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The War in Iraq: At What Cost?

The emotion that grips me this morning, after watching President Obama's speech last night and listening to the commentary about the "end of our combat mission in Iraq," is a deep sadness. Even in the Oval Office speech last night, the mission of the war in Iraq still wasn't made clear -- and it never was.

This was a war started on a false pretext -- that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them or hand them off to terrorists. At the time there were other ways to determine that and respond accordingly (international inspections were underway), but we went to war instead. The Bush Administration's fearful predictions of "mushroom clouds" went along with insinuations that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11 despite the fact that it was not. That Saddam Hussein was a terrible and brutal dictator was well known, but bombing his cities and people wasn't the only way to deal with him, as many church leaders pointed out at the time. And, of course, the U.S. hadn't made war on the countries of every other dictator who was as bad, or worse, than Saddam. But those dictators weren't sitting on deserts full of oil -- always the unspoken reality of our foreign policy and wars in the Middle Eastern region.

Of course the "shock and awe" of America's military might easily defeated the army of Saddam Hussein, but the post-invasion strategy was horribly botched, a complete misunderstanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts was soon revealed, incidents of prisoner abuse and torture shamed America's image around the world, and the impact of the U.S. deciding to fight an unnecessary war in Iraq served to inflame global opinion about the United States, and caused us to lose the moral high ground we had around the world after the vicious attacks of 9/11 (remember that?) And the strategic consequences of neglecting Afghanistan and inadvertently strengthening Iran because of the U.S. war in Iraq are now being discussed by the political talking heads.

But that's all history now, and the President asked the nation to "turn the page" last night. But what makes me so sad this morning is the enormous human cost of the war in Iraq; and how a massive number of people and families -- in America and Iraq -- have had their lives ended or changed forever because of this war and will have a hard time turning the page.

It is precisely because of the terrible human cost of war that Christian leaders and churches are supposed to ask the hardest questions about it. And many did about the war in Iraq. Let's remember the fact today that most Christian leaders and churches around the world rejected the arguments for America going to war against Iraq and opposed the U.S. invasion and occupation. They applied the peace-making ministry of Jesus and the rigorous historical criteria for what constitutes a "just war" and found the Iraq war painfully lacking adequate moral justification. But the United States government didn't heed the warnings and the objections of the international faith community, even in America, where political opinion was split about 50-50. The global church was right in rejecting this war from the outset, and the government of the United States was wrong for fighting it.

The human cost of the Iraq War is literally breathtaking. I went to a website last night that has documented the number and published the pictures of those who died, 4,400 so far. I couldn't stop looking at their pictures

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by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:33pm

One of my all time favorite passages is Isaiah 58. The word is truly our yardstick to measure how we're doing following God's desires for us.

The outward manifestations of drawing close to Lord with our mouths and visible displays of demonstrations, flag waving and church attendance, as well as fasting, and bible reading can only be seen as correct when it results in true repentance.

True repentance according to Isaiah 58 is:
Stop the exploitation of workers
Stop quarreling and strife
Loose the chains of injustice
Set the oppressed free
Break every yoke
Share food with the hungry
Provide the poor and the wanderer with shelter
Clothe the naked
Care for our own flesh and blood
Stop malicious talk and pointing of fingers

Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer. His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.

How exciting to know it isn't a mystery but clearly spelled out for us to know and follow the revealed will of God and to know that our actions will result in blessings.

by: grazorblade

09-02-2010 @ 9:31pm

incidentally i read isaiah 58 yesterday morning one of my favorite passages

by: mjeinpenn

09-07-2010 @ 8:55pm

In the words of the Reverend William Sloane Coffin, Jr., former Chaplain of Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church in New York City, "There are two kinds of patriots, two bad and one good. The bad ones are the uncritical lovers and the loveless critics. Good patriots carry on a lover's quarrel with their country, a reflection of God's lover's quarrel with all the world." Thank you, Reverend Wallis, for being a "good patriot." As Christians, we should also be drawn to the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer, who in the end sacrificed his own life in resisting Hitler: "The followers of Christ have been called to peace. . . . And they must not only have peace but make it. To that end they renounce all violence and tumult. In the cause of Christ nothing is to be gained by such methods."

In the case of Iraq, the justification for war was never convincingly made, and all subsequent rationalizations have fallen short morally and ethically. It was not a just war. We attacked a country that posed no imminent threat to the United States. This was not a defensive war or even a legitimately pre-emptive war. Our actions also were disproportional to the perceived harm. Deposing Saddam was one thing; killing more than 100,000 civilians, wounding and maiming hundreds of thousands more, causing widespread destruction, and occupying the nation for seven plus years, was far beyond what anyone anticipated or could ever have been justified. You are absolutely correct, Jim, that Christians were right to oppose this war and the government of the United States was wrong for fighting it.

http://ehlersoneverything.blogspot.com

by: grazorblade

09-02-2010 @ 9:31pm

incidentally i read isaiah 58 yesterday morning one of my favorite passages

by: Ngchen

09-01-2010 @ 8:06pm

I'm so glad that the Iraq war is being wound up. A fact that war opponents I feel have downplayed is the question of whether the war was launched as a war of aggression. Aggressive war is, in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunal, "the supreme war crime."

Of course there are questions about whether the nonexistent WMD were trumped up, or whether the then White House simply chose to believe what it wanted to believe. If it were the latter, what happened should serve as a warning to us believers in terms of how it's sin to be disappointed when an adversary turns out to be a better person than one thought. The damage done to the rule of law may be, ultimately, the harm that's hardest to eliminate.

