Nov. election day hype.

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 5:25am

It would be much more correct to say that Wahhabism, the form of
Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, is intolerant. Wahhabism is not
accepted by most Muslims outside the desert kingdom.

Practiced publicly in Saudi Arabia. And the neo-Salafi Wahhabi
parties are intolerant of everyone else, including other muslims.

The very reason this proposed community center is being called
Cordoba House demonstrates the inaccuracy of your observation. It is
being named after the city in Spain where, during the Middle Ages when
the Arab Moors occupied Iberia, a remarkable degree of religious freedom
and tolerance was practiced. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all got along
tolerably well. So it's simply incorrect to label Islam as a whole
intolerant.

Thank you. But I doubt whether you'll change what is obviously a "party
line" espoused by our friend to whom you've given these well-established
facts.

by: Ankaboot

08-21-2010 @ 5:25am

It would be much more correct to say that Wahhabism, the form of
Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, is intolerant. Wahhabism is not
accepted by most Muslims outside the desert kingdom.

Practiced publicly in Saudi Arabia. And the neo-Salafi Wahhabi
parties are intolerant of everyone else, including other muslims.

The very reason this proposed community center is being called
Cordoba House demonstrates the inaccuracy of your observation. It is
being named after the city in Spain where, during the Middle Ages when
the Arab Moors occupied Iberia, a remarkable degree of religious freedom
and tolerance was practiced. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all got along
tolerably well. So it's simply incorrect to label Islam as a whole
intolerant.

Thank you. But I doubt whether you'll change what is obviously a "party
line" espoused by our friend to whom you've given these well-established
facts.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

"Not only did Muslims lose loved ones in the towers and as passengers on the planes that crashed that fateful day, but they also suffered the psychic trauma of all Americans. Furthermore, their losses were compounded by the absurd demonization of persons perceived to be Muslim, which resulted in a dramatic rise in random hate crimes, racial profiling, indiscriminate detention, and extraordinary rendition."

Excellent, Melvin. Wouldn't this make "ground zero" just as sacred of a place to Muslims? Why wouldn't it be appropriate for them to erect a place of worship there?

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

"Not only did Muslims lose loved ones in the towers and as passengers on the planes that crashed that fateful day, but they also suffered the psychic trauma of all Americans. Furthermore, their losses were compounded by the absurd demonization of persons perceived to be Muslim, which resulted in a dramatic rise in random hate crimes, racial profiling, indiscriminate detention, and extraordinary rendition."

Excellent, Melvin. Wouldn't this make "ground zero" just as sacred of a place to Muslims? Why wouldn't it be appropriate for them to erect a place of worship there?

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

"Not only did Muslims lose loved ones in the towers and as passengers on the planes that crashed that fateful day, but they also suffered the psychic trauma of all Americans. Furthermore, their losses were compounded by the absurd demonization of persons perceived to be Muslim, which resulted in a dramatic rise in random hate crimes, racial profiling, indiscriminate detention, and extraordinary rendition."

Excellent, Melvin. Wouldn't this make "ground zero" just as sacred of a place to Muslims? Why wouldn't it be appropriate for them to erect a place of worship there?

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

Melvin, thanks for the post. We do not need to demonize all things Islamic. And Muslims should enjoy the same freedom of religion that Baptists do. Now, being picky picky picky, it's Martin (not Marcus) Niemoller.

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

Melvin, thanks for the post. We do not need to demonize all things Islamic. And Muslims should enjoy the same freedom of religion that Baptists do. Now, being picky picky picky, it's Martin (not Marcus) Niemoller.

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 4:43pm

Melvin, thanks for the post. We do not need to demonize all things Islamic. And Muslims should enjoy the same freedom of religion that Baptists do. Now, being picky picky picky, it's Martin (not Marcus) Niemoller.

by: jesse3

08-18-2010 @ 4:46pm

"All the hoopla over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" is yet another example of right-wingers' ability to "mis-name" people, places, and issues to effectively advance their own agendas."
--Why does Obama call it a "mosque" then? Is he a right-winger who is seeking to effectively advance his own agenda?

by: jesse3

08-18-2010 @ 4:46pm

"All the hoopla over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" is yet another example of right-wingers' ability to "mis-name" people, places, and issues to effectively advance their own agendas."
--Why does Obama call it a "mosque" then? Is he a right-winger who is seeking to effectively advance his own agenda?

by: jesse3

08-18-2010 @ 4:46pm

"All the hoopla over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" is yet another example of right-wingers' ability to "mis-name" people, places, and issues to effectively advance their own agendas."
--Why does Obama call it a "mosque" then? Is he a right-winger who is seeking to effectively advance his own agenda?

