American Muslims Are Not Responsible for 9/11

Thanks for judging me Squeaky...

Can you tell me (or anyone for that matter, including Jim Wallis), if Obama has professed aloud that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior? All I could find is his statements:

"I submitted myself to his will and dedicated myself to discovering his truth." [Audacity of Hope, p.208, Chicago Sun Times, 4/5/04; AP 6/28/06]

Why not proclaim to the world "Jesus is my Lord and Savior"?

Deacon - He might have. Or maybe he didn't. But it's not the same thing as lying.

Actually, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is not a book of "prophecy" in that it doesn't necessarily tell of specific future events -- its original purpose was to encourage Jewish Christians who were suffering for the faith that, ultimately, Jesus would come to rule. Therefore, trying to figure out the identity of the "beast" or the "false prophet" represents a diversion from what John had in mind when he wrote down his visions.

Jesus was the Book. He himself, God's Word, become flesh and walking among us. Everything he did, everything he said, was God's Word.

To Israel, that Word was "Messiah." His mere existence among them in the flesh, living, breathing, walking, talking, descended from Levi and Judah, born of a woman, a son of Israel, was the Command from God to Israel to do that which God had prepared them for a thousand years to do: announce the imminent coming of the Kingdom for all humanity.

Had he never said a word, they would have known him anyway, and they knew, as they had known would happen since Moses, that God had finished preparing them and was sending them out to fulfill their purpose: announcing the Good News to the nations. To fulfill their Covenant that was given to them and them alone.

Anything else was what was written about him, true or false, accurate or not, depending on the pen of the scribe. Some of those pens were as Jeremiah said, "the lying pens of the scribes."

He was God's Word and like all of God's Words, he was untouchable. Irrefutable. Eternal. Unmistakable. Plain, clear, unambiguous and perfect, open to some, obscure to others, unchangeable.

But the corrupt of Levi and Judah had long since learned how to manipulate God's Word to falsify the Law to their own advantage at the expense of the Children of Israel and others.

They knew how to twist their tongues with God's Words, reading "a religion of peace" ("silm") as "ladder" ("sullam") by adding a fly-speck dot above the "L" of the Hebrew script, which doubled the letter, and changing the pronunciation when they recited it. They knew how to take words out of context and put them in another context ~ as in splitting the story of Abraham and Pharaoh in two, putting Sarah's night in Pharaoh's harem in one place, and Pharaoh's very public gift of his daughter to Sarah ~ to dispel any rumors about that night, when God sent him a dream and Sarah slept alone and privately in royal comfort ~ in another place.

And by adding the words of false prophets that they knew were false, but they wanted to hear ~ unlike God's Words that the true prophets brought them, which they didn't want to hear.

But they couldn't twist Jesus. The couldn't change his context. They couldn't touch him, God's Word had become forbidden to them because of what they had done before, taking the Words of God that the prophets had brought them and denying them, killing their prophets, calling "true" the words of their false prophets, and forging their false Tradition.

And because of The Lie of their false tradition, a "religion" they wrote for themselves, to their own design, for their own aggrandizement and benefit, that they still follow today.

And when the scribes and false pharisees knew Jesus was gone, they went to work with their pens, adding The Lie to what was written about him for the nations, and calling him a spawn of the devil among the Children of Israel.

And they wrote another new "mystery religion" for the rulers of Rome and pagan Europe, for the children of Japheth, who they'd known since Noah would come to know God in America. Schism, division, confusion and doctrinal disputation, and a set of end-time "prophecies" their descendants could manipulate and make happen, were built into it, along with enough of God's Word, Jesus, to subjugate all who followed it to Caesar and his satanic successors.

"We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement," from Ezekiel 13, is not vague. The bargain was struck in Solomon's time and the plan developed in Babylon during the Captivity. Denying Jesus was the Messiah, if he wouldn't play along, was part of their plan, and falsifying him was part of the deal.

Then when God sent down the Millennial Kingdom in the Promised Land, exactly as the Hebrew prophets said it would happen, as recorded in detail in the Old Testament, they were waiting there to corrupt and destroy it ~ which took them less than half a century to corrupt and then a thousand years to collapse entirely and disappear into history.