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 10:52pm

gosh, perhaps a million deaths because of the war on iraq, slave labour all around the world, 45 million americans without health care, vulture funds, 300 000 dying a year due to climate change, nigerian oil spills from american companies, deregulation and inequality that led to people losing jobs in countries on the other side of the world, inequality that indirectly causes many many deaths (1) and who knows how many unborn children aborted every year. All these policies supported by America, nearly all of them are a result of right wing policies condoned by the majority of Christians in america. I read isaiah 58 today then read this, then i paused for an hour in silence with God. It literally makes me tremble. I would feel hope if the church was united against injustice - but if the church isn't who will be? And the few that are so often i feel that justice consumes them and takes the place of Christ in their hearts, thoughts and attention. Prayer is all but extinct in this country, all this talk about being "bible believing Christians" yet I see so little Bible reading. It seems to be nothing more than a rallying cry to identify a movement. We were called to be monogamously intimate with God. Isaiah 54 calls God our husband. But i feel he is a neglected and we adulterate ourselves to the cares of this world - giving him little attention. And the few that pray and fast seem to care so little about justice. I feel a deep sadness within me, what can be done? God save America

(1) spirit level - kate pickett and richard wilkinson

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 11:23pm

i admire your passion, but he did actually talk about up to a million iraqi casualities...

by: iscariot

09-01-2010 @ 11:12pm

Shame, shame Reverend Wallis, all those words and not one about the cost to Iraqis, the near million killed, the five million displaced, the physical destruction, a lost generation. You and President Obama both spoke only of American sacrifice. All right maybe they're not Christians you might think, but this war led to a mass exodus of Iraqi Christians putting just one more nail in the coffin of historical Christian flight from their Middle East homelands. Of course with the current mood in this country, to have compassion for the suffering of the Other is unpatriotic and thus I suppose unAmerican. And I am one who much admires your speaking out on these issues and taking the point of view the cost (to Americans) was not worth it.

by: duhsciple

09-02-2010 @ 12:09am

Within the text of this article, Jim Wallis writes:

"As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."

Yes, let us remember the Other, the Stranger, the Different One is also a precious, beloved, child of God.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:51am

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, that was a fair paragraph. Darn that speed reading course or maybe Obama's speech dropped the scales over my eyes. Thanks for that, I'll be more careful next time, not just with someone I admire like JW, but with everyone........

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:48am

mea culpa you're right, there was a good paragraph.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:45am

thanks a lesson to read more carefully without passion, back to the text to see how much emphasis was on it.

by: John Mulholland

09-02-2010 @ 2:13am

This would have been a lot shorter had Jim simply written "Bush lied, people died."

by: struthster

09-02-2010 @ 2:12am

But Jim: Dulcet et decorum est pro patria mori!

by: Me and Me

09-06-2010 @ 5:55pm

Jim, I call bogus, at least for the US Christian church, when you discuss "Christian leaders and churches are supposed to ask the hardest questions about it. And many did about the war in Iraq. Let's remember the fact today that most Christian leaders and churches around the world rejected the arguments for America going to war against Iraq and opposed the U.S. invasion and occupation."

Let's not whitewash the past. The US church was almost completely silent, marching quietly along with the Republican leadership - the church (especially the more fundamentalist elements of the church) had too much invested in the Republican party to do otherwise. In fact, the people protesting the war were labeled traitors, anti-American, terrorist-sympathizers, etc. by the Right/Republicans and no one from the church did anything to change or challenge that perception. Sure, there were some christians in the mix protesting, but the church leadership and the majority of christians, did nothing - silence being acceptance - essentially supporting and encouraging the start of the war. The leadership completely failed to ask any difficult or hard questions, at least publicly.

The church in other countries did protest loudly and marched, but the US church has made more noise about "protecting marriage, gays, and abortion" than it ever did on the US going to war for the second time with Iraq.

And then when the US policy of torture came to light, again, the church was eerily silent... and is still silent. Has the church called for inquiries, investigations, justice, and the END to policies of torture? No.

The church failed miserably.

http://wiki.infoshop.org/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)

by: Ankaboot

09-02-2010 @ 2:55am

With all due respect and affection, Reverend Wallis, your lament shows a misunderstanding or two.

The post-invasion strategy was horribly botched, a complete misunderstanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts was soon revealed.

The post-invasion strategy was based on a complete understanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts, and was executed according to plan. Just as American support of Afghanistan's warlords and opium barons against the Soviet occupation was based on a complete understanding of Afghanistan's religious and ethnic conflicts, leaving behind a set of armed parties that immediately began a multi-party civil war in Afghanistan as planned as soon as the Soviets were out of the way.

And the Taliban put paid to the warlords and opium barons with the support of the people of Afghanistan, and were favored by America's foreign policy architects with grants to aid farmers in planting new crops other than opium when the fields had been burned. Taliban Afghanistan was fine with Washington until they gave the concession for a Caspian Basin oil pipeline to Venezuela instead of an American oil cartel. That pipeline is under construction today.

It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed.

There are websites with pictures of babies and children showing the inherited effects of "depleted" uranium that is still radioactive, from munitions used by American forces during Gulf War I. There will be more generations of such pictures.

No, the results are definitely not worth the cost. That is both a political and a theological statement; but it is primarily a moral judgment - which is exactly what those of us in the faith community are supposed to make about wars.

What you are saying here is that Christians may ~ in your words "are supposed to" ~ decide whether to spread the Good News by the sword. There was nothing whatever "defensive" about the new Caesar's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing. It was pure aggression, and Christian leaders could see that plainly, and rightly condemned it. But the subtext is that Christian leaders might have been able to approve it had it not been so blatantly criminal. That is not what Jesus brought.

Today I feel little celebration in America for the "end" of our combat mission in Iraq.

There are "rumors of war" ~ again on false pretexts that would be illegitimate even were they not false ~ saying that Israel is preparing to attack Iran and that the Saudi government has agreed to allow Israeli air forces to fly over Saudi Arabia on their way to Iran. America, of course, would be expected ~ and by treaty and policy required ~ to come to Israel's aid should Iran retaliate by so much as a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip or south Lebanon.

Oh, wait a minute ~ those aren't "rumors," they're apparently facts.

I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands, even though my primary allegiance is to God.

But where is that "Republic for which it stands"? Caesar and his foreign allies and counselors have carried out their coup long since, elected by votes cast in Presidential, Senatorial, and Congressional elections to the offices from which they orchestrated their takeover.

And how have people "rendered unto Caesar" permission to marry, rights of ownership, freedom of association, free exercise of religion, feeding the hungry, aiding the destitute, and other elements of liberty "protected" by the Constitution from him?

Christians' allegiance is first to God, and should then be to their local congregation, economically self-sustaining to the greatest extent possible, to reduce the capacity of Caesar to determine how everyday life is lived.