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:49pm

But Charles, then the Muslims would gain as much influence over the government that the Baptists now enjoy and then they would want to implement their intolerance onto the rest of the country--oh, that's already being done. Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence.

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:49pm

But Charles, then the Muslims would gain as much influence over the government that the Baptists now enjoy and then they would want to implement their intolerance onto the rest of the country--oh, that's already being done. Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence.

by: PASTOR JEFF

08-18-2010 @ 4:49pm

But Charles, then the Muslims would gain as much influence over the government that the Baptists now enjoy and then they would want to implement their intolerance onto the rest of the country--oh, that's already being done. Maybe what the baptist fundamentalists are really afraid of is that the Muslims will behave just as they do if given the influence.

by: melvinbray

08-18-2010 @ 4:54pm

Thanks so much, Charles! That's not being picky; that's being accurate. I appreciate you catching that.

by: melvinbray

08-18-2010 @ 4:54pm

Thanks so much, Charles! That's not being picky; that's being accurate. I appreciate you catching that.

by: melvinbray

08-18-2010 @ 4:54pm

Thanks so much, Charles! That's not being picky; that's being accurate. I appreciate you catching that.

by: Jennifer Mott Palermo

08-18-2010 @ 5:20pm

Check out the Imam's connection to Hamas. Do you consider Hamas a terrorist organization?

by: Jennifer Mott Palermo

08-18-2010 @ 5:20pm

Check out the Imam's connection to Hamas. Do you consider Hamas a terrorist organization?

by: Joel225A

08-18-2010 @ 5:47pm

Right melvin lets put anyone who disagrees into the right winger categories, insincere and of course with an agenda. That brings the level of conversation up to the level of who ? In fact go to some blogs from the left and added into this issue are politics of other kinds dealing with minorities and such . Go to the right and its the secret attempt to take over America .

Good grief

May I only add that there are many who see the Mosque as a reflection of their Faith I can see why they may be hurt by this . The best aspect of themselves , what motivates them to be better people , what is there when a loved one is murdered , like on 9/11 , or what is there when joy comes into their lives is linked to their place of worship.

Like the majority of Americans in this case , I see this as a hallowed land , not belionginfg to anyone one or any one religion , but to Americans . Perhaps those who so often feel the need to pint out America's faults may consider we still bond together during disasters . Had a great conversation with Dr Dixon on this , actually quite a good one . we disagreed , but an excellent point of hers was that we who are so concerned like myself that we treat this land like it is Hallowed, a national park of sorts and separated from religion , politics , etc . We should organize and buy the land . Muslims , Buddists, Christians , Jews, Athesists, and even Met Fans. Not a bad idea.

But I guess in America , those with the agendas do take over after the grief of tradegy pulls us together . Unfortunately that sadness and community spirit disd not belong to one religion or idealogy. When that occurs , you add all the other baggage of that idealogy into the picture, and you fail EXCEPT for that limited group your in .
May I add melvin its why thePresident shyed away from his fisrt comments. its an emotional issue of the heart , not just idealogy.

Indeed building a Mosque is a good thing in America , just not at a location so many have a need to feel it belongs to them . You editorial makes this more a divisive issue , one where there is loosers , one where there are winners, just what i believe , or hope those who originally supported this facility at Ground Zero were hoping to overcome .

by: Joel225A

08-18-2010 @ 5:47pm

Right melvin lets put anyone who disagrees into the right winger categories, insincere and of course with an agenda. That brings the level of conversation up to the level of who ? In fact go to some blogs from the left and added into this issue are politics of other kinds dealing with minorities and such . Go to the right and its the secret attempt to take over America .