And as satan was loosed from the Pit to ravage the world and the Promised Land with wars, plagues, famines, and death, the remaining camp of the saints fled to a New World on the Lost Continent and prepared a new home for the Kingdom that they would inherit.

And here we all are, safe in the belly of the Beast of Revelation, along with the Westboro synagogue, waiting for Temple Israel's False Messiah to make his appearance and watch the enemies of Jesus "miraculously" recognize him as their Messiah. Which he will be, lock, stock and barrel, just like they wanted Jesus to be.

But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself in the Bible.

If you are not okay with the mosque, how do you suggest we build bridges with the Muslim world, encouraging moderate Muslims?

If you are okay with the mosque, how shall we address the grief of those who mourn? Those who feel this is letting terrorists win? Again, how do we build bridges, keeping in mind the passion of the mosque's critics?

If you are not okay with the mosque, how do you suggest we build bridges with the Muslim world, encouraging moderate Muslims?

If you are okay with the mosque, how shall we address the grief of those who mourn? Those who feel this is letting terrorists win? Again, how do we build bridges, keeping in mind the passion of the mosque's critics?

Why do you assume the worst of Wallis? Can't anyone make an honest mistake without being accused of being a liar? We are so set on painting each other as evil that we will pounce like a lion on the tiniest shred that someone might not be telling the truth, regardless of whether it is an honest mistake or not.

Reminds me of a friend who told me defiantly that Obama is a liar because he said his uncle had helped liberate Auschwitz. Turned out to be Buchenwald (or do I have that mixed around) and it was his great uncle. Conservatives had a field day over that. The guy misspoke. Sheesh.

Liar is a strong word. Best be sure you have all your facts in before you go calling someone that.

A half-truth is a whole lie, and Olasky has been taking to task by some conservatives, most notably the late William Safire for savaging John McCain back in 2000.

Two issues need finalizing.

Re Rev. Wallis and Mr. Soros. The total amount Soros' open Society Institute provided to Sojourners was ~$500,000 over a six-year period. The "revenue" amounts mentioned are TOTALS, NOT what OSI provided. So the amount actually received from OSI was, in fact, a pittance compared to Sojourners annual budgets and revenue streams. That said, Rev. Wallis definitely owes an apology.

Re Jesus and swords, every person who has brought it up has taken it out of context. Here is the passage:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

The "sword" that Jesus is bringing is the "rift" that will occur between those who believe in Him and those who don't - even within families. Because believers will (i.e., are called to) love Him even more than they love the members of their own families, families will be set "at variance" against each other.

This brings up an important point that Rev. Wallis has made many times: there will always be those - in any religion - who take Scripture (whether Biblical or Qur'anic) out of context to support narrow, unloving, unforgiving views. Once person here did this by citing a single line of the Qur'an completely out of context from its actual meaning. And all too many do it with the Judeo-Christian scripture - both "out there" and even, sadly, "in here."

In this regard, there is nothing ambiguous about Jesus' admonition for us to love our enemies. And He doesn't stop there:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Jesus does not provide any "outs" or exceptions. And Paul reiterates this central tenet in Romans:

"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not."

How much clearer can it be?

Peace.

and as far as a pastor jeff goes, he has been nothing but disrespectful of me, and has been assuming everything about my views. I have not said anything from foxnews on here, and he continues to bring it up. I am left to assume that he hates foxnews for some reasons I am unaware.

its a spiritual battle. do you know how few people actually protest at military funerals and burn qurans? it is probably a fraction of a percent of Christians. The media uses those christians to paint us ina bad light. I understand why you do what you do. We are to be peacemakers, but there is a line between a peacemaker and someone who chooses to let everything that is against god happne wihtout saying boo. im not saying thats you. but im just saying theres a line.

Jesus was a perfect man created in God's Image, protected from the least error. ... We, in our time, see both.

Now, here is where Islam and Christianity differ most significantly. Christians consider the statement "Jesus was a perfect man created in God's image" heretical.

All men are created in God's Image. One of the early controversies in Pauline Christianity was the "dual nature" of Christ ~ man and God. I've forgotten the Greek term for that, it dominates early Church history. So not all Christians consider the statement "heretical."