But that "Republic for which it stands" is like the Kingdom of Heaven ~ it's another world away. We've let Caesar lock us away in our homes and religious sanctuaries ~ churches and church bake sales and so on ~ and barred ministries from participation in the political life of the nation like the Colonies enjoyed, defended, and preserved when they became States ~ but subsequently lost. How did Caesar acquire the authority to tell people what Jesus asked of them?

We need to re-form ~ to form again ~ the Christian nation that America once was. Caesar has all but erased it from the land.

And when I say "we," I am sure I am speaking for Imam 'Abdur-Ra'uf of Cordoba House and most of the muslims in America, by including us in that "we."

We do not want to "change" America. We want to see it.

by: squeaky

09-02-2010 @ 6:17am

Someone already pointed it out and the mistake has been acknowledged by iscariot.

by: Ngchen

09-01-2010 @ 8:06pm

I'm so glad that the Iraq war is being wound up. A fact that war opponents I feel have downplayed is the question of whether the war was launched as a war of aggression. Aggressive war is, in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunal, "the supreme war crime."

Of course there are questions about whether the nonexistent WMD were trumped up, or whether the then White House simply chose to believe what it wanted to believe. If it were the latter, what happened should serve as a warning to us believers in terms of how it's sin to be disappointed when an adversary turns out to be a better person than one thought. The damage done to the rule of law may be, ultimately, the harm that's hardest to eliminate.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 6:02am

A couple of sites with pictures of Iraqi war casualties:
http://www.progressiveaustin.org/iraqivic.htm
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
Not pleasant . . . but very real.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 5:55am

It appears that you did not read the Wallis posting above? The seventh paragraph reads: "As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."
Not one word about the cost to Iraqis? Please read again.

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 10:52pm

gosh, perhaps a million deaths because of the war on iraq, slave labour all around the world, 45 million americans without health care, vulture funds, 300 000 dying a year due to climate change, nigerian oil spills from american companies, deregulation and inequality that led to people losing jobs in countries on the other side of the world, inequality that indirectly causes many many deaths (1) and who knows how many unborn children aborted every year. All these policies supported by America, nearly all of them are a result of right wing policies condoned by the majority of Christians in america. I read isaiah 58 today then read this, then i paused for an hour in silence with God. It literally makes me tremble. I would feel hope if the church was united against injustice - but if the church isn't who will be? And the few that are so often i feel that justice consumes them and takes the place of Christ in their hearts, thoughts and attention. Prayer is all but extinct in this country, all this talk about being "bible believing Christians" yet I see so little Bible reading. It seems to be nothing more than a rallying cry to identify a movement. We were called to be monogamously intimate with God. Isaiah 54 calls God our husband. But i feel he is a neglected and we adulterate ourselves to the cares of this world - giving him little attention. And the few that pray and fast seem to care so little about justice. I feel a deep sadness within me, what can be done? God save America

(1) spirit level - kate pickett and richard wilkinson

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 11:23pm

i admire your passion, but he did actually talk about up to a million iraqi casualities...

by: iscariot

09-01-2010 @ 11:12pm

Shame, shame Reverend Wallis, all those words and not one about the cost to Iraqis, the near million killed, the five million displaced, the physical destruction, a lost generation. You and President Obama both spoke only of American sacrifice. All right maybe they're not Christians you might think, but this war led to a mass exodus of Iraqi Christians putting just one more nail in the coffin of historical Christian flight from their Middle East homelands. Of course with the current mood in this country, to have compassion for the suffering of the Other is unpatriotic and thus I suppose unAmerican. And I am one who much admires your speaking out on these issues and taking the point of view the cost (to Americans) was not worth it.

by: duhsciple

09-02-2010 @ 12:09am

Within the text of this article, Jim Wallis writes:

"As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."

Yes, let us remember the Other, the Stranger, the Different One is also a precious, beloved, child of God.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:51am

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, that was a fair paragraph. Darn that speed reading course or maybe Obama's speech dropped the scales over my eyes. Thanks for that, I'll be more careful next time, not just with someone I admire like JW, but with everyone........

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:48am

mea culpa you're right, there was a good paragraph.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:45am

thanks a lesson to read more carefully without passion, back to the text to see how much emphasis was on it.

by: John Mulholland

09-02-2010 @ 2:13am

This would have been a lot shorter had Jim simply written "Bush lied, people died."

by: struthster

09-02-2010 @ 2:12am

But Jim: Dulcet et decorum est pro patria mori!

by: Me and Me

09-06-2010 @ 5:55pm

Jim, I call bogus, at least for the US Christian church, when you discuss "Christian leaders and churches are supposed to ask the hardest questions about it. And many did about the war in Iraq. Let's remember the fact today that most Christian leaders and churches around the world rejected the arguments for America going to war against Iraq and opposed the U.S. invasion and occupation."

Let's not whitewash the past. The US church was almost completely silent, marching quietly along with the Republican leadership - the church (especially the more fundamentalist elements of the church) had too much invested in the Republican party to do otherwise. In fact, the people protesting the war were labeled traitors, anti-American, terrorist-sympathizers, etc. by the Right/Republicans and no one from the church did anything to change or challenge that perception. Sure, there were some christians in the mix protesting, but the church leadership and the majority of christians, did nothing - silence being acceptance - essentially supporting and encouraging the start of the war. The leadership completely failed to ask any difficult or hard questions, at least publicly.

The church in other countries did protest loudly and marched, but the US church has made more noise about "protecting marriage, gays, and abortion" than it ever did on the US going to war for the second time with Iraq.

And then when the US policy of torture came to light, again, the church was eerily silent... and is still silent. Has the church called for inquiries, investigations, justice, and the END to policies of torture? No.

The church failed miserably.

http://wiki.infoshop.org/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)

by: Ankaboot

09-02-2010 @ 2:55am

With all due respect and affection, Reverend Wallis, your lament shows a misunderstanding or two.

The post-invasion strategy was horribly botched, a complete misunderstanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts was soon revealed.

The post-invasion strategy was based on a complete understanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts, and was executed according to plan. Just as American support of Afghanistan's warlords and opium barons against the Soviet occupation was based on a complete understanding of Afghanistan's religious and ethnic conflicts, leaving behind a set of armed parties that immediately began a multi-party civil war in Afghanistan as planned as soon as the Soviets were out of the way.