Good grief

May I only add that there are many who see the Mosque as a reflection of their Faith I can see why they may be hurt by this . The best aspect of themselves , what motivates them to be better people , what is there when a loved one is murdered , like on 9/11 , or what is there when joy comes into their lives is linked to their place of worship.

Like the majority of Americans in this case , I see this as a hallowed land , not belionginfg to anyone one or any one religion , but to Americans . Perhaps those who so often feel the need to pint out America's faults may consider we still bond together during disasters . Had a great conversation with Dr Dixon on this , actually quite a good one . we disagreed , but an excellent point of hers was that we who are so concerned like myself that we treat this land like it is Hallowed, a national park of sorts and separated from religion , politics , etc . We should organize and buy the land . Muslims , Buddists, Christians , Jews, Athesists, and even Met Fans. Not a bad idea.

But I guess in America , those with the agendas do take over after the grief of tradegy pulls us together . Unfortunately that sadness and community spirit disd not belong to one religion or idealogy. When that occurs , you add all the other baggage of that idealogy into the picture, and you fail EXCEPT for that limited group your in .
May I add melvin its why thePresident shyed away from his fisrt comments. its an emotional issue of the heart , not just idealogy.

Indeed building a Mosque is a good thing in America , just not at a location so many have a need to feel it belongs to them . You editorial makes this more a divisive issue , one where there is loosers , one where there are winners, just what i believe , or hope those who originally supported this facility at Ground Zero were hoping to overcome .

by: squeaky

08-18-2010 @ 5:48pm

Please provide some sources that show that connection.

by: squeaky

08-18-2010 @ 5:48pm

Please provide some sources that show that connection.

by: rustys1

08-18-2010 @ 6:24pm

Conflation on this issue abounds!

Some conflate "mosque" and "community center" while others conflate "questioning the wisdom" with "rejection of a right to build" or "concern for the 911 victims" with "hating Muslims".

We would do well to have much less emotion and over-reaction on this issue (from all sides).

by: rustys1

08-18-2010 @ 6:24pm

Conflation on this issue abounds!

Some conflate "mosque" and "community center" while others conflate "questioning the wisdom" with "rejection of a right to build" or "concern for the 911 victims" with "hating Muslims".

We would do well to have much less emotion and over-reaction on this issue (from all sides).

by: histrogeek

08-18-2010 @ 6:33pm

Once again, it is important to point out that the center is NOT on the site of the World Trade Center. There will (should whatever planning issues be finally resolved) a memorial of the attack, probably shortly there after designated a National Monument like the D.C. Mall.
Cordoba House or Plan 51 is not going to be there. It's a few blocks away and there is no plan I have ever heard of to clear every section of Lower Manhattan affected or damaged on September 11.
So why is it being called the Ground Zero Mosque by politicians and in the media? That is simply inaccurate in terms of both location and function. To say nothing of the inflammatory nature of such a statement.

by: histrogeek

08-18-2010 @ 6:33pm

Once again, it is important to point out that the center is NOT on the site of the World Trade Center. There will (should whatever planning issues be finally resolved) a memorial of the attack, probably shortly there after designated a National Monument like the D.C. Mall.
Cordoba House or Plan 51 is not going to be there. It's a few blocks away and there is no plan I have ever heard of to clear every section of Lower Manhattan affected or damaged on September 11.
So why is it being called the Ground Zero Mosque by politicians and in the media? That is simply inaccurate in terms of both location and function. To say nothing of the inflammatory nature of such a statement.

by: histrogeek

08-18-2010 @ 6:33pm

Once again, it is important to point out that the center is NOT on the site of the World Trade Center. There will (should whatever planning issues be finally resolved) a memorial of the attack, probably shortly there after designated a National Monument like the D.C. Mall.
Cordoba House or Plan 51 is not going to be there. It's a few blocks away and there is no plan I have ever heard of to clear every section of Lower Manhattan affected or damaged on September 11.
So why is it being called the Ground Zero Mosque by politicians and in the media? That is simply inaccurate in terms of both location and function. To say nothing of the inflammatory nature of such a statement.

by: Lord_Voldemort

08-18-2010 @ 6:38pm

Mr. Bray,

There are churches that have gyms, kitchens, schools (for both religious and non-religious studies) and arts facilities attached to them. And yet they still are referred to, by congregants and others, as "churches", not "community centers".