Christians believe that Jesus WAS GOD HIMSELF. Of course, Muslims would consider that statement heretical.

No, we consider it imaginative and understandable, given that when people looked at Jesus, they saw God. What we consider "heretical" ("plain error") is the idea that God is divisible into "three." We know the Ruhul-Quddus ourselves, the Holy Spirit, as a "Ruh" (a spiritual "wind" that makes a hurricane look like a breeze), created by God. The Ruhul-Haqq ~ the Spirit of Truth ~ is another one created by God. But to suggest that these created "spirits" (there are other varieties that we can't directly perceive with our senses) are "parts" of God implies that every created thing is a "part" of God.

So "heresy" ~ no. A misconception, yes. And refuted by words of Jesus himself, as recorded in the New Testament.

But that's what makes us two communities ~ just about the only thing that makes us two communities, along with some other differing beliefs about the Messiah Jesus. We say "Lakum deenukum wa liya deen" ~ "To you your conviction, to me mine" and know that God will tell us of that wherein we differ. We don't see our differences as an obstacle to that in which we agree.

It is certainly possible for Christians and Muslims to live together in peace, and I certainly hope such takes place everywhere.

Right ~ you don't see it as an obstacle either.

On a personal level, I would like to learn more about Islam from you, and I guess you'd be interested in learning more about Christianity. Would you be interested in starting a dialogue of mutual understanding through email? My email address is nelsongchen2@yahoo.com.

I think you'll find an eMail waiting for you. You can keep it private or publish here whatever you wish of it, just keep in mind that I'm writing in these conversation threads during virtually all of my waking hours and give that work equal priority.

So is that a yes?

and Jeff, one of my friends is a muslim. He knows quite a bit. but thanks for your concern on where i get my info from.

If you are not okay with the mosque, how do you suggest we build bridges with the Muslim world, encouraging moderate Muslims?

If you are okay with the mosque, how shall we address the grief of those who mourn? Those who feel this is letting terrorists win? Again, how do we build bridges, keeping in mind the passion of the mosque's critics?

Having once read the magazine, I know for a fact that he does do exactly that -- and, from what I have also learned about the situation, totally blew it out of proportion.

I've included a modern definition of the word "genocide" from
Dictionary.com at the end of this post. Because of usage, the definition
has expanded to include people of various political or cultural groups,
not just because of kinship relationships. I see your point about the
original word origin of blood kinship, but the usage of this word has
been expanded to include political or cultural groups.

Using a word to denote something it does not mean is precisely the way
the words of Jesus have been used to justify inhuman practices and
slaughter of innocents, as well as to confuse matters which we are
unable to directly perceive into a proliferation of conflicting
doctrines and dogmas dividing Christianity against itself. It's a
confusion of language not unlike that sent down at the Tower of Babel ~
and the reason that Scripture should be studied in its original Semitic
languages that carry the full range of meanings of the words rather than
a narrow "translation" that captures only what the translator was
capable of understanding, if that.

And let me state again what many people -- including those in
Amnesty International, a group that I am active in -- are opposed to any
sort of genocide or mass murders of any group of people because of race,
religion, gender, caste, sexual orientation, nationality, color,
occupation -- for being who they are. This is an evil that must be
fought wherever in the world that it occurs. There is no room for moral
relativism -- it's not a matter of "it's not my problem" -- anywhere in
the fight against genocide/mass murder.
So I would hope that the Cordoba House people would be in agreement
with the above statement.

I am, and I'm sure the Cordoba House people ~ Jews, Christians, and
muslims ~ are also in agreement.

Thank you for your comments.

Having once read the magazine, I know for a fact that he does do exactly that -- and, from what I have also learned about the situation, totally blew it out of proportion.

and as far as a pastor jeff goes, he has been nothing but disrespectful of me, and has been assuming everything about my views. I have not said anything from foxnews on here, and he continues to bring it up. I am left to assume that he hates foxnews for some reasons I am unaware.

You weren't flagged for disagreement, but for calling my view of Jesus perverted. I guess it doesn't sound like a deep insult to you, but it is to me. Maybe I should just explain why it is such a volatile word to use:

You don't know me, or my view of Jesus. You know nothing of my walk with Him, how long I have walked with Him, Who He is to me, or how I have come to my understanding of Him. You assume much about me in your statement, and yet I have said very little to lead you to such a conclusion.