And the Taliban put paid to the warlords and opium barons with the support of the people of Afghanistan, and were favored by America's foreign policy architects with grants to aid farmers in planting new crops other than opium when the fields had been burned. Taliban Afghanistan was fine with Washington until they gave the concession for a Caspian Basin oil pipeline to Venezuela instead of an American oil cartel. That pipeline is under construction today.

It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed.

There are websites with pictures of babies and children showing the inherited effects of "depleted" uranium that is still radioactive, from munitions used by American forces during Gulf War I. There will be more generations of such pictures.

No, the results are definitely not worth the cost. That is both a political and a theological statement; but it is primarily a moral judgment - which is exactly what those of us in the faith community are supposed to make about wars.

What you are saying here is that Christians may ~ in your words "are supposed to" ~ decide whether to spread the Good News by the sword. There was nothing whatever "defensive" about the new Caesar's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing. It was pure aggression, and Christian leaders could see that plainly, and rightly condemned it. But the subtext is that Christian leaders might have been able to approve it had it not been so blatantly criminal. That is not what Jesus brought.

Today I feel little celebration in America for the "end" of our combat mission in Iraq.

There are "rumors of war" ~ again on false pretexts that would be illegitimate even were they not false ~ saying that Israel is preparing to attack Iran and that the Saudi government has agreed to allow Israeli air forces to fly over Saudi Arabia on their way to Iran. America, of course, would be expected ~ and by treaty and policy required ~ to come to Israel's aid should Iran retaliate by so much as a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip or south Lebanon.

Oh, wait a minute ~ those aren't "rumors," they're apparently facts.

I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands, even though my primary allegiance is to God.

But where is that "Republic for which it stands"? Caesar and his foreign allies and counselors have carried out their coup long since, elected by votes cast in Presidential, Senatorial, and Congressional elections to the offices from which they orchestrated their takeover.

And how have people "rendered unto Caesar" permission to marry, rights of ownership, freedom of association, free exercise of religion, feeding the hungry, aiding the destitute, and other elements of liberty "protected" by the Constitution from him?

Christians' allegiance is first to God, and should then be to their local congregation, economically self-sustaining to the greatest extent possible, to reduce the capacity of Caesar to determine how everyday life is lived.

But that "Republic for which it stands" is like the Kingdom of Heaven ~ it's another world away. We've let Caesar lock us away in our homes and religious sanctuaries ~ churches and church bake sales and so on ~ and barred ministries from participation in the political life of the nation like the Colonies enjoyed, defended, and preserved when they became States ~ but subsequently lost. How did Caesar acquire the authority to tell people what Jesus asked of them?

We need to re-form ~ to form again ~ the Christian nation that America once was. Caesar has all but erased it from the land.

And when I say "we," I am sure I am speaking for Imam 'Abdur-Ra'uf of Cordoba House and most of the muslims in America, by including us in that "we."

We do not want to "change" America. We want to see it.

by: squeaky

09-02-2010 @ 6:17am

Someone already pointed it out and the mistake has been acknowledged by iscariot.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 6:02am

A couple of sites with pictures of Iraqi war casualties:
http://www.progressiveaustin.org/iraqivic.htm
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
Not pleasant . . . but very real.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 5:55am

It appears that you did not read the Wallis posting above? The seventh paragraph reads: "As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."
Not one word about the cost to Iraqis? Please read again.

by: Amrek

10-08-2010 @ 7:32am

>Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer.<

We would be a ~ creation ~ of THE LIVING. Not the other way around.

>His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.<

Or our front right left below and above!

wassalaam

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:01pm

America is what we choose to make it. First we need to be fully informed; not to inflame or judge but to have paradigm shifts that will inform future decisions. I for one have always believed I'm hearing only what is intended to be heard.

My problem in the past was that I bought into the idea that a "Christian" nation, could not do anything wrong. That my friend, is how indoctrination works.

That indoctrination comes in many political, ideological and fundamental stripes. As all Christians are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. But human nature is all the same and as we are all humans, we are all capable of the worst and best of behavior.

May we then judge righteously, with God's ideals in mind. Social justice, care for widows, orphans, and the stranger amongst us, love of our neighbors as we ourselves wish to be loved. May we know God intimately and show the fruit that is evident. LOVE

by: Amrek

10-08-2010 @ 7:32am

>Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer.<

We would be a ~ creation ~ of THE LIVING. Not the other way around.

>His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.<

Or our front right left below and above!

wassalaam

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:33pm

One of my all time favorite passages is Isaiah 58. The word is truly our yardstick to measure how we're doing following God's desires for us.

The outward manifestations of drawing close to Lord with our mouths and visible displays of demonstrations, flag waving and church attendance, as well as fasting, and bible reading can only be seen as correct when it results in true repentance.

True repentance according to Isaiah 58 is:
Stop the exploitation of workers
Stop quarreling and strife
Loose the chains of injustice
Set the oppressed free
Break every yoke
Share food with the hungry
Provide the poor and the wanderer with shelter
Clothe the naked
Care for our own flesh and blood
Stop malicious talk and pointing of fingers

Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer. His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.

How exciting to know it isn't a mystery but clearly spelled out for us to know and follow the revealed will of God and to know that our actions will result in blessings.

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:01pm

America is what we choose to make it. First we need to be fully informed; not to inflame or judge but to have paradigm shifts that will inform future decisions. I for one have always believed I'm hearing only what is intended to be heard.

My problem in the past was that I bought into the idea that a "Christian" nation, could not do anything wrong. That my friend, is how indoctrination works.

That indoctrination comes in many political, ideological and fundamental stripes. As all Christians are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. But human nature is all the same and as we are all humans, we are all capable of the worst and best of behavior.

May we then judge righteously, with God's ideals in mind. Social justice, care for widows, orphans, and the stranger amongst us, love of our neighbors as we ourselves wish to be loved. May we know God intimately and show the fruit that is evident. LOVE

by: mjeinpenn

09-07-2010 @ 8:55pm

In the words of the Reverend William Sloane Coffin, Jr., former Chaplain of Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church in New York City, "There are two kinds of patriots, two bad and one good. The bad ones are the uncritical lovers and the loveless critics. Good patriots carry on a lover's quarrel with their country, a reflection of God's lover's quarrel with all the world." Thank you, Reverend Wallis, for being a "good patriot." As Christians, we should also be drawn to the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer, who in the end sacrificed his own life in resisting Hitler: "The followers of Christ have been called to peace. . . . And they must not only have peace but make it. To that end they renounce all violence and tumult. In the cause of Christ nothing is to be gained by such methods."