I have always understood that mosques, like churches, are open to those who do not adhere to the faith.

We call Cordoba Center a mosque not out of some cynical PR strategy, but because, well, that's kinda what it is. And the fact that it is a mosque has consequences that cannot be negated by semantic prestedigitation.

Try again.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

08-18-2010 @ 6:38pm

Mr. Bray,

There are churches that have gyms, kitchens, schools (for both religious and non-religious studies) and arts facilities attached to them. And yet they still are referred to, by congregants and others, as "churches", not "community centers".

I have always understood that mosques, like churches, are open to those who do not adhere to the faith.

We call Cordoba Center a mosque not out of some cynical PR strategy, but because, well, that's kinda what it is. And the fact that it is a mosque has consequences that cannot be negated by semantic prestedigitation.

Try again.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

08-18-2010 @ 6:38pm

Mr. Bray,

There are churches that have gyms, kitchens, schools (for both religious and non-religious studies) and arts facilities attached to them. And yet they still are referred to, by congregants and others, as "churches", not "community centers".

I have always understood that mosques, like churches, are open to those who do not adhere to the faith.

We call Cordoba Center a mosque not out of some cynical PR strategy, but because, well, that's kinda what it is. And the fact that it is a mosque has consequences that cannot be negated by semantic prestedigitation.

Try again.

LV

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 6:44pm

I seriously doubt that a mosque would have non-Muslims on its governing board; yet Cordoba House does. That said, the plans would include a mosque, which makes quite a difference.

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 6:44pm

I seriously doubt that a mosque would have non-Muslims on its governing board; yet Cordoba House does. That said, the plans would include a mosque, which makes quite a difference.

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 6:44pm

I seriously doubt that a mosque would have non-Muslims on its governing board; yet Cordoba House does. That said, the plans would include a mosque, which makes quite a difference.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

Great piece Melvin. I love the wording, especially as it pertains to "mis-naming." Faith aside, the country that brought people by the millions with promises of religious freedom cannot seriously think it can put a "You Can't Build Here" sign on a piece property that is legally bought and sold with proper permits. I think this is a great opportunity for American's to see a Muslim community who by and large is take more charge of reconciliation for 9/11 than the Christian community.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

Great piece Melvin. I love the wording, especially as it pertains to "mis-naming." Faith aside, the country that brought people by the millions with promises of religious freedom cannot seriously think it can put a "You Can't Build Here" sign on a piece property that is legally bought and sold with proper permits. I think this is a great opportunity for American's to see a Muslim community who by and large is take more charge of reconciliation for 9/11 than the Christian community.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

Great piece Melvin. I love the wording, especially as it pertains to "mis-naming." Faith aside, the country that brought people by the millions with promises of religious freedom cannot seriously think it can put a "You Can't Build Here" sign on a piece property that is legally bought and sold with proper permits. I think this is a great opportunity for American's to see a Muslim community who by and large is take more charge of reconciliation for 9/11 than the Christian community.

by: WaveTossed

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

I still would like to know: how far away must the Cordoba Center be from Ground Zero in order to calm down this ruckus? Two blocks isn't far enough away? How about 3 blocke? 3 miles? 1,000 miles?

Perhaps the best way is to put a fence or some other sort of boundary around Ground Zero. And then forbid any sort of development there, whether it's a church, a mosque, a community center, a synagogue, Wal-Mart, or whatever. Only commemoratives directly related to the 9/11 attacks would be allowed within this boundary.

Then can we get back to discussing REAL problems. Such as the economy, the two never-ending wars?

by: WaveTossed

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

I still would like to know: how far away must the Cordoba Center be from Ground Zero in order to calm down this ruckus? Two blocks isn't far enough away? How about 3 blocke? 3 miles? 1,000 miles?

Perhaps the best way is to put a fence or some other sort of boundary around Ground Zero. And then forbid any sort of development there, whether it's a church, a mosque, a community center, a synagogue, Wal-Mart, or whatever. Only commemoratives directly related to the 9/11 attacks would be allowed within this boundary.