For that matter, you don't know Pastor Jeff, either, and you seem to have assumed a lot in your comments to him.

So, yes, you were flagged. By me too. And I would hope someone would have flagged me had I made assumptions or mischaracterizations of your view of Jesus.

"but he clearly said that we would not be loved by the world. "

See, the thing is, I'm finding myself not loved within Christianity itself in my attempts at being a peacemaker---something Jesus said I would be blessed for! How messed up is that? I'm beginning to wonder if the persecutors Jesus was speaking of wasn't from our own ranks? How is it that those who love peace, as Jesus said we should, can be characterized as anti-Christian? As wolves in sheep's clothing? How is it that peace becomes a dirty word in Christianity? What is that about?

If we are hated by the world, may it be that we are hated for our love. May we be hated for feeding the poor and hungry, or helping someone walk through addiction, or visiting someone in prison or the hospital, or standing up for the rights of someone who is being marginalized, or forgiving someone who has done us a great wrong. But so far, that isn't why we are hated. The reasons we are hated are for burning Korans, or protesting at soldier's funerals because "God hates gays", or for shooting abortion doctors. I realize those are extreme examples, but the truth is, we are hated for our lack of love, not for our love. I'd like to see that turn around, wouldn't you?

KnowUNoIt quoted Baruch HaShem. When I visited his site, I found that Mr. HaShem had some very interesting things to say about Jesus:

"[Baruch HaShem]: The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin."

He then goes on to meticulously list all of the "sins" that Jesus commited to explain why Jesus was a false Messiah. At the very end, HaShem gives us an idea who the "real" Messiah actually is.

Needless to say, HaShem (and KnowUNoIt) has the right to believe whatever he wishes about Jesus. However, Jesus came back from the dead; he was resurrected and His Word will overcome any of this.

You weren't flagged for disagreement, but for calling my view of Jesus perverted. I guess it doesn't sound like a deep insult to you, but it is to me. Maybe I should just explain why it is such a volatile word to use:

You don't know me, or my view of Jesus. You know nothing of my walk with Him, how long I have walked with Him, Who He is to me, or how I have come to my understanding of Him. You assume much about me in your statement, and yet I have said very little to lead you to such a conclusion.

For that matter, you don't know Pastor Jeff, either, and you seem to have assumed a lot in your comments to him.

So, yes, you were flagged. By me too. And I would hope someone would have flagged me had I made assumptions or mischaracterizations of your view of Jesus.

"but he clearly said that we would not be loved by the world. "

See, the thing is, I'm finding myself not loved within Christianity itself in my attempts at being a peacemaker---something Jesus said I would be blessed for! How messed up is that? I'm beginning to wonder if the persecutors Jesus was speaking of wasn't from our own ranks? How is it that those who love peace, as Jesus said we should, can be characterized as anti-Christian? As wolves in sheep's clothing? How is it that peace becomes a dirty word in Christianity? What is that about?

If we are hated by the world, may it be that we are hated for our love. May we be hated for feeding the poor and hungry, or helping someone walk through addiction, or visiting someone in prison or the hospital, or standing up for the rights of someone who is being marginalized, or forgiving someone who has done us a great wrong. But so far, that isn't why we are hated. The reasons we are hated are for burning Korans, or protesting at soldier's funerals because "God hates gays", or for shooting abortion doctors. I realize those are extreme examples, but the truth is, we are hated for our lack of love, not for our love. I'd like to see that turn around, wouldn't you?

Have you read his book about his conversion experience? I don't have the book here to quote it but it should answer your questions but I don't supose you've read his books or even care.

Youre right. We all do to a point. The problem I have with Jim wallis and other leftist christians is that they preach as if Jesus would put his trust in the government to help poor people. The government is not going to give anything back to the poor of htis country. Most of it gets lost through corruption. Anyway, The Bible is clear about wolves in sheepskin. Keep discernment. always.

Unfortunately there are just as many being deceived by the false prophets of these end times affiliated with Fox/Beck/Hannity and Savage who encourage worship of the beast(power) and the whore of Babylon (greed) BTW-Jesus WAS a hippie