In the case of Iraq, the justification for war was never convincingly made, and all subsequent rationalizations have fallen short morally and ethically. It was not a just war. We attacked a country that posed no imminent threat to the United States. This was not a defensive war or even a legitimately pre-emptive war. Our actions also were disproportional to the perceived harm. Deposing Saddam was one thing; killing more than 100,000 civilians, wounding and maiming hundreds of thousands more, causing widespread destruction, and occupying the nation for seven plus years, was far beyond what anyone anticipated or could ever have been justified. You are absolutely correct, Jim, that Christians were right to oppose this war and the government of the United States was wrong for fighting it.

http://ehlersoneverything.blogspot.com

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by: Ngchen

09-01-2010 @ 8:06pm

I'm so glad that the Iraq war is being wound up. A fact that war opponents I feel have downplayed is the question of whether the war was launched as a war of aggression. Aggressive war is, in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunal, "the supreme war crime."

Of course there are questions about whether the nonexistent WMD were trumped up, or whether the then White House simply chose to believe what it wanted to believe. If it were the latter, what happened should serve as a warning to us believers in terms of how it's sin to be disappointed when an adversary turns out to be a better person than one thought. The damage done to the rule of law may be, ultimately, the harm that's hardest to eliminate.

by: Ngchen

09-01-2010 @ 8:06pm

I'm so glad that the Iraq war is being wound up. A fact that war opponents I feel have downplayed is the question of whether the war was launched as a war of aggression. Aggressive war is, in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunal, "the supreme war crime."

Of course there are questions about whether the nonexistent WMD were trumped up, or whether the then White House simply chose to believe what it wanted to believe. If it were the latter, what happened should serve as a warning to us believers in terms of how it's sin to be disappointed when an adversary turns out to be a better person than one thought. The damage done to the rule of law may be, ultimately, the harm that's hardest to eliminate.

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 10:52pm

gosh, perhaps a million deaths because of the war on iraq, slave labour all around the world, 45 million americans without health care, vulture funds, 300 000 dying a year due to climate change, nigerian oil spills from american companies, deregulation and inequality that led to people losing jobs in countries on the other side of the world, inequality that indirectly causes many many deaths (1) and who knows how many unborn children aborted every year. All these policies supported by America, nearly all of them are a result of right wing policies condoned by the majority of Christians in america. I read isaiah 58 today then read this, then i paused for an hour in silence with God. It literally makes me tremble. I would feel hope if the church was united against injustice - but if the church isn't who will be? And the few that are so often i feel that justice consumes them and takes the place of Christ in their hearts, thoughts and attention. Prayer is all but extinct in this country, all this talk about being "bible believing Christians" yet I see so little Bible reading. It seems to be nothing more than a rallying cry to identify a movement. We were called to be monogamously intimate with God. Isaiah 54 calls God our husband. But i feel he is a neglected and we adulterate ourselves to the cares of this world - giving him little attention. And the few that pray and fast seem to care so little about justice. I feel a deep sadness within me, what can be done? God save America

(1) spirit level - kate pickett and richard wilkinson

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 10:52pm

gosh, perhaps a million deaths because of the war on iraq, slave labour all around the world, 45 million americans without health care, vulture funds, 300 000 dying a year due to climate change, nigerian oil spills from american companies, deregulation and inequality that led to people losing jobs in countries on the other side of the world, inequality that indirectly causes many many deaths (1) and who knows how many unborn children aborted every year. All these policies supported by America, nearly all of them are a result of right wing policies condoned by the majority of Christians in america. I read isaiah 58 today then read this, then i paused for an hour in silence with God. It literally makes me tremble. I would feel hope if the church was united against injustice - but if the church isn't who will be? And the few that are so often i feel that justice consumes them and takes the place of Christ in their hearts, thoughts and attention. Prayer is all but extinct in this country, all this talk about being "bible believing Christians" yet I see so little Bible reading. It seems to be nothing more than a rallying cry to identify a movement. We were called to be monogamously intimate with God. Isaiah 54 calls God our husband. But i feel he is a neglected and we adulterate ourselves to the cares of this world - giving him little attention. And the few that pray and fast seem to care so little about justice. I feel a deep sadness within me, what can be done? God save America

(1) spirit level - kate pickett and richard wilkinson

by: iscariot

09-01-2010 @ 11:12pm

Shame, shame Reverend Wallis, all those words and not one about the cost to Iraqis, the near million killed, the five million displaced, the physical destruction, a lost generation. You and President Obama both spoke only of American sacrifice. All right maybe they're not Christians you might think, but this war led to a mass exodus of Iraqi Christians putting just one more nail in the coffin of historical Christian flight from their Middle East homelands. Of course with the current mood in this country, to have compassion for the suffering of the Other is unpatriotic and thus I suppose unAmerican. And I am one who much admires your speaking out on these issues and taking the point of view the cost (to Americans) was not worth it.

by: iscariot

09-01-2010 @ 11:12pm

Shame, shame Reverend Wallis, all those words and not one about the cost to Iraqis, the near million killed, the five million displaced, the physical destruction, a lost generation. You and President Obama both spoke only of American sacrifice. All right maybe they're not Christians you might think, but this war led to a mass exodus of Iraqi Christians putting just one more nail in the coffin of historical Christian flight from their Middle East homelands. Of course with the current mood in this country, to have compassion for the suffering of the Other is unpatriotic and thus I suppose unAmerican. And I am one who much admires your speaking out on these issues and taking the point of view the cost (to Americans) was not worth it.

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 11:23pm

i admire your passion, but he did actually talk about up to a million iraqi casualities...

by: grazorblade

09-01-2010 @ 11:23pm

i admire your passion, but he did actually talk about up to a million iraqi casualities...

by: duhsciple

09-02-2010 @ 12:09am

Within the text of this article, Jim Wallis writes:

"As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."

Yes, let us remember the Other, the Stranger, the Different One is also a precious, beloved, child of God.

by: duhsciple

09-02-2010 @ 12:09am

Within the text of this article, Jim Wallis writes:

"As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."