Then can we get back to discussing REAL problems. Such as the economy, the two never-ending wars?

by: WaveTossed

08-18-2010 @ 7:09pm

I still would like to know: how far away must the Cordoba Center be from Ground Zero in order to calm down this ruckus? Two blocks isn't far enough away? How about 3 blocke? 3 miles? 1,000 miles?

Perhaps the best way is to put a fence or some other sort of boundary around Ground Zero. And then forbid any sort of development there, whether it's a church, a mosque, a community center, a synagogue, Wal-Mart, or whatever. Only commemoratives directly related to the 9/11 attacks would be allowed within this boundary.

Then can we get back to discussing REAL problems. Such as the economy, the two never-ending wars?

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 7:29pm

I think I understand the spirit in which your comment is offered. As a
retired American Baptist minister, I offer the observation that not all
Baptists are fundamentalists anymore than all Muslims are jihadists.
Unfortunately for Baptists we who are not fundamentalists have been tarred
with that brush, just as Muslims have been tarred with the terroist brush.
Another observation, without Baptists we probably would not have had the
religion portion of the first amendment. Maybe Pastor Jeff is a Baptist? If
so, I apologize for what to you would be obvious.

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 7:29pm

I think I understand the spirit in which your comment is offered. As a
retired American Baptist minister, I offer the observation that not all
Baptists are fundamentalists anymore than all Muslims are jihadists.
Unfortunately for Baptists we who are not fundamentalists have been tarred
with that brush, just as Muslims have been tarred with the terroist brush.
Another observation, without Baptists we probably would not have had the
religion portion of the first amendment. Maybe Pastor Jeff is a Baptist? If
so, I apologize for what to you would be obvious.

by: Charles Kiker

08-18-2010 @ 7:29pm

I think I understand the spirit in which your comment is offered. As a
retired American Baptist minister, I offer the observation that not all
Baptists are fundamentalists anymore than all Muslims are jihadists.
Unfortunately for Baptists we who are not fundamentalists have been tarred
with that brush, just as Muslims have been tarred with the terroist brush.
Another observation, without Baptists we probably would not have had the
religion portion of the first amendment. Maybe Pastor Jeff is a Baptist? If
so, I apologize for what to you would be obvious.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:47pm

Hey Charles, I am not really familiar with the Baptist denomination. I would love to know some details on the connection between the Religion portion of the 1st Amendment and Baptism Church. Thanks for any help.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:47pm

Hey Charles, I am not really familiar with the Baptist denomination. I would love to know some details on the connection between the Religion portion of the 1st Amendment and Baptism Church. Thanks for any help.

by: Andy Franks

08-18-2010 @ 7:47pm

Hey Charles, I am not really familiar with the Baptist denomination. I would love to know some details on the connection between the Religion portion of the 1st Amendment and Baptism Church. Thanks for any help.

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 9:00pm

He is.

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 9:00pm

He is.

by: BlueDeacon

08-18-2010 @ 9:00pm

He is.

by: letjusticerolldown

08-18-2010 @ 9:12pm

Well, hey, Melvin--I guess I just drop any rational questions if the asking of a question means I am coming after the commies, Jews and you.

Does it occur to you that it has been mainstream news headlines that has done a huge amount of the conflation of all involved issues onto the "Ground Zero Mosque;" and that the manipulation and defining and spinning of this story is being done from multiple sides--and your piece likewise finds saints and demons--too simplistically to fit reality.

by: letjusticerolldown

08-18-2010 @ 9:12pm

Well, hey, Melvin--I guess I just drop any rational questions if the asking of a question means I am coming after the commies, Jews and you.

Does it occur to you that it has been mainstream news headlines that has done a huge amount of the conflation of all involved issues onto the "Ground Zero Mosque;" and that the manipulation and defining and spinning of this story is being done from multiple sides--and your piece likewise finds saints and demons--too simplistically to fit reality.

by: letjusticerolldown

08-18-2010 @ 9:12pm

Well, hey, Melvin--I guess I just drop any rational questions if the asking of a question means I am coming after the commies, Jews and you.

Does it occur to you that it has been mainstream news headlines that has done a huge amount of the conflation of all involved issues onto the "Ground Zero Mosque;" and that the manipulation and defining and spinning of this story is being done from multiple sides--and your piece likewise finds saints and demons--too simplistically to fit reality.