Yes, let us remember the Other, the Stranger, the Different One is also a precious, beloved, child of God.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:45am

thanks a lesson to read more carefully without passion, back to the text to see how much emphasis was on it.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:45am

thanks a lesson to read more carefully without passion, back to the text to see how much emphasis was on it.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:48am

mea culpa you're right, there was a good paragraph.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:48am

mea culpa you're right, there was a good paragraph.

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:51am

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, that was a fair paragraph. Darn that speed reading course or maybe Obama's speech dropped the scales over my eyes. Thanks for that, I'll be more careful next time, not just with someone I admire like JW, but with everyone........

by: iscariot

09-02-2010 @ 12:51am

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, that was a fair paragraph. Darn that speed reading course or maybe Obama's speech dropped the scales over my eyes. Thanks for that, I'll be more careful next time, not just with someone I admire like JW, but with everyone........

by: struthster

09-02-2010 @ 2:12am

But Jim: Dulcet et decorum est pro patria mori!

by: struthster

09-02-2010 @ 2:12am

But Jim: Dulcet et decorum est pro patria mori!

by: John Mulholland

09-02-2010 @ 2:13am

This would have been a lot shorter had Jim simply written "Bush lied, people died."

by: John Mulholland

09-02-2010 @ 2:13am

This would have been a lot shorter had Jim simply written "Bush lied, people died."

by: Ankaboot

09-02-2010 @ 2:55am

With all due respect and affection, Reverend Wallis, your lament shows a misunderstanding or two.

The post-invasion strategy was horribly botched, a complete misunderstanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts was soon revealed.

The post-invasion strategy was based on a complete understanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts, and was executed according to plan. Just as American support of Afghanistan's warlords and opium barons against the Soviet occupation was based on a complete understanding of Afghanistan's religious and ethnic conflicts, leaving behind a set of armed parties that immediately began a multi-party civil war in Afghanistan as planned as soon as the Soviets were out of the way.

And the Taliban put paid to the warlords and opium barons with the support of the people of Afghanistan, and were favored by America's foreign policy architects with grants to aid farmers in planting new crops other than opium when the fields had been burned. Taliban Afghanistan was fine with Washington until they gave the concession for a Caspian Basin oil pipeline to Venezuela instead of an American oil cartel. That pipeline is under construction today.

It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed.

There are websites with pictures of babies and children showing the inherited effects of "depleted" uranium that is still radioactive, from munitions used by American forces during Gulf War I. There will be more generations of such pictures.

No, the results are definitely not worth the cost. That is both a political and a theological statement; but it is primarily a moral judgment - which is exactly what those of us in the faith community are supposed to make about wars.

What you are saying here is that Christians may ~ in your words "are supposed to" ~ decide whether to spread the Good News by the sword. There was nothing whatever "defensive" about the new Caesar's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing. It was pure aggression, and Christian leaders could see that plainly, and rightly condemned it. But the subtext is that Christian leaders might have been able to approve it had it not been so blatantly criminal. That is not what Jesus brought.

Today I feel little celebration in America for the "end" of our combat mission in Iraq.

There are "rumors of war" ~ again on false pretexts that would be illegitimate even were they not false ~ saying that Israel is preparing to attack Iran and that the Saudi government has agreed to allow Israeli air forces to fly over Saudi Arabia on their way to Iran. America, of course, would be expected ~ and by treaty and policy required ~ to come to Israel's aid should Iran retaliate by so much as a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip or south Lebanon.

Oh, wait a minute ~ those aren't "rumors," they're apparently facts.

I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands, even though my primary allegiance is to God.

But where is that "Republic for which it stands"? Caesar and his foreign allies and counselors have carried out their coup long since, elected by votes cast in Presidential, Senatorial, and Congressional elections to the offices from which they orchestrated their takeover.

And how have people "rendered unto Caesar" permission to marry, rights of ownership, freedom of association, free exercise of religion, feeding the hungry, aiding the destitute, and other elements of liberty "protected" by the Constitution from him?

Christians' allegiance is first to God, and should then be to their local congregation, economically self-sustaining to the greatest extent possible, to reduce the capacity of Caesar to determine how everyday life is lived.

But that "Republic for which it stands" is like the Kingdom of Heaven ~ it's another world away. We've let Caesar lock us away in our homes and religious sanctuaries ~ churches and church bake sales and so on ~ and barred ministries from participation in the political life of the nation like the Colonies enjoyed, defended, and preserved when they became States ~ but subsequently lost. How did Caesar acquire the authority to tell people what Jesus asked of them?

We need to re-form ~ to form again ~ the Christian nation that America once was. Caesar has all but erased it from the land.

And when I say "we," I am sure I am speaking for Imam 'Abdur-Ra'uf of Cordoba House and most of the muslims in America, by including us in that "we."

We do not want to "change" America. We want to see it.

by: Ankaboot

09-02-2010 @ 2:55am

With all due respect and affection, Reverend Wallis, your lament shows a misunderstanding or two.

The post-invasion strategy was horribly botched, a complete misunderstanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts was soon revealed.

The post-invasion strategy was based on a complete understanding of Iraq's religious and ethnic conflicts, and was executed according to plan. Just as American support of Afghanistan's warlords and opium barons against the Soviet occupation was based on a complete understanding of Afghanistan's religious and ethnic conflicts, leaving behind a set of armed parties that immediately began a multi-party civil war in Afghanistan as planned as soon as the Soviets were out of the way.

And the Taliban put paid to the warlords and opium barons with the support of the people of Afghanistan, and were favored by America's foreign policy architects with grants to aid farmers in planting new crops other than opium when the fields had been burned. Taliban Afghanistan was fine with Washington until they gave the concession for a Caspian Basin oil pipeline to Venezuela instead of an American oil cartel. That pipeline is under construction today.

It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed.

There are websites with pictures of babies and children showing the inherited effects of "depleted" uranium that is still radioactive, from munitions used by American forces during Gulf War I. There will be more generations of such pictures.

No, the results are definitely not worth the cost. That is both a political and a theological statement; but it is primarily a moral judgment - which is exactly what those of us in the faith community are supposed to make about wars.

What you are saying here is that Christians may ~ in your words "are supposed to" ~ decide whether to spread the Good News by the sword. There was nothing whatever "defensive" about the new Caesar's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nothing. It was pure aggression, and Christian leaders could see that plainly, and rightly condemned it. But the subtext is that Christian leaders might have been able to approve it had it not been so blatantly criminal. That is not what Jesus brought.

Today I feel little celebration in America for the "end" of our combat mission in Iraq.

There are "rumors of war" ~ again on false pretexts that would be illegitimate even were they not false ~ saying that Israel is preparing to attack Iran and that the Saudi government has agreed to allow Israeli air forces to fly over Saudi Arabia on their way to Iran. America, of course, would be expected ~ and by treaty and policy required ~ to come to Israel's aid should Iran retaliate by so much as a rocket fired from the Gaza Strip or south Lebanon.

Oh, wait a minute ~ those aren't "rumors," they're apparently facts.

I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands, even though my primary allegiance is to God.

But where is that "Republic for which it stands"? Caesar and his foreign allies and counselors have carried out their coup long since, elected by votes cast in Presidential, Senatorial, and Congressional elections to the offices from which they orchestrated their takeover.

And how have people "rendered unto Caesar" permission to marry, rights of ownership, freedom of association, free exercise of religion, feeding the hungry, aiding the destitute, and other elements of liberty "protected" by the Constitution from him?

Christians' allegiance is first to God, and should then be to their local congregation, economically self-sustaining to the greatest extent possible, to reduce the capacity of Caesar to determine how everyday life is lived.

But that "Republic for which it stands" is like the Kingdom of Heaven ~ it's another world away. We've let Caesar lock us away in our homes and religious sanctuaries ~ churches and church bake sales and so on ~ and barred ministries from participation in the political life of the nation like the Colonies enjoyed, defended, and preserved when they became States ~ but subsequently lost. How did Caesar acquire the authority to tell people what Jesus asked of them?

We need to re-form ~ to form again ~ the Christian nation that America once was. Caesar has all but erased it from the land.

And when I say "we," I am sure I am speaking for Imam 'Abdur-Ra'uf of Cordoba House and most of the muslims in America, by including us in that "we."

We do not want to "change" America. We want to see it.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 5:55am

It appears that you did not read the Wallis posting above? The seventh paragraph reads: "As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."
Not one word about the cost to Iraqis? Please read again.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 5:55am

It appears that you did not read the Wallis posting above? The seventh paragraph reads: "As people of faith or moral conscience, we must also consider the cost to the Iraqis. Even conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian causalities are now over 100,000 with some estimates peaking over 1.3 million. It's sad that there were no websites I could find with their pictures. But just imagine them and all the families and children whose lives will be forever changed."
Not one word about the cost to Iraqis? Please read again.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 6:02am

A couple of sites with pictures of Iraqi war casualties:
http://www.progressiveaustin.org/iraqivic.htm
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
Not pleasant . . . but very real.

by: kingtut13

09-02-2010 @ 6:02am

A couple of sites with pictures of Iraqi war casualties:
http://www.progressiveaustin.org/iraqivic.htm
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
Not pleasant . . . but very real.

by: squeaky

09-02-2010 @ 6:17am

Someone already pointed it out and the mistake has been acknowledged by iscariot.

by: squeaky

09-02-2010 @ 6:17am

Someone already pointed it out and the mistake has been acknowledged by iscariot.

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:01pm

America is what we choose to make it. First we need to be fully informed; not to inflame or judge but to have paradigm shifts that will inform future decisions. I for one have always believed I'm hearing only what is intended to be heard.

My problem in the past was that I bought into the idea that a "Christian" nation, could not do anything wrong. That my friend, is how indoctrination works.

That indoctrination comes in many political, ideological and fundamental stripes. As all Christians are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. But human nature is all the same and as we are all humans, we are all capable of the worst and best of behavior.

May we then judge righteously, with God's ideals in mind. Social justice, care for widows, orphans, and the stranger amongst us, love of our neighbors as we ourselves wish to be loved. May we know God intimately and show the fruit that is evident. LOVE

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:01pm

America is what we choose to make it. First we need to be fully informed; not to inflame or judge but to have paradigm shifts that will inform future decisions. I for one have always believed I'm hearing only what is intended to be heard.

My problem in the past was that I bought into the idea that a "Christian" nation, could not do anything wrong. That my friend, is how indoctrination works.

That indoctrination comes in many political, ideological and fundamental stripes. As all Christians are not the same, all Muslims are not the same. But human nature is all the same and as we are all humans, we are all capable of the worst and best of behavior.

May we then judge righteously, with God's ideals in mind. Social justice, care for widows, orphans, and the stranger amongst us, love of our neighbors as we ourselves wish to be loved. May we know God intimately and show the fruit that is evident. LOVE

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:33pm

One of my all time favorite passages is Isaiah 58. The word is truly our yardstick to measure how we're doing following God's desires for us.

The outward manifestations of drawing close to Lord with our mouths and visible displays of demonstrations, flag waving and church attendance, as well as fasting, and bible reading can only be seen as correct when it results in true repentance.

True repentance according to Isaiah 58 is:
Stop the exploitation of workers
Stop quarreling and strife
Loose the chains of injustice
Set the oppressed free
Break every yoke
Share food with the hungry
Provide the poor and the wanderer with shelter
Clothe the naked
Care for our own flesh and blood
Stop malicious talk and pointing of fingers

Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer. His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.

How exciting to know it isn't a mystery but clearly spelled out for us to know and follow the revealed will of God and to know that our actions will result in blessings.

by: liberalinlove

09-02-2010 @ 7:33pm

One of my all time favorite passages is Isaiah 58. The word is truly our yardstick to measure how we're doing following God's desires for us.

The outward manifestations of drawing close to Lord with our mouths and visible displays of demonstrations, flag waving and church attendance, as well as fasting, and bible reading can only be seen as correct when it results in true repentance.

True repentance according to Isaiah 58 is:
Stop the exploitation of workers
Stop quarreling and strife
Loose the chains of injustice
Set the oppressed free
Break every yoke
Share food with the hungry
Provide the poor and the wanderer with shelter
Clothe the naked
Care for our own flesh and blood
Stop malicious talk and pointing of fingers

Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer. His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.

How exciting to know it isn't a mystery but clearly spelled out for us to know and follow the revealed will of God and to know that our actions will result in blessings.

by: grazorblade

09-02-2010 @ 9:31pm

incidentally i read isaiah 58 yesterday morning one of my favorite passages

by: grazorblade

09-02-2010 @ 9:31pm

incidentally i read isaiah 58 yesterday morning one of my favorite passages

by: Me and Me

09-06-2010 @ 5:55pm

Jim, I call bogus, at least for the US Christian church, when you discuss "Christian leaders and churches are supposed to ask the hardest questions about it. And many did about the war in Iraq. Let's remember the fact today that most Christian leaders and churches around the world rejected the arguments for America going to war against Iraq and opposed the U.S. invasion and occupation."

Let's not whitewash the past. The US church was almost completely silent, marching quietly along with the Republican leadership - the church (especially the more fundamentalist elements of the church) had too much invested in the Republican party to do otherwise. In fact, the people protesting the war were labeled traitors, anti-American, terrorist-sympathizers, etc. by the Right/Republicans and no one from the church did anything to change or challenge that perception. Sure, there were some christians in the mix protesting, but the church leadership and the majority of christians, did nothing - silence being acceptance - essentially supporting and encouraging the start of the war. The leadership completely failed to ask any difficult or hard questions, at least publicly.

The church in other countries did protest loudly and marched, but the US church has made more noise about "protecting marriage, gays, and abortion" than it ever did on the US going to war for the second time with Iraq.

And then when the US policy of torture came to light, again, the church was eerily silent... and is still silent. Has the church called for inquiries, investigations, justice, and the END to policies of torture? No.

The church failed miserably.

http://wiki.infoshop.org/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)

by: Me and Me

09-06-2010 @ 5:55pm

Jim, I call bogus, at least for the US Christian church, when you discuss "Christian leaders and churches are supposed to ask the hardest questions about it. And many did about the war in Iraq. Let's remember the fact today that most Christian leaders and churches around the world rejected the arguments for America going to war against Iraq and opposed the U.S. invasion and occupation."

Let's not whitewash the past. The US church was almost completely silent, marching quietly along with the Republican leadership - the church (especially the more fundamentalist elements of the church) had too much invested in the Republican party to do otherwise. In fact, the people protesting the war were labeled traitors, anti-American, terrorist-sympathizers, etc. by the Right/Republicans and no one from the church did anything to change or challenge that perception. Sure, there were some christians in the mix protesting, but the church leadership and the majority of christians, did nothing - silence being acceptance - essentially supporting and encouraging the start of the war. The leadership completely failed to ask any difficult or hard questions, at least publicly.

The church in other countries did protest loudly and marched, but the US church has made more noise about "protecting marriage, gays, and abortion" than it ever did on the US going to war for the second time with Iraq.

And then when the US policy of torture came to light, again, the church was eerily silent... and is still silent. Has the church called for inquiries, investigations, justice, and the END to policies of torture? No.

The church failed miserably.

http://wiki.infoshop.org/Global_protests_against_war_on_Iraq_(pre-war)

by: mjeinpenn

09-07-2010 @ 8:55pm

In the words of the Reverend William Sloane Coffin, Jr., former Chaplain of Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church in New York City, "There are two kinds of patriots, two bad and one good. The bad ones are the uncritical lovers and the loveless critics. Good patriots carry on a lover's quarrel with their country, a reflection of God's lover's quarrel with all the world." Thank you, Reverend Wallis, for being a "good patriot." As Christians, we should also be drawn to the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer, who in the end sacrificed his own life in resisting Hitler: "The followers of Christ have been called to peace. . . . And they must not only have peace but make it. To that end they renounce all violence and tumult. In the cause of Christ nothing is to be gained by such methods."

In the case of Iraq, the justification for war was never convincingly made, and all subsequent rationalizations have fallen short morally and ethically. It was not a just war. We attacked a country that posed no imminent threat to the United States. This was not a defensive war or even a legitimately pre-emptive war. Our actions also were disproportional to the perceived harm. Deposing Saddam was one thing; killing more than 100,000 civilians, wounding and maiming hundreds of thousands more, causing widespread destruction, and occupying the nation for seven plus years, was far beyond what anyone anticipated or could ever have been justified. You are absolutely correct, Jim, that Christians were right to oppose this war and the government of the United States was wrong for fighting it.

http://ehlersoneverything.blogspot.com

by: mjeinpenn

09-07-2010 @ 8:55pm

In the words of the Reverend William Sloane Coffin, Jr., former Chaplain of Yale University and Senior Pastor of Riverside Church in New York City, "There are two kinds of patriots, two bad and one good. The bad ones are the uncritical lovers and the loveless critics. Good patriots carry on a lover's quarrel with their country, a reflection of God's lover's quarrel with all the world." Thank you, Reverend Wallis, for being a "good patriot." As Christians, we should also be drawn to the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer, who in the end sacrificed his own life in resisting Hitler: "The followers of Christ have been called to peace. . . . And they must not only have peace but make it. To that end they renounce all violence and tumult. In the cause of Christ nothing is to be gained by such methods."

In the case of Iraq, the justification for war was never convincingly made, and all subsequent rationalizations have fallen short morally and ethically. It was not a just war. We attacked a country that posed no imminent threat to the United States. This was not a defensive war or even a legitimately pre-emptive war. Our actions also were disproportional to the perceived harm. Deposing Saddam was one thing; killing more than 100,000 civilians, wounding and maiming hundreds of thousands more, causing widespread destruction, and occupying the nation for seven plus years, was far beyond what anyone anticipated or could ever have been justified. You are absolutely correct, Jim, that Christians were right to oppose this war and the government of the United States was wrong for fighting it.

http://ehlersoneverything.blogspot.com

by: Amrek

10-08-2010 @ 7:32am

>Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer.<

We would be a ~ creation ~ of THE LIVING. Not the other way around.

>His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.<

Or our front right left below and above!

wassalaam

by: Amrek

10-08-2010 @ 7:32am

>Then and only then will our outward demonstrations be effective and we will be called children of the Living God and will be able to call on the Lord and expect an answer.<

We would be a ~ creation ~ of THE LIVING. Not the other way around.

>His Glory will shine on us and He will be our rear guard.<

Or our front right left below and above!

wassalaam